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General Poker Discussion >> Poker Beats, Brags, and Variance

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SL__72
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Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes
      #12541923 - 10/17/07 12:33 PM

I think its time for a new thread, if not, feel free to lock this.

A lot of this is copy/pasted from Josem's last cliffnotes, so thanks Josem for those.

Previous thread here:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1

Short version:
There is almost indisputable proof that users at AP were cheating by somehow viewing the whole cards of their opponents. Some information has come out that indicates an AP employee or ex-employee may have been involved. There is further evidence that it may be ex-owner, Scott Tom.

Long version:

1) During a tournament played by cheater 'Potripper,' the person who ended up coming second ("Marco") thought he was cheated. He emailed Absolute, and they sent him a hand history file - an XLS file.

2) Marco opened up this file, it seemed all gibberish to him, and he didn't think anything of it.

3) First Absolute Poker scandal blow up - PT screenshots, etc. Graphical representation here: http://www.absolutepokercheats.com/vpipvbb.jpg

4) Fortnight passes

5) In passing discussion, Marco mentions he has this file. He shares it with a few people, including N 80 50 24(pokerdb.com maintainer, maker of The Poker Film, part owner of Bluff Media) who analyses what is in this file

6) Nat (N 80 50 24) & 2p2 poster Snagglepuss discover that this file is a complete hand history for the tournament - showing every table, and all hole cards of every player.

Hand histories here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=0&fpart=1
Youtube video of hands being replayed here

Quote:

Also, for the straight dope on how this we got to this point, check out N825024's blog at http://www.natarem.com/.




7)In further analysis of the spreadsheet, Nat and Snagglepuss determine that the IP address, user number and email address of observers has been documented.

8)In 7, they determine that an account with user number 363 observes Potripper's table from 2 minutes into the tournament until the end.

9) At the start of the tournament, for the two hands that user #363 is not observing the table, Potripper folds preflop. He doesn't fold another hand pre-flop for 20minutes, when he open-folds with KK held by a player behind him.

10) They also discover another observer, with the same IP (in San Jose, Costa Rica), with a different user number and the email address scott@rivieraltd.com, observing another table for a short period of time.

11) It is speculated that 10 could be Potripper's user account.

12) It was determined that the domain rivieraltd.com was pointing to a mail server which happened to be on an IP allocated to Absolute Entertainment SA, at Mohawk Internet Technologies' data center.

12.5) Shortly (within an hour or two) after the findings in 12 are posted here, the DNS information for rivieraltd.com is deleted.

13)The IP associated with the observer in #10 turns out to be a residential cable modem registered to Scott Tom, AP's President as of 2005.

14)Mason weighs in on things here:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=12536144&page=0&vc=1

15)Absolute sends an email to one player saying they will undergo a formal audit from gamingassociates.com here:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=12537406&page=0&vc=1. AP also claims Scott Tom has not been employed by AP for over a year, although he's made posts on 2+2 spamming for AP as recently as June of this year.

16) Steven D. Levitt posts about this story on his NY Times blog for the second time:
First post
New post

10/17 update:

The Potripper account belongs to AJ Green, former Director of Operations at AP and Scott Tom's best friend. AJ Green is currently VP of operations at nine.com.


If I've missed anything important, let me know.

Edited by adanthar (10/17/07 09:15 PM)


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Vavavoom
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Reged: 10/26/04
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: SL__72]
      #12541987 - 10/17/07 12:39 PM

Awesome cliff notes...

Although, it involves a lot of clicking....you got all the main points !


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poker1O1
Pooh-Bah


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Vavavoom]
      #12542068 - 10/17/07 12:46 PM

nice job. The word is really spreading. Anyone know what's next?

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Zach Belden
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: poker1O1]
      #12542094 - 10/17/07 12:48 PM

wait, people try to cheat in poker?

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Dilznoofus
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Zach Belden]
      #12542112 - 10/17/07 12:50 PM

Quote:

wait, people try to cheat in poker?




Is this supposed to be funny? Can't we stop this already?


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ama0330
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: poker1O1]
      #12542140 - 10/17/07 12:52 PM

very nice, excellent for those of us who dont want to trawl through the other thread. ty

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Oink
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Zach Belden]
      #12542217 - 10/17/07 12:57 PM

Quote:

wait, people try to cheat in poker?




Ban please!

Some of us are actually trying to keep up with this.


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KurtSF
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: ama0330]
      #12542316 - 10/17/07 01:04 PM

13 1/2) The IP address that this 'other' account was logged in from was traced to the home cable modem of Scott Tom, CEO of Absolute poker. scott@rivieraltd.com is apparently the CEO, and is also possibly (not certain) POTRIPPER.

15 1/2) The email contained a claim by Absolute that Scott Tom has not been associated with AP for over a year.


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GroundFloor
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: SL__72]
      #12542326 - 10/17/07 01:04 PM

let's do this...

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NoMeansYes_
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: KurtSF]
      #12542371 - 10/17/07 01:08 PM

So what happens next? What action is taken against Scott Tom and how long has this been going on?

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KurtSF
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: NoMeansYes_]
      #12542411 - 10/17/07 01:11 PM

Also, for the straight dope on how this we got to this point, check out N825024's blog at http://www.natarem.com/.

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SL__72
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: KurtSF]
      #12542421 - 10/17/07 01:12 PM

13.5: I don't believe there is any proof that the scott@rivieraltd.com/363 IP belonged to Scott Tom. There is strong evidence that suggests it belongs to a residential cable modem in San Jose, but I don't know that we can assume any more then that at this point. It is believed to be Scott Tom because:

Rivieraltd.com was linked to AP.
The email address is Scott@.
Forum posts made by users believed to be Scott Tom have also been made from San Jose on this forum and casinomeister.com.

If I'm wrong about this I can update the OP.

15.5: I figured the email was worth reading so I just linked to it instead of trying to pick out a few points.


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SenatorKevin
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: KurtSF]
      #12542439 - 10/17/07 01:12 PM

If you guys have an account on digg, it wouldn't hurt to digg the blog story on the NYTimes. We need a bunch of diggs for it to make it to the front page.

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open


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SL__72
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: KurtSF]
      #12542473 - 10/17/07 01:14 PM

Quote:

Also, for the straight dope on how this we got to this point, check out N825024's blog at http://www.natarem.com/.




Hmm, I can't edit the OP anymore. Could a mod edit this link into it? Maybe after the link to the Youtube video?


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hasugopher
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: SenatorKevin]
      #12542488 - 10/17/07 01:15 PM

good summary, I hope some more stuff comes out soon though because things seem to have slowed down recently (last 12-18 hrs or so). Maybe I'm just being a nit.

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KurtSF
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: SL__72]
      #12542528 - 10/17/07 01:19 PM

Quote:

13.5: I don't believe there is any proof that the [Email]scott@rivieraltd.com/363[/Email] IP belonged to Scott Tom. There is strong evidence that suggests it belongs to a residential cable modem in San Jose, but I don't know that we can assume any more then that at this point. It is believed to be Scott Tom because:





The post from adanthar.

Quote:

Exciting implications incoming:

If you guys remember, there were two people watching Potripper's table. One is #363; the other is assumed to be Potripper. That second account's email address is [Email]scott@rivieraltd.com.[/Email]

I have talked to a lot of people around the poker world about the IP address used by #363 and the rivieraltd.com email. The IP address cross-references to someone named Scott Tom, who also appears to be an owner at AP. It should also be noted that the first part of the rivieraltd.com email is "scott@".

edited post to be clearer




Because its Scott Tom's IP address.


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gbporkpie
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: hasugopher]
      #12542574 - 10/17/07 01:22 PM

Longest cliff notes ever. Nice job though.

Exactly why are these AP threads at BBV?

Edit: Also, the Freakonomics guy (Levitt) weighing in on this is pretty big, isn't it? He has a ton of readers, no doubt.

Edited by gbporkpie (10/17/07 01:26 PM)


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SL__72
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: KurtSF]
      #12542650 - 10/17/07 01:27 PM

Yeah I read that but since I didn't understand how he knew that, I guess I kind of wrote it off as "evidence" instead of "fact."

And like I said, I can't edit the OP anymore


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egj
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: SL__72]
      #12542651 - 10/17/07 01:27 PM

Quote:

13.5: I don't believe there is any proof that the [Email]scott@rivieraltd.com/363[/Email] IP belonged to Scott Tom. There is strong evidence that suggests it belongs to a residential cable modem in San Jose, but I don't know that we can assume any more then that at this point. It is believed to be Scott Tom because:

Rivieraltd.com was linked to AP.
The email address is [Email]Scott@.[/Email]
Forum posts made by users believed to be Scott Tom have also been made from San Jose on this forum and casinomeister.com.




From Nate's blog:

Quote:

2+2 moderator Adanthar found that the IP address was used by a 2+2 account with the login name scotttom.




So there is a very direct link between account #363 and the name "Scott Tom".


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hasugopher
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: gbporkpie]
      #12542653 - 10/17/07 01:27 PM

Quote:

Longest cliff notes ever. Nice job though.

Exactly why are these AP threads at BBV?



This has been posted in a lot of forums and in a lot of different places. It just seems that we (BBV) really took off with it, and now we are attracting other people in here. Just my observation.


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adantharModerator
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: hasugopher]
      #12542690 - 10/17/07 01:29 PM

Slightly updated to reflect the Scott Tom thing.

Also, stay tuned, more will certainly come out today.


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Berky
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: ama0330]
      #12542886 - 10/17/07 01:41 PM

Quote:

very nice, excellent for those of us who dont want to trawl through the other thread. ty




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GildwulfModerator
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Berky]
      #12542894 - 10/17/07 01:41 PM

I dugg it

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Ratamahatta
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12543004 - 10/17/07 01:48 PM

Nice job, thanks. It's very hard to follow the drama when 100 posts a minute are being made.

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iron81
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12543115 - 10/17/07 01:56 PM

I might have missed it, but I'm curious about where Adanthar originally heard that #363 = Scott Tom. Is this person someone he trusts and has the IP address from the excel sheets been matched somewhere besides Adanthar's contact like from 2+2 posts.

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flight2q
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: SL__72]
      #12543146 - 10/17/07 01:58 PM

ammbo:
Quote:


That letter from AP looks like a prelude to damage control. They distance themselves from Scott Tom (mentioning him by name) and go on to say there is no way anyone can see hole cards in real time.




The thing that bothers me about each statement AP makes is the possible evasiveness. They don't actually say that it's not possible to see the hole cards in real time. They just say that the game client won't let the players see cards they're not entitled to see. Also, they say there are no "superaccounts", but that could mean merely that there are no accounts with both playing privileges and card viewing privileges.


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The Funky Llama
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: flight2q]
      #12543152 - 10/17/07 01:59 PM

has anyone else ever got an excel sheet like this from AP?

Particularly, anyone that has played graycat? If user 363 was also observing everytime graycat (or doubledrag) played, then that would be pretty damning.


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adantharModerator
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: iron81]
      #12543172 - 10/17/07 02:00 PM

Quote:

I might have missed it, but I'm curious about where Adanthar originally heard that #363 = Scott Tom. Is this person someone he trusts




yes

Quote:

has the IP address from the excel sheets been matched somewhere besides Adanthar's contact like from 2+2 posts.




not directly since that'd be damn near impossible to do. however, the watchdog was busy proving me right at CM yesterday (notice how he hasn't posted since I called him out?)


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1p0kerboy
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: flight2q]
      #12543179 - 10/17/07 02:01 PM

I would include the fact that AP looked into the matter, including the tournament that we now have the complete hand history for, and then released a statement saying that they found no evidence of cheating.

Either they are:

1. Dumber than my eight year old.
2. Assisting in the cover-up.


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The Funky Llama
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: The Funky Llama]
      #12543194 - 10/17/07 02:03 PM

maybe everyone who has played with graycat or doubledrag should request hand histories to see if they can get an excel file like this.

You'd think that absolute would have corrected whatever mistake caused them to send out the file -- but they are incompetent beyond belief.


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Pokeraddict
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: 1p0kerboy]
      #12543201 - 10/17/07 02:03 PM

To answer somebody in the other thread, 2+2 does not advertise AP anyway so it's a non issue.

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Xander
member


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Pokeraddict]
      #12543247 - 10/17/07 02:06 PM

dugg

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The 13th 4postle
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Xander]
      #12543305 - 10/17/07 02:11 PM

I like the email for handhistories idea, because in the NY Times blog he mentions that someone might be a hero at AP and is helping us out by sending the master hand histories. So if you have ever played with any of the suspected accounts, SEND THEM AN EMAIL. We might get lucky again.

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_Gabe_
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: The 13th 4postle]
      #12543335 - 10/17/07 02:13 PM

Quote:

I like the email for handhistories idea, because in the NY Times blog he mentions that someone might be a hero at AP and is helping us out by sending the master hand histories. So if you have ever played with any of the suspected accounts, SEND THEM AN EMAIL. We might get lucky again.




I've requested HH's from the 1K tournies I've played at AP and gotten no response. They might be locking down the info.


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abvhi
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: _Gabe_]
      #12543383 - 10/17/07 02:16 PM

Reguarding people asking if so called "superuser" accounts (in the last thread) exist on other sites, the unfortunate fact is all that is required is access to the right database with the right read permissions. you do not even need to be logged into said site per se. This is why the fact that the site was currently under monthly audits is so sad.

My suggestion to the community is to get nate or one of the other detectives and/or a vocal and popular poker spokesman to get on friggen CNN (and talk to that NYT reporter) and talk about the story, while pointing out this is one incident done by a criminal who started and built that particular company, excuse me, alledgedly( sp?!). Speaking on good points of other card rooms. And hopefully mentioning the fact the best way to stop this is to legalize poker in the States.

You really must get a proponent of poker on tv before the people who add spin and drama to it for their own profit get to it. This story will blow, it will be huge, it will get there eventually no matter what. It will be used against online poker. That is a fact.

However right now we hold the advantage...


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vandyhawk
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: abvhi]
      #12543451 - 10/17/07 02:22 PM

Here's a post by "jacktipper" from P5's. I'll preface it by saying that this user name just registered today:

Wow - how shady is this. Scott Tom isn't the CEO of AP, he's the CEO of the company that owns AP and UB. I for one know he's still involved with the company business of BOTH sites.

Keep in mind, the people that own this site are 20-somethings, who are rich, living in a country with no rules (Costa Rica)... I'm just surprised it's taken so long for someone to get caught.

So - how bad is it in AP's ***official*** release that they lie and try to coverup that Scott hasn't been a part of the company.

Wow...


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so sick bro
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: vandyhawk]
      #12543478 - 10/17/07 02:24 PM

Quote:

Here's a post by "jacktipper" from P5's. I'll preface it by saying that this user name just registered today:

Wow - how shady is this. Scott Tom isn't the CEO of AP, he's the CEO of the company that owns AP and UB. I for one know he's still involved with the company business of BOTH sites.

Keep in mind, the people that own this site are 20-somethings, who are rich, living in a country with no rules (Costa Rica)... I'm just surprised it's taken so long for someone to get caught.

So - how bad is it in AP's ***official*** release that they lie and try to coverup that Scott hasn't been a part of the company.

Wow...




this is very good if it can be proved


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N 82 50 24
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: The 13th 4postle]
      #12543497 - 10/17/07 02:26 PM

Quote:

I like the email for handhistories idea, because in the NY Times blog he mentions that someone might be a hero at AP and is helping us out by sending the master hand histories. So if you have ever played with any of the suspected accounts, SEND THEM AN EMAIL. We might get lucky again.



A confidential source told me that the guy is no longer with the company.

But maybe someone else is willing to send this stuff out.


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whangarei
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: KurtSF]
      #12543614 - 10/17/07 02:36 PM

Just skimming through the comments on the Freakonomics blog. I was both depressed by and encouraged by the number of people who are not convinced that cheating occurred. They may never be convinced, since it takes some thought and good poker knowledge to see it. This is depressing as anything that keeps people from seeing the truth is depressing. It's encouraging because I would hate to see a public overreaction that all online poker is rigged.

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SenatorKevin
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: whangarei]
      #12543625 - 10/17/07 02:37 PM

54 diggs and counting...

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open


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N 82 50 24
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: N 82 50 24]
      #12543640 - 10/17/07 02:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I like the email for handhistories idea, because in the NY Times blog he mentions that someone might be a hero at AP and is helping us out by sending the master hand histories. So if you have ever played with any of the suspected accounts, SEND THEM AN EMAIL. We might get lucky again.



A confidential source told me that the guy is no longer with the company.

But maybe someone else is willing to send this stuff out.



BTW, I was told that by two separate confidential sources, both of whom did not want to post on their names. I trust both of them.


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ammbo
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: N 82 50 24]
      #12543643 - 10/17/07 02:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I like the email for handhistories idea, because in the NY Times blog he mentions that someone might be a hero at AP and is helping us out by sending the master hand histories. So if you have ever played with any of the suspected accounts, SEND THEM AN EMAIL. We might get lucky again.



A confidential source told me that the guy is no longer with the company.

But maybe someone else is willing to send this stuff out.




To clarify, you are saying the guy is no longer with the company as of very recently? And because of this situation? Feel free to not elaborate, you have divulged plenty.


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goofyballer
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: SenatorKevin]
      #12543655 - 10/17/07 02:39 PM

Quote:

If you guys have an account on digg, it wouldn't hurt to digg the blog story on the NYTimes. We need a bunch of diggs for it to make it to the front page.

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open




QFT, all you have to do is register a Digg account (free, ez, fast) and then click a button on the site and that will help get this story out to a ton of people. It only has 56 diggs right now when there are clearly way more people than that reading this thread.


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SenatorKevin
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: whangarei]
      #12543659 - 10/17/07 02:40 PM

Quote:

Just skimming through the comments on the Freakonomics blog. I was both depressed by and encouraged by the number of people who are not convinced that cheating occurred. They may never be convinced, since it takes some thought and good poker knowledge to see it. This is depressing as anything that keeps people from seeing the truth is depressing. It's encouraging because I would hate to see a public overreaction that all online poker is rigged.




Yeah, a person left this comment on digg. "Most claims that online poker is rigged are ridiculous and have no basis in facts. I don't understand how after looking at the hand histories and other relevant info any poker player could try and dispute the claim that cheating has occurred here."

Utterly ridiculous. This is what you call an argument through ignorance. Very annoying.


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SGspecial
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: 1p0kerboy]
      #12543672 - 10/17/07 02:40 PM

Quote:

I would include the fact that AP looked into the matter, including the tournament that we now have the complete hand history for, and then released a statement saying that they found no evidence of cheating.

Either they are:

1. Dumber than my eight year old.
2. Assisting in the cover-up.




History is littered with criminals who came up with ingenious ways to cheat or steal, and then came up with the most brain dead mistakes to get caught. There is simply no reason to believe this affair is any different. As for the excel file containing evidence against Scott Tom specifically, you have to ask yourself was this simply another AP support blunder, an "I, robot" style breadcrumb sent by an employee with a conscience, or a "Sherlock Holmes" style red herring.


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yeknod
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: so sick bro]
      #12543680 - 10/17/07 02:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Here's a post by "jacktipper" from P5's. I'll preface it by saying that this user name just registered today:

Wow - how shady is this. Scott Tom isn't the CEO of AP, he's the CEO of the company that owns AP and UB. I for one know he's still involved with the company business of BOTH sites.

Keep in mind, the people that own this site are 20-somethings, who are rich, living in a country with no rules (Costa Rica)... I'm just surprised it's taken so long for someone to get caught.

So - how bad is it in AP's ***official*** release that they lie and try to coverup that Scott hasn't been a part of the company.

Wow...




this is very good if it can be proved




Yeah this seems like the logical next point to investigate. If it can be shown that Scott Tom is currently/or was during the last year year still involved with AP, their latest press release would be a proven lie, and it would implicate Mark Seif who posted said release in his blog. Since he, as a partowner, certainly should know whether Scott Tom still is/was involved with AP.


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albedoa
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: SenatorKevin]
      #12543699 - 10/17/07 02:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Just skimming through the comments on the Freakonomics blog. I was both depressed by and encouraged by the number of people who are not convinced that cheating occurred. They may never be convinced, since it takes some thought and good poker knowledge to see it. This is depressing as anything that keeps people from seeing the truth is depressing. It's encouraging because I would hate to see a public overreaction that all online poker is rigged.




Yeah, a person left this comment on digg. "Most claims that online poker is rigged are ridiculous and have no basis in facts. I don't understand how after looking at the hand histories and other relevant info any poker player could try and dispute the claim that cheating has occurred here."

Utterly ridiculous. This is what you call an argument through ignorance. Very annoying.




I think you misread the comment. He is saying that despite all the bogus claims, this one is incredibly obvious.


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Kimbell175113
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: SenatorKevin]
      #12543700 - 10/17/07 02:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Just skimming through the comments on the Freakonomics blog. I was both depressed by and encouraged by the number of people who are not convinced that cheating occurred. They may never be convinced, since it takes some thought and good poker knowledge to see it. This is depressing as anything that keeps people from seeing the truth is depressing. It's encouraging because I would hate to see a public overreaction that all online poker is rigged.




Yeah, a person left this comment on digg. "Most claims that online poker is rigged are ridiculous and have no basis in facts. I don't understand how after looking at the hand histories and other relevant info any poker player could try and dispute the claim that cheating has occurred here."

Utterly ridiculous. This is what you call an argument through ignorance. Very annoying.



Wait, the comment you quoted is 100% correct. Maybe you misread the last sentence with it's multiple negatives, but it's not wrong.


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Kimbell175113
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Kimbell175113]
      #12543713 - 10/17/07 02:44 PM

Also, everyone please digg the story. It's super easy, I just registered and did it.

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Dilznoofus
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: whangarei]
      #12543718 - 10/17/07 02:44 PM

Quote:

Just skimming through the comments on the Freakonomics blog. I was both depressed by and encouraged by the number of people who are not convinced that cheating occurred. They may never be convinced, since it takes some thought and good poker knowledge to see it. This is depressing as anything that keeps people from seeing the truth is depressing. It's encouraging because I would hate to see a public overreaction that all online poker is rigged.




At least one of the "skeptics" is probably an AP shill:

"I hear you - the claims and accusations are serious for all poker players, and so is the concept of someone being able to hack the system to gain some kind of advantage over fellow players - however i still believe having absorbed all the evidence being argued that given Absolute Poker has been audited in the past and is prepared to go through the process again with an apparently legit 3rd party - surely we wait to see if it is possible for someone to hack the system and cheat and allow the media companies they mention to offer all of us a fair explanation? And until this is complete all of the evidence being used by forum posters is purely circumstantial and doesn’t prove beyond reasonable doubt that anyone was able to hack the system and cheat.
I’m sure you know well that poker isn’t just about stats - so if luck and strategy didn’t have anything to do with the game - why would millions of people worldwide have poker as their prime recreation?

— Posted by jeffery smythe"

Sounds like PR script.

Edited by Dilznoofus (10/17/07 02:47 PM)


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SenatorKevin
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Kimbell175113]
      #12543731 - 10/17/07 02:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Just skimming through the comments on the Freakonomics blog. I was both depressed by and encouraged by the number of people who are not convinced that cheating occurred. They may never be convinced, since it takes some thought and good poker knowledge to see it. This is depressing as anything that keeps people from seeing the truth is depressing. It's encouraging because I would hate to see a public overreaction that all online poker is rigged.




Yeah, a person left this comment on digg. "Most claims that online poker is rigged are ridiculous and have no basis in facts. I don't understand how after looking at the hand histories and other relevant info any poker player could try and dispute the claim that cheating has occurred here."

Utterly ridiculous. This is what you call an argument through ignorance. Very annoying.



Wait, the comment you quoted is 100% correct. Maybe you misread the last sentence with it's multiple negatives, but it's not wrong.




Ugh, yeah. I misread it.


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adantharModerator
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: ammbo]
      #12543750 - 10/17/07 02:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I like the email for handhistories idea, because in the NY Times blog he mentions that someone might be a hero at AP and is helping us out by sending the master hand histories. So if you have ever played with any of the suspected accounts, SEND THEM AN EMAIL. We might get lucky again.



A confidential source told me that the guy is no longer with the company.

But maybe someone else is willing to send this stuff out.




To clarify, you are saying the guy is no longer with the company as of very recently? And because of this situation? Feel free to not elaborate, you have divulged plenty.




Take a wild guess...

meanwhile, more breaking news, from sources at AP that will remain nameless:

The Potripper account belongs to AJ Green, former Director of Operations at AP and Scott Tom's best friend. AJ Green is currently VP of operations at nine.com.


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Mrage
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: goofyballer]
      #12543763 - 10/17/07 02:48 PM

Dugg it. Perhaps we should get it put up on Slashdot as well? (I don't know much about slashdot aside from the fact that they are somewhat similar)

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Clayton
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12543768 - 10/17/07 02:48 PM

.

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albedoa
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12543769 - 10/17/07 02:48 PM

Quote:

The Potripper account belongs to AJ Green, former Director of Operations at AP and Scott Tom's best friend. AJ Green is currently VP of operations at nine.com.




What. The. [censored]. How deep will this go?

Adanthar: Is it possible to give SL__72 permanent editing rights of the OP so that he can keep adding stuff as it comes up?

Edited by adanthar (10/17/07 02:50 PM)


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Dilznoofus
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12543779 - 10/17/07 02:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I like the email for handhistories idea, because in the NY Times blog he mentions that someone might be a hero at AP and is helping us out by sending the master hand histories. So if you have ever played with any of the suspected accounts, SEND THEM AN EMAIL. We might get lucky again.



A confidential source told me that the guy is no longer with the company.

But maybe someone else is willing to send this stuff out.




To clarify, you are saying the guy is no longer with the company as of very recently? And because of this situation? Feel free to not elaborate, you have divulged plenty.




Take a wild guess...

meanwhile, more breaking news, from sources at AP that will remain nameless:

The Potripper account belongs to AJ Green, former Director of Operations at AP and Scott Tom's best friend. AJ Green is currently VP of operations at nine.com.




head asplode

Edited by adanthar (10/17/07 02:50 PM)


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N 82 50 24
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: ammbo]
      #12543785 - 10/17/07 02:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I like the email for handhistories idea, because in the NY Times blog he mentions that someone might be a hero at AP and is helping us out by sending the master hand histories. So if you have ever played with any of the suspected accounts, SEND THEM AN EMAIL. We might get lucky again.



A confidential source told me that the guy is no longer with the company.

But maybe someone else is willing to send this stuff out.




To clarify, you are saying the guy is no longer with the company as of very recently? And because of this situation? Feel free to not elaborate, you have divulged plenty.



I don't know when it happened. I have a lot of people emailing me info, but not all of it is complete. A lot of them work for AP or live in Costa Rica, so they don't want to expose themselves.


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hotbacon
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12543789 - 10/17/07 02:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I like the email for handhistories idea, because in the NY Times blog he mentions that someone might be a hero at AP and is helping us out by sending the master hand histories. So if you have ever played with any of the suspected accounts, SEND THEM AN EMAIL. We might get lucky again.



A confidential source told me that the guy is no longer with the company.

But maybe someone else is willing to send this stuff out.




To clarify, you are saying the guy is no longer with the company as of very recently? And because of this situation? Feel free to not elaborate, you have divulged plenty.




Take a wild guess...

meanwhile, more breaking news, from sources at AP that will remain nameless:

The Potripper account belongs to AJ Green, former Director of Operations at AP and Scott Tom's best friend. AJ Green is currently VP of operations at nine.com.




Wow. Just wow.

Edited by adanthar (10/17/07 02:50 PM)


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abvhi
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: albedoa]
      #12543813 - 10/17/07 02:51 PM

Also some pure speculation as to a motive, if you have Scott posting thousands of msgs on sportsbetting forums, maybe he has a bad habit of overbetting or was on a bad streak during times he decided to essentially raid ppls poker accounts.

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adantharModerator
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: abvhi]
      #12543815 - 10/17/07 02:51 PM

edited some posts because Tom Scott != Scott Tom, ldo

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iron81
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12543818 - 10/17/07 02:51 PM



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sixfour
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12543828 - 10/17/07 02:52 PM

Oh boy

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GildwulfModerator
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12543829 - 10/17/07 02:52 PM

wow

I wonder how many other employees at AP will be implicated...


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goofyballer
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12543834 - 10/17/07 02:52 PM

Where'd you get this info? Inside AP?

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baronzeus
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: iron81]
      #12543841 - 10/17/07 02:52 PM

sigh

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ikestoys
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: iron81]
      #12543843 - 10/17/07 02:53 PM

omfg, calling security, how do we know this?

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shaundeeb
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Gildwulf]
      #12543852 - 10/17/07 02:53 PM

serge for mod

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Keepitsimple
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: SenatorKevin]
      #12543856 - 10/17/07 02:54 PM

i wonder how other poker sites feel about this. legit sites that is. they cant be too happy with absolute.

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adantharModerator
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: ikestoys]
      #12543858 - 10/17/07 02:54 PM

Quote:

omfg, calling security, how do we know this?




at this point every single person at AP has read or is reading this thread, figure it out from here


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kitchma
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12543883 - 10/17/07 02:56 PM

whistleblowers FTW!

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shaundeeb
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12543886 - 10/17/07 02:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

omfg, calling security, how do we know this?




at this point every single person at AP has read or is reading this thread, figure it out from here




and every other pokersite


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Clayton
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12543895 - 10/17/07 02:57 PM

one important thing of note is that this new info contradicts Dan Druff's theory, which was sold on the four accounts belonging to players that were inactive in the absolute system for a very long time

the truth proves to be just hilariously dumb.


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N 82 50 24
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: kitchma]
      #12543903 - 10/17/07 02:58 PM

I have at least two sources from inside AP. They have a bunch of leaks.

From talking to Adanthar on AIM, a bunch of people there are talking to him too.


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albedoa
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Clayton]
      #12543912 - 10/17/07 02:58 PM

Quote:

one important thing of note is that this new info contradicts Dan Druff's theory, which was sold on the four accounts belonging to players that were inactive in the absolute system for a very long time

the truth proves to be just hilariously dumb.




It's still possible that they were inactive, just less likely.


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Keepitsimple
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: kitchma]
      #12543913 - 10/17/07 02:59 PM

wow, absolute is going down

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jalexand42
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12543925 - 10/17/07 02:59 PM

Quote:



Take a wild guess...
meanwhile, more breaking news, from sources at AP that will remain nameless:

The Potripper account belongs to AJ Green, former Director of Operations at AP and Scott Tom's best friend. AJ Green is currently VP of operations at nine.com.




Don't you mean 'was' VP of operations at nine.com?

Just wow, they are so dumb.


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fatpipe
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Keepitsimple]
      #12543930 - 10/17/07 03:00 PM

Quote:

wow, absolute is going down




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TheOneWizard
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12543953 - 10/17/07 03:01 PM

This Poker King guy has the story on his front page. I think I've seen him before but I'm not sure.

I think I need to order a pizza. I can't leave my computer.


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ammbo
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: shaundeeb]
      #12543956 - 10/17/07 03:02 PM

Can anyone corroborate that AJ Green is Allan (sp?) Green?

http://www.pokerpages.com/players/profiles/47899/alan-green.htm

Looks like he had a close call recently...

http://www.gambling911.com/031406news.html (scroll to next to last story)


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holland3r
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12543964 - 10/17/07 03:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I like the email for handhistories idea, because in the NY Times blog he mentions that someone might be a hero at AP and is helping us out by sending the master hand histories. So if you have ever played with any of the suspected accounts, SEND THEM AN EMAIL. We might get lucky again.



A confidential source told me that the guy is no longer with the company.

But maybe someone else is willing to send this stuff out.




To clarify, you are saying the guy is no longer with the company as of very recently? And because of this situation? Feel free to not elaborate, you have divulged plenty.




Take a wild guess...

meanwhile, more breaking news, from sources at AP that will remain nameless:

The Potripper account belongs to AJ Green, former Director of Operations at AP and Scott Tom's best friend. AJ Green is currently VP of operations at nine.com.




Absolute [censored]. Absolute security reviews the hands and says that is was just some donkey getting crazy lucky, paying no mind to the fact that said donkey was their former director of operations.

I don't see Absolute Poker surviving this.


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whangarei
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12543968 - 10/17/07 03:02 PM

Quote:

The Potripper account belongs to AJ Green, former Director of Operations at AP and Scott Tom's best friend. AJ Green is currently VP of operations at nine.com.




[censored] scumbags!


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jalexand42
Hypothetical Ubermonkey


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: N 82 50 24]
      #12543979 - 10/17/07 03:03 PM

Quote:

I have at least two sources from inside AP. They have a bunch of leaks.

From talking to Adanthar on AIM, a bunch of people there are talking to him too.




At this point, Absolute's only prayer in the world is to totally come clean, provide restitution, and try to SOMEHOW convince people it's safe to play there.

This is going to just snowball from here. They better take aggressive actions before it does. The typical initial human reaction here is to stonewall, cover up...if they do that, they're killing their company.

I still suspect the chip dumping facet of this means the 'company' as a whole did not know this was happening, not that they are innocent, because they certainly should have PREVENTED it with good system controls.

The other great side effect of this is that you will certainly see other poker sites address their security to ensure none of this [censored] is going on on their own sites.


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so sick bro
old hand


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Keepitsimple]
      #12543982 - 10/17/07 03:03 PM

Quote:

wow, absolute is going down




justice 1 time ftw?


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fnord_too
"gets" sklansky


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Keepitsimple]
      #12544000 - 10/17/07 03:04 PM

wow

This is going to have a huge impact on online poker. Like I said in one of the first threads on this, the other sites need to be in full spin mode. Also, the PPA and other lobbyists need to be spinning this to stress the need for regulation and US providers.


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ikestoys
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: so sick bro]
      #12544001 - 10/17/07 03:04 PM

plz plz plz let my money get out before they shutdown

lezzgo bank transfer, one time


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holland3r
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: N 82 50 24]
      #12544003 - 10/17/07 03:05 PM

Quote:

I have at least two sources from inside AP. They have a bunch of leaks.

From talking to Adanthar on AIM, a bunch of people there are talking to him too.




Glad!


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ammbo
journeyman


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: ammbo]
      #12544006 - 10/17/07 03:05 PM

Classic... AJ Green is quoted in this article as emphasizing the importance of security for players:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2005_Nov_7/ai_n15778705


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estoysinblanca
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: fatpipe]
      #12544010 - 10/17/07 03:05 PM

U guys should watch out, cuz i'm sure the people who are behind this aren't gonna like the way you exposed them.. I'm afraid heads are gonna roll for this..

Good detective work.. but i'm afraid it won't go unpaid..


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Clayton
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: so sick bro]
      #12544015 - 10/17/07 03:05 PM

Well, the next step is figuring out who the accounts GREYCAT and DOUBLEDRAG belong to

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ikestoys
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Clayton]
      #12544028 - 10/17/07 03:06 PM

Quote:

Well, the next step is figuring out who the accounts GREYCAT and DOUBLEDRAG belong to




Unfortunately, they didnt give us all the evidence we need for that one yet.


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fnord_too
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Clayton]
      #12544046 - 10/17/07 03:07 PM

Quote:

one important thing of note is that this new info contradicts Dan Druff's theory, which was sold on the four accounts belonging to players that were inactive in the absolute system for a very long time

the truth proves to be just hilariously dumb.




Dan's theory was pretty solid. He was probably assuming that an AP employee (let alone a VP) would be such a [censored] idiot.


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Kimbell175113
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: ikestoys]
      #12544047 - 10/17/07 03:07 PM

keep digging, please, we're getting closer to 100:

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open


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SenatorKevin
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: estoysinblanca]
      #12544080 - 10/17/07 03:09 PM

Quote:

U guys should watch out, cuz i'm sure the people who are behind this aren't gonna like the way you exposed them.. I'm afraid heads are gonna roll for this..

Good detective work.. but i'm afraid it won't go unpaid..




*Thinks of the end of Jay and Silent Bob strike back as they hunt down all those evil message board commenters*


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Alobar
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Kimbell175113]
      #12544088 - 10/17/07 03:10 PM

Quote:

keep digging, please, we're getting closer to 100:

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open




am I the only one who thinks this getting on the front page of digg would be a bad thing?


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SenatorKevin
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Kimbell175113]
      #12544107 - 10/17/07 03:11 PM

Quote:

keep digging, please, we're getting closer to 100:

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open




It's one of the top upcoming stories now, so other people can easily see it and digg it as well.


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GildwulfModerator
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Alobar]
      #12544116 - 10/17/07 03:11 PM

Quote:

Quote:

keep digging, please, we're getting closer to 100:

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open




am I the only one who thinks this getting on the front page of digg would be a bad thing?




media exposure is coming whether we like it or not

what is better...mass media exposure to make sure something like this never happens again and having other poker sites tighten up their security as a result, or helping AP sweep this under the rug?


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kitchma
member


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: SenatorKevin]
      #12544122 - 10/17/07 03:11 PM

Dugg: #91

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ammbo
journeyman


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Clayton]
      #12544126 - 10/17/07 03:12 PM

Quote:

one important thing of note is that this new info contradicts Dan Druff's theory, which was sold on the four accounts belonging to players that were inactive in the absolute system for a very long time

the truth proves to be just hilariously dumb.




Actually, no. POTRIPPER was never seen chip dumping, GRAYCAT and DOUBLEDRAG were. They may have decided to use their own accounts so that they would not have to chip dump any more.

Also, it is not uncommon for friends to play each others' accounts. It is possible that Scott Tom was using AJ Green's account and account 363 at the same time. Just saying, we can't know exactly who was playing the accounts but it is reasonable to say it was at least one of them, maybe more people, too.


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whangarei
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Alobar]
      #12544132 - 10/17/07 03:12 PM

Quote:

Quote:

keep digging, please, we're getting closer to 100:

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open




am I the only one who thinks this getting on the front page of digg would be a bad thing?




Nope.


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gumpzilla
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Alobar]
      #12544142 - 10/17/07 03:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

keep digging, please, we're getting closer to 100:

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open




am I the only one who thinks this getting on the front page of digg would be a bad thing?




No, plenty of people have expressed the idea that they think this publicity will be bad for poker. I think there's a pretty good chance of that, at least in the short term, but who knows, it might lead to a better endgame. It does make an argument for better regulation, among other things. Since I personally don't have much financially at stake in poker, I would like to see this brought to as much light as possible, just because I would like to see Absolute completely destroyed.


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mmbt0ne
em em bee


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: goofyballer]
      #12544144 - 10/17/07 03:13 PM

Bump

And Dugg

And
Quote:

all you have to do is register a Digg account (free, ez, fast)




Sounds like my prom night.

Also, any luck tracking this "AJ Green" down on Mark Seif's myspace?


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SenatorKevin
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Alobar]
      #12544146 - 10/17/07 03:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

keep digging, please, we're getting closer to 100:

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open




am I the only one who thinks this getting on the front page of digg would be a bad thing?




It would have been bad if a site that has limited bandwidth made it to the front page, as those sites typically get overrun with hits. At least the nytimes.com can handle a load. Media exposure is coming regardless. At least you can vote for it on digg.


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whangarei
old hand


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Gildwulf]
      #12544165 - 10/17/07 03:15 PM

Quote:

what is better...mass media exposure to make sure something like this never happens again and having other poker sites tighten up their security as a result, or helping AP sweep this under the rug?




There's a middle ground where AP gets its due AND the fish don't leave because they saw on CNN that online poker is rigged.


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fluorescenthippo
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: ammbo]
      #12544169 - 10/17/07 03:15 PM

who are the people he (steven levitt) thanks at the bottom of the article? are they 2p2ers?

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fatpipe
journeyman


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Posts: 90
Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Gildwulf]
      #12544171 - 10/17/07 03:16 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

keep digging, please, we're getting closer to 100:

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open




am I the only one who thinks this getting on the front page of digg would be a bad thing?




media exposure is coming whether we like it or not

what is better...mass media exposure to make sure something like this never happens again and having other poker sites tighten up their security as a result, or helping AP sweep this under the rug?




it's pretty close I think...


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iron81
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: gumpzilla]
      #12544172 - 10/17/07 03:16 PM

I just found this article on an IT security website. Besides the Freaknomics blog, I think its the first article about this outside of the poker world.

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adantharModerator
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12544182 - 10/17/07 03:16 PM

Quote:

The Potripper account belongs to AJ Green, former Director of Operations at AP and Scott Tom's best friend. AJ Green is currently VP of operations at nine.com.




Breaking news update that should surprise absolutely no one:

AJ Green is also POTSLAMMER, he of the 3 posts shilling for AP in his only thread. As we already know, The Watchdog, who comes in to defend him and co-shill for AP in that thread, is probably Scott Tom.

This is not the end of this story and more will be forthcoming along these lines.


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RikaKazak
#1 Real Estate Baller


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Kimbell175113]
      #12544185 - 10/17/07 03:16 PM

Quote:

keep digging, please, we're getting closer to 100:

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open





I just digged it or however you say that.

I signed up and registered in under 2 minutes. I was number 97...gogogogogogo people googogoggogo


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CCx
HUHU for nickels


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: SenatorKevin]
      #12544192 - 10/17/07 03:17 PM

Dugg - #99

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goofyballer
Emo Communist


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: gumpzilla]
      #12544199 - 10/17/07 03:17 PM

Given AP's responses thus far it would be completely retarded to try to keep this from getting out into the mainstream media if we have any desire whatsoever for
a.) the truth about the AP situation to come out
b.) other poker sites to see that this sort of thing will eventually be caught and lead to their financial ruin.

I mean, seriously guys? "Let's keep this out of the media, AP will probably make this right on their own?"


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Kimbell175113
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: RikaKazak]
      #12544200 - 10/17/07 03:17 PM

100, there it is

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jalexand42
Hypothetical Ubermonkey


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: whangarei]
      #12544204 - 10/17/07 03:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

keep digging, please, we're getting closer to 100:

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open




am I the only one who thinks this getting on the front page of digg would be a bad thing?




Nope.




Long term: wide open exposure of site's security records and methods is WAAAY better than short term coverups. This means some news will be bad, but if cheating activity is hugely exposed it will make sites scared to death THEY will be exposed.

As lapoker said: fish/gamblers will play no matter what. Those of us that want to play and beat the games at high stakes need to know the games are fair.


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pokerstudAA
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: adanthar]
      #12544214 - 10/17/07 03:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The Potripper account belongs to AJ Green, former Director of Operations at AP and Scott Tom's best friend. AJ Green is currently VP of operations at nine.com.




Breaking news update that should surprise absolutely no one:

AJ Green is also POTSLAMMER, he of the 3 posts shilling for AP in his only thread. As we already know, The Watchdog, who comes in to defend him and co-shill for AP in that thread, is probably Scott Tom.

This is not the end of this story and more will be forthcoming along these lines.




So sick. Keep up the investigative work guys. Very nice job so far.


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SenatorKevin
enthusiast


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Kimbell175113]
      #12544234 - 10/17/07 03:20 PM

Quote:

100, there it is




100 diggs doesn't guarantee it makes it to the front page. It's based on how long the article has been out and what not. 100 diggs in 2 hours is very good though. Hopefully a few more and it makes it.


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runout_mick
setting the world right


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: jalexand42]
      #12544247 - 10/17/07 03:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

keep digging, please, we're getting closer to 100:

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open




am I the only one who thinks this getting on the front page of digg would be a bad thing?




Nope.




Long term: wide open exposure of site's security records and methods is WAAAY better than short term coverups. This means some news will be bad, but if cheating activity is hugely exposed it will make sites scared to death THEY will be exposed.

As lapoker said: fish/gamblers will play no matter what. Those of us that want to play and beat the games at high stakes need to know the games are fair.




I'd much rather take a small hit now than worry about the long term integrity of the game.

I'm big on principle.



Edit: Also, I'm pretty sure we don't need a running digg-dugg count.

Edited by runout_mick (10/17/07 03:22 PM)


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GildwulfModerator
BBV4LIFE


Reged: 05/05/05
Posts: 20307
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: runout_mick]
      #12544253 - 10/17/07 03:21 PM

keep trying with digg, it's not even close to the front page yet

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basementproject
addict


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Posts: 515
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Gildwulf]
      #12544273 - 10/17/07 03:23 PM

Spread the digg around to p5s & FTR, other forums maybe?

The sheer momentum of this whole thing seems unstoppable, so there's no sense now in holding back.


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Keepitsimple
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: runout_mick]
      #12544275 - 10/17/07 03:23 PM

yes its definately good thats its out in the open. Btw what would happen if something like this happened at stars? Can they just hide under some tribe law or will they face serious concequences?

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N 82 50 24
MTT Data Collector


Reged: 03/05/05
Posts: 4196
Loc: thepokerdb
Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: estoysinblanca]
      #12544277 - 10/17/07 03:23 PM

Quote:

U guys should watch out, cuz i'm sure the people who are behind this aren't gonna like the way you exposed them.. I'm afraid heads are gonna roll for this..

Good detective work.. but i'm afraid it won't go unpaid..



I've definitely thought about this possibility with regards to my own safety. Here's the way I see it...

a) People know my real name and what I look like
b) Tons of people interact with me on a daily basis
c) If I went missing or something, it would be relatively obvious
d) If the AP people want some very serious US Gov't attention, the best way to do that would be threatening or hurting Adanthar, snagglepuss, myself, etc. I kinda doubt they want that.
e) This is not meant to be a brag, but I have a well-off and well-connected family. They would not let it rest if something happened to me, especially considering how obvious it would be who did it and who was behind it.

They have a lot to lose by making that mistake. So I'm banking on that, among other things, to protect myself and my friends.


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GildwulfModerator
BBV4LIFE


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: basementproject]
      #12544278 - 10/17/07 03:23 PM

i just want to point out there are 880 people reading bbv right now

average is about 150


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N 82 50 24
MTT Data Collector


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: N 82 50 24]
      #12544286 - 10/17/07 03:24 PM

I should also note that no one from AP has contacted me asking me to keep quiet or threatening me in any way.

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RikaKazak
#1 Real Estate Baller


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Gildwulf]
      #12544292 - 10/17/07 03:24 PM

Quote:

keep trying with digg, it's not even close to the front page yet




agreed

I'm contacting people I know on msn and telling them to get off their butts and digg it (lol that sounds LOL)

just link them to it and we can gogogogogogog


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N 82 50 24
MTT Data Collector


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Gildwulf]
      #12544295 - 10/17/07 03:24 PM

Quote:

i just want to point out there are 880 people reading bbv right now

average is about 150



I guess that's because of good modding, right?


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jhill3535
old hand


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: ammbo]
      #12544300 - 10/17/07 03:25 PM

Isn't Nine.com the same thing as VIP.com which is the title sponsor of the BLUFF poker tour. If you go www.nine.com and click on any of the 4 links on the bottom of the page it takes you to VIP.com.

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Das Budrick
Die Narren


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Gildwulf]
      #12544302 - 10/17/07 03:25 PM

Quote:

i just want to point out there are 880 people reading bbv right now

average is about 150




Great Success!


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GildwulfModerator
BBV4LIFE


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: N 82 50 24]
      #12544303 - 10/17/07 03:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

i just want to point out there are 880 people reading bbv right now

average is about 150



I guess that's because of good modding, right?




lol no I am saying that people are listening, it's working, etc, encouragement

that wasn't meant as a pat on the back


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fatpipe
journeyman


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Posts: 90
Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Gildwulf]
      #12544305 - 10/17/07 03:25 PM

Digg #110

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BrianBigNFun
enthusiast


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: runout_mick]
      #12544312 - 10/17/07 03:25 PM

still not on front page of digg yet- keep digging people

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Duudle
stranger


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: N 82 50 24]
      #12544331 - 10/17/07 03:27 PM

Don't think this is that important info but:
Scott Tom is listed as Director of Mohawk Council of Kahnawake, Kahnawake, QC.
http://www.kahnawake.com/upload/photos/capital08.jpg
Anyidea if he's in this photo ?


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N 82 50 24
MTT Data Collector


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Gildwulf]
      #12544333 - 10/17/07 03:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

i just want to point out there are 880 people reading bbv right now

average is about 150



I guess that's because of good modding, right?




lol no I am saying that people are listening, it's working, etc, encouragement

that wasn't meant as a pat on the back



i was kidding not that there isn't good modding in bbv


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N 82 50 24
MTT Data Collector


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Duudle]
      #12544337 - 10/17/07 03:28 PM

Quote:

Don't think this is that important info but:
Scott Tom is listed as Director of Mohawk Council of Kahnawake, Kahnawake, QC.
http://www.kahnawake.com/upload/photos/capital08.jpg
Anyidea if he's in this photo ?



That doesn't look like his crowd of people...


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Red_Diamond
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: BrianBigNFun]
      #12544353 - 10/17/07 03:29 PM

I read the New York Times, and I am puzzled at how prison time is predicted.

It is up to AP to decide if a crime during the tournament has been committed on their server, is it not?

Since AP insists no crime was committed (at least not DURING the tournament), then how can there be prison time served? It doesn't matter if the whole world holds hands and says yes, there was a crime here. AP is the one who OWNS AP (and now UB). They make the decisions.


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basementproject
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Duudle]
      #12544355 - 10/17/07 03:30 PM

Quote:

Don't think this is that important info but:
Scott Tom is listed as Director of Mohawk Council of Kahnawake, Kahnawake, QC.
http://www.kahnawake.com/upload/photos/capital08.jpg
Anyidea if he's in this photo ?




I came across this while googling madly as well.

You'll find that "Tom Scott" is in fact the MCK director, not "Scott Tom"


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adantharModerator
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Red_Diamond]
      #12544368 - 10/17/07 03:30 PM

Quote:

I read the New York Times, and I am puzzled at how prison time is predicted.

It is up to AP to decide if a crime during the tournament has been committed on their server, is it not?

Since AP insists no crime was committed (at least not DURING the tournament), then how can there be prison time served? It doesn't matter if the whole world holds hands and says yes, there was a crime here. AP is the one who OWNS AP (and now UB). They make the decisions.




...well, that's the way it would work in ancap-land, yes


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dknightx
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: N 82 50 24]
      #12544382 - 10/17/07 03:32 PM

it looks like the top item to me ... or atleast another article about this same thing

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basementproject
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: dknightx]
      #12544392 - 10/17/07 03:33 PM

WOW congrats all. #1 article on the digg front page.

Edit: People are digging the wrong one. But still...

Edited by basementproject (10/17/07 03:34 PM)


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hennnerz
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: jalexand42]
      #12544395 - 10/17/07 03:33 PM

Quote:



http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open




Done my dig. Now linking it for the next guy.


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KurtSF
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: BrianBigNFun]
      #12544399 - 10/17/07 03:33 PM

From AP's official response:

Quote:

We spent extensive resources thoroughly investigating and analyzing our players’ claims. While our investigation is ongoing, we feel that we have enough information at this point to share with you some of our findings.

[snip]

In response to the allegations, we froze the accounts of the players in question while we performed an extensive investigation. The result of our investigation is that we found no evidence that any of Absolute Poker’s redundant and varying levels of game client security were compromised.




And now, from sources within AP:

Quote:

The Potripper account belongs to AJ Green, former Director of Operations at AP and Scott Tom's best friend. AJ Green is currently VP of operations at nine.com.




A month for this investigation? No one can be this stupid!

Coverup. 100%.

Expect everyone in AP upper management to be in Argentina by tomorrow. The audit can never happen... its all just too obvious once the information is available.


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Khaos4k
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: hennnerz]
      #12544418 - 10/17/07 03:35 PM

http://www.digg.com/security/Major_Online_Poker_Room_Caught_Cheating_2

This is a different article that just made it to the front page. Digg this one up too.


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estoysinblanca
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: N 82 50 24]
      #12544423 - 10/17/07 03:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

U guys should watch out, cuz i'm sure the people who are behind this aren't gonna like the way you exposed them.. I'm afraid heads are gonna roll for this..

Good detective work.. but i'm afraid it won't go unpaid..



I've definitely thought about this possibility with regards to my own safety. Here's the way I see it...

a) People know my real name and what I look like
b) Tons of people interact with me on a daily basis
c) If I went missing or something, it would be relatively obvious
d) If the AP people want some very serious US Gov't attention, the best way to do that would be threatening or hurting Adanthar, snagglepuss, myself, etc. I kinda doubt they want that.
e) This is not meant to be a brag, but I have a well-off and well-connected family. They would not let it rest if something happened to me, especially considering how obvious it would be who did it and who was behind it.

They have a lot to lose by making that mistake. So I'm banking on that, among other things, to protect myself and my friends.




Good thinking but remember that in unrestricted countries like Costa Rica money buys everything.

Anyway, again compliments on the detective work. Really serious business and hopefully you guys will get acknowledged for your work once it will be put on the frontpages.


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TylerD
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: so sick bro]
      #12544425 - 10/17/07 03:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

wow, absolute is going down




justice 1 time ftw?




But Absolute players know nothing about it. Even if every major poker news site picked up the story there would probably still be a healthy player base. Now if some of the major news sites picked up the story things would become different. Steve Levett's blog is obv a good start...


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fnord_too
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: dknightx]
      #12544427 - 10/17/07 03:35 PM

Quote:

it looks like the top item to me ... or atleast another article about this same thing




Yeah, top story on the main page now. 129 diggs so far.


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nath
the second coming of the second coming


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Red_Diamond]
      #12544428 - 10/17/07 03:35 PM

Quote:

I read the New York Times, and I am puzzled at how prison time is predicted.

It is up to AP to decide if a crime during the tournament has been committed on their server, is it not?

Since AP insists no crime was committed (at least not DURING the tournament), then how can there be prison time served? It doesn't matter if the whole world holds hands and says yes, there was a crime here. AP is the one who OWNS AP (and now UB). They make the decisions.



Here's a hint: Absolute Poker has neither the power nor responsibility to make or enforce laws


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sightless
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: fnord_too]
      #12544451 - 10/17/07 03:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

it looks like the top item to me ... or atleast another article about this same thing




Yeah, top story on the main page now. 129 diggs so far.




nice


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hennnerz
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: fnord_too]
      #12544457 - 10/17/07 03:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

it looks like the top item to me ... or atleast another article about this same thing




Yeah, top story on the main page now. 129 diggs so far.




Yeah but we need 5373 to be top over 24 hours, or realistically 3500+


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goofyballer
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: basementproject]
      #12544463 - 10/17/07 03:38 PM

Quote:

WOW congrats all. #1 article on the digg front page.

Edit: People are digging the wrong one. But still...




Yeah, this is the URL on the front page:

http://www.digg.com/security/Major_Online_Poker_Room_Caught_Cheating_2

Hell, digg both!


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Das Budrick
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: goofyballer]
      #12544494 - 10/17/07 03:40 PM

over 1k users on this forum

and climbing steadily

Edited by Das Budrick (10/17/07 03:41 PM)


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NHFunkii
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: estoysinblanca]
      #12544510 - 10/17/07 03:41 PM

Quote:

U guys should watch out, cuz i'm sure the people who are behind this aren't gonna like the way you exposed them.. I'm afraid heads are gonna roll for this..

Good detective work.. but i'm afraid it won't go unpaid..




I mean, I guess you can't rule it out, but I'm guessing there's a lot of people who draw their moral line somewhere between stealing a lot of money and killing those who caught them.


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basementproject
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Das Budrick]
      #12544516 - 10/17/07 03:41 PM

Talk about 2+2 getting its money's worth in bandwidth use...

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PartyGirlUK
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Das Budrick]
      #12544518 - 10/17/07 03:42 PM

Hopefully the moles can find out the truth/untruth behind the Seif allegations. Would be really good for that to be cleared either way.

D


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dankhank
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: hennnerz]
      #12544535 - 10/17/07 03:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:



http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open




Done my dig. Now linking it for the next guy.




given the choice of two stories, people should probably be digging the nytimes link


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dknightx
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: PartyGirlUK]
      #12544539 - 10/17/07 03:44 PM

WE ARE GETTING BEAT BY SOME LAME STORY ABOUT A 13 YEAR OLD KID

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pokerstudAA
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: PartyGirlUK]
      #12544559 - 10/17/07 03:46 PM

Quote:

Hopefully the moles can find out the truth/untruth behind the Seif allegations. Would be really good for that to be cleared either way.

D




My guess would be that cash game tables on Absolute have the same type of observer logs that was uncovered for the 1K tournament.

If we can somehow get access to those log - I bet they would reveal User #363 observing those tables played at by DOUBLEDRAG and POTRIPPER and perhaps Seif.


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zen_rounder
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: gumpzilla]
      #12544576 - 10/17/07 03:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

keep digging, please, we're getting closer to 100:

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open




am I the only one who thinks this getting on the front page of digg would be a bad thing?




No, plenty of people have expressed the idea that they think this publicity will be bad for poker. I think there's a pretty good chance of that, at least in the short term, but who knows, it might lead to a better endgame. It does make an argument for better regulation, among other things. Since I personally don't have much financially at stake in poker, I would like to see this brought to as much light as possible, just because I would like to see Absolute completely destroyed.


agreed

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sixfour
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: pokerstudAA]
      #12544591 - 10/17/07 03:49 PM

Dugg back in double figures, reposted digg link prominently in a couple of other places

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Red_Diamond
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: pokerstudAA]
      #12544611 - 10/17/07 03:50 PM

If there happens to be logs still with that info. I'm curious if they go missing or get altered the instant an IP address from AP refreshes this thread.

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txbarbarossa
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: KurtSF]
      #12544621 - 10/17/07 03:50 PM

Quote:


Expect everyone in AP upper management to be in Argentina by tomorrow. The audit can never happen... its all just too obvious once the information is available.




Don't cry for me Argentina...

If I were one of the people sheisted I'd fly down there and find those scumbags and make 'em cry.


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apefish
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: sixfour]
      #12544622 - 10/17/07 03:50 PM

Dugg it. #145.

Adanthar- more dramabombs please. I can now make popcorn and watch thread for rest of day. woot.


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TehVader
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: zen_rounder]
      #12544624 - 10/17/07 03:50 PM

I've been following this from the beginning and it's just shocking to see how deep this goes.

Great work by everyone involved in finding out the truth here, I won't name names because I'll just miss some of them anyways, but everyone in the online community owes you alot of gratitude.

I just dugg both the stories on www.digg.com and I'm getting my popcorn ready for more exciting developments


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Exitonly
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: TehVader]
      #12544662 - 10/17/07 03:53 PM

In the comments for the digg article on the front page..

Quote:

This guy is banned from nearly every "real" poker room in Costa Rica for trying to cheat, there is no doubt he would be cheating online!




was this from one of these threads? i dont remember reading anything about that


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gumpzilla
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: TehVader]
      #12544680 - 10/17/07 03:54 PM

Metafilter has something up about this, linking to 2+2. Link here. It's not clear from the front page what the article is about, which is unfortunate, and that's obviously going to get a smaller audience than digg, but the word continues to spread.

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admiralfluff
Pooh-Bah


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: TehVader]
      #12544688 - 10/17/07 03:54 PM

2p2er GotMilk posted this in the zoo:

Quote:

I have User Account #84. It's possible that I was a beta tester, I simply don't remember--But at that point it was definitely very public--I don't believe for a second User #363 was an accidental beta testing backdoor--It was created on purpose after the fact.




Implications of this? I think the evidence gathered is too strong to throw doubt on the involvement of account #363. Maybe 363 was created specifically for this purpose in the early days of AP by a few core players (Tom, and/or AJ, and/or Mark, and/or others). This would add more clout to the claim that the current AP administration knows nothing of it, and their behavior can be attributed to incompetence. We can always hope.


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apefish
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Exitonly]
      #12544696 - 10/17/07 03:55 PM

I don't recall anything like that.

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netstorm
old hand


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Gildwulf]
      #12544697 - 10/17/07 03:55 PM

Quote:

i just want to point out there are 880 people reading bbv right now

average is about 150




well, its 1340 now, just 15 minutes or so later...


Adanthar or anyone else; Is more info coming or can I leave BBV alone for an hour or so?


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egj
journeyman


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Posts: 76
Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: N 82 50 24]
      #12544719 - 10/17/07 03:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:


A confidential source told me that the guy is no longer with the company.

But maybe someone else is willing to send this stuff out.



BTW, I was told that by two separate confidential sources, both of whom did not want to post on their names. I trust both of them.




Maybe somebody can help this guy get a job (at PokerStars or somewhere) after this all blows over.


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Ponies
addict


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Posts: 645
Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: netstorm]
      #12544737 - 10/17/07 03:57 PM

The first news thing on digg right now - 400+ diggs
http://www.digg.com/security/Major_Online_Poker_Room_Caught_Cheating_2

I cant understand why u all want this to be blown up so much.
Read the comments it just gives retarded fish a reason not to play online since its obv rigged. now the have proof.


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Dids
CARDS IS FUN


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: egj]
      #12544747 - 10/17/07 03:58 PM

LOL.

Y'all have made an impact

From a non 2p2 reading co-worker.

Chad says:
has this been big news for pokerplayers around the world? http://www.poker-king.com/poker-king-articles.php?article=282
B. David says:
lord yes
B. David says:
it's huge on 2p2
Chad says:
ya I just read about it on digg

Edited by Dids (10/17/07 03:59 PM)


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nath
the second coming of the second coming


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Ponies]
      #12544751 - 10/17/07 03:59 PM

Quote:

The first news thing on digg right now - 400+ diggs
http://www.digg.com/security/Major_Online_Poker_Room_Caught_Cheating_2

I cant understand why u all want this to be blown up so much.



It's coming out anyway. Better to take charge of the story from our side rather than try to sweep it under the rug.


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Dids
CARDS IS FUN


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: nath]
      #12544764 - 10/17/07 04:00 PM

I think this being public doesn't hurt online poker that much. It hurts AP, but if 'Stars, FTP etc are smart they're working on their "here is why this would NEVER happen here" statements right now.

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Exitonly
EPT All-Star (Candyman)


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: nath]
      #12544766 - 10/17/07 04:00 PM

It's a shame the article thats getting dugg is the crappily written one.

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Red_Diamond
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: egj]
      #12544783 - 10/17/07 04:01 PM

A ‘super-user’ account does not exist in our software.
The Absolute Poker Management


As you can see, everyone here seems to be making a big issue out of nothing. If you can't trust AP, who can you trust?

Edited by Red_Diamond (10/17/07 04:01 PM)


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bocablkr
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: N 82 50 24]
      #12544795 - 10/17/07 04:02 PM

Quote:

I should also note that no one from AP has contacted me asking me to keep quiet or threatening me in any way.




Nat,

Can't you get one of your contacts inside to find out what the name and password for user #363 is. Then they can log in and see if they can see the hole cards. Unless it has a secret password beyond the normal one.


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Deuce2High
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Exitonly]
      #12544808 - 10/17/07 04:03 PM

Quote:

It's a shame the article thats getting dugg is the crappily written one.




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TheTruthSpeaks
member


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Posts: 120
Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Ponies]
      #12544827 - 10/17/07 04:04 PM

My God now Absolute has no recourse. They could have used Scott Tom as the scapegoat, but now with the recent evidence, they obviously knew when they investigated the POTRIPPER account that it was their former employee and best friend of the CEO. So they have blatently lied in their last official statement. This runs soooo deep in their company. It's kind of like when you tell a lie and then another and then another to try to get out of something and it only gets worse and worse.

GG Absolute


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Dudd
Carpal \'Tunnel


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: bocablkr]
      #12544844 - 10/17/07 04:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I should also note that no one from AP has contacted me asking me to keep quiet or threatening me in any way.




Nat,

Can't you get one of your contacts inside to find out what the name and password for user #363 is. Then they can log in and see if they can see the hole cards. Unless it has a secret password beyond the normal one.




I would hope that even in a company as crappily run as Absolute that they wouldn't have it be possible for their employees to be able to look up passwords, only reset it via an emailed link like everyone else.


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Ponies
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: TheTruthSpeaks]
      #12544849 - 10/17/07 04:05 PM

180 more diggs to that story in about 5 minutes.

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Abramovic
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Ponies]
      #12544884 - 10/17/07 04:07 PM

It would be beautiful to see the emergency board meetings/equilavent going on at AP right now.

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Khaos4k
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Ponies]
      #12544893 - 10/17/07 04:07 PM

Quote:

The first news thing on digg right now - 400+ diggs
http://www.digg.com/security/Major_Online_Poker_Room_Caught_Cheating_2

I cant understand why u all want this to be blown up so much.
Read the comments it just gives retarded fish a reason not to play online since its obv rigged. now the have proof.




This is getting coverage to show that if you try to cheat, it will blow up in your face. We do NOT need to help absolute sweep this underneath the rug. If we do that, it means they can cheat, and then have poker players help them get away with it!

In the short term, there may be a hit. But this is very good for the long run of online poker.


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nath
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Ponies]
      #12544908 - 10/17/07 04:08 PM

reposting b/c the Levitt piece needs to be dugg more

http://www.digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open


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bocablkr
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Dudd]
      #12544922 - 10/17/07 04:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I should also note that no one from AP has contacted me asking me to keep quiet or threatening me in any way.




Nat,

Can't you get one of your contacts inside to find out what the name and password for user #363 is. Then they can log in and see if they can see the hole cards. Unless it has a secret password beyond the normal one.




I would hope that even in a company as crappily run as Absolute that they wouldn't have it be possible for their employees to be able to look up passwords, only reset it via an emailed link like everyone else.




Depends on the position of the inside guy. If he is a programmer he can probably get access to the password file.


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NajdorfDefense
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: jhill3535]
      #12544933 - 10/17/07 04:09 PM

Quote:

Isn't Nine.com the same thing as VIP.com which is the title sponsor of the BLUFF poker tour. If you go www.nine.com and click on any of the 4 links on the bottom of the page it takes you to VIP.com.




Yes, they are the same firm.


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sixfour
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: nath]
      #12544934 - 10/17/07 04:09 PM

Tried submitting the poker-king article to Fark, someone beat me to it (was rejected), also just sent it into slashdot, although I'm not sure it's the sort of thing they'd generally pick up on

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MyTurn2Raise
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: netstorm]
      #12544940 - 10/17/07 04:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

i just want to point out there are 880 people reading bbv right now

average is about 150




well, its 1340 now, just 15 minutes or so later...


Adanthar or anyone else; Is more info coming or can I leave BBV alone for an hour or so?




fantastic that the new visitors come to BBV first...hahaha


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apefish
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: nath]
      #12544943 - 10/17/07 04:10 PM

Okay phew- it's the Levitt one I dugg and not the other one.

PLEASE DIGG LEVITT'S ARTICLE.


edit: good point Gild. In all my popcorn making frenzy I skipped that logical step. done now.

Edited by apefish (10/17/07 04:12 PM)


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HSB
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Abramovic]
      #12544953 - 10/17/07 04:10 PM

Quote:

It would be beautiful to see the emergency board meetings/equilavent going on at AP right now.




That would be incredibly sweet.


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scpi10
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Khaos4k]
      #12544961 - 10/17/07 04:11 PM

How does blowing this story up help online poker in anyway?
The fallout from this is way bigger than any upside I can think of.


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GildwulfModerator
BBV4LIFE


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: apefish]
      #12544962 - 10/17/07 04:11 PM

i dugg everything i saw related to the topic

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rcs1537
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: NajdorfDefense]
      #12544969 - 10/17/07 04:11 PM

Can somone post a link to the best article to dig?

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xTheKidx
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Ponies]
      #12544973 - 10/17/07 04:11 PM

Can anybody make some new Cliffnotes with the latest News about who were involved?
It is impossible to follow the Thread,when everytime I want to read it there are 200+ new Posts.


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Abramovic
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Gildwulf]
      #12544980 - 10/17/07 04:12 PM

Im not sure whether this page is some sort of sick joke:

http://www.absolutepoker.com/integrity/


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ikestoys
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: xTheKidx]
      #12544985 - 10/17/07 04:12 PM

Quote:

Can anybody make some new Cliffnotes with the latest News about who were involved?
It is impossible to follow the Thread,when everytime I want to read it there are 200+ new Posts.




stop being lazy


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N 82 50 24
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: egj]
      #12544994 - 10/17/07 04:12 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


A confidential source told me that the guy is no longer with the company.

But maybe someone else is willing to send this stuff out.



BTW, I was told that by two separate confidential sources, both of whom did not want to post on their names. I trust both of them.




Maybe somebody can help this guy get a job (at PokerStars or somewhere) after this all blows over.



Me?


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KurtSF
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: sixfour]
      #12545011 - 10/17/07 04:13 PM

Quote:

Tried submitting the poker-king article to Fark, someone beat me to it (was rejected), also just sent it into slashdot, although I'm not sure it's the sort of thing they'd generally pick up on




This article might be a good discussion starter for /. since its from an IT source.

http://www.securitypronews.com/insiderreports/insider/spn-49-20071017TheAbsolutePokerKerfuffle.html


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sapsuckah
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: bocablkr]
      #12545025 - 10/17/07 04:14 PM

Hey -- long time listener, first time caller (on the AP subject at least).

If I may digress from the digging and speculation for a sec... I've spent the day looking through a bazillion posts and I haven't seen this question addressed (sorry if I've missed it):

Supposedly, POTRIPPER folded his first couple hands before the 363 observer entered the table... and that's when he started the suspicious activities. But in the PXF replay, we see POTRIPPER winning right from the start.

Why the discrepancy?


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jessica1994
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: KurtSF]
      #12545026 - 10/17/07 04:14 PM

"No private data, such as pocket cards, is ever transferred to other players." lol

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mntbikr15
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: PartyGirlUK]
      #12545030 - 10/17/07 04:14 PM

Quote:

Hopefully the moles can find out the truth/untruth behind the Seif allegations. Would be really good for that to be cleared either way.

D





God I hope that sack of [censored] goes down hard


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imabigdeal
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: NajdorfDefense]
      #12545041 - 10/17/07 04:15 PM

taking this public is definitely a good thing imo. the "retarded fish" making those comments, the people saying "i told you so"- they've been convinced all along online poker is shady and rigged. they've either never deposited and never will, or did once and lost and never will again. it may dissuade some from trying online poker out, but if they have ANY knowledge/do research/have half a brain they'll just deposit at a different site.

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sbj
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: scpi10]
      #12545068 - 10/17/07 04:17 PM

Quote:

How does blowing this story up help online poker in anyway?
The fallout from this is way bigger than any upside I can think of.




The cat is out of the bag. We are not risking the health of online poker by getting the word out, those who abused their positions in the industry for a quick and amoral profit did so already.
What matters most is the long term health of online poker. I think and most in here agree that getting the information out there with a rational interpretation of the facts will provide short term pain but in the long run is the most +EV (or perhaps least -EV) play. It might end up causing the US to regulate the industry and thus making it more mainstream.

IMHO.


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jakeduke
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: scpi10]
      #12545074 - 10/17/07 04:17 PM

First and foremost, airing this as much as possible ensures AP gets the closest thing to justice that we can incur. Past that, this story forces all other poker sites to step up and speak out about their security policies, and it provides some level of ammunition to back up the argument for regulation of online poker. We may take a publicity/credibility hit in the short term, but it will be made up for in the long term.

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zen_rounder
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: jessica1994]
      #12545106 - 10/17/07 04:18 PM

Quote:

"No private data, such as pocket cards, is ever transferred to other players." lol


ooops lol

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egj
journeyman


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: sapsuckah]
      #12545139 - 10/17/07 04:20 PM

Quote:

Hey -- long time listener, first time caller (on the AP subject at least).

If I may digress from the digging and speculation for a sec... I've spent the day looking through a bazillion posts and I haven't seen this question addressed (sorry if I've missed it):

Supposedly, POTRIPPER folded his first couple hands before the 363 observer entered the table... and that's when he started the suspicious activities. But in the PXF replay, we see POTRIPPER winning right from the start.

Why the discrepancy?




It looks like the replay on PXF doesn't begin from the very beginning. You can see that some players have slightly more or less than 10,000 chips. I suspect that precisely the first two hands are missing.

Would have been better to include all (available) hands IMO, but no biggie...


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imabigdeal
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: zen_rounder]
      #12545144 - 10/17/07 04:20 PM

over/under # of days it takes for this story to be picked up by a major news outlet

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scpi10
addict


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: sbj]
      #12545153 - 10/17/07 04:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

How does blowing this story up help online poker in anyway?
The fallout from this is way bigger than any upside I can think of.



regulate
The cat is out of the bag. We are not risking the health of online poker by getting the word out, those who abused their positions in the industry for a quick and amoral profit did so already.
What matters most is the long term health of online poker. I think and most in here agree that getting the information out there with a rational interpretation of the facts will provide short term pain but in the long run is the most +EV (or perhaps least -EV) play. It might end up causing the US to regulate the industry and thus making it more mainstream.

IMHO.



Sorry if I don't trust the US govt to regulate anything the right way. I understand why everyone thinks this can help online gambling but knee jerk reactions from the US govt seem to last a lot longer than expected.


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SL__72
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: zen_rounder]
      #12545158 - 10/17/07 04:21 PM

I don't have access to update it, but adanthar has updated the OP a couple of times now, so for anyone who doesn't want to read through the thread, the OP will hopefully stay pretty up to date.

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runout_mick
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: imabigdeal]
      #12545176 - 10/17/07 04:22 PM

Quote:

over/under # of days it takes for this story to be picked up by a major news outlet




I'm sure a few of the whistle-blowers are already in contact with "60 Minutes".


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apefish
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: sapsuckah]
      #12545189 - 10/17/07 04:23 PM

Quote:

Hey -- long time listener, first time caller (on the AP subject at least).

If I may digress from the digging and speculation for a sec... I've spent the day looking through a bazillion posts and I haven't seen this question addressed (sorry if I've missed it):

Supposedly, POTRIPPER folded his first couple hands before the 363 observer entered the table... and that's when he started the suspicious activities. But in the PXF replay, we see POTRIPPER winning right from the start.

Why the discrepancy?




Without knowing for sure I'm going to guess the replay starts with the hand the observer is in the room for.
Okay here... imagine him folding twice.
Now watch the replay again.


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mother_brain
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Reged: 03/16/05
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Dudd]
      #12545190 - 10/17/07 04:23 PM

At 2am Today I Posted The Following

Quote:

I hardly think that their reputation has reached the point of no return, as far as poker sites go at least. Other companies such as tylenol and chrysler have gone through far worse. AP simply needs to find a scapegoat, do a 180 on their stance for a while, offer some bonuses, and start counting their profits again.





At 9:40am Dewitt Posted

Quote:

If I ran Absolute Poker, I would take a lesson from past corporate attempts at cover ups, sacrifice the cheaters, and institute safeguards to prevent this ever happening again.




[censored] is plagiarizing my material.

I got some interesting economic ideas for stories bro, just hit me up


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sbj
enthusiast


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: scpi10]
      #12545199 - 10/17/07 04:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

How does blowing this story up help online poker in anyway?
The fallout from this is way bigger than any upside I can think of.



regulate
The cat is out of the bag. We are not risking the health of online poker by getting the word out, those who abused their positions in the industry for a quick and amoral profit did so already.
What matters most is the long term health of online poker. I think and most in here agree that getting the information out there with a rational interpretation of the facts will provide short term pain but in the long run is the most +EV (or perhaps least -EV) play. It might end up causing the US to regulate the industry and thus making it more mainstream.

IMHO.



Sorry if I don't trust the US govt to regulate anything the right way. I understand why everyone thinks this can help online gambling but knee jerk reactions from the US govt seem to last a lot longer than expected.




Point taken. But at this point, trying to hide this under the rug and then having it exposed by 'fear mongers' is the only other alternative.


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ibluffoldladies
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: runout_mick]
      #12545206 - 10/17/07 04:24 PM

Wow, this is exciting. This article is getting dugg so fast that it will be number one in many categories (24 hrs., 1 week, etc.). Prepare for the surge of traffic 2+2, digg is known to bring servers to their knees.

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netstorm
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: sbj]
      #12545211 - 10/17/07 04:24 PM

The article from the NYtimes is now on the front page on digg. Since his article also links to these forums, lets hope that one gets more diggs.

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scpi10
addict


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Posts: 545
Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: sbj]
      #12545235 - 10/17/07 04:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

How does blowing this story up help online poker in anyway?
The fallout from this is way bigger than any upside I can think of.



regulate
The cat is out of the bag. We are not risking the health of online poker by getting the word out, those who abused their positions in the industry for a quick and amoral profit did so already.
What matters most is the long term health of online poker. I think and most in here agree that getting the information out there with a rational interpretation of the facts will provide short term pain but in the long run is the most +EV (or perhaps least -EV) play. It might end up causing the US to regulate the industry and thus making it more mainstream.

IMHO.



Sorry if I don't trust the US govt to regulate anything the right way. I understand why everyone thinks this can help online gambling but knee jerk reactions from the US govt seem to last a lot longer than expected.




Point taken. But at this point, trying to hide this under the rug and then having it exposed by 'fear mongers' is the only other alternative.



I just hope the US doesn't ban online gaming outright b/c of this


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dknightx
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: mother_brain]
      #12545243 - 10/17/07 04:25 PM

Quote:

At 2am Today I Posted The Following

Quote:

I hardly think that their reputation has reached the point of no return, as far as poker sites go at least. Other companies such as tylenol and chrysler have gone through far worse. AP simply needs to find a scapegoat, do a 180 on their stance for a while, offer some bonuses, and start counting their profits again.





At 9:40am Dewitt Posted

Quote:

If I ran Absolute Poker, I would take a lesson from past corporate attempts at cover ups, sacrifice the cheaters, and institute safeguards to prevent this ever happening again.




[censored] is plagiarizing my material.

I got some interesting economic ideas for stories bro, just hit me up




you are dumb


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PartyGirlUK
Confirmed Bot, 100%


Reged: 11/02/04
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: netstorm]
      #12545263 - 10/17/07 04:26 PM

All, I've posted this (The Freakonomics artcile) on my Facebook and added a comment encouraging my friends to post this too. I suggest you do the same. The more of you that do, the more people that will find out about it.

D


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dibbs
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: runout_mick]
      #12545264 - 10/17/07 04:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

over/under # of days it takes for this story to be picked up by a major news outlet




I'm sure a few of the whistle-blowers are already in contact with "60 Minutes".




I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. Am I the only one the real mainstream media won't really care about this whole thing?


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ikestoys
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: scpi10]
      #12545277 - 10/17/07 04:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

How does blowing this story up help online poker in anyway?
The fallout from this is way bigger than any upside I can think of.



regulate
The cat is out of the bag. We are not risking the health of online poker by getting the word out, those who abused their positions in the industry for a quick and amoral profit did so already.
What matters most is the long term health of online poker. I think and most in here agree that getting the information out there with a rational interpretation of the facts will provide short term pain but in the long run is the most +EV (or perhaps least -EV) play. It might end up causing the US to regulate the industry and thus making it more mainstream.

IMHO.



Sorry if I don't trust the US govt to regulate anything the right way. I understand why everyone thinks this can help online gambling but knee jerk reactions from the US govt seem to last a lot longer than expected.




Point taken. But at this point, trying to hide this under the rug and then having it exposed by 'fear mongers' is the only other alternative.



I just hope the US doesn't ban online gaming outright b/c of this



level?


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Cruzincat
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: sixfour]
      #12545285 - 10/17/07 04:28 PM

Quote:

Tried submitting the poker-king article to Fark, someone beat me to it (was rejected), also just sent it into slashdot, although I'm not sure it's the sort of thing they'd generally pick up on



How about "The Smoking Gun"?


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sapsuckah
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: apefish]
      #12545286 - 10/17/07 04:28 PM

ok - thanks. Thought the whole HH was posted there.

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Barrin6
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes *DELETED* [Re: dibbs]
      #12545294 - 10/17/07 04:28 PM

Post deleted by Gildwulf

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MrWookie
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: netstorm]
      #12545301 - 10/17/07 04:29 PM

Quote:

The article from the NYtimes is now on the front page on digg. Since his article also links to these forums, lets hope that one gets more diggs.




Even barring the direct link to 2+2, the NYTimes piece is much more clearly written, more extensive in its directions, and more accurate.


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dibbs
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: ikestoys]
      #12545309 - 10/17/07 04:29 PM

Quote:

level?




Fear makes people think irrationally, I keep thinking this in the back of my head too, even though I know it doesn't make sense. I'm more worried about getting my cash out of Abso in time though


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Beastmaster
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: dibbs]
      #12545356 - 10/17/07 04:32 PM

You will always be able to bet the horses and the lottery online in the US, as that is a skill game.

Chance Abs. closes up shop and takes our money? 1%?


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Mrage
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: sapsuckah]
      #12545428 - 10/17/07 04:36 PM

Wow, this is picking up steam exponentially. At this rate, this will be in the national news in no time.

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iron81
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Mrage]
      #12545462 - 10/17/07 04:37 PM

1700 viewing BBV, 3900 viewing 2+2, 2+2 record is 4070 set the day Party closed.

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eastern motors
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: ikestoys]
      #12545464 - 10/17/07 04:37 PM

Quote:

plz plz plz let my money get out before they shutdown

lezzgo bank transfer, one time




What is the fastest way to get money out? I have never withdrawn before. I have also never deposited so I am on the phone with security right now trying to sort it out. They are taking forever, perhaps there is heavy call volume at the moment?


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jakeduke
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Mrage]
      #12545466 - 10/17/07 04:38 PM

The people in that digg thread are tilting me hard.

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Khaos4k
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Beastmaster]
      #12545467 - 10/17/07 04:38 PM

Quote:

You will always be able to bet the horses and the lottery online in the US, as that is a skill game.

Chance Abs. closes up shop and takes our money? 1%?




No idea, but if I had an account I'd be cashing it and closing it a week ago.


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apefish
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: sapsuckah]
      #12545469 - 10/17/07 04:38 PM

Quote:

ok - thanks. Thought the whole HH was posted there.




I watched most of it and have followed the threads carefully. Best guess is that two hands are missing where POTRIPPER simply folds. If you follow the threads and the HH sent to Marco, those are the only two hands he is on table before user 363 shows up and POTRIPPER starts his show.
The timing of user 363 entering the room is seconds after the second fold is what I remember.

The interesting folds are obviously further in- and they are shown, and as far as I know hands are not left out from the spot user 363 enters the room.


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SL__72
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: MrWookie]
      #12545471 - 10/17/07 04:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The article from the NYtimes is now on the front page on digg. Since his article also links to these forums, lets hope that one gets more diggs.




Even barring the direct link to 2+2, the NYTimes piece is much more clearly written, more extensive in its directions, and more accurate.




The problem is that there are inaccuracies in that article too.


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fnord_too
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Beastmaster]
      #12545474 - 10/17/07 04:38 PM

Question:

Do the people who own absolute also own any B&M casinos?

Edit - also, who owns them? I am confused on this point. I have read (I think) a Canadian tribe but also that they are located in Costa Rica?

Edited by fnord_too (10/17/07 04:39 PM)


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runout_mick
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: dibbs]
      #12545480 - 10/17/07 04:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

over/under # of days it takes for this story to be picked up by a major news outlet




I'm sure a few of the whistle-blowers are already in contact with "60 Minutes".




I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. Am I the only one the real mainstream media won't really care about this whole thing?




No sarcasm intended at all. If presented from the right angle, from the right source, there is TONS of material here that a mass market would find very interesting. Corporate corruption, abuse of power, thefts nearing/exceeding a million dollars, coverups, etc, etc...

All of this uncovered and investigated not by official agencies or insiders, but by those meddling 2+2 kids.

Nope, no appeal at all...


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BowToYourSensei
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Beastmaster]
      #12545489 - 10/17/07 04:39 PM

serious question (don't wanna start a thread over this) and i don't think this has been discussed, but how likely is it that this whole scandal could be used to define poker as unlawful gaming in UIEGA?

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fnord_too
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: BowToYourSensei]
      #12545542 - 10/17/07 04:42 PM

Quote:

serious question (don't wanna start a thread over this) and i don't think this has been discussed, but how likely is it that this whole scandal could be used to define poker as unlawful gaming in UIEGA?




Can't be at all. UIEGA does not in any way define what on line gaming is legal or illegal, it only puts regulations in place to define the steps banks have to take to ensure they don't allow funding of illegal on line gaming (afaik).


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suzzer99
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: NajdorfDefense]
      #12545550 - 10/17/07 04:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Isn't Nine.com the same thing as VIP.com which is the title sponsor of the BLUFF poker tour. If you go www.nine.com and click on any of the 4 links on the bottom of the page it takes you to VIP.com.




Yes, they are the same firm.




Wasn't the VIP poker tour the one that had that big scandal with a ridiculously high, unannounced vig? I think I even have an email from the director of the charity that was supposedly getting all the extra money.


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GoRedBirds
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: suzzer99]
      #12545602 - 10/17/07 04:44 PM

CEO poker tour iirc.

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Khaos4k
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: fnord_too]
      #12545603 - 10/17/07 04:45 PM

Quote:

Question:

Do the people who own absolute also own any B&M casinos?

Edit - also, who owns them? I am confused on this point. I have read (I think) a Canadian tribe but also that they are located in Costa Rica?




Guys who live in Costa Rica own Absolute. Absolute servers are on a native reserve in Canada.


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albedoa
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: BowToYourSensei]
      #12545611 - 10/17/07 04:45 PM

Quote:

serious question (don't wanna start a thread over this) and i don't think this has been discussed, but how likely is it that this whole scandal could be used to define poker as unlawful gaming in UIEGA?




How could this scandal change any definitions in the UIGEA?


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KurtSF
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: ibluffoldladies]
      #12545613 - 10/17/07 04:45 PM

Quote:

Wow, this is exciting. This article is getting dugg so fast that it will be number one in many categories (24 hrs., 1 week, etc.). Prepare for the surge of traffic 2+2, digg is known to bring servers to their knees.




Can we keep the OP in this thread updated with the latest so that all those who find this thread don't give up because they'd have to read for hours.

I suggest adding this immediatly, then additional dramabombs as they go off:

17) Inside sources at Absolute Poker have confirmed that POTRIPPER is belongs to AJ Green, former Director of Operations at AP and Scott Tom's best friend. AJ Green is currently VP of operations at nine.com.

Mods?


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suzzer99
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: GoRedBirds]
      #12545624 - 10/17/07 04:46 PM

Quote:

CEO poker tour iirc.




Ah yes. NM then.


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Johnny#5
Dead on the internet


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: GoRedBirds]
      #12545645 - 10/17/07 04:47 PM

Digg #412

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/20...lown-wide-open/

2P2 STORY OF THE MILLENIUM


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kitchma
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: BowToYourSensei]
      #12545668 - 10/17/07 04:48 PM

Quote:

serious question (don't wanna start a thread over this) and i don't think this has been discussed, but how likely is it that this whole scandal could be used to define poker as unlawful gaming in UIEGA?




As has been suggested by others, this scandal will be used against us unless the larger poker community gets out in front of it. I posted in the legislation forum that I view this as a test for the PPA. I would hope that they are currently writing up talking points for anyone who interacts with the media and that they are coordinating responses from the other poker sites. This is an incredible opportunity/threat depending on how it is handled. We'll see.


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SL__72
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: KurtSF]
      #12545681 - 10/17/07 04:49 PM

Dude, they added that like an hour ago, its just at the top

I'm trying to have them keep it updated.


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nath
the second coming of the second coming


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: kitchma]
      #12545696 - 10/17/07 04:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

serious question (don't wanna start a thread over this) and i don't think this has been discussed, but how likely is it that this whole scandal could be used to define poker as unlawful gaming in UIEGA?




As has been suggested by others, this scandal will be used against us unless the larger poker community gets out in front of it. I posted in the legislation forum that I view this as a test for the PPA. I would hope that they are currently writing up talking points for anyone who interacts with the media and that they are coordinating responses from the other poker sites. This is an incredible opportunity/threat depending on how it is handled. We'll see.



here be my initial attempt at spin


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sightless
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: jakeduke]
      #12545717 - 10/17/07 04:51 PM

Quote:

The people in that digg thread are tilting me hard.




one thing I hate on Digg is all the idiots that post comments there


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netstorm
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: nath]
      #12545719 - 10/17/07 04:51 PM

The article where the NYTimes is referring to is the old one. Shouldn't a mod edit that OP aswell and post a link to this new cliff notes thread??

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Dan Druff
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: TehVader]
      #12545720 - 10/17/07 04:51 PM

Here's what a lot of you have been waiting for... I got that phone call from AP.

But before I go into that, I need to post an important retraction to something I said earlier. I mentioned at one point that 1994 WSOP Champion Russ Hamilton owns Absolute Poker, and was responsible for the AP/UB purchase last year. THIS IS FALSE. I was unfortunatley given bad information about Russ by a source that is usually reliable. I apologize to Mr. Hamilton and to anyone who was misled by that statement. In fact, I would appreciate if the mods could remove that short post of mine (in the previous AP cheating thread), as I now believe it to be untrue.

Now, onto the AP phone call....

Yesterday, I spoke to AP and told them I wasn't going to be playing there until this matter was resolved to my satisfaction. Given that I have been one of their most active players over the past 2 years, they became concerned about my departure, and promised me a phone call from one of their managers.

Indeed, I received a phone call from Roger, who I have spoken to before concerning other matters in the past. At first, he attempted to deny that a superuser exists. I stopped him and told him everything I knew -- basically a rehash of all that has been posted here over the past month. He acknowledged hearing this information before, and said he has been following all of the 2+2 threads about the situation. I then went on to tell him the following...

There is too much evidence out there at this point for AP to be able to deny that this occurred. AP's continuing to make statments like the two we've seen serve only to make people angry and frustrated. Nobody here is interested in reading carefully-prepared corporate statements about how nothing nefarious occurred. There are a lot of really smart people on 2+2, and none of us will buy it in the face of everything else we know. What we have all been looking for are truthful and plausible answers to all of our questions.

I asked Roger to answer the following questions for me:

1) How do they explain the "perfect" play of POTRIPPER and the other accused cheaters, if there is no superuser involved?

2) What is the story with account 363?

3) What were the IP addresses of GRAYCAT, STEAMROLLER, DOUBLEDRAG, and POTRIPPER? Did they match their listed geographic locations? Were any in Costa Rica?

4) Where were SUPERCARDM55 and REYMNALDO (chip dump recipients) located? Did they cash out? Are they from Costa Rica?

5) What is the relationship between the 4 suspected cheaters and those accounts they dumped to?

6) Have you spoken on the phone to GRAYCAT, STEAMROLLER, POTRIPPER, and DOUBLEDRAG? What did they say? How did they explain the chip dumping? Did they admit to playing on those accounts?

Roger took notes on all of my questions. He promised to get answers for me later today.

Then he asked one question that sounded promising -- the first thing I've heard from an AP employee that gives me hope. He asked me if the players would be satisfied if we were to simply be returned the money that we lost to GRAYCAT, STEAMROLLER, POTRIPPER, and DOUBLEDRAG. Keeping in mind that I was probably speaking for a lot of the people involved, I answered the following:

Our biggest problem is the fact that we were cheated out of a lot of money -- about $700,000 in preliminary estimates. Our other big problem is the fact that we are being stonewalled about the situation and are not being dealt with honestly. It's frustrating to know that the high-limit AP community was cheated out of nearly a million dollars. It's arugably more frustrating for Absolute to deny that it happened, especially given all that has come out. If everyone affected could be compensated, it would be a HUGE step in the right direction, as it would make it clear to everyone that AP is interested in making the situation right.

I told Roger that I understood AP's situation. I said that I realized that they're "damned if they do, damned if they don't", regarding owning up to the superuser situation. If they admit their games were compromised by an insider with access to hole cards, it will be a huge story and nobody will trust their games again. If they stick to their bogus claim that no cheating occurred, everyone will be angry and feel cheated, as the existing mountain of evidence clearly says otherwise.

Roger was quick to agree with me, and in fact acted as if I hit upon something that he has been dealing with for a long time.

"Exactly. We can't win either way," he said.

I told him that I knew of a way that everyone could come out relatively happy.

There's no doubt that chip-dumping occurred on a massive scale. Chip-dumping is very much against AP rules, and obviously anyone engaging in it in such huge amounts is up to something no-good. It's not like it was a case of me dumping to another known player as a means to trade chips between sites. These were completely unknown accounts dumping to one another, and never being seen again. Surely AP could not be blamed for confiscating the money belonging to these chip-dumpers. Therefore, if the money from these accounts could be returned to those they won it from, on the basis that the accounts were closed for chip dumping, this would be a way that AP could legitimately return the money to the victims without admitting that a superuser account exists. Basically, they'd just be confiscating money from shady accounts (based upon the chip-dumping) and returning it to where it originally came from (instead of just keeping it on AP). Nobody has to admit to a superuser. Nobody has to admit that cheating went down. The affected parties will have their money back. There's no ideal solution to this mess, but I feel that this is probably the closest we can get to it.

Roger told me that my suggestion sounded reasonable, and that he would discuss it with other managers and the site owners. He promised to get back to me about everything by 3:00pm PDT.

Before I ended the phone call, I reminded Roger that we're all sick of rhetoric and carefully-worded corporate statements. Nobody is going to be satisfied until this is actually taken care of, and flat denials that anything unjust occurred does not equate to taking care of it. I told him again that a return of the stolen money would be generally seen as a VERY positive step on AP's part.

Let's face it, guys. While it would be wonderful for Absolute to fully own up to everything that has been found here, it would be suicide for the company. If they were to admit to the abuse of a superuser account -- especially by a former/current employee -- it would likely be picked up by the media everywhere. Major poker magazines would be all over it, blogs and internet news agencies (maybe even Drudge) would be all over it, and it might even make it onto the mainstream television and print news. AP has their own future to think about. They can't and won't destroy their own business just to satisfy those who were harmed by this. While it would be great for us to see AP announce, "Yes, there was a superuser. Yes, everyone was right all along. Yes, it was an inside job. Yes, we are giving everyone their money back", this is not something we can realistically expect, given the fallout that would occur.

The lightning struck once with AP. It won't strike again. If there was a superuser, you can bet there isn't one anymore. If certain employees or ex-employees had the idea that they could cheat and get away with it, they now know better. Quite honestly, I doubt this sort of thing will ever happen again at Absolute Poker. They've been put through such hell over this, and I'm sure they will be careful not to let this repeat.

At the same time, there's the issue about what already happened. They can't just sweep this under the rug and expect everyone to dismiss the fact that ~$700,000 was stolen from the high-limit community there. The money has to be returned. If it isn't, we can never forgive AP. If we get every stolen dollar back, I vote we give them another chance.

I will report again when I receive the phone call this afternoon.


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jgunnip
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Johnny#5]
      #12545730 - 10/17/07 04:52 PM

Quote:

Digg #412

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/20...lown-wide-open/

2P2 STORY OF THE MILLENIUM




#466 now and counting


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netstorm
old hand


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Dan Druff]
      #12545793 - 10/17/07 04:56 PM

Quote:

Then he asked one question that sounded promising -- the first thing I've heard from an AP employee that gives me hope. He asked me if the players would be satisfied if we were to simply be returned the money that we lost to GRAYCAT, STEAMROLLER, POTRIPPER, and DOUBLEDRAG.


that's your confession, right there

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N 82 50 24
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Dan Druff]
      #12545802 - 10/17/07 04:57 PM

nice post dan, i can't wait to hear more

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poker1O1
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: albedoa]
      #12545812 - 10/17/07 04:57 PM

The word is spreading sooo fast. Im so anxious to see what happens. Keep spreading the word.

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GildwulfModerator
BBV4LIFE


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: jgunnip]
      #12545813 - 10/17/07 04:57 PM

Quote:


The lightning struck once with AP. It won't strike again. If there was a superuser, you can bet there isn't one anymore.




Given how AP has handled the situation so far how can you possibly say this? We just basically scratched the surface of the idiots who were so obvious that observers picked it up. Anyone with half a brain who has access to this kind of information is not going to be making those kind of mistakes again.


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Jehaim
Hero bets $1


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: SL__72]
      #12545817 - 10/17/07 04:58 PM

Nine.com............................

They said i had no $ balance, i had to send them screeenshots of my account to prove I had..


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dibbs
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Dan Druff]
      #12545828 - 10/17/07 04:59 PM

Awesome Druff thanks for your work in all this.

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ibluffoldladies
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Gildwulf]
      #12545840 - 10/17/07 05:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:


The lightning struck once with AP. It won't strike again. If there was a superuser, you can bet there isn't one anymore.




Given how AP has handled the situation so far how can you possibly say this? We just basically scratched the surface of the idiots who were so obvious that observers picked it up. Anyone with half a brain who has access to this kind of information is not going to be making those kind of mistakes again.




QFMFT
As I've shouted before, the big problem is you won't be able to ever detect this kind of cheat without regulation.


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KurtSF
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: SL__72]
      #12545842 - 10/17/07 05:00 PM

Quote:

Dude, they added that like an hour ago, its just at the top

I'm trying to have them keep it updated.




It should be kept in order, so as not to confuse new readers (and so as not to confuse me, who checked before I posted but missed it at the top).


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vandyhawk
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Dan Druff]
      #12545865 - 10/17/07 05:01 PM

Quote:

There's no doubt that chip-dumping occurred on a massive scale. Chip-dumping is very much against AP rules, and obviously anyone engaging in it in such huge amounts is up to something no-good. It's not like it was a case of me dumping to another known player as a means to trade chips between sites. These were completely unknown accounts dumping to one another, and never being seen again. Surely AP could not be blamed for confiscating the money belonging to these chip-dumpers. Therefore, if the money from these accounts could be returned to those they won it from, on the basis that the accounts were closed for chip dumping, this would be a way that AP could legitimately return the money to the victims without admitting that a superuser account exists. Basically, they'd just be confiscating money from shady accounts (based upon the chip-dumping) and returning it to where it originally came from (instead of just keeping it on AP). Nobody has to admit to a superuser. Nobody has to admit that cheating went down. The affected parties will have their money back. There's no ideal solution to this mess, but I feel that this is probably the closest we can get to it.




I don't think this would actually satisfy people that much, but now that the AP managers have it in their heads, that's probably what they'll claim.


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Dids
CARDS IS FUN


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Jehaim]
      #12545866 - 10/17/07 05:01 PM

Dan,

That's a nice solution for the people who lost money, but I don't think it's going to work.

I can't see how there's not an outcome for that doesn't involve AP somehow "suffering" (for lack of a better word) for lying to the public for a month. I don't really see anything beyond a full admission that they [censored] up/got screwed as being a viable resolution.

The cat is jsut way too far out the bag for them to go back and blaim this all on chip dumbing. Doing that just fuels the "omg online poker is rigged" crowd.


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GildwulfModerator
BBV4LIFE


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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: ibluffoldladies]
      #12545868 - 10/17/07 05:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


The lightning struck once with AP. It won't strike again. If there was a superuser, you can bet there isn't one anymore.




Given how AP has handled the situation so far how can you possibly say this? We just basically scratched the surface of the idiots who were so obvious that observers picked it up. Anyone with half a brain who has access to this kind of information is not going to be making those kind of mistakes again.




QFMFT
As I've shouted before, the big problem is you won't be able to ever detect this kind of cheat without regulation.




even if someone makes 2 or 3 small mistakes an hour (trying to bluff kings off a hand or something) on purpose it is enough to go unnoticed as long as they don't chip dump. There is probably a thin line between the best limit player in the world like Hoss or Schneids and a superuser that makes a half a dozen mistakes an hour.


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KurtSF
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Dan Druff]
      #12545869 - 10/17/07 05:01 PM

Quote:

If they were to admit to the abuse of a superuser account -- especially by a former/current employee -- it would likely be picked up by the media everywhere. Major poker magazines would be all over it, blogs and internet news agencies (maybe even Drudge) would be all over it, and it might even make it onto the mainstream television and print news.




Oops. Too late, me thinks.


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TheOneWizard
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Dan Druff]
      #12545871 - 10/17/07 05:01 PM

Dan Druff,

While it's encouraging they're offering to refund the money it sounds like they're trying a "If-we-just-give-you-the-money-back-will-you-all-go-away remedy." Sounds like they still want to sweep it under the rug.


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GoRedBirds
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: KurtSF]
      #12545872 - 10/17/07 05:01 PM

Quote:

If we get every stolen dollar back, I vote we give them another chance.



NAY

ETA: Goofyballer's post ~10 posts below here describes the only way trust in AP can be regained imo, and the only way I'd ever play on that site.

Edited by GoRedBirds (10/17/07 05:11 PM)


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sbj
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: GoRedBirds]
      #12545885 - 10/17/07 05:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

If we get every stolen dollar back, I vote we give them another chance.



NAY




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Jehaim
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Dan Druff]
      #12545890 - 10/17/07 05:03 PM

Quote:


I told him that I knew of a way that everyone could come out relatively happy.

There's no doubt that chip-dumping occurred on a massive scale. Chip-dumping is very much against AP rules, and obviously anyone engaging in it in such huge amounts is up to something no-good. It's not like it was a case of me dumping to another known player as a means to trade chips between sites. These were completely unknown accounts dumping to one another, and never being seen again. Surely AP could not be blamed for confiscating the money belonging to these chip-dumpers. Therefore, if the money from these accounts could be returned to those they won it from, on the basis that the accounts were closed for chip dumping, this would be a way that AP could legitimately return the money to the victims without admitting that a superuser account exists. Basically, they'd just be confiscating money from shady accounts (based upon the chip-dumping) and returning it to where it originally came from (instead of just keeping it on AP). Nobody has to admit to a superuser. Nobody has to admit that cheating went down. The affected parties will have their money back. There's no ideal solution to this mess, but I feel that this is probably the closest we can get to it.

Roger told me that my suggestion sounded reasonable, and that he would discuss it with other managers and the site owners.




Nice job posting this on a public forum.....



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aaronbeen
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Jehaim]
      #12545893 - 10/17/07 05:03 PM

Dan Druff I fail to see how this proposed solution gets AP out of trouble. A few weeks ago it might have worked to blackmail them and get the money back but at this point the information is already out there. Another announcement "blah blah chip dumping blah blah we gave ikestoys back his money" won't make people like Levitt any less interested in the story. It won't stop AP employees from leaking as long as somone wants to hear what really happened. Mass media coverage is coming regardless of whether resitution is made. I love the idea of the victims getting repaid but I think AP is going to be forced into a confession at this point.

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suzzer99
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Dan Druff]
      #12545895 - 10/17/07 05:03 PM

Quote:

If there was a superuser, you can bet there isn't one anymore. If certain employees or ex-employees had the idea that they could cheat and get away with it, they now know better. Quite honestly, I doubt this sort of thing will ever happen again at Absolute Poker. They've been put through such hell over this, and I'm sure they will be careful not to let this repeat.





I mostly agree with what you posted. But I don't share your faith on this point at all. However I'm not stuck any money to the cheaters either, so I have a different perspective.


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Alobar
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: KurtSF]
      #12545904 - 10/17/07 05:03 PM

wow, reading the comments on digg is very depressing and why I wish this never would have made the front page.

so much for any new fish anytime soon


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byronkincaid
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Dan Druff]
      #12545911 - 10/17/07 05:04 PM

Quote:

Nobody has to admit to a superuser. Nobody has to admit that cheating went down




Unless they do nobody's ever gonna play there again. I appreciate you've lost a lot of money and want it back but AP need to come clean about everything, apologise and explain how they're gonna keep their games clean from now on. That may, just may mean that they stay in business. If they don't they're dead. Because we know too much now for them to try to keep stuff hiden.


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FaDi
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: sbj]
      #12545914 - 10/17/07 05:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

If we get every stolen dollar back, I vote we give them another chance.



NAY







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Phil153
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Dan Druff]
      #12545920 - 10/17/07 05:04 PM

Quote:

The lightning struck once with AP. It won't strike again. If there was a superuser, you can bet there isn't one anymore. If certain employees or ex-employees had the idea that they could cheat and get away with it, they now know better. Quite honestly, I doubt this sort of thing will ever happen again at Absolute Poker. They've been put through such hell over this, and I'm sure they will be careful not to let this repeat.



Your long worded theory about how this went down turned out to be bogus. It looks like it's the owners/ex-owners/executives or their friends doing this, and if that's the case, there are no such guarantees.

I agree with returning the money. I disagree with everything else. The best thing they can do in the long run is come clean and take the hit. I will never trust a company that covers this up, and a lot of others feel the same way. Their whole security system - and possibly some of their owners - are rotten to the core and this needs to be publicly exposed, by Absolute, and steps publicly taken to ensure it doesn't happen again. Such as allowing a full audit and overhaul of their systems by a well known security company. Such as removing these corrupt part-owners/managers from any influence in the company.


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fusting1234
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Alobar]
      #12545921 - 10/17/07 05:05 PM

Quote:

wow, reading the comments on digg is very depressing and why I wish this never would have made the front page.

so much for any new fish anytime soon




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teddyFBI
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: KurtSF]
      #12545924 - 10/17/07 05:05 PM

Thanks DD: one issue, though, which i think u need to keep in mind for ur next phone call >> it's not JUST a return of the stolen funds (6K in my case...at LEAST...that was just to doubledrag but who knows if there were other cheaters out there who had superuser access but were just smarter than those we caught).

If Absolute wants us to come back, we need to understand just how we can be 100% certain that they eliminated the superuser capability...every time we get a bluff called, or a donkey seems to be winning big, it'll be in the back of our minds: "maybe, that superuser thing is still around...but the cheaters are smarter now..."

It's def a tough spot for Absolute, but merely returning the stolen funds won't be enough to get me back to playing there until I get a fuller debriefing of just how they can be so sure that they shut down the superuser access for good. How can they do that without admitting that there WAS a superuser? Meh, I'm not really sure, but those of us who have seen the evidence are already 100% certain of that fact anyway, so merely returning my money I'll just see as a half-measure...albeit one in the right direction.


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1p0kerboy
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: GoRedBirds]
      #12545930 - 10/17/07 05:05 PM

Quote:

I don't really see anything beyond a full admission that they [censored] up/got screwed as being a viable resolution.




QFT.


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The Funky Llama
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Dan Druff]
      #12545933 - 10/17/07 05:05 PM

Quote:

I vote we give them another chance.




Are you kidding me? How would you ever play on Absolute poker again??? They have lied to me a bunch of times in the past (and admitted doing so). This is nothing new.


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sethypooh21
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: netstorm]
      #12545939 - 10/17/07 05:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Then he asked one question that sounded promising -- the first thing I've heard from an AP employee that gives me hope. He asked me if the players would be satisfied if we were to simply be returned the money that we lost to GRAYCAT, STEAMROLLER, POTRIPPER, and DOUBLEDRAG.


that's your confession, right there




Not at all. At least not in a legal sense. "What would it take to make this go away?" is not the same as "I did it. How much do I owe." We have to remember not to get carried away and forget the distinction between what we know and have proved, what we suspect and can reasonably infer, and what is pure speculation at this point. I think we're doing a pretty good job to this point. Let's keep that up.


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jgunnip
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: N 82 50 24]
      #12545941 - 10/17/07 05:06 PM

Quote:

nice post dan, i can't wait to hear more




however Dan, I think its way too early to even consider giving AP another chance. This story is starting to pick up some serious steam and the way AP handles will go a long way in the decision of many to even consider going back or even signing up for AP.

I've never had an AP account however I know a few casual poker playing friends who do and as of right now they no longer have any funds on that site and don't plan to in the future.

Yes to some extent AP might have been victimized by a couple employees on the inside but my greater concerns are the overall implications to the online poker industry as a whole. If this can be a lesson to other major sites in taking the necessary steps in securing their networks and preventing leaks of the nature seen at AP, this could be a big step in improving the quality of the industry as a whole.


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PartyGirlUK
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: GoRedBirds]
      #12545943 - 10/17/07 05:06 PM

Druff, any solution whereby they come out and tell more lies is unacceptable. They to take tell the truth, whole truth, nothing but the truth. They need to get rid of anyone and everyone involved in the debacle, refund all parties, and implement sweeping security changes.

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goofyballer
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: sbj]
      #12545959 - 10/17/07 05:07 PM

Well, if they don't admit wrongdoing and the existence of superusers, their integrity will take a permanent hit. It won't be as bad if it's a "but we acknowledge chip dumping and are giving the money back, wink wink nudge nudge," but it's still less than an ideal response given all the evidence that has appeared.

If they were to admit wrongdoing, then their integrity will still take a hit...with the difference being that coming clean affords them the opportunity to restore that integrity. If they were to admit:
- We had superuser accounts for testing purposes/whatever reason they were there
- They were not designed to be used ever again
- Certain executives within the company (Scott Tom, AJ Green) made an unfortunate decision to utilize these accounts to cheat other players for their personal gain

...and then fire all of those douchebags and anyone else that was complicit in the operation, and rebuild management from the ground up with some experts that the poker community might actually trust. For example, pay Lee Jones a shitton of money to leave the EPT and manage their room and give him access to everything. Everyone trusts Lee Jones! I know I would.


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Clayton
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: sbj]
      #12545976 - 10/17/07 05:09 PM

Todd,

In your next phonecall with Absolute I think you definitely need to address the fact that there is new information from sources that identify POTRIPPER as AJ Green, the former director of operations at Absolute

Excellent work thus far, sir!


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goofyballer
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Alobar]
      #12545980 - 10/17/07 05:09 PM

Quote:

wow, reading the comments on digg is very depressing and why I wish this never would have made the front page.

so much for any new fish anytime soon




It's a lot better than "so much for showing the poker sites that we won't allow them to get away with stuff like this." All of you greedy ass nits need to look at the bigger picture. Jesus.


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Exitonly
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: 1p0kerboy]
      #12545983 - 10/17/07 05:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I don't really see anything beyond a full admission that they [censored] up/got screwed as being a viable resolution.




QFT.





Sounds like DanDruff got payed off! wtf at being fine w/ that BS escape plan?? (granted, giving the money back to peope that were actually cheated is key, but thats still not close to acceptable imo)


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gumpzilla
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Alobar]
      #12545989 - 10/17/07 05:09 PM

Quote:

wow, reading the comments on digg is very depressing and why I wish this never would have made the front page.

so much for any new fish anytime soon




Dude, 75% of the idiots I encounter at the tables already think it's rigged and they still play. As exhibited by ikestoys, there are even good people who will play in the face of obvious, obvious cheating. Between that and my feelings that the market over here is probably pretty damn saturated, I can't see this making a big difference.


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0evg0
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: goofyballer]
      #12545996 - 10/17/07 05:10 PM

I would trust Lee Jones with my life.

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steve1127
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Dan Druff]
      #12545999 - 10/17/07 05:10 PM

Not a high-limit player, but I think that your suggestion sounds reasonable as far as satisfying the cheated players, but wholly implausible as far as keeping AP's name and reputation unsullied. The story has gotten too hot, gone too far, and been reported on in too many places for it to just dry up at this point. I would be very surprised if major media didn't pick up on it soon.

Beyond the logistical difficulties of trying to keep it somewhat quiet assuming AP refunds the ill-gotten gains - this no longer appears to have been just one rogue programmer. It involves at least one senior ex-employee and possibly one of AP's most public faces (Seif). AP's official statements at the very least hint at a widespread attempt to cover-up what happened, if not at complicity with the scam.

Maybe some will say that if they refund the money lost, that will show their good faith. Personally, I don't know how anybody could trust a company that showed such contempt for their players with their previous statements, and who only begin to hint at admitting something might be wrong when confronted with absolutely (no pun intended) overwhelming evidence. Why would we have any faith that they'd catch future cheats? As has been mentioned ad nauseum, if the superusers had been a little smarter, they might still be making lots of cash right now. Do we really trust Absolute to police cheats in the future?


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egj
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Dan Druff]
      #12546006 - 10/17/07 05:10 PM

Quote:

Therefore, if the money from these accounts could be returned to those they won it from, on the basis that the accounts were closed for chip dumping, this would be a way that AP could legitimately return the money to the victims without admitting that a superuser account exists. Basically, they'd just be confiscating money from shady accounts (based upon the chip-dumping) and returning it to where it originally came from (instead of just keeping it on AP). Nobody has to admit to a superuser. Nobody has to admit that cheating went down. The affected parties will have their money back. There's no ideal solution to this mess, but I feel that this is probably the closest we can get to it.




I would still hold out for a full admission from Absolute. I think it's possible that Absolute can survive this. As far as I can tell, *current* Absolute management was not aware of, and did not condone, the cheating. It was a couple of rogue ex-employees. If they make this as clear as possible, some customers may be able to take their money there again.

To be sure, they're in for an avalanche of negative publicity. But that's coming *no matter what* (indeed, is already coming). Half-measures, like returning money that was chip dumped, will not stem the tide. Best to come clean and take their medicine, and rebuild from there.


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gumpzilla
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: gumpzilla]
      #12546027 - 10/17/07 05:11 PM

Also, everybody is talking about what AP has to do to survive. I really don't think they can, and if they can survive it isn't going to have anything to do with what people do or don't do. Does anybody give them more than a 10% shot to come through this at this point?

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suzzer99
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Phil153]
      #12546030 - 10/17/07 05:11 PM

If AP comes clean, they die. I just don't see anything else happening. No player is that entrenched in a poker site that they wouldn't just pick up and move. Even if someone plays micro-stakes, they're still going to start to worry about cashing out from a crooked company.

If Absolute really owned UB, I would say they should just dissolve AP and try to move everyone over to UB as quietly/quickly as possible. But it sounds like AP's purchase of UB is actually contingent on more gigantic payments over the next 5 years or something - which would presumably all come from AP poker revenue.

Then again if they don't come clean, they probably die as well. Just a little more slowly.

So they really are stuck here.

The good news is every other site out there is definitely sitting up and taking full notice.


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nath
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Re: Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes [Re: Alobar]
      #12546034 - 10/17/07 05:12 PM

Quote:

wow, reading the comments on digg is very depressing and why I wish this never would have made the front page.

so much for any new fish anytime soon



imo it's not as bad as you think it is

lapoker is right, fish who want to gamble will still play. people who thought it was rigged before will still think it's rigged, and weren't going to play anyway.

imo the vocal group is going to be the latter. that's expected. christ, it's the digg comment section, i wouldn't call it an accurate cross-section of the casual poker player demographic


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