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Two Plus Two >> Special Sklansky Forum

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David Sklansky
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Reged: 08/28/02
Posts: 5092

Suppose Horses (or Zebras) Never Existed
#9062066 - 02/05/07 05:41 PM

Wouldn't that have been a disaster for the human race? Believe it or not this thought popped into my head when I was thinking about BASEBALL. And how the old time greats used trains to get from town to town but still used horses for shorter distances. How long would it have taken us to progess from 10,000 BC to 1900, if there weren't horses available? Clearly a lot more than 12,000 years. What's your guess? Mine is somewhere between 50,000 to never.

Or am I missing something? Would we have found some other animal? Or created one. Camels and elephants are somewhat useful. Would we have figured out a way back then to get them to do for us what horses did?

If horses were truly as indispensible as I think, is that evidence for God?

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KenProspero
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Reged: 07/31/04
Posts: 1408

Re: Suppose Horses (or Zebras) Never Existed [Re: David Sklansky]
#9062783 - 02/05/07 06:41 PM

Humanity is extraordinarily clever, using the tools that are provided to mold our environment.

Horses provide an incredible mix of speed and are incredibly versatile. However, I think there is little that is about them that is unique that would effect civilization in ways you claim.

For example, Hannibal crossed the Alps with Elephants in his battles with Rome. In agriculture, Oxen can be used to drag plows at least as well as horses. Oxen have also been yoked together to draw wagons -- i.e., used for transportation.

The Horse's main advantages are speed and agility. However, it is questionable whether speed is essential for societal evolution. In fact, one could argue that the speed and agility of Horses is incredibly useful in war, and that the destruction of war has hampered humanities progress.

In any event, though Horses are incredibly useful for many purposes, I don't think they are unique in enough that it would have hampered civilization significantly. My guess

12,000 years of progress with a horse -- 6,000 - 15,000 years. The shorter time because of less war potential (though man is so inventive that we probably would have come up with alternatives), so most likely 13,000-15,000 range.

Two more points -- I don't think Zebras are rideable in the same way that Horses Are.

If we're looking for evolutionary developments as evidence of God, I think that a better argument can be made for the opposable thumb than horses.

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DivideByZero
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Reged: 01/21/07
Posts: 30

Re: Suppose Horses (or Zebras) Never Existed [Re: KenProspero]
#9062950 - 02/05/07 06:54 PM

Interesting question.

Perhaps without horses, man would be faster today. If speed aids in survival (hunting, escaping danger), clearly the fastest humans would have eventually dominated the gene pool.

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chezlaw
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Reged: 01/13/04
Posts: 6642
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Re: Suppose Horses (or Zebras) Never Existed [Re: David Sklansky]
#9063214 - 02/05/07 07:15 PM

I think you're right about camels/elephants. Camels do the same job as horses don't they? and man would have driven the evolution of these in the same way they did for horses.

The steam train might have been invented much earlier, even those dozy Greeks might have linked their steam engine to some wheels if they hadn't had any horses about.

Its no more evidence for god than the absence of the gazeebalob is evidence against god.

chez

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sam h
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Reged: 09/02/02
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Re: Suppose Horses (or Zebras) Never Existed [Re: chezlaw]
#9063314 - 02/05/07 07:22 PM

I think it would have set humanity back some, but not as much as you think. Camels or oxen would probably have been pressed into service by most of the civilizations on the Eurasian landmass.

Its worth mentioning though that Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel claims that the presence or absence of large domesticatable animals like horses is one of the main factors that shaped the rapidity with which civilizations advanced in the north and south of the globe. It turns out that there really aren't that many candidates for this kind of thing. If you took away oxen and camels too, we might still be in the bronze age.

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leaponthis
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Reged: 12/25/06
Posts: 250

Re: Suppose Horses (or Zebras) Never Existed [Re: David Sklansky]
#9063468 - 02/05/07 07:32 PM

Quote:

If horses were truly as indispensible as I think, is that evidence for God?

Do you think that is why Barabro had to die? Halelulah!

leaponthis

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leaponthis
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Reged: 12/25/06
Posts: 250

Re: Suppose Horses (or Zebras) Never Existed [Re: leaponthis]
#9063504 - 02/05/07 07:34 PM

oops Barbaro.

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Hoi Polloi
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Reged: 11/23/04
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Re: Suppose Horses (or Zebras) Never Existed [Re: David Sklansky]
#9063559 - 02/05/07 07:38 PM

Quote:

If horses were truly as indispensible as I think, is that evidence for God?

All kinds of problems with this question. To start, indispensible for what? This is begging the question, no?

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leaponthis
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Reged: 12/25/06
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For David and others. [Re: David Sklansky]
#9063642 - 02/05/07 07:45 PM

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/horses/horsepower.html

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Gobgogbog
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Reged: 09/07/05
Posts: 1734

Re: Suppose Horses (or Zebras) Never Existed [Re: David Sklansky]
#9065869 - 02/05/07 10:33 PM

Quote:

If horses were truly as indispensible as I think, is that evidence for God?

I'm failing to see how this would be anything but a far worse argument for ID than even the young earth creationists can muster.

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