Niediam
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/26/05 04:12 AM
When do move up from NL25?

What approximate win rate (after a significant # of hands of course) do you think should one should have at NL25 before making the move to NL50?

Thanks a lot.


AllIn3High
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/26/05 04:23 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

I'd say if you're winning more than 2PTBB/100 after 20-30K hands and have the proper bankroll for $50NL by all means move up. Just move down if it's not working out.

mudbuddha
(Pooh-Bah)
08/26/05 04:23 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

when you have enough buy ins to plya at 50$ NL

whittiphil
(old hand)
08/26/05 04:27 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

I've resolved not to move up untill I've played 10k hands and have beaten it for more than 10PTBB/100.

So far I've played 2500 hands and am at 25PTBB/100 hands.


mudbuddha
(Pooh-Bah)
08/26/05 04:34 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

nice run of cards eh ?

whittiphil
(old hand)
08/26/05 05:09 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Yeah... at 1800 hands I was at 50PTBB and I thought it would never end. But it did. Dropped 6 buyins over 2 hours. But I was still killing with 25PTBB. When I was destroying for 50PTBB I had dreams of making 100k next year

Niediam
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/26/05 01:34 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

I really don't see the reasoning behind saying that somebody who is barely winning should move up...

ryanghall
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/26/05 01:36 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

As long as you're beating that game for a reasonable amount, you should move up when you have around $1,000.

Allin suggested 2PTBB/100, which is fine, though you should probably be beating that game for more than that unless you have serious leaks.

Ryan


TheWorstPlayer
(HoldEmKillah)
08/26/05 01:44 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Move up because if you can beat NL25 for 2-3PTBB/100 you can probably beat NL50 for 2-3PTBB/100 and you'll make twice the cash. But if you are only beating NL25 for 2-3PTBB/100 you should be really working on your game and not worrying about when to move up. It should be beaten for 5-10PTBB/100 for anyone with a proper grasp of basic preflop play, value betting, and the ability to fold one pair to a raise.

Anacardo
(One More Victim Of Fate)
08/26/05 01:47 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Quote:

Yeah... at 1800 hands I was at 50PTBB and I thought it would never end. But it did. Dropped 6 buyins over 2 hours. But I was still killing with 25PTBB. When I was destroying for 50PTBB I had dreams of making 100k next year



You thought you could make like $15/hour/table at NL25, indefinitely? Poker rules, but it doesn't rule that much.


DVO
(addict)
08/26/05 05:11 PM
dumb question - what is PT in PTBB?

Thx

Niediam
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/26/05 07:29 PM
Re: dumb question - what is PT in PTBB?

PokerTracker.... 1 PTBB = 2 Big Blinds

Malachii
(Pooh-Bah)
08/26/05 09:30 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

When you have a 1k bankroll, although I have a sneaking suspicion that most 2+2ers are seriously underrolled for whatever limit they currently play at.

mother_brain
(Pooh-Bah)
08/26/05 09:52 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

15 buyins, drop down if you get below 10.

This is the underfunded system that i use.


fimbulwinter
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/27/05 01:35 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Quote:

What approximate win rate (after a significant # of hands of course) do you think should one should have at NL25 before making the move to NL50?

Thanks a lot.




first off you should never view it as a quantum leap kinda thing. just take little shots when you feel comfortable, have the money and are good enough. here's a hand waving yardstick:

try 50NL when:

- you're confident in your preflop game
- you understand position
- you have a good idea of their hand by the river
- you have an ok feel when to continuation bet
- you have 500 or more

100NL when:

- you're confident playing draws
- you can spot good semibluff opportunities
- you can lay down AA/KK unimproved
- you're attacking the blinds in easy steal situations
- you have 1200+

200NL when:

- you're ok betting your stack on a draw
- a PFR from you doesnt always mean AA-JJ and AQs+
- you're starting to play one hand while holding another
- you have more than one mode
- you have 3000 or more

400NL when:

- you can ID profitable preflop steals
- you know how to pick between b3b and c/r
- position factors heavily into your play
- you're good at manipulating pot size
- you have 6000+

1K NL when

- your lines don't define your hand
- you're good at playing and winning lots of small pots
- your oop opponent must hold a strong hand to win a pot from you
- you understand the real math of the game at least at a basal level
- you have 20000+

fim


Isura
(Anonymous Hopeful)
08/27/05 04:23 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Awesome post dude. Makes this game sound easy.

Spaded
(addict)
08/27/05 05:03 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Bankroll grows faster than skill. Play 25K hands or so, but if you make it to $1200 before you hit 25K hands, take out a few hundred and impress your friends.

FlyingStart
(old hand)
12/04/05 11:46 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

This list is awesome, I looked it up because of a referanse in a recent post.

If you are reading this/have the time to respond could you explain in a little more detail the following concepts (listed in 400). Any key thoughts greatly appreciated

- When to c/r and when to b3b

I think I understand what you are getting at, in both situations you want to get lots of money in the pot, but you want to pick the line that puts the most money in the pot. But is this mostly read dependant or more dependant on the texture of the bord? I.e. a coordinated bord versus a flop with a dry texture, which line do you choose? I think a case could be made for both. If you checkraise on a coordinated board sometiems villain will suspect a draw and wants to put his money in on the flop, which is good. If you bet villain will most likely raise (to charge draws/win the pot) if he has an overpair/TP. If he does, you can threebet, but that might shut down action from villain? esp. if turn helps draws he knows he is either beat by straight/flush or a set.

- ID profitably PF steals

On your list I think this is the only concept where I'm totally lost, and I never put it to practice. I think I understand to some degree what the move is about (squeeze plays and the sort), but haven't really put much thought into it. I sometimes make big reraises and CB from the blinds tho, when I feel someone is abusing the button/CO, but I'm not sure this fits in the category?


TheByb
(member)
12/04/05 12:55 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

10PTBB/100?

I don't know how realistic that is.

After about 100K, I'm at 9.5.


TheByb
(member)
12/04/05 12:58 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Easily makes my top ten list of most valuable things I've read on this forum.

Ness
(Pooh-Bah)
12/04/05 01:03 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Quote:

10PTBB/100?

I don't know how realistic that is.

After about 100K, I'm at 9.5.




I don't think beating the 25NL or 50NL for more than 10ptbb/100 is unrealistic at all.


TheByb
(member)
12/04/05 01:16 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Then I must just suck.

Ness
(Pooh-Bah)
12/04/05 01:18 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

You are 9.5 after 100K, I wouldn't call that sucking. I just don't know why you would think 10ptbb/100 is unrealistic, especially since you are so close yourself. Unless you think you have milked that game for everything its worth.

rachelwxm
(old hand)
12/05/05 01:15 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Quote:

Quote:

10PTBB/100?

I don't know how realistic that is.

After about 100K, I'm at 9.5.




I don't think beating the 25NL or 50NL for more than 10ptbb/100 is unrealistic at all.




It's trivial for any winning player who play at 100NL or above to sustain a >10ptbb/100 at 25NL. I believe that rate is doable at 100NL but require some serious work.


beavens
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/05/05 01:20 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

after about 8k hands at 25NL i was at about 20PTBB/100 or so. i had enough $ to try out 50NL and i've been playing there for a few days.

i think when you have a decent winrate the BR will come.

and when you get the 15-20 buyins you should definitely give it a try.


waxie
(Pooh-Bah)
12/16/05 09:12 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

I just like to open push.

Johan L
(addict)
12/19/05 03:21 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

I win some at NL 25$. When I take shots at NL50$ or NL100$ I win some but experience larger V which is something I donīt like. When moving down to NL 25$ again my game is much better from having played some at a higher level. Hence I agree with the posts saying u should take occational shots for the higher level. Maybe make some extra effort tofind a descent table. There are donks on NL 50 aswell.
gl


thedustbustr
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/19/05 03:31 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Quote:

Maybe make some extra effort tofind a descent table. There are donks on NL 50 aswell.



I will go as far to say that there are equally many donks at 50NL. If you can beat 25NL for 10K hands, and have > ~500 bucks, take a shot for two buyins. If variance doesn't smack you in the face, stay up =)


ThaHero
(Pooh-Bah)
12/19/05 05:07 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Am I crazy for taking a shot at 100NL with only $500? And 4 tabling at that. lol. I'm a maniac.

4_2_it
(Donktastic)
12/19/05 05:09 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Quote:

Am I crazy for taking a shot at 100NL with only $500? And 4 tabling at that. lol. I'm a maniac.




Gamboooooooooool!!!!!


thedustbustr
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/19/05 05:37 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Quote:

Am I crazy for taking a shot at 100NL with only $500? And 4 tabling at that. lol. I'm a maniac.



I started at 10NL with a $50 bankroll four tabling =) I used to get real pissed when I got sucked out on.


Mike Jett
(Moody INTP)
01/06/06 01:51 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Quote:

Quote:

Am I crazy for taking a shot at 100NL with only $500? And 4 tabling at that. lol. I'm a maniac.



I started at 10NL with a $50 bankroll four tabling =) I used to get real pissed when I got sucked out on.




Where are you at now?

These numbers are putting my NL SNG idea to shame.....


thedustbustr
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/06/06 02:17 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

I assume you are addressing me? I started playing poker "for real" (moving beyond donktastic play in $5 tournies at school) in September 2005 with my $50 roll at NL10. I 4-tabled right off the bat after learning that "tight is right".

I currently 4 table NL100 with a bankroll of about 40 buyins. I could move up I guess but I'm not happy with my winrate at NL100. [edit: small sample size, 15k hands, yada yada yada, regardless I am not achieving the results that I feel I am capable of) I'll be down here for 20k more hands at least. And I still bonus whore every opportunity I get. I rarely play without a bonus.

By the time I move up to the 200s I'll be rediculously overrolled, which is great for building confidence. Variance be damned when I move up. "When Sup Bro moves up in stakes, you will know it"

edit: I spelled confidence with an s


fadedstar
(old hand)
01/06/06 02:34 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

I would move down to NL10 if i could.

Lol.


FreakDaddy
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/06/06 03:20 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Quote:


200NL when:

- you're ok betting your stack on a draw
- a PFR from you doesnt always mean AA-JJ and AQs+
- you're starting to play one hand while holding another
- you have more than one mode
- you have 3000 or more





Good post. I still don't find this to be true at this level though. *Sometimes* rarely against other decent players. I feel like this is still -EV, or I'm just not representing the hand well enough.


Ratamahatta
(Third World Ballah)
01/06/06 03:47 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

I was thinking, wouldn't it be great to make a guide from this post? We could find a post that discusses each guideline and make a link to it. So for instance you could click on "- you understand position" and get a list of posts that discusses importens of position and hand analysis where position was a major factor.

Nepthu
(addict)
01/06/06 03:53 AM
Re: dumb question - what is PT in PTBB?

I pretty sure one big bet is 2 big blinds. I don't have pokertracker but when it says bb I'm pretty sure it stands for big bets and not big blinds. I don't know why everyone calls them PTBB instead of big bets though.

chicagoY
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/06/06 04:39 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

That was one of the best posts I think I've ever read here. Even though I play at the lowest level, this was a truly helpful guide.

Niediam
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/06/06 04:44 AM
Re: dumb question - what is PT in PTBB?

Because there is no such thing as a 'big bet' in no limit poker.

Nepthu
(addict)
01/06/06 01:44 PM
Re: dumb question - what is PT in PTBB?

Makes sense though.

GBP04
()
01/06/06 03:06 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

great post...

may I ask what a good bankroll is to be playing NL cash games? I seem to think 20 buy ins is fine if you are willing to step down?

What is the accepted number?


mosuavea
(Mayor of Weaktightville)
01/06/06 03:09 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Q: What's the proper bankroll for each limit?

A: General consensus is that a player should keep at least 20 buyins for each limit he's playing. Excluding poor beginner play, bad bankroll management is the biggest reason that new players go bust. Do yourself a favor and only play in games you can afford.

Limit: $0.01/$0.02 | Needed: $40 ($100 on Stars)
Limit: $0.05/$0.10 | Needed: $200
Limit: $0.10/$0.25 | Needed: $500
Limit: $0.25/$0.50 | Needed: $1000
Limit: $0.50/$1.00 | Needed: $2000
Limit: $1.00/$2.00 | Needed: $4000
Limit: $2.00/$4.00 | Needed: $8000


thedustbustr
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/06/06 07:55 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

According to Fim's excellent reply (scroll up), you don't need 20 full buyins at SSNL if you know yourself to be a winning player. Of course, if you have to ask this question you probably haven't got the history to prove yourself a winning player.

Checkov
(newbie)
02/08/06 04:41 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

What does PTBB stand for?

Niediam
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
02/08/06 05:12 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Poker Tracker Big Bet... or x2 the big blind.

jd_poker
(member)
02/13/06 08:06 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

why am i playing $1/$2 limit if a 10PTBB/10 is sustainable at NL?!?!

BalugaWhale
(Busto on tatas)
02/13/06 08:38 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

First off, this is an amazing thread.

Secondly, only move up when you feel comfortable with your bankroll. I moved up to 50NL at $500 and played weak-tight as hell, so I had to drop down after I was down 150 bones.


Riddick
(banned)
02/13/06 09:03 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

While we are on the subject, what are some attainable winrates at Pot Limit 25's and 50's?

Niediam
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
02/14/06 05:02 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Because they do not have the same level of difficulty.

1/2 limit is the 2nd smallest level on Party but 1/2 no limit is the 4rd smallest level. A lot of B&M poker rooms have 3/6 as the smallest limit game but 1/2 as the smallest no limit game.

In addition, you need a larger bankroll for NL. The standard for limit is 300BBs but for NL it is 2500BBs (25 buyins).


ski
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
02/26/06 04:13 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

BUMP,

I am just reading this for the first time.

There are somethings I don't understand though.

"- a PFR from you doesnt always mean AA-JJ and AQs+"

Currently (200NL) it means one of these hands for me about 80-85%, the rest is PP/SC/Ax or broadways in LP/occasionally a plain steal. I am still ~16-20% PVIP depending on the game

"- your lines don't define your hand"
This is probably big enough to write a book on but isin't this entirely dependant on how intelligent your opponents are?

Sometimes I think that if I was playing against a clone of myself, I would know 100% if I am beat or not in some situations. However, this requires an in depth knowledge of my game that very few players have. Do many players have this type of knowledge at 1000NL?

I miss you fim.


NDHand
(addict)
07/29/06 09:37 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Quote:

Because they do not have the same level of difficulty.

1/2 limit is the 2nd smallest level on Party but 1/2 no limit is the 4rd smallest level. A lot of B&M poker rooms have 3/6 as the smallest limit game but 1/2 as the smallest no limit game.

In addition, you need a larger bankroll for NL. The standard for limit is 300BBs but for NL it is 2500BBs (25 buyins).




Just to clear the confusion ; it's 300 big bets for limit and 2500 big blinds for NL (since there are no big bets in NL)


Erik W
(addict)
09/27/06 09:29 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Quote:

Just to clear the confusion ; it's 300 big bets for limit and 2500 big blinds for NL (since there are no big bets in NL)




There have been lots of discussions about this lately in Limit forums. If you are playing for a living it is 1000 Big Bets now. Many many really good winning players have had down swings of 500+.

500 should be the lowest.


nejah
(stranger)
10/17/06 08:59 AM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

I'm playing NL100 with about 65 buyins atm,
about to move up to play NL200 with somewhat 30buyins.
And I feel underrolled. General concensus around me is that 30 buyins would be the very minimum BR for NL play.
Are we swedes possies or what? =)

And here around I see that you seem to feel 20 is good and
10 might be okay to.


Suigin406
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
10/17/06 03:39 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Quote:

I'm playing NL100 with about 65 buyins atm,
about to move up to play NL200 with somewhat 30buyins.
And I feel underrolled. General concensus around me is that 30 buyins would be the very minimum BR for NL play.
Are we swedes possies or what? =)

And here around I see that you seem to feel 20 is good and
10 might be okay to.




i can't see how 10 buyins is anywhere near good...it restricts play way too much to the point where it is prolly badly hampering ur game...


Albert Moulton
(Pooh-Bah)
10/17/06 03:49 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Quote:

I've resolved not to move up untill I've played 10k hands and have beaten it for more than 10PTBB/100.

So far I've played 2500 hands and am at 25PTBB/100 hands.




I think you have an unrealistic expectation of long term success here. While its true that some players have 100K runs with 10 BB/100 hands, I suspect most winners over that number of hands will be 1BB-5BB/100 hands, with the 5BB/100 being really strong players.

I think your streak is awesome, but don't expect >10BB/100 as a standard before moving up.

I think bankroll is more important. If you have adequate bankroll for 25NL, then play there until you win enough to have an adequate bankroll fo 50NL, and so on. Drop down if the bankroll takes hits. Move up when the bankroll can sustain a shot at the next level. Some levels will go by quickly. And some will go by not so quick.


fearless2k
(member)
05/29/07 08:12 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Thank god, i though i was wastin my time for the past year playin online poker!, with these guys havin win rates of ~10PTBB/100.... my crappy 3BB/100 (over 100k hands) means nothing... (including takin shots and loosing) . the last post has made me feel better

Tickner
(A game of inches...)
05/29/07 10:24 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

While this thread was good 2 years ago, I'm pretty sure it sucks in todays games.

PJo336
(BOOOOOOOOOOM)
06/04/07 08:04 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Quote:

While this thread was good 2 years ago, I'm pretty sure it sucks in todays games.



agreed


townierailer
(member)
06/05/07 02:34 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

So what kind of winrates do you guys expect in today's ssnl games? I'm still shooting for 10ptbb/100 at 200nl... and I've still got a ways to go

DirteAA
(addict)
06/05/07 03:06 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

Quote:

So what kind of winrates do you guys expect in today's ssnl games? I'm still shooting for 10ptbb/100 at 200nl... and I've still got a ways to go




running at 5ptbb/100 is pretty solid, anything over that i would consider to be crushing the game.

if you can play @ party 10 may be doable, but on the other major sites it seems pretty difficult to pull off nowadays.

it also seems that people are more concerned with their hrly rate as opposed to their win rate. if a bunch of 2p2ers only played 1 table at a time i'm sure they would crush their game but we're more interested in 4-12 tabling and making $100+/hr at 100nl and higher.


RFKFREAK
(stranger)
07/07/07 09:11 PM
Re: When do move up from NL25?

I'm curious - how long does it take you guys to play 10k hands?

Mothercanuck
(addict)
07/07/07 09:30 PM
Re: dumb question - what is PT in PTBB?

ive got 80 buys ins for 20nl and 32 buy ins for 50nl...but im still scared to move up...50nl is retarded...I rather plat 100nl than 50nl...think ill be nitty and go to 50nl at 40 buy ins

Casper05
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/07/07 10:40 PM
Re: dumb question - what is PT in PTBB?

I didnt read even the OP in this thread...but move up as soon as you can beat NL25...even if you only have $500. If you lose 2 stacks or whatever move back down, rinse and repeat. First off, 50NL is ridiculously easy, and secondly you'll beat NL25 even better after moving up then down...any decent 25NL player is losing massive amounts of money (to them) by practicing good BR management at that level. BR management is much more important at levels that actually have good deals of variance (ie, 100+...and even then it may start at 200NL)

Nielsio
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/07/07 11:07 PM
Re: dumb question - what is PT in PTBB?

50nl is supereasy. Everyone is superpassive and there are like almost no solid players.

100nl is an entirely different story. Solid regs everywhere and a lot of players who give you headache because they float a ton and they are very aggro.


RFKFREAK
(stranger)
07/07/07 11:11 PM
Re: dumb question - what is PT in PTBB?

Quote:

50nl is supereasy. Everyone is superpassive and there are like almost no solid players.

100nl is an entirely different story. Solid regs everywhere and a lot of players who give you headache because they float a ton and they are very aggro.




So, better to play two tables of $50 than one of $100?


thac
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/07/07 11:26 PM
Re: dumb question - what is PT in PTBB?

Quote:

I didnt read even the OP in this thread...but move up as soon as you can beat NL25...even if you only have $500. If you lose 2 stacks or whatever move back down, rinse and repeat. First off, 50NL is ridiculously easy, and secondly you'll beat NL25 even better after moving up then down...any decent 25NL player is losing massive amounts of money (to them) by practicing good BR management at that level. BR management is much more important at levels that actually have good deals of variance (ie, 100+...and even then it may start at 200NL)




I agree completely, just take shots with a small bankroll if you're beating 25nl for a nice winrate. The play isn't much better (if at all, maybe just tighter), and you'll get paid off by a lot of hands still.

If you're staying at nl25 to get a huge amount of buyins so you don't go bust, just stop and think - people move up with 20 buyins to nl400 (some do, I don't think it's right) and there is SICK variance there. The variance at nl50 is not gonna be very apparent and the only way you SHOULD lose at nl50 is because you get KK v AA 15 times in a session.

That's a bit much, but anyone that actively reads the 2+2 forums and posts hands should be able to beat nl50, and if they can't, they're not reading good enough.



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