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General Poker Discussion >> Books and Publications

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Peacedout
newbie


Reged: 08/05/07
Posts: 30
Good horse books?
      #12949413 - 11/14/07 12:46 AM

Hi basically my friend loves to play horse tourneys a lot and his b-day is coming up so i want to get him a good book to help him out some. So i was wondering what book out there is good for all the games. I was looking at SS2 and the full tilt tourney edition. If there are others, what are they and are they any good? Also out of the two i mentioned which do you think is a better book overall for horse tourneys? Thank you for your input

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deacsoftModerator
Carpal \'Tunnel


Reged: 01/29/04
Posts: 5518
Loc: Missing Madison
Re: Good horse books? [Re: Peacedout]
      #12949569 - 11/14/07 12:58 AM

Either of the two you mentioned would be good.

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Gonso
Instant Star


Reged: 04/16/06
Posts: 3265
Loc: seat zero
Re: Good horse books? [Re: deacsoft]
      #12950127 - 11/14/07 01:44 AM

If you wanted to be an extra good friend and buy him a couple books, the following will cover the basics for low limit HORSE games more or less:

Seven Card Stud for Advanced Players
High Low Split Poker for Advanced Players
Small Stakes Hold'em
Sklansky on Poker

This is assuming he has a general idea of how poker tournaments in general are played.

I'm reading the FT tourney book and it's actually pretty decent for the purpose but obviously a little limited since it's scope is so wide.

The high-low book is the best in my opinion, and it covers two HORSE games that a large number of players aren't particularly good at. It's so good I think that if you can only get him 1 book, you might be best going with this one. Yes, it only covers 2 of the games in HORSE, but it's pretty thorough.


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Doc T River
O RLY?


Reged: 09/14/07
Posts: 475
Loc: amongst my tomes
Re: Good horse books? [Re: Gonso]
      #12952646 - 11/14/07 08:14 AM

I am just basing this on the table of contents, but does SS2 even talk about RAZZ to the same extent that SS does? SS2 does not seem to mention RAZZ at all.

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Gonso
Instant Star


Reged: 04/16/06
Posts: 3265
Loc: seat zero
Re: Good horse books? [Re: Doc T River]
      #12952972 - 11/14/07 09:06 AM

SS2 does not have a section on Razz, nor does it have a section on 7 Card Stud. Considering how good Chip Reese's chapter was in SS1 I'm surprised they didn't reprint it.

The razz section of Sklansky on Poker is pretty helpful.


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Screw_u_Guys
newbie


Reged: 11/01/07
Posts: 32
Loc: Netherlands
Re: Good horse books? [Re: Gonso]
      #12971524 - 11/15/07 12:31 PM

I agree with gonso,
I think High low split is the most valuable book you could get your friend, I also play a lot of HORSE and its just unbelievable how bad some players are in these games(especially Stud8)even reading it once should put you ahead of most of the field in low-limit cash games, and if you put some study in to it you can make some serious money with these games.


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*TT*
dresses better than he plays


Reged: 04/28/04
Posts: 17198
Loc: Vehicle Chooser For Life!
Re: Good horse books? [Re: Peacedout]
      #12971628 - 11/15/07 12:39 PM

I play in every HORSE tourny that I come across (with the exception of the 50k WSOP) so I can relate to this thread. There is no book written for HORSE tournys because its a compilation of 5 different games that require five different skillsets. The recommendations in this thread have mostly been good, but if he already plays the cash games well and he just needs help adjusting his limit game to a tourny format than I recommend two books - and he should read them both.

1st - David Sklansky's Tournament Poker for Advanced Players. There is a lot of fluff that he may already know, but as a whole its a fantastic read - especially the hand samples in the back of the book.

2nd - Full Tilt's tournament book. Its pretty good, a few errors here and there and its not that great for a newbie but if your an experienced tournament player who plays the cash games well then this is a great book to add some subtle nuance to his tournament game.


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SGspecial
Doctor Razz


Reged: 08/09/06
Posts: 1209
Loc: Doctor Razz
Re: Good horse books? [Re: *TT*]
      #12972539 - 11/15/07 01:39 PM

Quote:

2nd - Full Tilt's tournament book. Its pretty good, a few errors here and there and its not that great for a newbie but if your an experienced tournament player who plays the cash games well then this is a great book to add some subtle nuance to his tournament game.



QFT


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tangerine
journeyman


Reged: 03/11/07
Posts: 65
Re: Good horse books? [Re: SGspecial]
      #12995256 - 11/16/07 09:36 PM

Hi TT and SGspecial,

may I know which are the errors here and there in FT tourney book?

maybe PM me.

Thanks


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SGspecial
Doctor Razz


Reged: 08/09/06
Posts: 1209
Loc: Doctor Razz
Re: Good horse books? [Re: tangerine]
      #12997554 - 11/17/07 01:46 AM

Quote:

Hi TT and SGspecial,

may I know which are the errors here and there in FT tourney book?

maybe PM me.

Thanks



I don't think it's a stretch to say that we may not agree on which points are "mistakes" and which are correct. Then again Huck and Ted didn't agree on every point in the razz chapter, but they both get the job done.


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fraac
old hand


Reged: 10/22/06
Posts: 752
Re: Good horse books? [Re: SGspecial]
      #12999372 - 11/17/07 07:03 AM

What are some points you disagree with? And whose side do you take in the razz discussion? I have the book, it seems a good one, but I'm unfamiliar with many of the games.

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SGspecial
Doctor Razz


Reged: 08/09/06
Posts: 1209
Loc: Doctor Razz
Re: Good horse books? [Re: fraac]
      #12999886 - 11/17/07 09:27 AM

Quote:

What are some points you disagree with? And whose side do you take in the razz discussion? I have the book, it seems a good one, but I'm unfamiliar with many of the games.



I think their most heated argument was over the idea that there are some spots where huck would throw away an A23 starter on 3rd st to limit his variance. The example he gave was a little extreme, but plausible, in that there were 4 or 5 of his out cards showing on the board and the action had been completed, called, and raised before getting to him (implying that the pot would be capped 3 or 4 ways if he chose to play). He didn't want to put in a significant % of his stack when it might show a tiny +EV, but Ted disagreed saying something like he could make a lot of money off of Huck's discards.

I have to side with Huck in this argument. The swings in a limit tournament get large once it gets past level 6 or so and playing huge multiway pots, even with a slight equity edge (which depending on the opponents' holdings an A23 may not even have), is a good way to go bust. You can't just play a tournament like you would a cash game where if you have a 3% edge you don't mind putting in the max allowable number of bets. Also, ignoring tournament issues like this erases some of the skill edge of better players because once the pot is large, plays become more automatic (tho not completely). In fact, I overheard one laggy pro at the WSOP razz event say that his strategy is to jam the pot whenever possible on 3rd or 4th streets specifically in order to cut down the skill edge of his opponents. He may not have known the game all that well, but he certainly knew how to play tournaments and was rewarded with a final table appearance.


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fraac
old hand


Reged: 10/22/06
Posts: 752
Re: Good horse books? [Re: SGspecial]
      #13000099 - 11/17/07 10:09 AM

Quote:

Quote:

What are some points you disagree with? And whose side do you take in the razz discussion? I have the book, it seems a good one, but I'm unfamiliar with many of the games.



I think their most heated argument was over the idea that there are some spots where huck would throw away an A23 starter on 3rd st to limit his variance. The example he gave was a little extreme, but plausible, in that there were 4 or 5 of his out cards showing on the board and the action had been completed, called, and raised before getting to him (implying that the pot would be capped 3 or 4 ways if he chose to play). He didn't want to put in a significant % of his stack when it might show a tiny +EV, but Ted disagreed saying something like he could make a lot of money off of Huck's discards.

I have to side with Huck in this argument. The swings in a limit tournament get large once it gets past level 6 or so and playing huge multiway pots, even with a slight equity edge (which depending on the opponents' holdings an A23 may not even have), is a good way to go bust. You can't just play a tournament like you would a cash game where if you have a 3% edge you don't mind putting in the max allowable number of bets. Also, ignoring tournament issues like this erases some of the skill edge of better players because once the pot is large, plays become more automatic (tho not completely). In fact, I overheard one laggy pro at the WSOP razz event say that his strategy is to jam the pot whenever possible on 3rd or 4th streets specifically in order to cut down the skill edge of his opponents. He may not have known the game all that well, but he certainly knew how to play tournaments and was rewarded with a final table appearance.



I see. This is why I like Tournament Poker for Advanced Players, it has good examples about edge at various stages of the tournament.


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Gonso
Instant Star


Reged: 04/16/06
Posts: 3265
Loc: seat zero
Re: Good horse books? [Re: fraac]
      #13028991 - 11/19/07 12:47 PM

Doctor Razz,

Plz be the hurry with more razz videos as I somehow still suck at it


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SGspecial
Doctor Razz


Reged: 08/09/06
Posts: 1209
Loc: Doctor Razz
Re: Good horse books? [Re: Gonso]
      #13030182 - 11/19/07 02:15 PM

Quote:

Doctor Razz,

Plz be the hurry with more razz videos as I somehow still suck at it



Gonso,

There's a new one up today, and another in postproduction. I'm working on building up the library quickly, but in the meantime try this with the existing vids: watch, rinse, repeat.


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Doc T River
O RLY?


Reged: 09/14/07
Posts: 475
Loc: amongst my tomes
Re: Good horse books? [Re: SGspecial]
      #13209703 - 12/02/07 12:55 AM

The best Horse book is the one by Mr. Ed Wilbur.

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