raptor517
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 04:30 AM
Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for raptor

heres some build up details..

a couple months ago me and durr were talking crap to each other, and he said he could beat a grandmaster at chess if the GM was playing down a knight. i said lolol so we booked 5k. fast forward a couple months, get a few drinks in me at pf changs, and hes SOOO confident, so we end up betting 50k with the GM down a rook.

fast forward a week later, i get curtains to play for me and give him a 10% freeroll. curtains is an international master, so hes pretty solid, and i dont really know any GMs so i went with the easy route cuz i didnt think it would matter much..

anyways, first 5k game where curtains is down a knight, curtains wins decidedly. we used a 45 minute clock on that one. i also booked 4.5 to 1 somewhere in the middle of the match where curtains had a dominating position for 2k more, so up 7k there. durr had random bets in between to other people, so maybe lost 9k total or something.

for the main event, we were supposed to play a single 50k match with curtains down a rook, but durr wanted to decrease variance or something stupid, so we went with a best of 3 match for 55k total. after seeing the first game, i realized durr didnt have much of a chance, and jcmoussa booked 700 at 3.5 to 1 or something silly with me as well.

anyways, first match just finished, with curtains winning fairly solidly again.. durr was in a few manageable positions, but managed to donk it off with some ill timed moves. so.. 1 more win to go. we ended up coinflipping for all of the details, as in which side the rook/knight would be taken away, and which color would be played. so far durr played white first game with curtains down queen side knight, and white for the first game of the main event with curtains down his king side rook. this next game has durr playing white with curtains down his queen side rook.

anyways, this is probably one of the bigger bets done on chess in history. most people realize what their edge is and wont gamble on it, as you know, its a skill game and all. but yea, im having a good month so far with one of my horsies winning a bracelet, and it looks like its about to get better. details to follow soon..


mrTEA
(old hand)
06/28/07 04:37 AM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

this is [censored] awesome

Jman28
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 04:41 AM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I do have to say, though a great poker player, durrrr is one of the biggest prop betting fish I know.

minnesotasam
(addict)
06/28/07 04:41 AM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

2nd

This is so [censored] baller. Great work rapdurrr.


shaniac
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 04:46 AM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

who won a bracelet for you?

FUJItheFISH
(MicroHULA's Biggest Bitch)
06/28/07 04:48 AM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

well a knight is worth what 3 points? yeah im sure the edge of a guy like curtains on an unskilled chess player is more like 6 points or maybe even more. pretty sick prop bet and great idea raptor. please more videos of jumping off houses.

raptor517
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 04:49 AM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

who won a bracelet for you?




ryan young 1500 nl.


raptor517
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 05:06 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for raptor

Durrr actually played match 1 with Black and is playing match 2 with white now. Should there be a 3rd match he gets white again.

One of the best lines from the chess match #1:

Durrr: damn I screwed up back there, if I didnt make that mistake I couldve won this one.

Curtains: Now let's not get carried away.




-Apathy


TheMadHeater
(member)
06/28/07 05:15 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for raptor

Sick. There's a reason people don't gamble on chess. Well.... normal people.

stetda
(member)
06/28/07 05:19 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I can't even imagine the prop bets that go on in your house Raptor. Nice one.

What's the biggest/craziest prop bet you guys have ever had?


TheMadHeater
(member)
06/28/07 05:21 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for raptor

Also, how does Curtains rate his edge in this game?

Did Durr ever have a chance or did he just bet 60k drawing stone dead....


youcanhaveitall
(*)
06/28/07 05:22 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

raptor I you

bugstud
(Autodraft Expert)
06/28/07 05:22 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

sick. So +ev

grandmaster2
(stranger)
06/28/07 05:23 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

LOL. I switched from chess (Grandmaster 2580 elo) to poker because in poker 'The bad players don't know they are bad'. Makes you wonder...

riverboatking
(veteran)
06/28/07 05:26 AM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

I do have to say, though a great poker player, durrrr is one of the biggest prop betting fish I know.




i wonder if there were any suckers there that put action on durr?
man it would be sweet if someone could've hustled somebody into taking action on durr in a side bet getting only
2-1........


Daddy Warbucks
(1000+ Views)
06/28/07 05:43 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

LOL. I switched from chess (Grandmaster 2580 elo) to poker because in poker 'The bad players don't know they are bad'. Makes you wonder...




In golf the players know they're bad too, but people learn how to handicap.


smilingbill
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 05:53 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

unless durrr is a club level player (which would have been mentioned i guess) this is very very +EV for raptorrrrr

Apathy
(2006 and 2007 HSNL Heads-up Champion)
06/28/07 05:56 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

2nd match about half way or more done now. Curtains said he is in "good" position when Durrr left the room briefly.

Uh oh...


Apathy
(2006 and 2007 HSNL Heads-up Champion)
06/28/07 05:57 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Also Curtains said he can reconstruct the entire match(es) from memory so maybe he would do that for everyone if there is interest (not sure if he would spend time on that or not).

raptor517
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 06:20 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

I can't even imagine the prop bets that go on in your house Raptor. Nice one.

What's the biggest/craziest prop bet you guys have ever had?




this is without a doubt the sickest, though it prob has v v v low variance for me. im pretty much a lock in every respect. durrr = fish


raptor517
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 06:21 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for raptor

Quote:

Also, how does Curtains rate his edge in this game?

Did Durr ever have a chance or did he just bet 60k drawing stone dead....




'i win 100% of the time in this bet' -curtains


TheMadHeater
(member)
06/28/07 06:27 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for raptor

Quote:

Quote:

Also, how does Curtains rate his edge in this game?

Did Durr ever have a chance or did he just bet 60k drawing stone dead....




'i win 100% of the time in this bet' -curtains




I had a feeling.... That's some pretty sick [censored]. 0% chance of beating an IM down a rook. And he originally wanted to play a GM down a knight... What convinced him that this was in any way feasible?


Daddy Warbucks
(1000+ Views)
06/28/07 06:40 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?

warbler
(journeyman)
06/28/07 06:40 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I would love to challenge a GM up a rook!!

raptor517
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 06:50 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?




hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.


raptor517
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 06:52 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for raptor

and... RAPTOR WINS!!! sorry durr durr, very well done curtains.. hes super sick chess player.

EmpireMaker2
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 07:00 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for raptor

durrr another 50k bet is all u can do......

pete fabrizio
(Pooh-Bah)
06/28/07 07:08 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?




hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.




you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.


raptor517
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 07:09 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?




hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.




you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.




its really not as easy as you think.


pahala
(member)
06/28/07 07:14 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I don't think your average Simon Sundayplayer has a chance against an IM even with rook odds, so yeah, this was pretty awful for durr.

I think I could at least draw, probably win, an IM if I had rook odds.


pete fabrizio
(Pooh-Bah)
06/28/07 07:18 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?




hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.




you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.




its really not as easy as you think.




i'm not saying anyone who has ever played the game should be able to win this, but any serious chess player -- even one that's not that good among serious chess players -- should. it's kind of like playing nlh with the button every hand.


undercheck
(stranger)
06/28/07 07:23 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Can you post the games?

Rolen
(old hand)
06/28/07 07:26 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?




hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.




you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.




its really not as easy as you think.




i'm not saying anyone who has ever played the game should be able to win this, but any serious chess player -- even one that's not that good among serious chess players -- should. it's kind of like playing nlh with the button every hand.




Good analogy.


Spechel EDD
(h0t PiNk 4|yf3)
06/28/07 07:41 AM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

did curtains try to pull the:
pawn e2 to e4
queen d1 to f3
bishop f1 to c4
queen takes pawn from f3 to f7 checkmate
gg

move because that wouldve been pretty lol to do


fees
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 07:41 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

wtf is all this rating of chess players... where does this come from?

KakiTee
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 07:45 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?




hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.




you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.




its really not as easy as you think.




i'm not saying anyone who has ever played the game should be able to win this, but any serious chess player -- even one that's not that good among serious chess players -- should. it's kind of like playing PLO with the button every hand.




curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 07:47 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Game 1, I'm white, king's rook is missing. I actually overlooked ...Qxd4.





1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5 3.Nc3 c6 4.Bf4 e6 5.c5 Qa5 6.a3 Bxc5 7.dxc5 Qxc5 8.Rc1 d4 9.Ne4 Qa5+ 10.b4 Qxa3 11.Nd6+ Ke7 12.Qxd4 Nd7 13.e4 Bg6 14.Ra1 c5 15.Qxg7 Qxb4+ 16.Bd2 Qd4 17.Qxd4 cxd4 18.Bb4 Kf6 19.f4 e5 20.f5 Bh5 21.h3 Nh6 22.Bd2 Ke7 23.Nxb7 Rab8 24.Na5 Rhc8 25.Bxh6 f6 26.Bc1 Kf7 27.g4 Nc5 28.gxh5 Nxe4 29.Bc4+ Ke8 30.Ne2 Nd6 31.Be6 Rc7 32.Ba3 Ne4 33.Bd5 Nc5 34.Bc6+ Kf8 35.Bxc5+ Kg7 36.Bd6 Rxc6 37.Nxc6 Rb6 38.Rxa7+ Kh6 39.Bf8+ Kxh5 40.Rxh7+ Kg5 41.Ne7 Rb1+ 42.Kf2 d3 43.Bh6+ Kh4 44.Be3# 1-0



Tulosba
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 07:48 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?




hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.




you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.



That's not true, a piece advantage would likely be enough for me against a GM if it's not a very fast time control. But a pawn never, i would be crushed. I am rated just above 2000 FIDE.


Tulosba
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 07:49 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Were you allowed to castle with the missing rook?

Chump Change
(EuroBBV)
06/28/07 07:50 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Also Curtains said he can reconstruct the entire match(es) from memory so maybe he would do that for everyone if there is interest (not sure if he would spend time on that or not).




Oh yeah that would be awesome. Plus it wouldn't be that tedious if he's used to typing out notation. A level players should be able to remember a game move for move.

Was durrr drinking/drugging during the match? I can't see him taking this bet without knowing he had a solid chance. In a non-blitz game, an IM giving rook odds to a competent player would be at a disadvantage, though the term 'competent' is relative and might have a different meaning in my head than another's.


Heavens_Myst
(Banned)
06/28/07 07:52 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

howd he pay? cashiers check?

curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 07:53 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Game 2, I'm black, queen's rook is missing. At the very end when he lost his queen he had only a few seconds left.


1.g3 d5 2.Bg2 e5 3.d3 c6 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.Bd2 Bg4 6.Nc3 Qc8 7.h3 Be6 8.e3 Nf6 9.Qe2 0-0 10.Ng5 Bd7 11.e4 d4 12.Nd1 c5 13.f4 h6 14.Nf3 Nh5 15.Qf2 exf4 16.Bxf4 Bxf4 17.gxf4 Nxf4 18.Qg3 Qc7 19.Qh2 f5 20.b3 fxe4 21.dxe4 Qa5+ 22.Nd2 Nc6 23.Rf1 g5 24.h4 Nb4 25.Rc1 Qa3 26.Rb1 Nxc2+ 27.Kf2 Qb4 28.Nf3 g4 29.Qg3 Kh7 30.a3 Qb6 31.Bh1 d3 32.Ne3 c4 33.Qxf4 Rxf4 34.Kg3 Qxe3 0-1


Spechel EDD
(h0t PiNk 4|yf3)
06/28/07 07:54 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

any of you chess pros have a site that you recreate games on? i dont want to have to dig through my closet to find my old board and the stuff coming up in google are 1 on 1 games.

Chump Change
(EuroBBV)
06/28/07 07:57 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Also, how does Curtains rate his edge in this game?

Did Durr ever have a chance or did he just bet 60k drawing stone dead....




'i win 100% of the time in this bet' -curtains




I had a feeling.... That's some pretty sick [censored]. 0% chance of beating an IM down a rook. And he originally wanted to play a GM down a knight... What convinced him that this was in any way feasible?




See, chess is not without the aspect of bad players not knowing they're bad. If durrr never played a rated tournament or played extensively online to get a feel of where he is at, and just beat up on his buddies, he probably has little idea of how good or bad he is.


Chump Change
(EuroBBV)
06/28/07 07:58 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Game 2, I'm black, queen's rook is missing. At the very end when he lost his queen he had only a few seconds left.


1.g3 d5 2.Bg2 e5 3.d3 c6 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.Bd2 Bg4 6.Nc3 Qc8 7.h3 Be6 8.e3 Nf6 9.Qe2 0-0 10.Ng5 Bd7 11.e4 d4 12.Nd1 c5 13.f4 h6 14.Nf3 Nh5 15.Qf2 exf4 16.Bxf4 Bxf4 17.gxf4 Nxf4 18.Qg3 Qc7 19.Qh2 f5 20.b3 fxe4 21.dxe4 Qa5+ 22.Nd2 Nc6 23.Rf1 g5 24.h4 Nb4 25.Rc1 Qa3 26.Rb1 Nxc2+ 27.Kf2 Qb4 28.Nf3 g4 29.Qg3 Kh7 30.a3 Qb6 31.Bh1 d3 32.Ne3 c4 33.Qxf4 Rxf4 34.Kg3 Qxe3 0-1




Thanx!

What were time controls, or was this the one that was 45 min per side?

The final game is being played right now, right? I was about to suggest some moves but that would be shady as hell if there are still games to be played.


cobrakai111
(old hand)
06/28/07 08:09 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

What would have been the right handicap for this to be an even match? Minus the Q? Minus a Rook and pawn?

curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 08:12 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Game 2, I'm black, queen's rook is missing. At the very end when he lost his queen he had only a few seconds left.


1.g3 d5 2.Bg2 e5 3.d3 c6 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.Bd2 Bg4 6.Nc3 Qc8 7.h3 Be6 8.e3 Nf6 9.Qe2 0-0 10.Ng5 Bd7 11.e4 d4 12.Nd1 c5 13.f4 h6 14.Nf3 Nh5 15.Qf2 exf4 16.Bxf4 Bxf4 17.gxf4 Nxf4 18.Qg3 Qc7 19.Qh2 f5 20.b3 fxe4 21.dxe4 Qa5+ 22.Nd2 Nc6 23.Rf1 g5 24.h4 Nb4 25.Rc1 Qa3 26.Rb1 Nxc2+ 27.Kf2 Qb4 28.Nf3 g4 29.Qg3 Kh7 30.a3 Qb6 31.Bh1 d3 32.Ne3 c4 33.Qxf4 Rxf4 34.Kg3 Qxe3 0-1




Thanx!

What were time controls, or was this the one that was 45 min per side?

The final game is being played right now, right? I was about to suggest some moves but that would be shady as hell if there are still games to be played.





No its over. Time control was 60 minutes per side, but he didn't actually lose on time if he went over, he simply had to pay $333 per every minute extra he used. He got down to a few minutes/seconds both games but never actually went over.


samsdmf
(Pooh-Bah)
06/28/07 08:13 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Game 2, I'm black, queen's rook is missing. At the very end when he lost his queen he had only a few seconds left.


1.g3 d5 2.Bg2 e5 3.d3 c6 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.Bd2 Bg4 6.Nc3 Qc8 7.h3 Be6 8.e3 Nf6 9.Qe2 0-0 10.Ng5 Bd7 11.e4 d4 12.Nd1 c5 13.f4 h6 14.Nf3 Nh5 15.Qf2 exf4 16.Bxf4 Bxf4 17.gxf4 Nxf4 18.Qg3 Qc7 19.Qh2 f5 20.b3 fxe4 21.dxe4 Qa5+ 22.Nd2 Nc6 23.Rf1 g5 24.h4 Nb4 25.Rc1 Qa3 26.Rb1 Nxc2+ 27.Kf2 Qb4 28.Nf3 g4 29.Qg3 Kh7 30.a3 Qb6 31.Bh1 d3 32.Ne3 c4 33.Qxf4 Rxf4 34.Kg3 Qxe3 0-1




Thanx!

What were time controls, or was this the one that was 45 min per side?

The final game is being played right now, right? I was about to suggest some moves but that would be shady as hell if there are still games to be played.




This is an insane awesome prop bet, Durrr has far far far tooo much money


Chump Change
(EuroBBV)
06/28/07 08:18 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

What would have been the right handicap for this to be an even match? Minus the Q? Minus a Rook and pawn?




Many times the pawn in front of the removed rook is starts pushed, in this case it would start at A6, so durrr had a slightly bigger advantage than normal rook odds.

A queen feels like way too much, cuz even if durrr is inexperienced he's naturally intelligent enough to figure things out. I'd say 2 minor pieces. Usually in games like this rook odds is actually better, because the better player has one less minor piece to use and immediately rush to seize the initiative.


Chump Change
(EuroBBV)
06/28/07 08:21 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Game 2, I'm black, queen's rook is missing. At the very end when he lost his queen he had only a few seconds left.


1.g3 d5 2.Bg2 e5 3.d3 c6 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.Bd2 Bg4 6.Nc3 Qc8 7.h3 Be6 8.e3 Nf6 9.Qe2 0-0 10.Ng5 Bd7 11.e4 d4 12.Nd1 c5 13.f4 h6 14.Nf3 Nh5 15.Qf2 exf4 16.Bxf4 Bxf4 17.gxf4 Nxf4 18.Qg3 Qc7 19.Qh2 f5 20.b3 fxe4 21.dxe4 Qa5+ 22.Nd2 Nc6 23.Rf1 g5 24.h4 Nb4 25.Rc1 Qa3 26.Rb1 Nxc2+ 27.Kf2 Qb4 28.Nf3 g4 29.Qg3 Kh7 30.a3 Qb6 31.Bh1 d3 32.Ne3 c4 33.Qxf4 Rxf4 34.Kg3 Qxe3 0-1




Thanx!

What were time controls, or was this the one that was 45 min per side?

The final game is being played right now, right? I was about to suggest some moves but that would be shady as hell if there are still games to be played.





No its over. Time control was 60 minutes per side, but he didn't actually lose on time if he went over, he simply had to pay $333 per every minute extra he used. He got down to a few minutes/seconds both games but never actually went over.




Yeah, I just noticed that it was game 2 and didn't even see game 1 already posted.


Pudge714
(Ship it Holla Brother)
06/28/07 08:27 AM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

I do have to say, though a great poker player, durrrr is one of the biggest prop betting fish I know.



QFT at the PCA he gave odds on RPS.
Jman,
Will there be a recreation of the running prop bet?


Chump Change
(EuroBBV)
06/28/07 08:27 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?




hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.




you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.



That's not true, a piece advantage would likely be enough for me against a GM if it's not a very fast time control. But a pawn never, i would be crushed. I am rated just above 2000 FIDE.




Well you know that what color you draw as well as what pawn is removed has a great impact. A piece is easily enough and pete_fabrazio is basically correct in his statements.


Chump Change
(EuroBBV)
06/28/07 08:36 AM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

did curtains try to pull the:
pawn e2 to e4
queen d1 to f3
bishop f1 to c4
queen takes pawn from f3 to f7 checkmate
gg

move because that wouldve been pretty lol to do




I wouldve loved to see:

White-durrrr black-curtains

1. f4 e6
2. g4 Qh4 mate


smilingbill
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 08:54 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

A very strong GM getting pawn odds vs a computer - puter crushes him anyway

Pawn's odds are being significantly overrated by some in this thread.


citanul
(SNG Pooh-Bah)
06/28/07 09:10 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

curtains,

about what uscf rating would you estimate a player would have to carry to be 50/50 with you playing down a knight? down a rook?


SlowHabit
(*)
06/28/07 09:18 AM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

I do have to say, though a great poker player, durrrr is one of the biggest prop betting fish I know.





1p0kerboy
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 09:30 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

A+ thread.

Triumph36
(Good Citizen)
06/28/07 09:38 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

i don't know chess well enough to piece out a match from the notation there - did durrrr make any obvious blunders/hang a piece? down a rook he should be able to force his opponent into trades which give him an edge.

anyway this is obviously awesome


PocketElevens
(veteran)
06/28/07 09:41 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?




hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.




you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.




its really not as easy as you think.




I'm not sure how I would do but I know what I would try.

Right off the hop I'd take every power piece i could that forced him to use his turn to take my piece back. You'd really want to trade queens.

Once you get the superior player down to say his bishop and rook vs your bishop and two rooks (if his mom is cool with it) you're in good shape.


Phone Booth
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 09:45 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for raptor

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Also, how does Curtains rate his edge in this game?

Did Durr ever have a chance or did he just bet 60k drawing stone dead....




'i win 100% of the time in this bet' -curtains




I had a feeling.... That's some pretty sick [censored]. 0% chance of beating an IM down a rook. And he originally wanted to play a GM down a knight... What convinced him that this was in any way feasible?




He may have beat a computer that way. Much easier than beating any human GM with the same handicap even if Computer >>>>> Average GM.


ig06
(newbie)
06/28/07 09:54 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.




There was a charity match a few years ago when Terence Chapman, a former England junior international/British U-14 Champion and FIDE rating a bit less than 2200, played Kasparov at 2 pawn odds. The two pawns were never centre pawns as Kasparov was of the opinion that this would be too big a handicap. I remember at the time there was a surprisingly wide range of opinions even amongst strong players as to what odds players of various strengths could give to Kasparov. At any rate, Kasparov narrowly won the match.
I can't even count the number of games where, as a mere FM I have won from what seemed like hopeless positions against decent players (and tbh vice-versa!).


ChrisV
(Ships It Crucial (to the kids))
06/28/07 10:27 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I can't be bothered downloading a chess program to play through the moves, but I followed the first ten or so moves of game 1 in my head and durrr sucks pretty bad. I'm a decent chess player, by no means a strong player, but curtains would have little chance against me down a rook. A knight would probably be about level. Being a rook up is hugely strong as it's so easy to trade down into a position where the rook is a powerhouse and totally decisive.

xxThe_Lebowskixx
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 10:37 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

having him down a rook is much more valuable than a knight. you would have to be a very very strong player to beat a GM down only a knight.

xxThe_Lebowskixx
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 10:40 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

you guys are under estimating the different ways a GM could play to prevent you from simply trading pieces, specifically not using an opening you are familiar with like


e4 e5
nf3 nc6
bc4 nf6


Cresspahl
(stranger)
06/28/07 10:41 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Just for the records: Did curtains/Shahade and Durr play their match on a chess server or real-life over the board?

xxThe_Lebowskixx
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 10:45 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Is durrrr actually any good at chess, or does he just like betting on stuff?




hes not a lot better than me, and i consider myself terrible.




you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.




its really not as easy as you think.




I'm not sure how I would do but I know what I would try.

Right off the hop I'd take every power piece i could that forced him to use his turn to take my piece back. You'd really want to trade queens.

Once you get the superior player down to say his bishop and rook vs your bishop and two rooks (if his mom is cool with it) you're in good shape.




you will make a mistake somewhere along the way. look at it like this: the rooks dont even come into play in a chess game until X number of moves, by that point you are already going to have given up atleast half the value of the rook. now you need to finish without losing - nah, its going to be very hard.


Chump Change
(EuroBBV)
06/28/07 11:05 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

you guys are under estimating the different ways a GM could play to prevent you from simply trading pieces, specifically not using an opening you are familiar with like


e4 e5
nf3 nc6
bc4 nf6




Anybody that doesn't know that opening can't call themselves a competent player. Which side does the GM have in that sequence?


You do make a good point though KKF, one I alluded to earlier, in that the GM would have a harder time compromising the weaker player without a knight as oppopsed to without a rook.


ReptileHouse
(veteran)
06/28/07 11:19 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

holy crap this is awesome.... playing through the games now. so sweet! :P

Sciolist
(In the know)
06/28/07 11:25 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Just for the records: Did curtains/Shahade and Durr play their match on a chess server or real-life over the board?



Real life


bones
(STTF-USP Champion)
06/28/07 11:40 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

howd he pay? cashiers check?




lol...


jalexand42
(Hypothetical Ubermonkey)
06/28/07 11:40 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Nice job raptor, sick prop.

I'm curious tho, why didn't you get Samo to play for you?


ReptileHouse
(veteran)
06/28/07 11:43 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

any of you chess pros have a site that you recreate games on? i dont want to have to dig through my closet to find my old board and the stuff coming up in google are 1 on 1 games.




Google winboard/xboard. Free software that does the trick nicely.


Arnfinn Madsen
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 11:43 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Out of 100 random club players, I would probably beat only around 20, but I still quite sure I would beat Curtains if he would play without a rook (my brother is about that level and I would beat him), but I think that I would be a favourite against Durrrr with a rook less, with a knight less I would crush him. The big difference is really between club players and sunday players, the best sunday players that beat all their friends and relatives etc. usually get crushed when they join a club, you don't remove all your easily exploitable mistakes until you regularily play people that know how to exploit them.

CamelZoo
(old hand)
06/28/07 11:51 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for raptor

cool bet
the only way i think durr or anyone else in his position would have a chance is to make it blitz, and hope that the GM you're playing is a blitz fish (fish being relative to his normal time abilities) and you are a well above average speed chess player. or...... if durrr were to play with no piece advantage, but curtains had to play blind, in a G/45 scenario, that would be cool.

i'm somewhere around 1600 uscf last time i played and have taken down players 2000+ at G/30 and below, but above i'd get slowly, painfully demolished, G/45 is enough for curtains to do just that - and i think ppl who think getting a pawn, knight, or even rook's advantage against a GM is a cinch win are out of their minds


Triumph36
(Good Citizen)
06/28/07 11:54 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for raptor

wow looking at game 1, durrrr is the noataima of chess

BustoPro
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 11:57 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for raptor

Quote:

cool bet
the only way i think durr or anyone else in his position would have a chance is to make it blitz, and hope that the GM you're playing is a blitz fish (fish being relative to his normal time abilities) and you are a well above average speed chess player. or...... if durrr were to play with no piece advantage, but curtains had to play blind, in a G/45 scenario, that would be cool.




Curtains would give up very little playing blind. But don't tell durrrr.

Strong players actually pwn harder at blitz - skill differences become magnified - they still see most of what they would see anyway, and the weak player doesn't see much of anything. But don't tell durrrr.


Fishfood4you
(newbie)
06/28/07 12:07 PM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Totally off topic but has anyone heard about a chess game between A known poker player that i think was Ram Vaswani and a well known Grand Master. The rumor i heard was they bet 100,000 and ram got 10-1. The rest of the rumor was that ram used an ear piece linked to a computer that had not lost ever in simulation. Obviously ram whips the GM and questions about how its possible for a poker player to beat a GM. Well i heard they caught known poker player with the ear piece and found out what happened. Pretty crazy if true. Any real info on if this actually occured and the actual players involved would be great! Again i have no actual knowledge if this is true just a rumor i heard

ifoughtpiranhas
(*)
06/28/07 12:11 PM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Totally off topic but has anyone heard about a chess game between A known poker player that i think was Ram Vaswani and a well known Grand Master. The rumor i heard was they bet 100,000 and ram got 10-1. The rest of the rumor was that ram used an ear piece linked to a computer that had not lost ever in simulation. Obviously ram whips the GM and questions about how its possible for a poker player to beat a GM. Well i heard they caught known poker player with the ear piece and found out what happened. Pretty crazy if true. Any real info on if this actually occured and the actual players involved would be great! Again i have no actual knowledge if this is true just a rumor i heard




i smell [censored]


snagglepuss
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 12:27 PM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

i had action with durrrr with me laying 2-1 on the knight match. though i am sure i will lose back my winnings in an upcoming high stakes monopoly game.

BustoPro
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 12:28 PM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Totally off topic but has anyone heard about a chess game between A known poker player that i think was Ram Vaswani and a well known Grand Master. The rumor i heard was they bet 100,000 and ram got 10-1. The rest of the rumor was that ram used an ear piece linked to a computer that had not lost ever in simulation. Obviously ram whips the GM and questions about how its possible for a poker player to beat a GM. Well i heard they caught known poker player with the ear piece and found out what happened. Pretty crazy if true. Any real info on if this actually occured and the actual players involved would be great! Again i have no actual knowledge if this is true just a rumor i heard




Well he had to get the moves to the computer somehow, I heard it was by having a chessboard grid on the inside of the roof of his mouth, and there were sensors for each square, and he had his tongue sharpened, and each tooth represented a different chess piece. Sick, if true.


Reef
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 12:32 PM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I used to be a strong club level player (1700ish USCF).. I put my chess program on highest GM setting and down a knight. With 5 or 10 minute time I only eeked out a few draws and lost most of them.

ChrisV
(Ships It Crucial (to the kids))
06/28/07 12:35 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

the only way i think durr or anyone else in his position would have a chance is to make it blitz, and hope that the GM you're playing is a blitz fish




This is completely backwards. You're up a rook. The major way a typical club player would lose in that situation is to blunder. Playing blitz massively increases the chances of you blundering. I'd want it to be a correspondence game, if possible.

I think people are overestimating how difficult it is to win up a rook. Grandmasters are not magical. They can't change the fact of what is on the board. I would be a favourite against Garry Kasparov if he played down a rook. The basic gameplan is trade off as many pieces as possible, open some files so the rook is useful, and keep the king safe.

Contrast that with what durrr did (I've taken a look at the games now). In game 1 he failed to develop, instead playing the crazy Qa5 and stuffing his queen down on a3 in some attempted pawn-grab, when he's already a rook up. He allowed his king to be trapped in the center and broadly speaking that's why he lost. In game 2 he actually twice runs away from piece trades, retreating his bishop to e6 and then d7 when a trade with the knight is possible. The losing move in this game was d4 in response to curtains' e4. It not only closed up the center, reducing the power of his extra rook, but it locked all his pieces away from the K-side, where curtains is about to attack. Look at the board after ... c5 and notice how utterly locked out of the K-side durrr's queen is. It's going to take him like 4 moves to get her there if he needs to.


The Yugoslavian
(STTF-HUC II Champion)
06/28/07 12:46 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

HAHAHAHAH DURRR ACTUALLY DID THIS BET WITH YOU OMG!

I remember you talking to me about this bet and just laughing b/c there was like basically no way for durrr to win it vs. a world champ like curtains.

curtains - did you smack durr in the face with your dick after the match was done?

raptor - were you prepared to strip down and dance in front of durrr 4tw if the match got close?

durrr - please let me prop bet you for monies

Yugoslav


eviljeff
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 12:47 PM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Totally off topic but has anyone heard about a chess game between A known poker player that i think was Ram Vaswani and a well known Grand Master. The rumor i heard was they bet 100,000 and ram got 10-1. The rest of the rumor was that ram used an ear piece linked to a computer that had not lost ever in simulation. Obviously ram whips the GM and questions about how its possible for a poker player to beat a GM. Well i heard they caught known poker player with the ear piece and found out what happened. Pretty crazy if true. Any real info on if this actually occured and the actual players involved would be great! Again i have no actual knowledge if this is true just a rumor i heard




pretty sure this was an episode of Cheers


The Yugoslavian
(STTF-HUC II Champion)
06/28/07 12:49 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

I followed the first ten or so moves of game 1 in my head and durrr sucks pretty bad.




Seriously, he's even worse than Raptor alluded to. I can picture how the rest of the game goes pretty easily.

Yugoslav


Triumph36
(Good Citizen)
06/28/07 12:49 PM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Totally off topic but has anyone heard about a chess game between A known poker player that i think was Ram Vaswani and a well known Grand Master. The rumor i heard was they bet 100,000 and ram got 10-1. The rest of the rumor was that ram used an ear piece linked to a computer that had not lost ever in simulation. Obviously ram whips the GM and questions about how its possible for a poker player to beat a GM. Well i heard they caught known poker player with the ear piece and found out what happened. Pretty crazy if true. Any real info on if this actually occured and the actual players involved would be great! Again i have no actual knowledge if this is true just a rumor i heard




pretty sure this was an episode of Cheers




plz post more


xxThe_Lebowskixx
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 12:53 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

you guys are under estimating the different ways a GM could play to prevent you from simply trading pieces, specifically not using an opening you are familiar with like


e4 e5
nf3 nc6
bc4 nf6




Anybody that doesn't know that opening can't call themselves a competent player. Which side does the GM have in that sequence?


You do make a good point though KKF, one I alluded to earlier, in that the GM would have a harder time compromising the weaker player without a knight as oppopsed to without a rook.




no, i meant the GM wouldnt be playing a simple opening like that which would allow him to just trade pieces. d4 d5 is much harder to play than e5 e4 imho.

i think a rook is more valuable than a knight, not that it matters much because durrr had zero chance.


Admo
(2p2's Photoshop Laureate)
06/28/07 12:59 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5 3.Nc3 c6 4.Bf4 e6 5.c5 Qa5 6.a3 Bxc5 7.dxc5 Qxc5 8.Rc1 d4 9.Ne4 Qa5+ 10.b4 Qxa3 11.Nd6+ Ke7 12.Qxd4 Nd7 13.e4 Bg6 14.Ra1 c5 15.Qxg7 Qxb4+ 16.Bd2 Qd4 17.Qxd4 cxd4 18.Bb4 Kf6 19.f4 e5 20.f5 Bh5 21.h3 Nh6 22.Bd2 Ke7 23.Nxb7 Rab8 24.Na5 Rhc8 25.Bxh6 f6 26.Bc1 Kf7 27.g4 Nc5 28.gxh5 Nxe4 29.Bc4+ Ke8 30.Ne2 Nd6 31.Be6 Rc7 32.Ba3 Ne4 33.Bd5 Nc5 34.Bc6+ Kf8 35.Bxc5+ Kg7 36.Bd6 Rxc6 37.Nxc6 Rb6 38.Rxa7+ Kh6 39.Bf8+ Kxh5 40.Rxh7+ Kg5 41.Ne7 Rb1+ 42.Kf2 d3 43.Bh6+ Kh4 44.Be3# 1-0






snagglepuss
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 01:04 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra *DELETED*

Post deleted by snagglepuss

bones
(STTF-USP Champion)
06/28/07 01:06 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Curtains,

Is this your biggest chess score?


antipeon
(member)
06/28/07 01:07 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.




A single pawn advantage would make a "competitive" player a fav over top gm's? LOL, that's the most ridiculus statement in this thread, first of all what do you call competitive player? 2000 ICC?


xxThe_Lebowskixx
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 01:15 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for raptor

A plane ticket to curtains city in the usa is probably < $300. If you are so confident then why dont you arrange something?

Thrahl
(old hand)
06/28/07 01:16 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

the only way i think durr or anyone else in his position would have a chance is to make it blitz, and hope that the GM you're playing is a blitz fish




This is completely backwards. You're up a rook. The major way a typical club player would lose in that situation is to blunder. Playing blitz massively increases the chances of you blundering. I'd want it to be a correspondence game, if possible.

I think people are overestimating how difficult it is to win up a rook. Grandmasters are not magical. They can't change the fact of what is on the board. I would be a favourite against Garry Kasparov if he played down a rook. The basic gameplan is trade off as many pieces as possible, open some files so the rook is useful, and keep the king safe.

Contrast that with what durrr did (I've taken a look at the games now). In game 1 he failed to develop, instead playing the crazy Qa5 and stuffing his queen down on a3 in some attempted pawn-grab, when he's already a rook up. He allowed his king to be trapped in the center and broadly speaking that's why he lost. In game 2 he actually twice runs away from piece trades, retreating his bishop to e6 and then d7 when a trade with the knight is possible. The losing move in this game was d4 in response to curtains' e4. It not only closed up the center, reducing the power of his extra rook, but it locked all his pieces away from the K-side, where curtains is about to attack. Look at the board after ... c5 and notice how utterly locked out of the K-side durrr's queen is. It's going to take him like 4 moves to get her there if he needs to.




Plenty of Masters/GM have gone to Central Park and got owned playing speed chess. If youre reasonably good at speed chess ,this would def be the way to go IMO. Much easier to trade down in Blitz. And I certainly dont want to play a master in a game where he has time to think more than a handful of moves ahead.

And you would def not be a fav over Kasparov down a rook. Hes going to mate you long before that rook comes in to play.


Ship Ship McGipp
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 01:22 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

lol @ you cats, i'm counting the months until i'm 21

burkoboy
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 01:24 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

How would you of handled a stalemate? A win for Durr?

Triumph36
(Good Citizen)
06/28/07 01:24 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra *DELETED*

Quote:

Post deleted by snagglepuss




aww, why'd you delete this


BustoPro
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 01:33 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:


And you would def not be a fav over Kasparov down a rook. Hes going to mate you long before that rook comes in to play.




LOL at this statement, when you have no idea how good ChrisV is. Any USCF Expert (>2000 US, top 1% or so of *tournament* chess players) would be a clear favorite over Kasparov with rook odds, IMHO.


snagglepuss
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 01:33 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

triumph,

didnt want to be posting pictures of people w/o their consent.

burkoboy,

they flipped for every aspect of the game beforehand.


chesterboy
(journeyman)
06/28/07 01:33 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra *DELETED*

I'm about 2100 (much weaker than IM) and from the looks of those games I would have easily won with the same handicap vs. durr. What a great bet lol.

As far as various handicaps, a GM would beat almost any basic master with pawn odds, much more so a weaker player.

A decent club strength player should be able to win with rook odds most of the time, and piece odds would be close.


BustoPro
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 01:34 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Plenty of Masters/GM have gone to Central Park and got owned playing speed chess.




vs. extremely strong blitz players, not vs. durrr. Your argument is completely irrelevant.


Apathy
(2006 and 2007 HSNL Heads-up Champion)
06/28/07 02:07 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Durrr would have been much better off with a 2 hour clock.

if he was a better prop better he could have likely gotten himself a 2 hour clock and Curtains a 5 min clock.

Curtains was saying he thought he would still win in the down a knight bet with a 2 min clock, not sure how he feels about the down a rook bet.


quirkasaurus
(addict)
06/28/07 02:17 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Reading through these posts, it's amazing to me how people
can be so unappreciative of experts who have worked for
years to develop their skills. If you've heard of Johnny
Morton, the NFL wide receiver, who tried to fight in the
UFL after training in martial arts for 2 months... He
got knocked out in under 2 minutes.

Imagine if the prop bet was basketball; a chess grandmaster
is the chess equivalent of an NBA player ( or maybe even
all-star ) at the worst. The average "good" chess player,
( ie less than 1700 rating ) would be analogous to a
weekend gym rat who loves basketball.

Would anyone in their right mind bet on the gym rat no
matter HOW good the odds ? ( 10 point handicap to 20,
NBA player can only shoot from 3 point land... etc... )

Probably not... unless the NBA player had to play in
showshoes, or blind-folded, or something utterly
ridiculous...

Or imagine the gym rat vs. an NFL player, one-on-one,
a la those old American Gladiator events. How often
did the average Joe beat the Gladiator ???

My point is: non-experts tend to completely trivialize
the skills of experts in their field to their own
detriment; especially in games of skill or athletic
endeavors.


darom03
(don't call me, I'll call you)
06/28/07 02:25 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Imagine if the prop bet was basketball




This must be the worst analogy of the year by far.


El Diablo
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 02:38 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

rbk,

"i wonder if there were any suckers there that put action on durr?"

Raptor tried to sucker me into an even money bet on durrrrrrr, but I was too savvy for the kid to hustle.


892King
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 02:39 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5 3.Nc3 c6 4.Bf4 e6 5.c5 Qa5 6.a3 Bxc5 7.dxc5 Qxc5 8.Rc1 d4 9.Ne4 Qa5+ 10.b4 Qxa3 11.Nd6+ Ke7 12.Qxd4 Nd7 13.e4 Bg6 14.Ra1 c5 15.Qxg7 Qxb4+ 16.Bd2 Qd4 17.Qxd4 cxd4 18.Bb4 Kf6 19.f4 e5 20.f5 Bh5 21.h3 Nh6 22.Bd2 Ke7 23.Nxb7 Rab8 24.Na5 Rhc8 25.Bxh6 f6 26.Bc1 Kf7 27.g4 Nc5 28.gxh5 Nxe4 29.Bc4+ Ke8 30.Ne2 Nd6 31.Be6 Rc7 32.Ba3 Ne4 33.Bd5 Nc5 34.Bc6+ Kf8 35.Bxc5+ Kg7 36.Bd6 Rxc6 37.Nxc6 Rb6 38.Rxa7+ Kh6 39.Bf8+ Kxh5 40.Rxh7+ Kg5 41.Ne7 Rb1+ 42.Kf2 d3 43.Bh6+ Kh4 44.Be3# 1-0









lol


rothko
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 02:48 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

what was in it for curtains?

Stealthy
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 02:51 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for raptor

Quote:

Durrr actually played match 1 with Black and is playing match 2 with white now. Should there be a 3rd match he gets white again.

One of the best lines from the chess match #1:

Durrr: damn I screwed up back there, if I didnt make that mistake I couldve won this one.

Curtains: Now let's not get carried away.




-Apathy






Top quality thread A+++


BustoPro
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 02:53 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

what was in it for curtains?




10% freeroll


ipp147
(veteran)
06/28/07 02:53 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

what was in it for curtains?




raptor said a 10% freeroll if he one - so $5k or whatever.


roaaahhh
(addict)
06/28/07 03:00 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

roughly 5+k

rothko
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 03:00 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

ah, sorry. i missed that.

LonesomeFugitive
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 03:05 PM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

I do have to say, though a great poker player, durrrr is one of the biggest prop betting fish I know.



Maybe he needs to take lessons from Sklansky on never taking bets you don't have an edge in.


JaBlue
(Naked Mountain)
06/28/07 03:13 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Also Curtains said he can reconstruct the entire match(es) from memory so maybe he would do that for everyone if there is interest (not sure if he would spend time on that or not).




That would be real easy for him and I for one am interested.

edit: oops didn't see it was done. And I'm pretty sure I could beat an IM down a knight. Definitely if he's down a rook. And I'm not very good.


blah_blah
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 03:28 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Reading through these posts, it's amazing to me how people
can be so unappreciative of experts who have worked for
years to develop their skills. If you've heard of Johnny
Morton, the NFL wide receiver, who tried to fight in the
UFL after training in martial arts for 2 months... He
got knocked out in under 2 minutes.

Imagine if the prop bet was basketball; a chess grandmaster
is the chess equivalent of an NBA player ( or maybe even
all-star ) at the worst. The average "good" chess player,
( ie less than 1700 rating ) would be analogous to a
weekend gym rat who loves basketball.

Would anyone in their right mind bet on the gym rat no
matter HOW good the odds ? ( 10 point handicap to 20,
NBA player can only shoot from 3 point land... etc... )

Probably not... unless the NBA player had to play in
showshoes, or blind-folded, or something utterly
ridiculous...

Or imagine the gym rat vs. an NFL player, one-on-one,
a la those old American Gladiator events. How often
did the average Joe beat the Gladiator ???

My point is: non-experts tend to completely trivialize
the skills of experts in their field to their own
detriment; especially in games of skill or athletic
endeavors.




I think that you are missing the point a little. I have played chess while drunk before and beaten a (sober) near GM with a queen handicap. I am sure that I could train myself to win in this situation (with a rook handicap) in less than a week. There is a rating cutoff point in which all players with ratings > X can beat a GM of Curtains' level with > 90% probability. X is almost certainly a lot lower than you think.

A small perturbation in 'game fairness' can only be measured in the context of the game.

For example: I play Garry Kasparov right now with a handicap of bishop, knight, rook on one side of the board: I crush him.

I play Tiger Woods with 4 clubs in his bag that he gets to choose: he absolutely crushes me and I am about a 12 handicap.

I play TLK in HU LHE and only get top 33% hands: I should be a winner.

I play PA in HU LO8 and only get top 33% hands: I probably am a loser.


Victor
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 03:46 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

"I play PA in HU LO8 and only get top 33% hands: I probably am a loser."

ok, ive never played this game and will take this bet any day.


Pudge714
(Ship it Holla Brother)
06/28/07 03:55 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Durrr would have been much better off with a 2 hour clock.

if he was a better prop better he could have likely gotten himself a 2 hour clock and Curtains a 5 min clock.

Curtains was saying he thought he would still win in the down a knight bet with a 2 min clock, not sure how he feels about the down a rook bet.



Also durrr should have gotten odds on the knight bet if he was taking even money on the rook bet.


BustoPro
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 03:56 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:


edit: oops didn't see it was done. And I'm pretty sure I could beat an IM down a knight. Definitely if he's down a rook. And I'm not very good.




If you're truly "not very good", how can you have any idea what it takes to beat somebody who is very, very good, and therefore how would you know what handicap is fair? Or did you not bother reading the rest of the thread, and notice that durrrr lost a bit of money because he thought the same thing?


muxplust
(old hand)
06/28/07 04:04 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

durr is smart

StregaChess
(old hand)
06/28/07 04:05 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Sick. There's a reason people don't gamble on chess. Well.... normal people.



Nothing could be further from the truth. Go to Washington Square Park or any warm moist spot where deviant chess players congregate and you'll find folks gambling on chess.
(Yes you did say normal people but with that bar who gambles?)
It's small stakes compared to a poker player's prop bets but just the same chess players gamble. Asa Hoffman use to offer weak class players time odds and mating square. The "fish" could pick the square before the games started, like d4 (middle of the board) and Asa would have to "mate" the on d4 or else he's lose the bet.
I’ve watched IM Skirazi play GM Dzindzichashvili, in speed chess losing like $5,000 in about 20 minutes of play.
I guess the major difference in chess gambling is if you can put your ego aside you should be smart enough to know the outcome before the bet starts.


Bronstein
(journeyman)
06/28/07 04:06 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Some facts:
I've played countless blitz-games (5 minutes) vs guys who played 1 year, giving a queen or both rooks. Always winning them. Main reason: the time-pressure. So don't think a knight or rook is an awful lot. Sometimes it is, but most players are so weak (compared to an IM) that it hardly matters.

The average club-player will have the worse of it with knight-odds as the IM has great chances for a draw when things go wrong.
I guess players around 2200 FIDE easily beat the IM with knight-odds (it's the level that make IMs sweat in regular games).
But any unschooled player has no chance whatsoever with knight-odds. Whether it's vs 2200 or 2400 also doesn't matter, as long as his opponent is flexible enough to realize he shouldn't play the theoretically best moves but those who offer the best chances.

Btw: curtains would have beaten him blindfold too, seriously. His level would hardly drop.


durron597
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 04:09 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

what was in it for curtains?




raptor said a 10% freeroll if he one - so $5k or whatever.




im actually surprised he wouldn't try to get more action (with risk) on himself


Masquerade
(addict)
06/28/07 04:12 PM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

I used to be a strong club level player (1700ish USCF).. I put my chess program on highest GM setting and down a knight. With 5 or 10 minute time I only eked out a few draws and lost most of them.




I believe you'd need to be ~2000 USCF to be +EV playing a GM at knight odds. A 2200 USCF player should be winning most games.


BustoPro
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 04:17 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

what was in it for curtains?




raptor said a 10% freeroll if he one - so $5k or whatever.




im actually surprised he wouldn't try to get more action (with risk) on himself




Three letters... begins with "N"...


StregaChess
(old hand)
06/28/07 04:18 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:


this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world.




This is so wrong, a random GM with pawn and move would be the underdog against a world champion at the top of his game. IM Boinn lost to Kasparov in a simul, while not pawn and move, one would think that facing 39 other players at the same time would be an equalizer.... not...


JaBlue
(Naked Mountain)
06/28/07 04:21 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:


edit: oops didn't see it was done. And I'm pretty sure I could beat an IM down a knight. Definitely if he's down a rook. And I'm not very good.




If you're truly "not very good", how can you have any idea what it takes to beat somebody who is very, very good, and therefore how would you know what handicap is fair? Or did you not bother reading the rest of the thread, and notice that durrrr lost a bit of money because he thought the same thing?




I am a huge fav. against Durrr. I am extremely good at chess compared to the average nonstudying player and better than a lot of players who have been playing and studying for a while. Still nowhere near someone like Curtains though.


StregaChess
(old hand)
06/28/07 04:22 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:



if he was a better prop better he could have likely gotten himself a 2 hour clock and Curtains a 5 min clock.



I don't think it would help that much. Curtains can think while he's not on move. That helps a ton, if he was a GREAT prop better he's take a 2 hour clock but make Curtains stand behind a "CURTAIN" (hahaha..) when not on move...
But actually that would not help tons either, he's still be able to review the game blindfolded...


BustoPro
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 04:23 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


edit: oops didn't see it was done. And I'm pretty sure I could beat an IM down a knight. Definitely if he's down a rook. And I'm not very good.




If you're truly "not very good", how can you have any idea what it takes to beat somebody who is very, very good, and therefore how would you know what handicap is fair? Or did you not bother reading the rest of the thread, and notice that durrrr lost a bit of money because he thought the same thing?




I am a huge fav. against Durrr. I am extremely good at chess compared to the average nonstudying player and better than a lot of players who have been playing and studying for a while. Still nowhere near someone like Curtains though.




In other words, you ARE very good. But not an expert. Whatever, I guess.


BustoPro
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 04:26 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:



if he was a better prop better he could have likely gotten himself a 2 hour clock and Curtains a 5 min clock.



I don't think it would help that much. Curtains can think while he's not on move. That helps a ton, if he was a GREAT prop better he's take a 2 hour clock but make Curtains stand behind a "CURTAIN" (hahaha..) when not on move...
But actually that would not help tons either, he's still be able to review the game blindfolded...




How about this... blindfolded, and he isn't told durrr's move unless it involves a capture.


SuitedSixes
(Sexual Tyrannosaurus)
06/28/07 04:31 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Raptor,

Please buy one of these with your winnings, thankyewveddymuch

Sixes



P.S.
Buy two and I'll deliver in person.


blah_blah
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 04:32 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

"I play PA in HU LO8 and only get top 33% hands: I probably am a loser."

ok, ive never played this game and will take this bet any day.




I am just trying to illustrate the point that structural issues within a game (e.g., hands running much closer together as they do in LO8 compared to LHE) influence how big a seemingly small handicap actually is.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 04:58 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

A very strong GM getting pawn odds vs a computer - puter crushes him anyway

Pawn's odds are being significantly overrated by some in this thread.





This match was a fast time control, which greatly helps the computer's chances.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 04:58 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

curtains,

about what uscf rating would you estimate a player would have to carry to be 50/50 with you playing down a knight? down a rook?




Knight: 1400-1500?
Rook: 1200-1300?

Random guesses could be off easily.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 05:01 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

the only way i think durr or anyone else in his position would have a chance is to make it blitz, and hope that the GM you're playing is a blitz fish




This is completely backwards. You're up a rook. The major way a typical club player would lose in that situation is to blunder. Playing blitz massively increases the chances of you blundering. I'd want it to be a correspondence game, if possible.

I think people are overestimating how difficult it is to win up a rook. Grandmasters are not magical. They can't change the fact of what is on the board. I would be a favourite against Garry Kasparov if he played down a rook. The basic gameplan is trade off as many pieces as possible, open some files so the rook is useful, and keep the king safe.

Contrast that with what durrr did (I've taken a look at the games now). In game 1 he failed to develop, instead playing the crazy Qa5 and stuffing his queen down on a3 in some attempted pawn-grab, when he's already a rook up. He allowed his king to be trapped in the center and broadly speaking that's why he lost. In game 2 he actually twice runs away from piece trades, retreating his bishop to e6 and then d7 when a trade with the knight is possible. The losing move in this game was d4 in response to curtains' e4. It not only closed up the center, reducing the power of his extra rook, but it locked all his pieces away from the K-side, where curtains is about to attack. Look at the board after ... c5 and notice how utterly locked out of the K-side durrr's queen is. It's going to take him like 4 moves to get her there if he needs to.





Uhhh.... I was black in game 2.

Also its clearly true that speed chess would give me more of an edge than game 60.

Also any expert rated player should be a favorite over the World Champion at rook odds IMO.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 05:03 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Curtains,

Is this your biggest chess score?




Sadly for the world of chess, yes. That's unless you count the fellowship I won for like 64k over 2 years.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 05:05 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

the only way i think durr or anyone else in his position would have a chance is to make it blitz, and hope that the GM you're playing is a blitz fish




This is completely backwards. You're up a rook. The major way a typical club player would lose in that situation is to blunder. Playing blitz massively increases the chances of you blundering. I'd want it to be a correspondence game, if possible.

I think people are overestimating how difficult it is to win up a rook. Grandmasters are not magical. They can't change the fact of what is on the board. I would be a favourite against Garry Kasparov if he played down a rook. The basic gameplan is trade off as many pieces as possible, open some files so the rook is useful, and keep the king safe.

Contrast that with what durrr did (I've taken a look at the games now). In game 1 he failed to develop, instead playing the crazy Qa5 and stuffing his queen down on a3 in some attempted pawn-grab, when he's already a rook up. He allowed his king to be trapped in the center and broadly speaking that's why he lost. In game 2 he actually twice runs away from piece trades, retreating his bishop to e6 and then d7 when a trade with the knight is possible. The losing move in this game was d4 in response to curtains' e4. It not only closed up the center, reducing the power of his extra rook, but it locked all his pieces away from the K-side, where curtains is about to attack. Look at the board after ... c5 and notice how utterly locked out of the K-side durrr's queen is. It's going to take him like 4 moves to get her there if he needs to.




Plenty of Masters/GM have gone to Central Park and got owned playing speed chess. If youre reasonably good at speed chess ,this would def be the way to go IMO. Much easier to trade down in Blitz. And I certainly dont want to play a master in a game where he has time to think more than a handful of moves ahead.

And you would def not be a fav over Kasparov down a rook. Hes going to mate you long before that rook comes in to play.





lol, GM's don't go to Central Park and get owned at blitz by random people. There is maybe one person who is a favorite over a random GM, but he is known to be GM strength himself in blitz chess (Yaacov is his name and he's only been around a few years). Everyone else who plays on the street or in the parks in NY, for the last 10 years, is not especially strong. Maybe master to 2400 strength at blitz but I would always have a huge edge over them.


citanul
(SNG Pooh-Bah)
06/28/07 05:08 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

wow, some of the estimations of how big or small a knight or rook odds are are totally absurd. i don't have a great estimation of what it is, though curtains likely does. however it's obviously a scale that changes. while skills and ratings clump near the top, (even due to just the plain rating adjustment formula being different for higher ratings than low) the same is obviously not true for lower and mid ratings.

my impulse is that no adequately strong (probably any random 2200+ish but maybe any random IM+ is what's necessary. but hey, i'd personally doubt that an expert (2000+) would lose to a champion given a knight) player would ever lose to the world champion if given a knight, and probably 2 pawns would be enough as well.

however the difference between a 1400 and a 2000 is just absurd, and considering we're probably looking at durrr being like an 1100-1200(?), and curtains being a 2400+ (uscf), well, it's just a ridiculous difference.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 05:08 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

I'm about 2100 (much weaker than IM) and from the looks of those games I would have easily won with the same handicap vs. durr. What a great bet lol.

As far as various handicaps, a GM would beat almost any basic master with pawn odds, much more so a weaker player.

A decent club strength player should be able to win with rook odds most of the time, and piece odds would be close.





Somehow the games felt tougher than they may have seemed. durrr never flat out gave away material in one move and seemed to be working very hard. A lot of his moves lacked any chess understanding but I did feel like I had to calculate some stuff a few times and that if I made a careless mistake he was capable of picking up on it. I mean the first game was actually pretty competitive until he played ....Kf7 on like move 25-30. Despite that ok I'd probably win starting with 2 minutes on my clock, but it'd be a lot closer.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 05:08 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Imagine if the prop bet was basketball




This must be the worst analogy of the year by far.




I don't think its a bad analogy at all. If a friend of Kobe Bryant offers me some prop bet in basketball for like 100k, I probably won't take it, regardless of how great it sounds for me.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 05:09 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

what was in it for curtains?




10% freeroll




Hey now, I negotiated a bit more than 10% I got like 8k, Im huge sucker.


Victor
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 05:09 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

curtains, i think i could take you at rook odds. im not rated or anything and dont have any real chess experience.

citanul
(SNG Pooh-Bah)
06/28/07 05:11 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

curtains,

why are both you and your sister currently on massive (~100 pt) rating downswings?


durron597
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 05:12 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

durrr never flat out gave away material in one move and seemed to be working very hard.




Not responding to 22. Bd2 in the first down a rook game?


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 05:14 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

wow, some of the estimations of how big or small a knight or rook odds are are totally absurd. i don't have a great estimation of what it is, though curtains likely does. however it's obviously a scale that changes. while skills and ratings clump near the top, (even due to just the plain rating adjustment formula being different for higher ratings than low) the same is obviously not true for lower and mid ratings.

my impulse is that no adequately strong (probably any random 2200+ish but maybe any random IM+ is what's necessary. but hey, i'd personally doubt that an expert (2000+) would lose to a champion given a knight) player would ever lose to the world champion if given a knight, and probably 2 pawns would be enough as well.

however the difference between a 1400 and a 2000 is just absurd, and considering we're probably looking at durrr being like an 1100-1200(?), and curtains being a 2400+ (uscf), well, it's just a ridiculous difference.





durrr isn't 1100-1200. I am very sensitive to people overrating others because I have had a lot of students in my old schools who actually were 1100-1200. At the moment durrrr is probably in the 900-1050 range. He has an edge because he was relatively smart, in that he was taking the game very seriously and being very careful before every move he made. A weakness of most 900-1100 players is that they move too quickly and it causes them to make huge blunders.

Many times durrrr had made a blunder and was about to move but always saw it (We had a rule that he could make the move on the board but he was still open to make any other move until he actually hit his clock).

The problem is that he has simply no chess experience and knowledge, so he would make too many moves that had nothing to do with what a normal seasoned chessplayer would make. For instance b3 in the 2nd game has absolutely zero to do with the position. He was good at not simply putting pieces where I can take them, but unfortunately that wasn't enough.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 05:18 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

curtains,

why are both you and your sister currently on massive (~100 pt) rating downswings?





I dunno haven't played in years. Right before I stopped playing I was like 2500 and played a few filler games in a tournament I run. A filler game is when you aren't even playing in the event and you play against someone who is, probably not the ideal conditions to play chess. Anyway I managed to lose all 3 times to lower rated opponents, dropping my rating like 40-50 points almost.


BustoPro
(enthusiast)
06/28/07 05:44 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

curtains,

about what uscf rating would you estimate a player would have to carry to be 50/50 with you playing down a knight? down a rook?




Knight: 1400-1500?
Rook: 1200-1300?

Random guesses could be off easily.




Way too low for even money odds. These would be more like 85% you. Course that IS even money for a n__.


Admo
(2p2's Photoshop Laureate)
06/28/07 06:20 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Less nerdspeak, more prop bets plzkthx.

berya
(addict)
06/28/07 06:31 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for raptor

"One of the best lines from the chess match #1:

Durrr: damn I screwed up back there, if I didnt make that mistake I couldve won this one.

Curtains: Now let's not get carried away."




Ship Ship McGipp
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 06:33 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

what is the best way to learn chess fast and get prettty good at it, assuming you have very little prior experience, know nothing techincally, but pick stuff up extraordinarily fast

chesterboy
(journeyman)
06/28/07 06:47 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

curtains i always thought a real fun idea would be something like this on ICC:

Give GM's something like 20:1 odds against one of the toughest comps on there at a blitz game. I like watching top players get destroyed by the comp, would be even more fun if there was money involved. Too bad you can't bet money on ICC.


csuf_gambl0o0r
(addict)
06/28/07 06:49 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

speaking of chess and grandmasters, check this gangsta shiet out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evZmpsl3jI0


Reef
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 06:49 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

what is the best way to learn chess fast and get prettty good at it, assuming you have very little prior experience, know nothing techincally, but pick stuff up extraordinarily fast




get lessons , ldo


El Diablo
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 07:04 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

curtains,

"Despite that ok I'd probably win starting with 2 minutes on my clock, but it'd be a lot closer."

Just to clarify, you are saying 2 minute clock vs 60 min AND down a rook, right?


fatpipe
(journeyman)
06/28/07 07:41 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

speaking of chess and grandmasters, check this gangsta shiet out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evZmpsl3jI0




nh


ig06
(newbie)
06/28/07 07:48 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

my impulse is that no adequately strong (probably any random 2200+ish but maybe any random IM+ is what's necessary. but hey, i'd personally doubt that an expert (2000+) would lose to a champion given a knight) player would ever lose to the world champion if given a knight, and probably 2 pawns would be enough as well.





As I mentioned above, this has already been tested (with a measly 4 game sample size ;-)) in the Kasparov-Chapman charity match a few years back. Chapman was a bit under 2200 and had two pawn odds in each game. Kasparov won 2.5-1.5.


Savant
(Banned!)
06/28/07 08:04 PM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Totally off topic but has anyone heard about a chess game between A known poker player that i think was Ram Vaswani and a well known Grand Master. The rumor i heard was they bet 100,000 and ram got 10-1. The rest of the rumor was that ram used an ear piece linked to a computer that had not lost ever in simulation. Obviously ram whips the GM and questions about how its possible for a poker player to beat a GM. Well i heard they caught known poker player with the ear piece and found out what happened. Pretty crazy if true. Any real info on if this actually occured and the actual players involved would be great! Again i have no actual knowledge if this is true just a rumor i heard




Complete and utter rubbish.


PLOlover
(Novator KS-172 AAM-L)
06/28/07 08:09 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

unless durrr is a club level player (which would have been mentioned i guess) this is very very +EV for raptorrrrr




yeah does he even have a rating?


Chump Change
(EuroBBV)
06/28/07 08:21 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

you guys are under estimating the different ways a GM could play to prevent you from simply trading pieces, specifically not using an opening you are familiar with like


e4 e5
nf3 nc6
bc4 nf6




Anybody that doesn't know that opening can't call themselves a competent player. Which side does the GM have in that sequence?


You do make a good point though KKF, one I alluded to earlier, in that the GM would have a harder time compromising the weaker player without a knight as oppopsed to without a rook.




no, i meant the GM wouldnt be playing a simple opening like that which would allow him to just trade pieces. d4 d5 is much harder to play than e5 e4 imho.

i think a rook is more valuable than a knight, not that it matters much because durrr had zero chance.




Ah I see, misread your post. Yeah, you're absolutely right.


pete fabrizio
(Pooh-Bah)
06/28/07 08:22 PM
Re: Durrrr in process of losing 60k in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Totally off topic but has anyone heard about a chess game between A known poker player that i think was Ram Vaswani and a well known Grand Master. The rumor i heard was they bet 100,000 and ram got 10-1. The rest of the rumor was that ram used an ear piece linked to a computer that had not lost ever in simulation. Obviously ram whips the GM and questions about how its possible for a poker player to beat a GM. Well i heard they caught known poker player with the ear piece and found out what happened. Pretty crazy if true. Any real info on if this actually occured and the actual players involved would be great! Again i have no actual knowledge if this is true just a rumor i heard




Complete and utter rubbish.




I think the GM would figure it out very very quickly.


Chump Change
(EuroBBV)
06/28/07 08:24 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Reading through these posts, it's amazing to me how people
can be so unappreciative of experts who have worked for
years to develop their skills. If you've heard of Johnny
Morton, the NFL wide receiver, who tried to fight in the
UFL after training in martial arts for 2 months... He
got knocked out in under 2 minutes.

Imagine if the prop bet was basketball; a chess grandmaster
is the chess equivalent of an NBA player ( or maybe even
all-star ) at the worst. The average "good" chess player,
( ie less than 1700 rating ) would be analogous to a
weekend gym rat who loves basketball.

Would anyone in their right mind bet on the gym rat no
matter HOW good the odds ? ( 10 point handicap to 20,
NBA player can only shoot from 3 point land... etc... )

Probably not... unless the NBA player had to play in
showshoes, or blind-folded, or something utterly
ridiculous...

Or imagine the gym rat vs. an NFL player, one-on-one,
a la those old American Gladiator events. How often
did the average Joe beat the Gladiator ???

My point is: non-experts tend to completely trivialize
the skills of experts in their field to their own
detriment; especially in games of skill or athletic
endeavors.




Sorry breaux but this is the worst analogy ever. It's not the NBA player playing with a point handicap, it's him playing without an arm.


ocdscale
(Pooh-Bah)
06/28/07 08:44 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Reading through these posts, it's amazing to me how people
can be so unappreciative of experts who have worked for
years to develop their skills. ...




Sorry breaux but this is the worst analogy ever. It's not the NBA player playing with a point handicap, it's him playing without an arm.




The point isn't the mechanics of the analogy, it's the contention that average people underestimate the ability of experts, which I agree with.

Most weekend players (in any sport/competition) simply don't realize how much they don't know and see professionals as better versions of themselves, e.g. weekend basketball player sees NBA pros as stronger/faster/more accurate versions of themselves when in reality, there's probably another complete level the pros are operating on that the amateur doesn't even see.


Chump Change
(EuroBBV)
06/28/07 08:51 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Reading through these posts, it's amazing to me how people
can be so unappreciative of experts who have worked for
years to develop their skills. ...




Sorry breaux but this is the worst analogy ever. It's not the NBA player playing with a point handicap, it's him playing without an arm.




The point isn't the mechanics of the analogy, it's the contention that average people underestimate the ability of experts, which I agree with.

Most weekend players (in any sport/competition) simply don't realize how much they don't know and see professionals as better versions of themselves, e.g. weekend basketball player sees NBA pros as stronger/faster/more accurate versions of themselves when in reality, there's probably another complete level the pros are operating on that the amateur doesn't even see.




Aye, but the discussion isn't about a weekend player. It seems that everybody, save for durrr, knew and knows the weekend player had no chance. The comment I quoted stemmed from the talk about seriously competitive players beating top players in certain conditions.

Plus, I still gotta say comparing not having a rook to spotting somebody points in 1 on 1 shows such a fundamental misunderstanding of chess and probably basketball as well.


Post-Oak
(old hand)
06/28/07 09:11 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Plus, I still gotta say comparing not having a rook to spotting somebody points in 1 on 1 shows such a fundamental misunderstanding of chess and probably basketball as well.




Yeah, people are really drawing the wrong conclusions from Durr's loss.

If you follow the games, then it is obvious that Durr has no idea how to play chess. A competent player should be able to at least draw an IM if they start up a rook.

Again, look at the first five moves of game 1:

1.d4 d5
2.c4 Bf5
3.Nc3 c6
4.Bf4 e6
5.c5 Qa5!!!

Qa5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The people who think this match shows that an IM can beat a lesser player if he is "only" spotting a rook clearly don't understand how badly Durr played.

He doesn't know how to play chess. When you realize this, his loss is not at all surprising.

Here's a better analogy. Let's say you set up a handicapped boxing match. One participant is a professional featherweight (126 lbs at weigh in) prizefighter, who has to wear 10 oz gloves. His opponent is a relatively untrained 210 pound man who can wear 3 oz. MMA gloves.

Well if the 210 pound man is short, obese, and old, then the lightweight will definitely win within one round. If the 210 pound man is an NFL wide receiver (to take a previous example), then the outcome will be very different.

Giving up a rook is a very big handicap, and it was only a good bet on Raptor's part because Durr is so awful at chess.


rory
(hugz & drugz)
06/28/07 10:30 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

this is only true if you are allowed to trade down. obviously curtains is going to play in such a way that you do not get into trade-everything-off-positions very easily

rory
(hugz & drugz)
06/28/07 10:33 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

i do not think you are a favorite over gary kasparov down a rook unless you are really strong.

justaPlayer
(member)
06/28/07 10:39 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

This thread has been very instrucive in itself, and I can see quite a few of you are very accomplished players.

Can someone recommend to me some good software that will not only help me learn but allow me to rate myself with accuracy and to play against a strong engine in a variety of formats (like setting it up to be down a rook, for example)?

What about the best place to play online (name of site) with other players?

Sorry everybody, I am just getting into chess and don't know where to turn to get better, as there are no instructors in my rural area. I will be moving to Las Vegas in a few months and will there join a club, but why wait to pursue an activity I enjoy? Thanks everybody for suggestions...

Btw I've been playing semi-seriously for 2 mo. and can beat "Chess Titans" (sometimes) on level 7 on Vista. When I started I couldn't beat it on 2. I really want to get better.


rory
(hugz & drugz)
06/28/07 10:41 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

as an example of an amateur getting gang raped by a GM down a rook:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1242893


Voltaire
(member)
06/28/07 11:00 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Pretty.

Thanks guys. I just "wasted" an hour with this thread. I only wish I could get an IM to play me a rook down for some serious cash. Durr is, as Curtain says, about a 950 USCF player. Only he didn't know that!

My estimate of how good a player has to be to have a +EV against an IM a rook up is around 1300. Against a GM maybe 1500.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 11:27 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Pretty.

Thanks guys. I just "wasted" an hour with this thread. I only wish I could get an IM to play me a rook down for some serious cash. Durr is, as Curtain says, about a 950 USCF player. Only he didn't know that!

My estimate of how good a player has to be to have a +EV against an IM a rook up is around 1300. Against a GM maybe 1500.




The difference between a normal IM and a GM in this bet is almost zero when facing low rated players. This should be extremely obvious and if you don't realize this you shouldn't be so cocky about how easily you'd win.


Your Mom
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 11:34 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

www.chessmail.com is ok.

curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 11:43 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

btw just a note, I am positive that a decent % of the people that say that they would win the bet easily and then mock durrr for losing, would not actually be a favorite in the bet. Some of you are, but I'd be almost certain that most of you aren't. Almost every chessplayer whom has never played in a tournament drastically overrates their ability. If you have never played in a tournament and think that you are about 1600, you are probably about 1200-1300. Basically just subtract 300-400 points from how good you are, and that's how good you actually are.

I know this through tremendous exposure to players who have never played rated games, yet seem to think they know how good they are.

Sorry to be mean, I just find it silly how so many people are talking about how easily they would win the bet, without once giving their actual rating or any credentials of any sort. I'm mainly saying this to defend durrrr.


FoxwoodsFiend
(Prahlad Friedman?)
06/28/07 11:48 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

btw just a note, I am positive that a decent % of the people that say that they would win the bet easily and then mock durrr for losing, would not actually be a favorite in the bet. Some of you are, but I'd be almost certain that most of you aren't. Almost every chessplayer whom has never played in a tournament drastically overrates their ability. If you have never played in a tournament and think that you are about 1600, you are probably about 1200-1300. Basically just subtract 300-400 points from how good you are, and that's how good you actually are.

I know this through tremendous exposure to players who have never played rated games, yet seem to think they know how good they are.

Sorry to be mean, I just find it silly how so many people are talking about how easily they would win the bet, without once giving their actual rating or any credentials of any sort. I'm mainly saying this to defend durrrr.




Curtains, you know nothing about chess. I would crush you if we made this bet. I play in the park by my house all the time and basically never lose.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 11:51 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

btw just a note, I am positive that a decent % of the people that say that they would win the bet easily and then mock durrr for losing, would not actually be a favorite in the bet. Some of you are, but I'd be almost certain that most of you aren't. Almost every chessplayer whom has never played in a tournament drastically overrates their ability. If you have never played in a tournament and think that you are about 1600, you are probably about 1200-1300. Basically just subtract 300-400 points from how good you are, and that's how good you actually are.

I know this through tremendous exposure to players who have never played rated games, yet seem to think they know how good they are.

Sorry to be mean, I just find it silly how so many people are talking about how easily they would win the bet, without once giving their actual rating or any credentials of any sort. I'm mainly saying this to defend durrrr.




Curtains, you know nothing about chess. I would crush you if we made this bet. I play in the park by my house all the time and basically never lose.





lol


SlackerMcFly
(Poet Laureate)
06/28/07 11:56 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Curtains, you know nothing about chess. I would crush you if we made this bet. I play in the park by my house all the time and basically never lose.




Maybe so, but can you beat him at "Guitar Hero?"

Actual footage:

Curtains shredding a guitar while not playing chess


Victor
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/28/07 11:57 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

"btw just a note, I am positive that a decent % of the people that say that they would win the bet easily and then mock durrr for losing, would not actually be a favorite in the bet."

i will make a bet.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 12:08 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

"btw just a note, I am positive that a decent % of the people that say that they would win the bet easily and then mock durrr for losing, would not actually be a favorite in the bet."

i will make a bet.





My statement is not intended to be a green light for everyone who thinks they personally are the exception to this rule to comment on it.

btw if we are playing speed chess (3-5 minutes per side) I will almost certainly be a huge favorite against anyone here that has never played in a USCF rated tournament, or will play any USCF rated player under 1600.


Chump Change
(EuroBBV)
06/29/07 12:29 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

One of my first comments was how intelligent durrr is, and I hope I speak for everyone when I say that being inexperienced in chess and lacking some basic fundamentals =/= dumb.

CamelZoo
(old hand)
06/29/07 12:30 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

sn=hazard1414 on yahoo chess, i'm at 'intermediate --> adequate' if anyone wants to play some blitz. holla

Daliman
(Wong Messiah)
06/29/07 12:53 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

speaking of chess and grandmasters, check this gangsta shiet out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evZmpsl3jI0



This guy's a shyster, check out the blackjack vid he has up:
OH, you HIT a 16 vs a 6?!?


Post-Oak
(old hand)
06/29/07 12:56 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

One of my first comments was how intelligent durrr is, and I hope I speak for everyone when I say that being inexperienced in chess and lacking some basic fundamentals =/= dumb.




This is the point I wanted to make too.

I was one of the people who said Durr is clearly awful at chess, but I don't feel I was attacking or slamming him.

After seeing the first 5 moves of games 1, it is already clear that he has no formal training and most likely has never read a book on chess.

There is absolutely no shame in being a weak chess player under these circumstances, and no one is questioning his intelligence.

I do agree with Curtains that most people who think they could beat him with a rook advantage are mistaken. They would surely put up a better fight though.

In fact, I think it would take a very strong player to win outright a majority of the time. You would have to count draws as wins for most people to have a chance.


Punker
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 12:56 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

If durr wants more action, I suspect I can find someone to back me to play against him in the same bet amount ($50K) and terms (rook down, G/60, best of 3 match) against him when I get to Vegas for the main event. My rating is about 2150.

ofishstix
(Pooh-Bah)
06/29/07 01:07 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

does it look pathetic for me that the last chess match i played was vs durrrr 2 years ago and that i was raped like whoa...at least my damgoodlookeingness offsets my lack of skills

Subfallen
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 01:18 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Wow this is a disaster, I can't believe anyone would do this. I thought Durrr was Jewish?

ofishstix
(Pooh-Bah)
06/29/07 01:22 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

durrr isnt jewish...hes some variety of christian/wishes he were jewish like non idiot prop betters

Dulce Liquido
(journeyman)
06/29/07 01:26 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

sn=hazard1414 on yahoo chess, i'm at 'intermediate --> adequate' if anyone wants to play some blitz. holla




Play on www.chessbase.com, the software is a million times better and it's well known everyone uses a comp on Yahoo.

Interesting thread. I play loads of new people all the time and they usually have a story about how they are the best amongst there group of friends. I tell them I'm awful Which is true (rated around 1900 Auschess), but relative to them most games aren't difficult. Funny how easy it is to consider yourself a good player when you haven't actually played some of club level or above.

Out of interest, how long do you think it would take someone of high intelligence to beat a GM or similar rated player with Rook odds? I'd hazard a guess and say 2 - 4 weeks of 12 hours daily study should be more than enough, maybe even one week if there a fast learner with a good teacher.


Sponger.
(HEADS WILL ROLL)
06/29/07 01:31 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Curtains, you know nothing about chess. I would crush you if we made this bet. I play in the park by my house all the time and basically never lose.




You "basically" never lose? Curtains has never lost.


TheAnswer
(addict)
06/29/07 01:33 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

i dont know about all this chess mumbo jumbo, but clearly durrr missed the move where he doubles the bet with raptor, then in secret offers curtains 10 or 15k to dump the match.

curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 01:36 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

sn=hazard1414 on yahoo chess, i'm at 'intermediate --> adequate' if anyone wants to play some blitz. holla




Play on www.chessbase.com, the software is a million times better and it's well known everyone uses a comp on Yahoo.

Interesting thread. I play loads of new people all the time and they usually have a story about how they are the best amongst there group of friends. I tell them I'm awful Which is true (rated around 1900 Auschess), but relative to them most games aren't difficult. Funny how easy it is to consider yourself a good player when you haven't actually played some of club level or above.

Out of interest, how long do you think it would take someone of high intelligence to beat a GM or similar rated player with Rook odds? I'd hazard a guess and say 2 - 4 weeks of 12 hours daily study should be more than enough, maybe even one week if there a fast learner with a good teacher.





2-4 weeks of daily study shouldn't be close to enough on average, not even remotely in the ballpark, assuming you are talking about a rank beginner.


whyherro
(enthusiast)
06/29/07 01:37 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Curtains - favorite opening?

curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 01:41 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Curtains - favorite opening?




I don't really have one anymore.


whyherro
(enthusiast)
06/29/07 01:52 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

In that case... e4 or d4?

and is kings gambit in the repotoire.


Punker
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 02:04 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

kings gambit in the repotoire.




Apparently you aren't aware that in the chess world, curtains is too much of a "chess bitch" (free plug!) to play the kings gambit. He always played d4 openings in the games I saw, unlike his early years playing the dragon.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 02:26 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

kings gambit in the repotoire.




Apparently you aren't aware that in the chess world, curtains is too much of a "chess bitch" (free plug!) to play the kings gambit. He always played d4 openings in the games I saw, unlike his early years playing the dragon.





Basically never played 1.d4. Most of my career I played 1.e4, and maybe 20-30% of 1.c4. Now that I don't study openings anymore I just play 1.c4 and hope for the best.


Dulce Liquido
(journeyman)
06/29/07 02:29 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra


2-4 weeks of daily study shouldn't be close to enough on average, not even remotely in the ballpark, assuming you are talking about a rank beginner.




What do you think would be a better estimate?


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 02:32 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:


2-4 weeks of daily study shouldn't be close to enough on average, not even remotely in the ballpark, assuming you are talking about a rank beginner.




What do you think would be a better estimate?





I dunno, some people simply have no talent and will have major trouble with even a lot of training. I mean there are lots of kids who study for years and never get above 1300-1500. The same is true of many adults. Of course most adults just assume it won't be the case with them. Also it takes a lot of practice playing, I think it takes more time. Like 2-3 hours of study per day over a longer period of time would be more beneficial.


T_Mac
(old hand)
06/29/07 02:35 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

fun thread, anyone else tempted to start playing chess?

bottomset
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 03:18 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

anyone think that durrrr deliberately took this bet as a huge underdog to set up a later huge bet as a moderate to big favorite?

or is it entirely durrr is just a propbetting fish with way too much money?

curtains how many hourse of dedicated chess training to you estimate it would take for durrr to be 50/50 in the match?


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 03:21 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

anyone think that durrrr deliberately took this bet as a huge underdog to set up a later huge bet as a moderate to big favorite?

or is it entirely durrr is just a propbetting fish with way too much money?

curtains how many hourse of dedicated chess training to you estimate it would take for durrr to be 50/50 in the match?




no idea, but probably at least a year of playing chess on a very serious level, and maybe signifigantly longer. Its almost impossible because he would have to stop playing poker as much as he does, and theres really no reason for him to do that?


The Yugoslavian
(STTF-HUC II Champion)
06/29/07 03:23 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:


or is it entirely durrr is just a propbetting fish with way too much money?





QFT

Also for everyone trying to figure out how to get someone to be +EV in this bet, you can't just take a random person...you really need to look for someone already decent at chess.

Soooooooo many ppl spend TONS of time on chess and simply never get very good. Or get decent yet somehow not better.

Yugoslav


phifediggy
(enthusiast)
06/29/07 03:27 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

T_Mac, i used to play chess and i don't think it's that much fun anymore. bughouse is a fun variation.

curtains, you ever play in the world open in philly?


Voltaire
(member)
06/29/07 03:40 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Curtains, I've known a lot of chess players, and one thing I've learned is that some of them have no idea how good a grandmaster is. They haven't a clue about the kind of work that goes into playing at that level.

Apparently that is exactly the nerve I hit. You don't know me from Adam, but you would be very unwise to spot me a rook.


Voltaire
(member)
06/29/07 03:47 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Obviously with such a rating, you are a big favorite. Such a match would be the equivalent of rope-a-dope. But Curtains won't take you up on it, and you know it.

curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 03:48 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Curtains, I've known a lot of chess players, and one thing I've learned is that some of them have no idea how good a grandmaster is. They haven't a clue about the kind of work that goes into playing at that level.

Apparently that is exactly the nerve I hit. You don't know me from Adam, but you would be very unwise to spot me a rook.





ok but if you were the one who said there would be a differnece between whether you were playing a GM or IM in this bet, then you don't understand really. Honestly the difference between me and a GM in this bet is neglible and I actually think I'll do better than a lot of GM's because it becomes less about chess and more about psychology and predicting how a bad player will play. Given that I play poker and thus have a strong practical feel I feel confident that my results would equal those of maybe 30-50% of GMs in this type of bet. Since your opponents need to make mistakes for you to win, it comes down often to predicting what kind of mistakes your opponents are likely to make. At least I think this is true.

Also the things that GM's understand that I don't understand are hardly going to be applicable in a game against such weak opposition. Hence I have reason to doubt someone's chess understanding if they think that a GM will beat a 1500 in this bet but an IM will only beat a 1300. Its probably only going to be a 50 point difference on average with this specific type of wager.


Voltaire
(member)
06/29/07 04:10 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Curtains, I've known a lot of chess players, and one thing I've learned is that some of them have no idea how good a grandmaster is. They haven't a clue about the kind of work that goes into playing at that level.

Apparently that is exactly the nerve I hit. You don't know me from Adam, but you would be very unwise to spot me a rook.





ok but if you were the one who said there would be a differnece between whether you were playing a GM or IM in this bet, then you don't understand really. Honestly the difference between me and a GM in this bet is neglible and I actually think I'll do better than a lot of GM's because it becomes less about chess and more about psychology and predicting how a bad player will play.



I agree about the psychology, and the point I was going to make is that it is the "extras" of hard work, maniacal devotion, and starting young that make the major difference between IMs and GMs. But there is also a psychological level, and the great GM are also masters at that level, whereas a lot of IMs are just gifted chess players who started playing young and encountered a lot of distractions and never really had the passion or drive (or stupidity!)to become GMs.

Consequently, I think that a GM would find some way to win a rook down significantly more often against a weaker player than an IM would.

But you're right, now that I think about it. Against Durrr as a, I guess, 950 player, it wouldn't make much difference.

Could Durrr (or a similar player) be hustling you? Playing over the two games (by the way, was ...Qxg7 in game one the best move?) it seems clear that you would win even more easily if there were another match. Some posters think Durrr would learn what he needs to do to win, but I suspect for a long time things will just get worse for him since the teacher always learns more about the student than the student learns about the teacher.


aislephive
(Ninja Edit Mastar)
06/29/07 04:19 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Curtains,

How many more pieces / which ones do think you would have to get rid of before the bet becomes +EV for durrr? Do you think you could still win if your queen was taken?


almostbusto
(veteran)
06/29/07 04:19 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

-Curtains


grats on the score! i just wanted to say i have loosely followed you and your sister since around 2000 when i caught some of your games in chess life. I had an autographed copy of your sister's chess life cover on my wall for like 4 years in college (the black and white one that came out shortly after her winning the women's title i think).

/end stalker rant.


I think a lot of people don't realize:
how god awful durr is at chess.
how great curtains actually is (even though he is rusty).
how hard it is for someone at durr's level to even get to the 1200-1400 level (for most people).
how much the clock plays a role in the odds making. ie, greg might be even money against a 1300 down a knight at G60, but a huge favorite at 5 minute blitz chess, and a dead lock at 1 minute chess over the internet.

i don't know if greg has experience at 1 minute time controls, but if he has the mousing skills, i bet he could take out some pretty experienced opponents down a rook. however, at tournament time controls, i would probably crush him every game i manage to avoid making a really out of character blunder. I am USCF 1726 (small sample size) fwiw, 1700 (lifetime high of 1992) on fics blitz over 6000+ games.


also:

Total time online: 65 days, 6 hrs, 54 mins
% of life online: 2.4 (since Fri Mar 3, 14:22 PST 200


EDIT: just logged in, i guess i am down to the 1630's right now... talk about a downswing...
)


apefish
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 04:40 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Game 2, I'm black, queen's rook is missing. At the very end when he lost his queen he had only a few seconds left.


1.g3 d5 2.Bg2 e5 3.d3 c6 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.Bd2 Bg4 6.Nc3 Qc8 7.h3 Be6 8.e3 Nf6 9.Qe2 0-0 10.Ng5 Bd7 11.e4 d4 12.Nd1 c5 13.f4 h6 14.Nf3 Nh5 15.Qf2 exf4 16.Bxf4 Bxf4 17.gxf4 Nxf4 18.Qg3 Qc7 19.Qh2 f5 20.b3 fxe4 21.dxe4 Qa5+ 22.Nd2 Nc6 23.Rf1 g5 24.h4 Nb4 25.Rc1 Qa3 26.Rb1 Nxc2+ 27.Kf2 Qb4 28.Nf3 g4 29.Qg3 Kh7 30.a3 Qb6 31.Bh1 d3 32.Ne3 c4 33.Qxf4 Rxf4 34.Kg3 Qxe3 0-1





Curtains, congrats on the win but please stop helping aholes build the bomb k thnx.


El Diablo
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 04:44 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

curtains,

When I was like 7 I used to play chess and I was pretty much the best kid among the kids I played with. And this was in London, I'm not talking about dumb American chess playing kids. Anyway, my teacher said I would be awesome if I played more, but I didn't bother. If I had kept playing chess I would totally be able to kick your ass now.


Spechel EDD
(h0t PiNk 4|yf3)
06/29/07 04:51 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

as an example of an amateur getting gang raped by a GM down a rook:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1242893




wow this is absolutely incredible. watching this i kept thinking why the hell he was giving up pieces so easily like that.


shaniac
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 04:56 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

This thread makes me wish I knew how to play chess.

almostbusto
(veteran)
06/29/07 04:59 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

-El Diablo


i know your post was sarcastic, but apparently you are Indian, so yea you might be right.

that is a classic a chess myth though, everyone thinks they are pretty decent at chess or they had potential in the game because they beat up on all their buddies/family members who can hardly visualize how a knight moves. they don't realize that probably translates to 600-800 strength.

in reality, the game is a bitch. i am a pretty smart guy, i have put a lot of effort into my game, i have a bunch of chess books on my shelves, and i am an absolute nobody at the game. i am barely skilled enough to be considered respectable at the club level. i takes a lot of work and dedication to be at all decent at the game. the one exception might be if you are exposed to great players from a young age and have access to tutoring and coaching. i am completely self-taught (well i learned from books so i guess thats not *completely* self-taught) so i wouldn't know how much having a mentor would help. i never played someone who was 1400 strength in person until about 3 or 4 years after i bought my first chess book. one of the pitfalls of living in the rural west.


Dulce Liquido
(journeyman)
06/29/07 05:43 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:


I dunno, some people simply have no talent and will have major trouble with even a lot of training. I mean there are lots of kids who study for years and never get above 1300-1500. The same is true of many adults. Of course most adults just assume it won't be the case with them. Also it takes a lot of practice playing, I think it takes more time. Like 2-3 hours of study per day over a longer period of time would be more beneficial.




Y, I agree.

I was wondering in the case of a player like Durr who obviously has a natural aptitude for mental games.
If you were to take the bet again for rook odds and knew he had exactly one month to practise/study and use any tools at his disposal, would you?

I would guess a solid 1400-1500 player would win this provided they were rated such for stronger middle and endgame play, not blind memorization of openings...


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 05:51 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:


I dunno, some people simply have no talent and will have major trouble with even a lot of training. I mean there are lots of kids who study for years and never get above 1300-1500. The same is true of many adults. Of course most adults just assume it won't be the case with them. Also it takes a lot of practice playing, I think it takes more time. Like 2-3 hours of study per day over a longer period of time would be more beneficial.




Y, I agree.

I was wondering in the case of a player like Durr who obviously has a natural aptitude for mental games.
If you were to take the bet again for rook odds and knew he had exactly one month to practise/study and use any tools at his disposal, would you?

I would guess a solid 1400-1500 player would win this provided they were rated such for stronger middle and endgame play, not blind memorization of openings...





I guess I'd probably still be a favorite but of course the more he works the tougher itd be.


Lalu
(stranger)
06/29/07 06:15 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I'm not sure exactly where the rating cutoff for someone like curtains to be still be a favorite against with rook odds, but my guess is it's about 1200-1300. I'd think a 1400-1500 would be a favorite, but who can really be sure.

"you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world."


That's completely wrong on so many levels. Play defensively and just force trades?? If it was that easy, why couldn't you just do that in regular chess and guarantee at least a draw in any game? I consider myself a reasonably competitive player, and I'm quite certain I'd be an underdog with pawn odds against the top GMs (and I'd guess curtains likely would be too, but unsure)."

Anyways, very cool bet overall, wish I coulda gotten in on some of that action. If you're up for more of it, I'll take you on curtains in blitz (EVEN MATERIAL, just give me 3 to 2 time odds), and I'll take some of your newfound $8k off of you


darom03
(don't call me, I'll call you)
06/29/07 06:17 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

speaking of chess and grandmasters, check this gangsta shiet out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evZmpsl3jI0




nh




One of the comments on Youtube were spot on (for once!):

"so he watched the first table where his opponent moved a white pawn, and decided not to respond because he had to do the same move at table 5 first. And person 1 didn't ask any questions why he was running of when it was his turn ??

Then at table 5, he is standing there and waiting for his opponent to respond with a black move, and right after he did, he just runs off (when it's his turn again)

Lol, I can't believe none of those smart grandmasters figured out what was going on ."

Come on! They had to figure it out somewhere down the line.


almostbusto
(veteran)
06/29/07 06:25 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

speaking of chess and grandmasters, check this gangsta shiet out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evZmpsl3jI0




nh




One of the comments on Youtube were spot on (for once!):

"so he watched the first table where his opponent moved a white pawn, and decided not to respond because he had to do the same move at table 5 first. And person 1 didn't ask any questions why he was running of when it was his turn ??

Then at table 5, he is standing there and waiting for his opponent to respond with a black move, and right after he did, he just runs off (when it's his turn again)

Lol, I can't believe none of those smart grandmasters figured out what was going on ."

Come on! They had to figure it out somewhere down the line.




do you have any ideas on how he figured out how many pieces would be left on the board when the game concluded? or was that bit of the trick actually setup?


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 06:34 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

I'm not sure exactly where the rating cutoff for someone like curtains to be still be a favorite against with rook odds, but my guess is it's about 1200-1300. I'd think a 1400-1500 would be a favorite, but who can really be sure.

"you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world."


That's completely wrong on so many levels. Play defensively and just force trades?? If it was that easy, why couldn't you just do that in regular chess and guarantee at least a draw in any game? I consider myself a reasonably competitive player, and I'm quite certain I'd be an underdog with pawn odds against the top GMs (and I'd guess curtains likely would be too, but unsure)."

Anyways, very cool bet overall, wish I coulda gotten in on some of that action. If you're up for more of it, I'll take you on curtains in blitz (EVEN MATERIAL, just give me 3 to 2 time odds), and I'll take some of your newfound $8k off of you





lololol


darom03
(don't call me, I'll call you)
06/29/07 06:51 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

speaking of chess and grandmasters, check this gangsta shiet out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evZmpsl3jI0




nh




One of the comments on Youtube were spot on (for once!):

"so he watched the first table where his opponent moved a white pawn, and decided not to respond because he had to do the same move at table 5 first. And person 1 didn't ask any questions why he was running of when it was his turn ??

Then at table 5, he is standing there and waiting for his opponent to respond with a black move, and right after he did, he just runs off (when it's his turn again)

Lol, I can't believe none of those smart grandmasters figured out what was going on ."

Come on! They had to figure it out somewhere down the line.




do you have any ideas on how he figured out how many pieces would be left on the board when the game concluded? or was that bit of the trick actually setup?




The envelope thing is an old school magic trick seen plenty of times before. Instead of a sheet of paper in an envelope it could be that card you just signed from the deck etc.

What really puzzles me is how he beat the President of a chess club. That should mean that he actually is quite good at chess. I don't think he cheated on that one.

But the main problem with this trick is to actually trick eight masters of the game to believe they are not playing each other. I am sure they caught up with the scam and just acted out the rest.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 06:51 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

I'm not sure exactly where the rating cutoff for someone like curtains to be still be a favorite against with rook odds, but my guess is it's about 1200-1300. I'd think a 1400-1500 would be a favorite, but who can really be sure.

"you really have to be quite bad at chess to ever lose with a rook advantage against anyone. just play defensively and force a bunch of trades -- they don't all even have to be even -- and you'll be unstoppable in the endgame. this is why chess is a terrible game to handicap -- a single pawn advantage would be enough to make any competitive player a favorite against the top gm's in the world."


That's completely wrong on so many levels. Play defensively and just force trades?? If it was that easy, why couldn't you just do that in regular chess and guarantee at least a draw in any game? I consider myself a reasonably competitive player, and I'm quite certain I'd be an underdog with pawn odds against the top GMs (and I'd guess curtains likely would be too, but unsure)."

Anyways, very cool bet overall, wish I coulda gotten in on some of that action. If you're up for more of it, I'll take you on curtains in blitz (EVEN MATERIAL, just give me 3 to 2 time odds), and I'll take some of your newfound $8k off of you





lololol





No [censored] way in hell Im an underdog against the top GM's with pawn odds, especially if I can choose the pawn. Pretty sure I would book action on myself against Kramnik for sure if he starts without his f7-pawn.


Lalu
(stranger)
06/29/07 07:02 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Well my assumption was it would be the a or h pawn handicapped, obv if it was f pawn or one of the two center pawns big difference. I would honestly take kramnik vs. you if it was the a or h pawn. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. In any case regarding your previous post, your lolol, you laughing it off cause you're scared, or you will to take the challenge? Don't be afraid now, you don't want to have to be remembered for backing out of a match like your pal Donny

curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 07:14 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Well my assumption was it would be the a or h pawn handicapped, obv if it was f pawn or one of the two center pawns big difference. I would honestly take kramnik vs. you if it was the a or h pawn. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. In any case regarding your previous post, your lolol, you laughing it off cause you're scared, or you will to take the challenge? Don't be afraid now, you don't want to have to be remembered for backing out of a match like your pal Donny




a or h pawn is different story but I still feel relatively good, but of course a bit less confident

Lalu Ill give you 3:00 to 2:50


quirkasaurus
(addict)
06/29/07 07:29 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

From Chump Change:

[QUOTE]
Aye, but the discussion isn't about a weekend player. It seems that everybody, save for durrr, knew and knows the weekend player had no chance. The comment I quoted stemmed from the talk about seriously competitive players beating top players in certain conditions.

Plus, I still gotta say comparing not having a rook to spotting somebody points in 1 on 1 shows such a fundamental misunderstanding of chess and probably basketball as well.
[/QUOTE]

From Curtains:

[QUOTE]
I don't think its a bad analogy at all. If a friend of Kobe Bryant offers me some prop bet in basketball for like 100k, I probably won't take it, regardless of how great it sounds for me.
[/QUOTE]

Well, at least Curtains agrees with me.

My point is simply that non-professionals and layman alike tend to
seriously underestimate the skills of professionals and experts.

Does an analogy of a top billiards player work better for you ?

Doesn't losing a $50,000 prop bet seem to support my premise ?
How seriously did durr underestimate curtains ?


Madd
(addict)
06/29/07 07:39 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

No [censored] way in hell Im an underdog against the top GM's with pawn odds




I'd pick Morozevich without c2-pawn against you.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 07:46 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

No [censored] way in hell Im an underdog against the top GM's with pawn odds




I'd pick Morozevich without c2-pawn against you.





Ok I assumed that without a pawn meant the standard f-pawn handicap. Also realize that if you aren't talking about literally the top 10-20 players in the world, I would easily be a favorite IMO. I only have trouble discussing them because I never actually played someone who was currently ranked 1-10 in the world. I have played plenty from 50-100, and there is no way in hell they will back themselves in a match against me starting without a pawn. If they want to they know where to find me.

Let's put it this way. I wouldn't back myself in a match against someone 300 points lower rated than me, if I started without a pawn, although it might be close. That means it should be even less likely that someone 300 points higher rated than me, should feel confident playing me down a pawn. The reason for this is that small advantages have more value when the ratings of the players involved are higher. Note that no one in the world is ranked more than 350 points higher than me.

So logically I either underestimate my abilities to beat a 2150 FIDE player without a pawn (and I really think I'm an underdog), or there is something seriously wrong with these arguments.


Madd
(addict)
06/29/07 08:13 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

No [censored] way in hell Im an underdog against the top GM's with pawn odds




I'd pick Morozevich without c2-pawn against you.





Let's put it this way. I wouldn't back myself in a match against someone 300 points lower rated than me, if I started without a pawn, although it might be close. That means it should be even less likely that someone 300 points higher rated than me, should feel confident playing me down a pawn. The reason for this is that small advantages have more value when the ratings of the players involved are higher. Note that no one in the world is ranked more than 350 points higher than me.

So logically I either underestimate my abilities to beat a 2150 FIDE player without a pawn (and I really think I'm an underdog), or there is something seriously wrong with these arguments.





I completely agree with the part that small advantages have more value when the ratings of the players involved are higher. But, I would pick you in a match (8 games, 30 min each, pawn odds, a-pawn in game 1, b-pawn in game 2 etc.) against somebody with 2150. Anyway, here we are on to something because the outcome of a match like this (or a match of you vs a 2700+) wouldn't be determined beforehand. Somewhere along these lines there should be a fair prop bet.

ps:
raptor,
curtains


etizzle
(Pooh-Bah)
06/29/07 10:15 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

No [censored] way in hell Im an underdog against the top GM's with pawn odds




I'd pick Morozevich without c2-pawn against you.





Ok I assumed that without a pawn meant the standard f-pawn handicap. Also realize that if you aren't talking about literally the top 10-20 players in the world, I would easily be a favorite IMO. I only have trouble discussing them because I never actually played someone who was currently ranked 1-10 in the world. I have played plenty from 50-100, and there is no way in hell they will back themselves in a match against me starting without a pawn. If they want to they know where to find me.

Let's put it this way. I wouldn't back myself in a match against someone 300 points lower rated than me, if I started without a pawn, although it might be close. That means it should be even less likely that someone 300 points higher rated than me, should feel confident playing me down a pawn. The reason for this is that small advantages have more value when the ratings of the players involved are higher. Note that no one in the world is ranked more than 350 points higher than me.

So logically I either underestimate my abilities to beat a 2150 FIDE player without a pawn (and I really think I'm an underdog), or there is something seriously wrong with these arguments.




curtains after this thread you are now on the very very short list of people from 2p2 i think i would actually enjoy meeting. congrats.


StregaChess
(old hand)
06/29/07 11:26 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

The reason for this is that small advantages have more value when the ratings of the players involved are higher.




This is a sound point, but I’m not sure that the 300 points gaps are actually linear steps. I believe the k-factor for FIDE ratings is different for players below 2400. I don’t recall exactly but let’s agree for this example that below 2400 the k-factor is 24 and above it is drops to 18. The impact on rating gains would results in a player below 2400 who defeats someone of the same rating would gain 12 points, a player above 2400 who defeats a player of same rating would only gain 9. The outcome is that it is more difficult to go from 2400 to 2500, than it is to go from 2300 to 2400. However even with this being the case I believe your point of smaller advantages having more value as the ratings increase would offset some of the k-factor issues but I’m not sure entirely.
“….So logically I either underestimate my abilities to beat..” I think you are just using solid judgment, it’s not a bet that I’d want a piece of from either side.
I am (was) 2275 FIDE like two thousand year ago, anyone want to create a prop bet with Curtains and someone over the hill?


Punker
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 11:39 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Obviously with such a rating, you are a big favorite. Such a match would be the equivalent of rope-a-dope. But Curtains won't take you up on it, and you know it.




No - I mean I as the 2150 player will offer the same rook odds to durrr and play him for the same $50K. Not that I would play curtains.


chesterboy
(journeyman)
06/29/07 11:59 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I don't have the money to be prop betting, but if i did I would bet on Durr if I coached him 2hrs a day for 30 days in the same match.

KingDan
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 12:05 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

All,

I'm out in Vegas now and willing to try the following props against novice players

1)I play blindfolded
2)I'll play at an extreme time disadvantage (as low as 30 seconds for the game)
3)Play a series of games, getting progressively drunker.
4) combination of 2 and 3

I'm a mid 2100 player (about 300 points less than curtains) but am kind of rusty since I stopped taking chess seriously when I found poker (about 2 years ago).


TomCowley
(enthusiast)
06/29/07 12:35 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

I don't have the money to be prop betting, but if i did I would bet on Durr if I coached him 2hrs a day for 30 days in the same match.




I'd take curtains for 50k again without hesitation. You grossly underestimate the time it takes to improve.

Quote:

Let's put it this way. I wouldn't back myself in a match against someone 300 points lower rated than me, if I started without a pawn, although it might be close. That means it should be even less likely that someone 300 points higher rated than me, should feel confident playing me down a pawn. The reason for this is that small advantages have more value when the ratings of the players involved are higher. Note that no one in the world is ranked more than 350 points higher than me.

So logically I either underestimate my abilities to beat a 2150 FIDE player without a pawn (and I really think I'm an underdog), or there is something seriously wrong with these arguments.




You might be underestimating yourself. I don't have any competitive experience with f-pawn odds, so it's a bit of a guess, but I wouldn't back myself against the best local player (FM, USCF ranging from 2275-2410) and I'm USCF ~2050. I'd play at 2:1 (after some time to work off ring rust).


Bronstein
(journeyman)
06/29/07 12:47 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

btw just a note, I am positive that a decent % of the people that say that they would win the bet easily and then mock durrr for losing, would not actually be a favorite in the bet.
...
Sorry to be mean, I just find it silly how so many people are talking about how easily they would win the bet, without once giving their actual rating or any credentials of any sort. I'm mainly saying this to defend durrrr.



I have playing strength 2100-2200 fide and I'm fully confident I can give knight-odds vs anyone who hasn't played in tourneys before. Someone who beats all his friends all the time, just can't compete with someone who plays tournaments. I've seen it a thousand times: they think they're great, they know you're good, so they wanna challenge you. After 10 moves you start feeling ashamed yourself because he played so poor that it will be too obvious if you don't mate him in the next 10 moves. (Btw mostly they don't even know the exact rules, when isn't castling allowed and en passant for example.)

Take knight-odds, that's worth 3 pawns. I easily draw a pawn down, so winning 2 pawns is enough for not losing. How can't he lose 2 pawns? He might not drop pieces, but just 2 pawns, that's easy. Mostly he'll give a few pieces or get mated of course.

Rook-odds are very different cause you're unlikely to get 4 pawns, so he has to lose a piece and then some just to equalize.

Winning blindfold vs someone who never played tournaments is just as easy btw. It's even safer as you don't have to rely on his mistakes. Just play your A-game and he won't ever get an advantage.


Sponger.
(HEADS WILL ROLL)
06/29/07 01:27 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

This thread makes me wish I knew how to play chess.




This thread just makes me confused. Although it is funny to see super nerds argue about chess pieces and ratings.


Reef
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 01:29 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

T_Mac, i used to play chess and i don't think it's that much fun anymore. bughouse is a fun variation.




OMFG bughouse is basically a mind-gasm to play .. so incredibly fun. WHAT SITE DO U PLAY IT AT?

Basically 2 v 2 chess and whatever pieces you capture you hand off to your partner and as his turn he can place a peice in a non-back row and non-occupied square


Reef
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 01:30 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Sponge, I bet if you gave it a chance you'd enjoy the game a LOT and would want to get better ASAP

Reef
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 01:41 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

I don't have the money to be prop betting, but if i did I would bet on Durr if I coached him 2hrs a day for 30 days in the same match.




I'd take curtains for 50k again without hesitation. You grossly underestimate the time it takes to improve.




I'd also bet on myself to be able to coach durrr to win the same bet if I had 2hrs a day for a month (PLUS some time like 5 min curtains vs 30 mins durr)


Victor
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 01:42 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

kingdan,

ill play you with rook odds.


Sponger.
(HEADS WILL ROLL)
06/29/07 01:43 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Sponge, I bet if you gave it a chance you'd enjoy the game a LOT and would want to get better ASAP




I have played Chess a few times. It is fun, but I'd rather spend my time doing other things.

That being said I will play Curtains in a 72k HU match if he gives me triple queen odds and lets my 3df and 7q pawns move two spaces at a time every other move. Also, if we end in a draw, a two man sack race on consecutive Sundays will decide the winner.


highhustla
(old hand)
06/29/07 01:47 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Sponger

KingDan
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 01:54 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

two more things

1) I will wreck anyone here in bughouse no contest
2) GMs tend to be pretty big pussies when the money is on the line.

In a big tourney 1st might be $15,000. On top board, either player who wins would clinch first place. Instead, they usually agree to a quick draw, where they get into a massive 6-7 way tie for first for like $4,000

Sometimes the stronger player will have WHITE (will prolly score upwards of 60%).
I understand they need the money to live off and yada yada, just has bugged me for a while.


CrushinFelt
(Pooh-Bah)
06/29/07 01:56 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I played chess for a while, but it's one of those things that you really plateau quickly in unless you really put a lot of conentrated effort towards improving.

I read a few articles and downloaded some programs and watched replays of chess matches with narration, but in the end I realized the best thing was getting stoned and thinking so far ahead that you can't remember how the hell the sequence started. [censored] hilarious every time.


NajdorfDefense
(Arbing for Dollars)
06/29/07 01:58 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

curtains,

When I was like 7 I used to play chess and I was pretty much the best kid among the kids I played with. ...Anyway, my teacher said I would be awesome if I played more, but I didn't bother. If I had kept playing chess I would totally be able to kick your ass now.




Stop bothering the IM, I will demolish your kingside 8 ways from Sunday for free, Masked Man!

The 'when I was 7 stories' from everyone are always classic. When I was 7, I was the best basketball player in my league, if I had kept playing, I'd beat Kobe Bryant....fo realz yo.


Gildwulf
(BBV4LIFE)
06/29/07 02:01 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

No [censored] way in hell Im an underdog against the top GM's with pawn odds




I'd pick Morozevich without c2-pawn against you.





Ok I assumed that without a pawn meant the standard f-pawn handicap. Also realize that if you aren't talking about literally the top 10-20 players in the world, I would easily be a favorite IMO. I only have trouble discussing them because I never actually played someone who was currently ranked 1-10 in the world. I have played plenty from 50-100, and there is no way in hell they will back themselves in a match against me starting without a pawn. If they want to they know where to find me.

Let's put it this way. I wouldn't back myself in a match against someone 300 points lower rated than me, if I started without a pawn, although it might be close. That means it should be even less likely that someone 300 points higher rated than me, should feel confident playing me down a pawn. The reason for this is that small advantages have more value when the ratings of the players involved are higher. Note that no one in the world is ranked more than 350 points higher than me.

So logically I either underestimate my abilities to beat a 2150 FIDE player without a pawn (and I really think I'm an underdog), or there is something seriously wrong with these arguments.




curtains after this thread you are now on the very very short list of people from 2p2 i think i would actually enjoy meeting. congrats.




because he's good at chess?


StregaChess
(old hand)
06/29/07 02:19 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:


In a big tourney 1st might be $15,000. On top board, either player who wins would clinch first place. Instead, they usually agree to a quick draw, where they get into a massive 6-7 way tie for first for like $4,000




If they don't trust each other or if they are stupid. If they are friends they can make more money by playing for the win. The "secret" deal is you play for the win and sum the prizes together (1st place share and 2nd place share) they split the prize fund 60% to the winner of the game 40% to the loser.
1st prize $15K, 2nd $10K 4 people in the running. If they all draw it's $6,250. With "the deal" the worse case is you you have two folks tied for 1st & 2nd for $12,500 per share but the folks that have the "deal" split it $7,500 - $5,000.
The best case is that the other guys draw and you have one clear winner of $15K and maybe 2nd gets bundled up so each share is worth $2K in that case the deal runs $10,200 to the winner and $6,800 to loser. It's sort of an "ethical" way to throw a game!? I know of some top players that have done this many many times....


Punker
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 02:23 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

1) I will wreck anyone here in bughouse no contest




If we get to pick our partners, you name the amount and your FICS user name and we can start discussing a wager.


KingDan
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 02:39 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Kingdan on fics and ICC. you?

GeniusToad
(veteran)
06/29/07 02:43 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:




I think a lot of people don't realize:
how god awful durr is at chess.
how great curtains actually is (even though he is rusty).
how hard it is for someone at durr's level to even get to the 1200-1400 level (for most people).
how much the clock plays a role in the odds making. ie, greg might be even money against a 1300 down a knight at G60, but a huge favorite at 5 minute blitz chess, and a dead lock at 1 minute chess over the internet.





i think maybe the first few dozen posters didn't realize these things but at this point they're all abundandtly clear - especially the durrrr sucking at chess part.

he has teh gambooool tho.


Punker
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 02:50 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Do you think you'd still be a favorite if I used a partner of Gnejs or WhoAmI?

KingDan
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 02:55 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

depends who you are. whats your fics handle

chesterboy
(journeyman)
06/29/07 03:03 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Does anyone play crazyhouse? When you capture a piece it turns to your color and you can place it. Basically 1 board bughouse. It is a lot of fun.

KingDan
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 03:11 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

i will wreck (nearly) anyone here at crazyhouse as well

chesterboy
(journeyman)
06/29/07 03:20 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

do you play on icc? I am chessisneat.

SlowHabit
(*)
06/29/07 03:28 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Curtains,

Just curious if you have ever played against an Indian kid [probably 23-ish now] by the name of Vinay Bhat? If yes, what do you think of his game and can you beat him?


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 03:29 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Curtains,

Just curious if you have ever played against an Indian kid [probably 23-ish now] by the name of Vinay Bhat? If yes, what do you think of his game and can you beat him?





I know him. I haven't played him but my sister beat him

Honestly we have about the same rating these days. I was a bit higher ranked than him when I was actively playing, but now that I'm not, he's a bit higher ranked than me.


KingDan
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 03:54 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

yes im kingdan there as well.

Ill give you timeodds, 3 minutes-90 second odds for $$, but would need an escrow obv because you have 7 posts and I have no idea who you are.


chesterboy
(journeyman)
06/29/07 04:00 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

i don't want to play for money, was just curious. I enjoy chess as a non gambling hobby.

iron81
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 05:07 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

non gambling hobby.





s33w33d
(enthusiast)
06/29/07 05:08 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Also any expert rated player should be a favorite over the World Champion at rook odds IMO.




Always inspired by your confidence

And yeah, I'd crush a GM with a rook up. This isn't even a discussion.


emerton
(newbie)
06/29/07 05:25 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

A quick tip.. dont play for money over internet with guys you dont trust/know, you cant know if he uses a chess engine.

chesterboy
(journeyman)
06/29/07 05:29 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

but if i were, i wonder what would be a good way to handicap games??

Maybe a pawn for every 200 points in rating difference?

I don't think that would work very well. Guess there is a reason not many people bet on chess.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 05:50 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Also any expert rated player should be a favorite over the World Champion at rook odds IMO.




Always inspired by your confidence

And yeah, I'd crush a GM with a rook up. This isn't even a discussion.





lol, I'm not trying to convince you.


Chump Change
(EuroBBV)
06/29/07 05:55 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

From Chump Change:

[QUOTE]
Aye, but the discussion isn't about a weekend player. It seems that everybody, save for durrr, knew and knows the weekend player had no chance. The comment I quoted stemmed from the talk about seriously competitive players beating top players in certain conditions.

Plus, I still gotta say comparing not having a rook to spotting somebody points in 1 on 1 shows such a fundamental misunderstanding of chess and probably basketball as well.
[/QUOTE]

From Curtains:

[QUOTE]
I don't think its a bad analogy at all. If a friend of Kobe Bryant offers me some prop bet in basketball for like 100k, I probably won't take it, regardless of how great it sounds for me.
[/QUOTE]

Well, at least Curtains agrees with me.

My point is simply that non-professionals and layman alike tend to
seriously underestimate the skills of professionals and experts.

Does an analogy of a top billiards player work better for you ?

Doesn't losing a $50,000 prop bet seem to support my premise ?
How seriously did durr underestimate curtains ?




Well, if you're familiar with any of my posts you realize I don't talk out of my ass.

I don't know much about much but 2 things I know quite a bit about are basketball and chess. If the analogy used any other spot I would've let it alone, but i've played both at a fairly competitive level and have played against elite and even competition (more basketball than chess, plus i've coached kids in the former) and figured i'd add my .02.

But i'm no trying to argue that point and definitely was not trying to insult or flame you.

I was simply saying that a more apt analogy to rook odds would be a basketball player playing with one hand or with an eyeptach or something where the weaker player might solve the problem and find a niche to exploit.

Spotting a player 15 points up to 24 is the same as spotting a player 15 games up to 24 in a chess match. The stronger player will be unstoppable but in a rook odds scenario or simliar the stronger player will be somewhat out of his element and thus somewhat susceptible to having this exploited.

That's all.


Lalu
(stranger)
06/29/07 05:58 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Yes any expert who couldn't crush a GM with rook odds, really must reevaluate their strength. To all who think curtains would still be a favorite vs. a 2150 with pawn odds: my challenge still stands, I don't even want pawn odds, I'll take him on at 3 to 2 time odds, just name your price and time

Chump Change
(EuroBBV)
06/29/07 06:03 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Curtains,

I'm a couple posts shy of reading the whole thing but I don't think this has been asked.

Did you have any rook odds opening preparation prior to this match, maybe just go over some of the old nimzowitsch or tarrasch odds games?


Bronstein
(journeyman)
06/29/07 06:04 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

GMs tend to be pretty big pussies when the money is on the line.

In a big tourney 1st might be $15,000. On top board, either player who wins would clinch first place. Instead, they usually agree to a quick draw, where they get into a massive 6-7 way tie for first for like $4,000

Sometimes the stronger player will have WHITE (will prolly score upwards of 60%).
I understand they need the money to live off and yada yada, just has bugged me for a while.



Most either have no clue whatsoever on how to determine +EV plays or they lack the guts.

I think a USA championship saw this recently. Like 10 people in first place, 4 boards make a quick draw (thus 8 players), the 5th board becomes a crazy game. Clearly +EV (for these 2 guys) in the short run, but especially in the long-run! Think of all the invitations you'll get when you win. It always amazes me how short-sighted some GMs can be.


Chump Change
(EuroBBV)
06/29/07 06:26 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Kingdan on fics and ICC. you?




Lolol I knew that name looked familiar. I've played with you a few times on ICC, I think you berated me when I was your bughouse partner when it was my 2nd or 3rd game, lol.


Post-Oak
(old hand)
06/29/07 06:27 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Curtains, I have a random question (since you don't seem to mind answering some).

What if you got to be white pieces, but your first two moves had to be

1. e3
2. Ke2???

How highly rated would black need to be in order to be a favorite to win/draw?


almostbusto
(veteran)
06/29/07 07:42 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

here is a good chess prop that is very winnable. better prop than raptor's at least imo because it doesn't rely on someone being crazy.

bet that you can draw (or even win against certain computers) a computer rated in the 2200-2600 range, probably don't want to go to high though since it will make it obvious something is up. make the time control 3 minutes (possible 2 or even 1 if you get good at it, no inc is critical though) and make sure the bet allows you 4 or so tries as white (also critical). if you are rated 1600-1700 like me you will NEVER beat a 2400+ computer at 3 minute chess through typical means. however, certain computers have little exploits that allow you to lock up the board very easily and just shuffle pieces for a draw, and very often win on time depending on how the computer's move selection algorithm works.


here is a demonstration i played today against a 2200ish computer. i am out of practice, it takes some getting used to, and every computer is different. so you definitely have to train with the particular software/hardware setup in advance. cherry picking the computer is KEY and its the only hitch that may turn off the mark.



1. d4 Nf6 2. e3 d5 3. f4 c5 4. c3 Qb6 5. Bd3 Nc6 6. Nf3 c4 7. Bc2 g6 8. O-O
Bf5 9. a3 Bxc2 10. Qxc2 h5 11. g3 Bg7 12. Rf2 Ne4 13. Rg2 Na5 14. Nbd2 Nb3
15. Rb1 Nexd2 16. Nxd2 f5 17. Nf3 a5 18. Bd2 a4 19. Be1 Qd6 20. Kh1 b5 21.
Kg1 Na5 22. Kh1 Nb7 23. Kg1 Qd7 24. Kh1 Nd6 25. Kg1 Ne4 26. Kh1 e6 27. Kg1
Qc7 28. Qe2 Qf7 29. Kh1 Qe7 30. Qf1 Qd6 31. Qg1 Qd7 32. Qf1 Ra5 33. Qg1 Nd6
34. Qf1 Ne4 35. Qg1 Qd8 36. Qf1 Qd6 37. Qg1 Qc7 38. Qf1 Qd6 39. Qg1 Qc7 40.
Qf1 Qa7 41. Qg1 Qf7 42. Qf1 Qb7 43. Qg1 Qa6 44. Qf1 Qa7 45. Qg1 Qb6 46. Qf1
Bf6 47. Qg1 Bg7 48. Qf1 Ra6 49. Qg1 Qd8 50. Qf1 Qd6 51. Qg1 Qb6 52. Qf1 Ra5
53. Qg1 Ra7 54. Qf1 Ra5 55. Qg1 Qb7 56. Qf1 Qe7 57. Qg1 Qa7 58. Qf1 Qa6 59.
Qg1 Qd6 60. Qf1 Qa6 61. Qg1 Qa8 62. Qf1 Qb7 63. Qg1 Qa7 64. Qf1 Bf6 65. Qg1
Qc7 66. Qf1 Bg7 67. Qg1 Ra8 68. Qf1 Ra5 69. Qg1 Qd7 70. Qf1 Qe7 71. Qg1 Qf8
72. Qf1 Qf7 73. Qg1 Bf6 74. Qf1 Bg7 75. Qg1 Qe7 76. Qf1 Qd8 77. Qg1
{Game drawn by the 50 move rule} 1/2-1/2

i didn't realize the 50 move rule was coming up so early or i would have put h4 in there... wouldn't have mattered though, this computer played fast it seemed and still had lots of time on the clock. usually when i get a win, the game goes 100-250 moves, this game locked up way too early to allow it to go much deeper.


hist 'riverplate' (not me, but its who i first saw employ this setup successfully) on fics for some better examples.

i have never actually bet on this because i don't know many people that are in to chess, and the few that i do don't have any money. so i might as well give it away.


apefish
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/29/07 08:07 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I have almost proven via this thread that it's impossible to rub one out when thinking about chess.
Pics of curtains sister maybe?


pahala
(member)
06/29/07 08:20 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:


OMFG bughouse is basically a mind-gasm to play .. so incredibly fun. WHAT SITE DO U PLAY IT AT?





FICS is hands down the best site for bughouse. If you want to play bughouse there, you may want to download the Thief interface.

Damn, I should start playing bug again, I think my last games are from somewhere around 2004 since my RD is almost 250 now. I haven't ever been very good at it though, my personal best is 1819 from December '03.


citanul
(SNG Pooh-Bah)
06/29/07 08:29 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Whoa,

lalu, are you my brother's friend from college? For some reason I think so. Maybe I knew this already. If so, hi, for him, I guess? Maybe you guys weren't good friends or something, how would I know? I'm pretty sure you and I have played bughouse or something retarded like that online at some point. (Wash U?)


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/30/07 02:19 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Curtains,

I'm a couple posts shy of reading the whole thing but I don't think this has been asked.

Did you have any rook odds opening preparation prior to this match, maybe just go over some of the old nimzowitsch or tarrasch odds games?




No I didn't prepare. It's irrelevant pretty much, all that matters is how good my opponent is.


s33w33d
(enthusiast)
06/30/07 01:32 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Yes any expert who couldn't crush a GM with rook odds, really must reevaluate their strength. To all who think curtains would still be a favorite vs. a 2150 with pawn odds: my challenge still stands, I don't even want pawn odds, I'll take him on at 3 to 2 time odds, just name your price and time




I've beaten him in blitz before without a pawn

I dunno about 3 to 2 time odds though, I think he's a favorite there.

I also think I'm maybe a bit closer to 2150 than you are though.


chicken10der
(OOT baby hater)
06/30/07 01:39 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

this is the best thing i ever saw

coordi
(Pooh-Bah)
06/30/07 01:41 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Ill play durrrr in chess for money.. I only have like 5 bux a game though. And it has to be 5/0 or less.

carlo
(old hand)
06/30/07 02:27 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

What about the best place to play online (name of site) with other players?




Try Internet Chess Club, program name is "Blitzin".


willie
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/30/07 04:42 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

fun thread, anyone else tempted to start playing chess?




nononononono, too much time to invest to be anywhere near good- i'm old to start now etc etc.

it's more frustrating than poker because there is nothing to blame besides your lack of ability for not succeeding.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/30/07 04:46 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Yes any expert who couldn't crush a GM with rook odds, really must reevaluate their strength. To all who think curtains would still be a favorite vs. a 2150 with pawn odds: my challenge still stands, I don't even want pawn odds, I'll take him on at 3 to 2 time odds, just name your price and time




I've beaten him in blitz before without a pawn

I dunno about 3 to 2 time odds though, I think he's a favorite there.

I also think I'm maybe a bit closer to 2150 than you are though.





Lalu is about 2400-2500 strength in blitz, I'd have no chance in the longrun at 3-2 time odds.


Reef
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
06/30/07 04:48 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Curtains, I have a random question (since you don't seem to mind answering some).

What if you got to be white pieces, but your first two moves had to be

1. e3
2. Ke2???

How highly rated would black need to be in order to be a favorite to win/draw?




to be a fav? prob 2100


mosta
(Pooh-Bah)
06/30/07 05:37 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

As far as pawn odds go, no one has raised how an absent pawn can be an advantage to some extent. I could see missing f7 being pretty bad, because it doesn't open a piece and exposes the king. But wouldn't opening up a rook file be pretty sweet--if you can play a wide open attacking game? What about the others? Taking the d pawn off = instant gambit? (And yes, sure, I don't mean a net advantage, but against a weaker player, maybe even a player not that much weaker, it's not an all-around negative, right?)

Lalu
(stranger)
06/30/07 06:44 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

"Lalu is about 2400-2500 strength in blitz, I'd have no chance in the longrun at 3-2 time odds."


Boo, if curtains himself admits this, I guess people won't be taking any action should such a match ever occur will they? Ohh well, at least you've now publicly admitted this, and now it's saved for posterity to remember

"As far as pawn odds go, no one has raised how an absent pawn can be an advantage to some extent. I could see missing f7 being pretty bad, because it doesn't open a piece and exposes the king. But wouldn't opening up a rook file be pretty sweet--if you can play a wide open attacking game? What about the others? Taking the d pawn off = instant gambit? (And yes, sure, I don't mean a net advantage, but against a weaker player, maybe even a player not that much weaker, it's not an all-around negative, right?)"

Opening the rook file, people think that's an advantage, but it just really is not, and will end up being far more of a liability later. As for d-pawn missing = gambit, gambit implies you have some kind of long term compensation for what you are missing, and you clearly do not in this case so describing it as a gambit doesn't really make sense. Missing the d-pawn though would be far more of a liability than the h-pawn as if you've ever studied chess at all, I'm sure you know how important central control is in the early game, and missing a central pawn puts you at an insane disadvantage in that regard.


Lalu
(stranger)
06/30/07 06:48 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

"nononononono, too much time to invest to be anywhere near good- i'm old to start now etc etc.

it's more frustrating than poker because there is nothing to blame besides your lack of ability for not succeeding."

I agree chess has a much longer learning curve than poker does (at least to become reasonable) so not something you should just randomly get into hoping to become great quickly. I actually feel the opposite about the frustration factor though, I find losing at chess much easier to handle (though of course that has something to do with the fact that chess online is basically only for pride not $) as you know you have control over your destiny in it whereas you can't do anything in poker when the cards happen to not be cooperating.


PLOlover
(Novator KS-172 AAM-L)
06/30/07 08:15 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Opening the rook file, people think that's an advantage, but it just really is not, and will end up being far more of a liability later. As for d-pawn missing = gambit, gambit implies you have some kind of long term compensation for what you are missing, and you clearly do not in this case so describing it as a gambit doesn't really make sense.




well you get faster development -d pawn and -h pawn you get instant kingside attack if opponent castles kingside.

a lot of gambits are for developement, not long term advantages.


Fubster
(member)
06/30/07 08:31 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

What a great thread. The only thing missing is some chess-related leveling going on.

Admo
(2p2's Photoshop Laureate)
07/01/07 12:57 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

What a great thread. The only thing missing is Durrr Martingaling his way back with a $120k Chutes and Ladders prop.




curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/03/07 02:19 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

A Grandmaster friend of mine has arrived in Vegas and is looking for any chess prop bets. Let me know if anyone is interested.

TxRedMan
(BBV's Lyrical Assassin)
07/03/07 02:23 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Would he play a total noob without his queen and a rook?

curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/03/07 02:25 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Would he play a total noob without his queen and a rook?




Doubt it.... But I'm sure he will play most people who have no official rating without a rook and definitely without a knight.


TxRedMan
(BBV's Lyrical Assassin)
07/03/07 02:59 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

tbh, i've probably played 100 games of chess in my life. i can beat someone who doesnt play, that's about it.

but if he'd give up his queen and a rook, i'd give him some action, b/c iirc that's a huge deficit.


chicken10der
(OOT baby hater)
07/03/07 04:14 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

i'll take anyone on at 2:1 if they give me king odds.*

*offer void if 'king odds' turns out to be an actual chess term.


xcrack999
(addict)
07/03/07 08:03 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Is curtains some well-known chess player or something? Curtains, life story please.

J_V
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/03/07 10:39 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:


Also any expert rated player should be a favorite over the World Champion at rook odds IMO.




I'm an expert (barely) and I'd bet on the world champ in a practical 40/2 scenario. I think rook odds would be a little closer than you do, I'd imagine, but the expert would be a favorite.


Reef
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/04/07 12:13 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra



En Passant
(veteran)
07/04/07 12:18 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:


Opening the rook file, people think that's an advantage, but it just really is not, and will end up being far more of a liability later. As for d-pawn missing = gambit, gambit implies you have some kind of long term compensation for what you are missing, and you clearly do not in this case so describing it as a gambit doesn't really make sense. Missing the d-pawn though would be far more of a liability than the h-pawn as if you've ever studied chess at all, I'm sure you know how important central control is in the early game, and missing a central pawn puts you at an insane disadvantage in that regard.




I disagree with this. I don't see how an open rook file would not be an advantage.


citanul
(SNG Pooh-Bah)
07/04/07 12:19 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

JV,

What is a "practical 40/2 scenario?"

Other guy,

Yes, curtains is a decently well known somebody, in the chess world, and like, on the interwebs. I don't know exactly how public his name is, it could very well be posted in this thread already, but a totally amateur detective should be able to figure it out in about 5 minutes.


Reef
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/04/07 12:48 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

I don't see how an open rook file would not be an advantage.




down material
any extra pressure is pretty negligible being on the outside


En Passant
(veteran)
07/04/07 01:30 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

I don't see how an open rook file would not be an advantage.




down material
any extra pressure is pretty negligible being on the outside




What do you mean by "being on the outside?"

My reasoning is you're going to be down a pawn, but your rook is going to be so much more valuable with the open space to operate. The only downside I can think of is exposing the king if you are to castle to the side with the missing pawn. This downside can be avoided pretty esaily however by castling to the other side or just not castling at all.


EmpireMaker2
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/04/07 01:39 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Is curtains some well-known chess player or something? Curtains, life story please.




I wanna hear this 2


pineapple888
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/04/07 01:44 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Is curtains some well-known chess player or something? Curtains, life story please.




I wanna hear this 2




Plays chess. Rises to the rank of International Master.

Switches to poker. Pwns.

The end.


DaddyFatStack
(stranger)
07/04/07 02:22 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

http://www.pokerstarsblog.com/2007_02_01_pokerstarsblog_archive.html

go down to february 9, 2007


MicroBob
(Johnny Chan Spotter)
07/04/07 04:32 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Just getting caught up here.
First off, Nice score Curtains. Congrats.

Have a few thoughts to respond to. I was right in the range some of you have been talking about as far as an appropriate opponent for this prop.


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

curtains,

about what uscf rating would you estimate a player would have to carry to be 50/50 with you playing down a knight? down a rook?




Knight: 1400-1500?
Rook: 1200-1300?

Random guesses could be off easily.








My best USCF rating was 1420-ish. I got to be a bit better when I was playing only ICC and had stopped playing USCF so I estimate that perhaps my true strength might have gotten as high as 1450-1500 without really putting forth that much effort in that time.

I also had played my share of tourneys including some matches against some 2400+ players where I was usually really badly outclassed. So at least I have some clue of what it's like compared with some who have never played in tourneys before.


When I was at my best-ish (estimating I was playing perhaps close to 1500) I think it's correct to say that I would be close to even-ish on this prop against Curtains if given knight-odds.
Perhaps he would be a slight favorite.

So I roughly agree with Curtains' estimate on this one.
This assumes I were given time to try to get my chess-strength close to where it once was. I'm super-duper rusty from pretty much having played zero chess games in the last 3 years or so.

One other factor is that I would be a bit more nervous than him just because he's far more experienced at dealing with pressure situations at the chess-board than I am and I think that could make a significant difference in the end if I were somehow able to keep it close.

At rook odds I certainly think I would be the favorite and also guess that his estimate of 1200-1300 is probably pretty close to correct.




Quote:


durrr isn't 1100-1200. I am very sensitive to people overrating others because I have had a lot of students in my old schools who actually were 1100-1200. At the moment durrrr is probably in the 900-1050 range. He has an edge because he was relatively smart, in that he was taking the game very seriously and being very careful before every move he made. A weakness of most 900-1100 players is that they move too quickly and it causes them to make huge blunders.






I absolutely agree with this.
He appeared to play more in the 1000 range to my eye. Perhaps a little less. He really was kinda lousy.
Very much agree that lots of players over-estimate their rating.

Anyway, Durr really didn't have much idea what he was doing.

To that end, as a 1400 (if I got playing again and shook the rust off somewhat) I feel that even I could beat Durr at his current strength giving him knight-odds although it is probably close-ish because, as Curtains noted, it's not like he was hanging his queen on every move.

In the 1400 range I think it's actually a decent balance going both ways.
I think I might have a chance of hanging with curtains if he gave me a knight if I played one of my better games.
And I think I could take Durr if I gave him a knight.


Quote:

Almost every chessplayer whom has never played in a tournament drastically overrates their ability. If you have never played in a tournament and think that you are about 1600, you are probably about 1200-1300. Basically just subtract 300-400 points from how good you are, and that's how good you actually are.

I know this through tremendous exposure to players who have never played rated games, yet seem to think they know how good they are.

Sorry to be mean, I just find it silly how so many people are talking about how easily they would win the bet, without once giving their actual rating or any credentials of any sort. I'm mainly saying this to defend durrrr.





Once again, I agree with Curtains.
Some who are making various claims in this thread clearly don't have much clue what they are talking about.

I very much believe that I'm about the lowest rated type player who would have a realistic chance of winning this bet.

If you haven't played rated games before I really don't see it happening unless you've been studying the games pretty hard and are pretty darned sure you are likely in the 1600 range (and not just guessing). And by studying hard I mean you've been going over some of Fischer's or Alehkine's games or something.
Not playing against the same chess-program once a week or so.


MicroBob
(Johnny Chan Spotter)
07/04/07 04:45 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

http://www.pokerstarsblog.com/2007_02_01_pokerstarsblog_archive.html

go down to february 9, 2007





didn't know about that. pretty cool.
there was a similar league in the 70's.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/04/07 04:52 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I was waiting for the part that you didn't agree with...

Diamond Lie
(Pooh-Bah)
07/04/07 05:39 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Is curtains some well-known chess player or something? Curtains, life story please.




I wanna hear this 2




The Well: Curtains

also

Curtains vs. entire POG forum chess match


mosta
(Pooh-Bah)
07/04/07 04:52 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Is curtains some well-known chess player or something? Curtains, life story please.




In the same vein--has it ever been made official who gazza is? He's supposed to be a famous GM with several books, right? Nunn? Speelman? Seirawan?


OrangeKing
(addict)
07/04/07 05:23 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I'm sorry that I haven't had a chance to read every post in the thread, but curtains, do you have an estimate of what Durrr's rating is?

I ask because I'm USCF-rated 1744, and out of curiousity, starting playing odds matches against Fritz - and even in blitz, I was able to win more often than not with rook odds. Knight odds, on the other hand, usually got me beat decisively. Which makes me believe that Durrr wasn't even a decent class player, if the games were as decisive as they sound.

I'd have to say that what a few people have said - that some people have no clue exactly how good IMs and GMs really are. I teach chess to kids at a local library, and both they and their parents are shocked to find out that there are people out there (such as curtains!) who I would probably score less than 1% against in tournament play. If I can beat a dozen or more untrained kids in a simul, how could anyone possibly crush me?

Edit: Wow, now I'm trying to play Fritz with rook odds in 3 minute games and getting crushed - I think I only played 2 games last time I tried, I must have gotten pretty damn lucky :P


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/04/07 05:52 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

I'm sorry that I haven't had a chance to read every post in the thread, but curtains, do you have an estimate of what Durrr's rating is?

I ask because I'm USCF-rated 1744, and out of curiousity, starting playing odds matches against Fritz - and even in blitz, I was able to win more often than not with rook odds. Knight odds, on the other hand, usually got me beat decisively. Which makes me believe that Durrr wasn't even a decent class player, if the games were as decisive as they sound.

I'd have to say that what a few people have said - that some people have no clue exactly how good IMs and GMs really are. I teach chess to kids at a local library, and both they and their parents are shocked to find out that there are people out there (such as curtains!) who I would probably score less than 1% against in tournament play. If I can beat a dozen or more untrained kids in a simul, how could anyone possibly crush me?

Edit: Wow, now I'm trying to play Fritz with rook odds in 3 minute games and getting crushed - I think I only played 2 games last time I tried, I must have gotten pretty damn lucky :P





I mentioned his strength as probably around 900-1000.

I would play anyone U1800 who wasnt some kind of blitz specialist in 3 minute chess with rook odds and expect to be a favorite, so its not a big surprise that you are losing to Fritz, since Fritz is much better than me at speed chess.


citanul
(SNG Pooh-Bah)
07/04/07 05:55 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

curtains, really?

i guess yeah, you are really good, but man, rook odds! maybe i need to screw around with fritz or something for a while.

i'm assuming the time control is a big part of the action here. i'm guessing you wouldn't play 30 minute chess with a 1600 and expect to win down a rook?


OrangeKing
(addict)
07/04/07 06:02 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

I mentioned his strength as probably around 900-1000.




Sorry I missed that. Poor guy, he's probably an underdog to me at knight odds, let alone any titled player.

Quote:

I would play anyone U1800 who wasnt some kind of blitz specialist in 3 minute chess with rook odds and expect to be a favorite, so its not a big surprise that you are losing to Fritz, since Fritz is much better than me at speed chess.




I'd expect to lose to Fritz in 3 0 too, which is why I played again - I started thinking about it logically and thought my memories had to be wrong. I'm not only not a blitz specialist, I think I play blitz significantly worse (relative to my rating) than long games, so the 5-1 score Fritz has over me so far this afternoon isn't much of a shock.

Now, on the other hand, if I played fritz with rook odds at 2 hours a side, I'd feel a lot more comfortable - 4 of my 5 losses were due to simple tactical oversights. I could be wrong about that, but I plan on experimenting after I grab some dinner with some 15 minute games, at least.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/04/07 07:01 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

curtains, really?

i guess yeah, you are really good, but man, rook odds! maybe i need to screw around with fritz or something for a while.

i'm assuming the time control is a big part of the action here. i'm guessing you wouldn't play 30 minute chess with a 1600 and expect to win down a rook?





time control is of course the reason, Im very fast. My edge is much bigger the less time both players start with.


mosta
(Pooh-Bah)
07/04/07 07:40 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Is curtains some well-known chess player or something? Curtains, life story please.




In the same vein--has it ever been made official who gazza is? He's supposed to be a famous GM with several books, right? Nunn? Speelman? Seirawan?




No one probably knows what I'm talking about, b/c apparently gazza hasn't posted in over 2 years (used to be a regular, mainly in 6-max limit, which I didn't frequent) (and, boy, time does fly). And b/c in the Curtains v. POG match I skimmed and it was commented that Curtains was supposed to be the only IM/GM in the forums. So I looked in the archives:

"I suppose I count as a pro about half the time. I have been a professional chess player since I was 18 (a long time ago) and also wrote a lot of chess books so that I could stay at home with my family sometimes.
... "
archives

"Maybe I could shed a bit of light on this discussion as I am a GM.
Firstly most of these guys hustling for money are nowhere near GM strength and would probably only be able to give a decent GM a good game when they have less than 2 mins each. At 5 mins each the GM will win easily.
And winning a game in 10 or 20 seconds is not really a question of chess strength but more of physical co-ordination. I used to regularly play games with half a minute to 5 against decent players (up to about 1900 ELO) when I was about 20 but probably couldn't do that anymore (I'm 40 now). ..."

archive

"I'm a 40 year old professional chess player and author (of chess books)originally from London, England, but based in Switzerland for many years so that I can be with my children. "

archive


Shadowlike
(journeyman)
07/04/07 08:01 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

That is clearly Joseph Gallagher, check his Wikipedia entry. I played him once with my chess team in Europe and lost. I also played with curtains a few times, but that was Kungfuchess and I didn't have much of a chance.

mosta
(Pooh-Bah)
07/04/07 11:13 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Cool, thanks a lot. Now that I can put it all together: his Kings Gambit book was my first single opening book, and I really got into it. (Note, I am not and never have been a very accomplished player.)

brianmcnee
(stranger)
07/08/07 11:11 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

This thread is so huge, maybe 2+2 should consider separate chess forum?

TheWorstPlayer
(HoldEmKillah)
07/08/07 11:42 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

This thread is so huge, maybe 2+2 should consider separate $50K+ prop betting forum?




microbet
(The Best Poster Ever)
07/08/07 02:14 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Raptor should post a summary of his recent prop bets and staking deals after one of his horses wins the ME.

GtrHtr
(Trained Killer)
07/08/07 11:46 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Curtains, you know nothing about chess. I would crush you if we made this bet. I play in the park by my house all the time and basically never lose.




Maybe so, but can you beat him at "Guitar Hero?"

Actual footage:

Curtains shredding a guitar while not playing chess




holy [censored]


phifediggy
(enthusiast)
07/12/07 03:04 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

I know him. I haven't played him but my sister beat him




holy crap. when i read this, i thought to myself, this has to be greg and jen shahade. but i've been out of chess for about 8 years so i wasn't sure. and then on one of the later pages i saw the link to the us chess league post on the pokerstars blog and it turns out my guess was right. wow, that is pretty cool stuff.

i remember briefly meeting your sister at some world open back in the day. i might've actually been higher-rated than her at the time, i was one of those child prodigies that got sick of chess. i played on a team with the nakamuras and sam benen at the amateur team east one year and we won something. that was probably the highlight of my chess career.

anyway congrats again curtains. besides you and lederer, i wonder if there are any other chess-poker crossovers that i don't know about.


ifoughtpiranhas
(*)
07/12/07 03:09 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

I know him. I haven't played him but my sister beat him




holy crap. when i read this, i thought to myself, this has to be greg and jen shahade. but i've been out of chess for about 8 years so i wasn't sure. and then on one of the later pages i saw the link to the us chess league post on the pokerstars blog and it turns out my guess was right. wow, that is pretty cool stuff.

i remember briefly meeting your sister at some world open back in the day. i might've actually been higher-rated than her at the time, i was one of those child prodigies that got sick of chess. i played on a team with the nakamuras and sam benen at the amateur team east one year and we won something. that was probably the highlight of my chess career.

anyway congrats again curtains. besides you and lederer, i wonder if there are any other chess-poker crossovers that i don't know about.




the big fat guy with the bowler hat that was at stuey ungars 2nd ME FT win. wasnt he a grand master or something?


Army Eye
(old hand)
07/12/07 03:23 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Look what turned up on the USCF website..

http://beta.uschess.org/frontend/news_7_446.php


citanul
(SNG Pooh-Bah)
07/12/07 03:38 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

From the uschess link:

"It all started a few weeks ago, when a young professional poker playing friend of mine named Danny (The names in this article have been altered) asked me: “How would you do against a beginner at chess if you started without a rook”? I told him to define beginner, and he said that he meant someone that perhaps played a bit for fun, but had never really played seriously. I told him that I would win virtually 100% of the time."

You might want to add in the bolded word there, champ, to make your english make sense.


phifediggy
(enthusiast)
07/12/07 03:46 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Look what turned up on the USCF website..

http://beta.uschess.org/frontend/news_7_446.php




haha awesome article. i'm sure many GM's are on tilt after reading that from not getting the same opportunity. 50k may not seem too outrageous in the poker world but it's huge in chess.


TheWorstPlayer
(HoldEmKillah)
07/12/07 03:52 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

"I absentmindedly neglected to tell Danny that there were probably quite a few other strong players present in Vegas who would be glad to play a chess game for perhaps a bit less money."

"3. Before the match he also took a black pawn and put it on c4, put a white pawn on d4, and asked me if he was allowed to capture it via en passant. I informed him that this would be legal. This was another good omen for my chances."

lolololol


rafiki
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/12/07 04:21 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I skipped a lot of posts, but would durrr do it again double or nothing, and your pro is down a queen ?

Is that still winable ? I'm asking because I really have no idea.


pineapple888
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/12/07 04:27 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

I skipped a lot of posts, but would durrr do it again double or nothing, and your pro is down a queen ?

Is that still winable ? I'm asking because I really have no idea.




Nah, Queen odds are ridiculous. Kasparov (World Champion at the time) once lost to somebody worse than Durrr, giving Queen odds. (And got really upset, he hates to lose at anything.)


rafiki
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/12/07 04:31 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Ya it seemed too ambitious to lose the queen.

What about bishop on one side, rook on the other ?


MicroBob
(Johnny Chan Spotter)
07/12/07 04:41 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I'm going to guess on this one. Not sure what Curtains would think.

Durr is probably getting a little bit better at figuring his way around the chess board.
Curtains' strength is going to remain static.

Curtains would still be a favorite with a rook advantage if they did it again although not as much as he was when they first did it I'm guessing.

Rook + Bishop and I'm guessing Raptor would be a favorite. Something like 65/35 or 70/30 or so would be my guess.
Definitely wouldn't surprise me if Curtains could pull it off down Rook+Bishop. But it would be a real battle for him and pretty much relies on hoping Raptor makes a really terrible mistake or three (which isn't impossible of course). If Raptor goes the whole way without some really bad mistakes in there then he should be able to win just by brute-force.

If Raptor learns to just try to trade-down at every opportunity then that would help his chances a ton too of course.


MicroBob
(Johnny Chan Spotter)
07/12/07 04:42 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Nice article Curtains.

I noticed this part which I thought was kind of funny:

"Before the match he also took a black pawn and put it on c4, put a white pawn on d4, and asked me if he was allowed to capture it via en passant. I informed him that this would be legal. This was another good omen for my chances."


You did explain that en passant isn't a permanent opportunity, right?


chesterboy
(journeyman)
07/12/07 04:46 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

After being involved in poker for 5 years or so, i forget how different chess players look at money. It is pretty funny reading that article. It reminded me of the crazy lengths chess players go to to try and hustle $800 in a tournament, often planning 6 months in advance. LOL I sure am glad I took up poker.

pineapple888
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/12/07 04:51 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Ya it seemed too ambitious to lose the queen.

What about bishop on one side, rook on the other ?




Probably about 50/50 in that case. Durrr was smart enough in the current games not to just hand material over, and that's a very large handicap really, curtains would be reduced to more hustler-type play.


TheWorstPlayer
(HoldEmKillah)
07/12/07 05:02 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

with shorter time, obviously curtains becomes a much bigger favorite. i'm sure he could win with queen odds, given a short enough time limit.

Grisgra
(Calling you down with K-high.)
07/12/07 05:20 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

durrr isn't 1100-1200. I am very sensitive to people overrating others because I have had a lot of students in my old schools who actually were 1100-1200. At the moment durrrr is probably in the 900-1050 range.




A 1000 player playing an IM with rook odds . . . that's just so, so sick. In my pseudo-prime I was an 1800 player, and could probably beat a 1000 player with those odds. I mean, a 1000 player is at the level of maybe not hanging random material, and that's about it.

So wrong. Props to raptor.


MicroBob
(Johnny Chan Spotter)
07/12/07 07:53 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

grisgra - When I was in the 1400ish range and in my prime I think I might be close to the 50/50-ish range against him so I definitely think you would be a favorite as an 1800 player.
I might fall shy of 50/50 but I definitely believe I could win a few games out of 10 against him.
Especially if he isn't able to figure out that trading-down in material is to his advantage and definitely with faster time-controls as I am at least semi-comfortable playing blitz.

And remember, he's not even really a 1000 player. We're just estimating.

If you read Curtains article about it:
- Raptor had to set up an 'en passant' position and ask if it was okay to capture there.
- There was no touch-move. He was allowed to take back any move that he made as long as he had yet to hit the clock.
It sounded like he was able to take advantage of this a couple times and see that a move he was about to make was a blunder and make a correction.

With regular touch-move rules there's a very good chance he would have lost more quickly and decisively.

- He also would not lose if he went over on time. He would just have to pay more per minute in the bet.


So under REAL rules where he wouldn't get that silly 'no touch-move' nonsense and actually would lose if his flag fell I would expect players like you, me and Curtains to have a slightly greater advantage since we are used to playing with these rules and he isn't.

Obviously the flagfall rule becomes even more important if you set it up as a G/10 or less.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/13/07 12:51 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

btw I had to throw in some propoganda because of all the young kids who read the site. Mainly the stuff about how randomly wagering 50k isn't a good idea. Durrrr was a complete gentleman who took a risk that didn't work out, however as his WSOP backing record shows, a lot of his risks do work out. I didn't want to slight him at all, I just knew the USCF, a non profit organization which has a huge scholastic membership, couldn't put this article online if it glorified gambling too much.

curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/13/07 12:53 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I would not take the bet without a queen. I also wouldn't be confident without a rook and minor piece. Maybe I'd win around 50-60% there, I honestly don't know. I just felt that a rook I was a tremendous favorite and of course since 50k isn't chump change to raptor (at least until everyone who he staked in WSOP won 50000 million for him), I didn't want to have him make a bet that I wasn't extremely confident about.

adanthar
(Possibly Too Level Headed)
07/13/07 01:25 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

yeah, I followed the whole thing and it was hilarious. at my prime, I was ranked 1700-odd on yahoo chess (lol) and would probably -as a sheer guess from reading the game summary- only win maybe 3/4 against curtains with rook odds today. durrr had no chance from the start. nice bet raptor.

also, is this the biggest chess game of the year, you think?


Grisgra
(Calling you down with K-high.)
07/13/07 02:32 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

yeah, I followed the whole thing and it was hilarious. at my prime, I was ranked 1700-odd on yahoo chess (lol) and would probably -as a sheer guess from reading the game summary- only win maybe 3/4 against curtains with rook odds today.




lol, I'll take curtains and give you 2:1 that you don't win 3/4 games against him getting rook odds .

I don't think people realize just how strong players of his calibur are. I'm sure that against a 1700'ish player he could clog up the board, win a couple of pawns or the exchange while some minor material is being traded, and then apply enough pressure to at least get a draw 50% of the time, and probably a win 30%+ of the time.

Use of that extra rook often doesn't come into play until the end of the middle game, after some files have been cleared/pieces have been traded -- up until that point you get to bash heads with a 2600 player with a full bag of tricks, and more than capable of mating you while more than half of your material is still on the board.


Lalu
(stranger)
07/13/07 02:49 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

"I don't think people realize just how strong players of his caliber are. I'm sure that against a 1700'ish player he could clog up the board, win a couple of pawns or the exchange while some minor material is being traded, and then apply enough pressure to at least get a draw 50% of the time, and probably a win 30%+ of the time."


I don't think that's true at all, it might not be that hard to put pressure on a weaker player when you are starting on equal footing, but when you are a rook in arrears to begin with, it's not that simple. Applying pressure to win a couple of pawns is certainly not going to overcome the rook you are behind even if it were. Granted I'm not a 1700 player anymore, but I'm quite sure when I was, I would have beaten curtains at his present strength 95%+ of the time with rook odds.


"Use of that extra rook often doesn't come into play until the end of the middle game, after some files have been cleared/pieces have been traded."


That's completely wrong, and I frankly can't comprehend how you could even begin to think that's true even if you're a fair beginner at chess. The concepts of opening, middlegame, and endgame can hardly even be used in such a game, rook odds skew the game far too much to properly define what those really mean in an odds game.


effang
(veteran)
07/13/07 04:26 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Can somebody provide Curtain's rating/site? Would be nice to wiki him and see his history.

curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/13/07 04:41 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

yeah, I followed the whole thing and it was hilarious. at my prime, I was ranked 1700-odd on yahoo chess (lol) and would probably -as a sheer guess from reading the game summary- only win maybe 3/4 against curtains with rook odds today.




lol, I'll take curtains and give you 2:1 that you don't win 3/4 games against him getting rook odds .

I don't think people realize just how strong players of his calibur are. I'm sure that against a 1700'ish player he could clog up the board, win a couple of pawns or the exchange while some minor material is being traded, and then apply enough pressure to at least get a draw 50% of the time, and probably a win 30%+ of the time.

Use of that extra rook often doesn't come into play until the end of the middle game, after some files have been cleared/pieces have been traded -- up until that point you get to bash heads with a 2600 player with a full bag of tricks, and more than capable of mating you while more than half of your material is still on the board.





1700 on yahoo means like anywhere from 800-1300 in real life.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/13/07 04:44 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

"I don't think people realize just how strong players of his caliber are. I'm sure that against a 1700'ish player he could clog up the board, win a couple of pawns or the exchange while some minor material is being traded, and then apply enough pressure to at least get a draw 50% of the time, and probably a win 30%+ of the time."


I don't think that's true at all, it might not be that hard to put pressure on a weaker player when you are starting on equal footing, but when you are a rook in arrears to begin with, it's not that simple. Applying pressure to win a couple of pawns is certainly not going to overcome the rook you are behind even if it were. Granted I'm not a 1700 player anymore, but I'm quite sure when I was, I would have beaten curtains at his present strength 95%+ of the time with rook odds.


"Use of that extra rook often doesn't come into play until the end of the middle game, after some files have been cleared/pieces have been traded."


That's completely wrong, and I frankly can't comprehend how you could even begin to think that's true even if you're a fair beginner at chess. The concepts of opening, middlegame, and endgame can hardly even be used in such a game, rook odds skew the game far too much to properly define what those really mean in an odds game.





Ok but adanthar is using his yahoo rating which is completely meaningless. This is why there are so many people who think they are better than they aer, because they believe these random Internet chess sites to have somewhat accurate ratings. You can easily be 1700 and actually play at about a 1000-1100 level.

Honestly if you've never played a real chess tournament, its 95+% likely that you are gigantic underdog against me if I give you rook odds.


MicroBob
(Johnny Chan Spotter)
07/13/07 05:51 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

curtains - exactly. That's what I immediately thought when I read that he's a 1700 rated player.........on Yahoo.

I haven't played on yahoo before but I would be absolutely stunned if a 1700 on there translated to anything close to 1700 in USCF and you obviously agree with/confirmed my hunch.

As a 1400 in USCF I was able to peak at 1730 or something on ICC. Yeah, I might have had SOME improvement in there.
But mostly it was just ratings-inflation. If I had gone back to a USCF tourney I would be surprised if I was playing much higher than a 1500 level there.

And somehow it's my hunch that a 1700 on ICC would translate to an even higher rating on Yahoo but I'm not positive on that.

It is my hunch that Adanthar would lose to Curtains giving rook odds although I would have to think he would put up a better fight than durr did.


Lalu
(stranger)
07/13/07 12:39 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Well of course if 1700 doesn't equal 1700 USCF then it's a completely different matter. Putting that aside though, my main beef was really with the theory that you could just clog the position up and win your material back slowly and that the extra rook wouldn't come into play until the end of the middlegame, which I think is completely wrong whether your opponent is 1700 or 800.

TheWorstPlayer
(HoldEmKillah)
07/13/07 12:56 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

MORE CHESS PROP BETS PLEASE

I'm not baller, so I can't wager 50K, but I will wager up to 1K if I think the bet is close. Someone suggest something fun chess-related to bet on, please.


StregaChess
(old hand)
07/13/07 01:31 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:



Ok but adanthar is using his yahoo rating which is completely meaningless. This is why there are so many people who think they are better than they aer, because they believe these random Internet chess sites to have somewhat accurate ratings. You can easily be 1700 and actually play at about a 1000-1100 level.

Honestly if you've never played a real chess tournament, its 95+% likely that you are gigantic underdog against me if I give you rook odds.




The only internet indicator of skill might be if you use ICC, and even with that the blitz ratings are all over the map. I've play many title players with blitz ratings of 1200 on ICC. There is web based site called instantchess I got comp'd like 130 games on there for my b-day and my rating is up to 2230 in blitz and god knows I'm not playing that well. To echo back what Curtains is saying if you've never played in a real tourney you have no idea at all how good you are, or are not.


KurtSF
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/13/07 01:52 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Looking at this discussion of player rating in chess I have decided that we NEED a one-dimensional single-number rating system for poker players also.

"Since aba is a 2700-2800, my rating is around 1400, could I beat him if I got one-eyed Jacks wild?"

"No way. But if you got one-eyed Jacks and suicide Kings odds, you might have a chance."


Dire
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/13/07 01:59 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

ICC 5-min seems to have the best correlation to actual skill I've seen. It's a bit less mouse jockeying than 3-min blitz and you can't artifically inflate your rating by cherry picking opponents.

adanthar
(Possibly Too Level Headed)
07/13/07 02:07 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Yeah, I am/was nowhere near an actual 1700, that's why the 'lol' I played like one tournament lifetime, in eighth grade, and went 3-1 for a rating of 1200-something? It doesn't matter, obviously in a real game I'd get crushed every time. I think I'd tend to pull it off with rook odds just because my technical game is much stronger than durrr's and I know the importance of the center in the midgame, but I'd definitely get crushed with knight odds.

StregaChess
(old hand)
07/13/07 02:08 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

ICC 5-min seems to have the best correlation to actual skill I've seen. It's a bit less mouse jockeying than 3-min blitz and you can't artifically inflate your rating by cherry picking opponents.



Yes you might be right, when I said 1200 for titles players I was not thinking clearly, I've only faced them at 1-min. I think 5 min is a bit closer to the real deal.


Grisgra
(Calling you down with K-high.)
07/13/07 06:22 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Granted I'm not a 1700 player anymore, but I'm quite sure when I was, I would have beaten curtains at his present strength 95%+ of the time with rook odds.




Find yourself a legitimate 1700 player and if I can talk curtains into it (or find a player of almost equivalent strength), perhaps we'll make ourselves a bet. Not for 50k (necessarily, depends how stupid you're willing to be), but maybe 5k.

Hell, if you think someone like that would win 95% of the time, you can give ME odds .

What was the time control on the durr/curtains match, anyone know?


"Use of that extra rook often doesn't come into play until the end of the middle game, after some files have been cleared/pieces have been traded."


That's completely wrong, and I frankly can't comprehend how you could even begin to think that's true even if you're a fair beginner at chess. The concepts of opening, middlegame, and endgame can hardly even be used in such a game, rook odds skew the game far too much to properly define what those really mean in an odds game.




citanul
(SNG Pooh-Bah)
07/13/07 06:53 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

put me down for someone who would gladly take even money on a good, in practice 1700 player vs curtains minus a rook

suzzer99
(save the cheerleader. save OOT.)
07/13/07 07:17 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Someone suggest something fun chess-related to bet on, please.




How far can you shove a King up... Oh nevermind.


Lalu
(stranger)
07/13/07 07:21 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Agreed, I would bet $5k on a 1700 player in a heartbeat vs. curtains with rook odds. If you honestly think he's a favorite in that game, I don't think you understand rating strengths (1700 being 1700 USCF not some other unknown rating system).

Gullanian
(train time, imo)
07/13/07 07:37 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

lol variance in chess?

Grisgra
(Calling you down with K-high.)
07/13/07 08:55 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Agreed, I would bet $5k on a 1700 player in a heartbeat vs. curtains with rook odds. If you honestly think he's a favorite in that game, I don't think you understand rating strengths (1700 being 1700 USCF not some other unknown rating system).




I haven't played regular time control chess for a good 15 years, but back when I did a friend of mine who was a chess tutor said he'd put me at about 1800, when I'm not being an idiot. I've also played a bunch of blitz check in the last 15 years and when not being an idiot was at about 1800 (I understand there's some ratings inflation there and so that was probably equivalent to 1600 or so USCF).

So while you guys (at least curtains, Lalu) have a much better sense than I do of what a 1700 USCF could do, I didn't think I was completely talking out of my ass, especially if this game would be a blitz game. I don't think that while I was around my best that I could take someone of curtain's caliber down 75% of the time, as one person put it, or 95% of the time, as I believe Lalu put it.

At blitz, I think the 2600 would be a favorite (if not a huge one), though that might not be true for a longer game. Even with a longer control, though, I really can't see the 1700 player straight-out WINNING 95% of the time, as was claimed.

So (and now, I *am* pulling some #s out of my ass), I'd expect a the score in a 10-game blitz match to be something like 5:5 or 6:4 in favor of the 2600, and the score to be something like 3:7 in favor of the 1700 if there was a longer control.


Lalu
(stranger)
07/13/07 09:24 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

"So (and now, I *am* pulling some #s out of my ass), I'd expect a the score in a 10-game blitz match to be something like 5:5 or 6:4 in favor of the 2600, and the score to be something like 3:7 in favor of the 1700 if there was a longer control."


Of course it depends of the strong player you are speaking of in blitz (some IMs are very good blitz players like curtains, while others are not). I think your estimates are pretty reasonable on the whole though, certainly the score would be closer in blitz than regular chess. My guess of 95% might have been a tad high, but I'd be very surprised if it was lower than 80%. My guess is around 85% in slow chess, 65% in blitz. If you want some other action, I'm still willing to take curtains on in equal material at 3:2 time odds if you or anyone else is game


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/13/07 10:02 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Agreed, I would bet $5k on a 1700 player in a heartbeat vs. curtains with rook odds. If you honestly think he's a favorite in that game, I don't think you understand rating strengths (1700 being 1700 USCF not some other unknown rating system).




I haven't played regular time control chess for a good 15 years, but back when I did a friend of mine who was a chess tutor said he'd put me at about 1800, when I'm not being an idiot. I've also played a bunch of blitz check in the last 15 years and when not being an idiot was at about 1800 (I understand there's some ratings inflation there and so that was probably equivalent to 1600 or so USCF).

So while you guys (at least curtains, Lalu) have a much better sense than I do of what a 1700 USCF could do, I didn't think I was completely talking out of my ass, especially if this game would be a blitz game. I don't think that while I was around my best that I could take someone of curtain's caliber down 75% of the time, as one person put it, or 95% of the time, as I believe Lalu put it.

At blitz, I think the 2600 would be a favorite (if not a huge one), though that might not be true for a longer game. Even with a longer control, though, I really can't see the 1700 player straight-out WINNING 95% of the time, as was claimed.

So (and now, I *am* pulling some #s out of my ass), I'd expect a the score in a 10-game blitz match to be something like 5:5 or 6:4 in favor of the 2600, and the score to be something like 3:7 in favor of the 1700 if there was a longer control.





Grisga, almost everyone who doesn't have a USCF rating or some organized standard rating, and thniks they know their strength because someone told them what it was, is overestimating their strength drastically. I've seen it time and time again, "someone said I'm 1800 strength" usually means they are about 1200-1400 strength.

I've almost never ever in my life seen one case of someone who thinks they know their rating strength, without having gotten one officially, and is not way overestimating it. Almost every single one of them have a reason that may sound very rational as to why they think they are so good, but its almost never true and they will be lucky to be within 200 points of their believed strength.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/13/07 10:04 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

In 3 0 (5 0 is closer) Im a huge favorite against any average 1700 player in blitz with rook odds. They would have absolutely no chance to beat me in the long run, assuming that 1700 is their true strength. Trust me on this one, its not even close. At G/60 I should be a clear underdog.

gumpzilla
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/14/07 01:17 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

In 3 0 (5 0 is closer) Im a huge favorite against any average 1700 player in blitz with rook odds. They would have absolutely no chance to beat me in the long run, assuming that 1700 is their true strength. Trust me on this one, its not even close. At G/60 I should be a clear underdog.




Is this just because you expect to be able to win enough material back to make the endgame too painful for a blitz game? Or just that your tactical vision will be relatively more important at blitz speeds?


MicroBob
(Johnny Chan Spotter)
07/14/07 02:14 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:



Grisga, almost everyone who doesn't have a USCF rating or some organized standard rating, and thniks they know their strength because someone told them what it was, is overestimating their strength drastically. I've seen it time and time again, "someone said I'm 1800 strength" usually means they are about 1200-1400 strength.

I've almost never ever in my life seen one case of someone who thinks they know their rating strength, without having gotten one officially, and is not way overestimating it. Almost every single one of them have a reason that may sound very rational as to why they think they are so good, but its almost never true and they will be lucky to be within 200 points of their believed strength.





Once again repeating my agreement with Curtains.
There are so many unrated players who have some friend or tutor or USCF-rated friend who gives them a really generous estimate of what their rating would be.

My experience in the 3 or 4 different clubs I've played in in different cities regarding unrated players has been very similar.

Very few who say they are 1600-ish strength but don't have their rating yet are actually 1600 strength.


Also, the part about "when I'm not being an idiot" is kind of LOL.
You don't get to just pick and choose from only the times when you are playing well.

If I got to throw out my rated games from when "I was being an idiot" my USCF would zip up from 1400 to 1800 in a heartbeat.

Saying "when I'm not an idiot I'm about 1800 strength" is roughly the same as a baseball player saying, "when I'm not striking-out I'm a .650 hitter."


MicroBob
(Johnny Chan Spotter)
07/14/07 02:21 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

In 3 0 (5 0 is closer) Im a huge favorite against any average 1700 player in blitz with rook odds. They would have absolutely no chance to beat me in the long run, assuming that 1700 is their true strength. Trust me on this one, its not even close. At G/60 I should be a clear underdog.





Curtains - I am guessing your blitz game is insanely good but isn't it also somewhat rusty?
Would have to think that would give a 1700 at least a slight chance at 3 0.

I would put you as a favorite of course.
But against a 1700 who has been playing every day and considers himself pretty good at blitz I would think that your stretch away from full-time chess would make it a bit closer.


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/14/07 03:09 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

In 3 0 (5 0 is closer) Im a huge favorite against any average 1700 player in blitz with rook odds. They would have absolutely no chance to beat me in the long run, assuming that 1700 is their true strength. Trust me on this one, its not even close. At G/60 I should be a clear underdog.





Curtains - I am guessing your blitz game is insanely good but isn't it also somewhat rusty?
Would have to think that would give a 1700 at least a slight chance at 3 0.

I would put you as a favorite of course.
But against a 1700 who has been playing every day and considers himself pretty good at blitz I would think that your stretch away from full-time chess would make it a bit closer.





I'm good and fast at blitz and not really that rusty. Blitz is easy to stay in top form at, because the openings matter a lot less than they do at regular chess. You can get some garbage opening but win anyway through some tricks or by winning on time.

Trust me against a regular 1700 who wasn't a blitz specialist, I would win extremely easily in a long match, most of the time winning on time or by tricking them somehow.


Grisgra
(Calling you down with K-high.)
07/14/07 03:55 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:


Saying "when I'm not an idiot I'm about 1800 strength" is roughly the same as a baseball player saying, "when I'm not striking-out I'm a .650 hitter."




That's not fair, and I think you know it. I have tilted in chess the way I have tilted in poker, and have gotten so frustrated at my play that I'd go off on an idiot-bender and knock my rating down two or three hundred points. I'm sure others have had the same experience. I've also had stretches where I just sit down to play to blow off steam, but I've had others where I take it semi-seriously and have read books, studied games when I was through, ran some stuff through Fritz, etc. When I was taking the game semi-seriously, I was a 1800 player on ICC -- when I was logging in to donk away some time, I was in the 1500-1700 range. (Again, I'm not equating these ratings with USCF ratings.)


The equivalent of "when I'm not striking out I'm a .650 hitter" in poker would be "when I'm hitting the flop I am a fantastic player", and that's not the kind of thing I meant to imply at all.


MicroBob
(Johnny Chan Spotter)
07/14/07 09:06 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I really do think it's fair actually.

Your rating IS your rating.

I'll use another analogy though:

"I have tilted in chess the way I have tilted in poker, and have gotten so frustrated at my play that I'd go off on an idiot-bender and knock my rating down two or three hundred points."

This sounds to me much more like:

"My win-rate in pokertracker is 0.2BB/100, but when I'm actually taking the game seriously and not tilting I'm probably about 3BB/100."


I mean, if you're so bored with chess while you're playing that you are REALLY screwing around and practically trying to do damage to your rating then I guess your statement can make sense.

But it really sounds like you perhaps justify some of your losses by saying, "Well, I was kind of screwing around on that one. I totally would beat that guy if I actually felt like concentrating."

I also suppose that if you are taking the game 100% seriously but are limiting yourself to only a certain opening which you are really unfamiliar with then I guess I can see how your actual rating would not be reflective of your true strength.

But chess has so many 1400-ish players who say, "Yeah, but there were some really bad games in there. I'm really more of a 1700 type player" as well as the 1700-ish player who say they are really about 2000 strength.
And we're talking about ONLY their USCF ratings.

It's like a big joke.
Like all the prisoners in Shawshank who say, "everyone's innocent in here."
Except that it's all the 1400's saying, "but all the 1400's here are actually 1700 strength."

Well, if all these guys REALLY were 1700 strength players then their USCF rating would actually be 1700.


MicroBob
(Johnny Chan Spotter)
07/14/07 09:10 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra


I've actually heard players recap their tourneys by saying something like this:

"My rating is 1400 but I usually play more like a 1600."

"my first opponent was rated 1220. He actually played more like a 1600 though. He beat me. I made a bad mistake."

"my next opponent was rated 1100. He actually played more like a 1400 though. I won that game."

"my next opponent was rated 1300. He played more like a 1500 though. We drew."

"So if you consider how good these players REALLY are I actually lost to a 1600, beat a 1400, and drew a 1500. Yet my rating is going to go down now because every single one of my opponents was under-rated just like me. It sucks!!"

on and on and on.

EVERYONE'S rating somehow is lower than what it should be?
Logically something just doesn't add up in there.


disjunction
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/14/07 09:39 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Some players rarely have the "wrong" result against other players who are rated much higher or lower. Others do.

It has nothing to do with misrepresenting the strength of your opponent.


MicroBob
(Johnny Chan Spotter)
07/14/07 10:01 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

But how many players actually do this the other way?

After playing an 1800 they actually say, "but he was really more like a 1500-type player."

This just doesn't seem to happen nearly as frequently.

Beat an 1800 = "Hey, this guy was a real 1800!"
Lose to a 1400 = "But he plays more like a 1700. That's why he beat me."

Many players over-estimate their own playing strength and do the same for their opponents to justify their belief that they are stronger than their rating indicates.


disjunction
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/14/07 10:11 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

The 1800's I beat were really 1800's, dammit!

(haha no they weren't)

I know what you mean, unlucky opponent matchups in chess are the equivalent of how every poker player has bad luck. I'm just willing to give Grisgra the benefit of the doubt because I used to be a fan of his old poker posts, and judging by those, I'm sure he could attain the rating he quoted if he were consistent about his play.


MicroBob
(Johnny Chan Spotter)
07/14/07 10:37 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I'm a fan too.
And I'm sure he could achieve such a rating also.
But I also think a lot of us COULD attain a higher rating IF we were consistent about our play.

I feel that when I'm really on my game and have been studying more and playing a ton (and productively) I'm in the 1600-1700 range.

Like others, I have had opponents tell me, "Man, you sure are deceivingly strong for your rating" after beating a 1650 or something.
I got my ICC rating up to 1730 or so before similarly donking some of it away playing another long, late-night, blurry-eyed session.

Same goes for my USCF rating. It would be on the way up.
But then I show up for some Saturday tournament at 9am on only 3 hours sleep and lose my first 2 or 3 games partly because I just wasn't rested or focused.

But my rating is my rating. Including all the losses when I was less-interested or goofing-off or really tired.

I too have occasionally been guilty of some of the, "My rating is XXXX but I'm really much stronger than that."

But at least I'm quickly aware of how much I am just sounding like everyone else and how ridiculous the excuses for my lower-than-my-real-strength rating are!!
Thus I conclude I'm not quite as bad as some others about this sort of ego-boost exaggerated-ratings-inflation sort of thing because I only do it part-time!!


Grisgra
(Calling you down with K-high.)
07/14/07 10:41 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

I really do think it's fair actually.

Your rating IS your rating.

I'll use another analogy though:

"I have tilted in chess the way I have tilted in poker, and have gotten so frustrated at my play that I'd go off on an idiot-bender and knock my rating down two or three hundred points."

This sounds to me much more like:

"My win-rate in pokertracker is 0.2BB/100, but when I'm actually taking the game seriously and not tilting I'm probably about 3BB/100."


I mean, if you're so bored with chess while you're playing that you are REALLY screwing around and practically trying to do damage to your rating then I guess your statement can make sense.

But it really sounds like you perhaps justify some of your losses by saying, "Well, I was kind of screwing around on that one. I totally would beat that guy if I actually felt like concentrating."




Well, I guess we can just agree to disagree. Because I haven't played chess at all, semi-seriously or not, for years, I really don't have much of a dog in this fight . I kinda agree with what you're getting at re tilt, but there's still a non-trivial distinction between a chess-for-fun mindset vs chess-for-blood, between sitting down to play casually and actually bringing out the books and reviewing openings, etc.

I don't think it's a cop-out to say that when I was actively studying my game, I was ~1800 (on ICC), but when I wasn't, I was rated lower. I mean, we're talking stretches of weeks or maybe a couple months at a time where by actual rating, across all games, was bouncing around 1800, because I was in donk-free mode -- it wasn't a stream of days of "well, of the seven games I played today, except for that last game and that game an hour ago, I played 1800 chess".

On your last note, in general I have no problem with a statement like "I'm a better poker player than it looks" if it's actually true. Practically speaking it's kinda useless to be a good player who just plays bad most of the time, but there's a qualitative difference between a pro sitting down at a low-limit table and donking money away and a novice who couldn't step up his game if he tried.

Their money, of course, spends the same, which I think is your point .


BPF
(stranger)
07/15/07 03:35 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

If Durr wants to repeat his wagers, and get more odds, let me know

When I was 1700, I *knew* nobody could give me 5-1 time odds. Now that I am 2600, I am not so sure!

Generally, when someone is 700+ points stronger, almost any odds can be given.

BPF


Grisgra
(Calling you down with K-high.)
07/26/07 11:49 AM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

as an example of an amateur getting gang raped by a GM down a rook:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1242893




A relevant quote from the comments section on that page:

"keypusher: <tatarch> A chess club in Manhattan had an odds tournament many years ago, which Andrew Soltis wrote a column about. If the rating difference was over 600 points, the stronger player gave odds of a rook. (There were lesser odds for smaller differentials in playing strength.) The odds-givers lost only one game out of about 40, when what Soltis described as an underrated A-player beat Arthur Bisguier at rook odds. So, I would guess an 1800 player would lose to a GM at rook odds most of the time."


curtains
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/26/07 01:12 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

as an example of an amateur getting gang raped by a GM down a rook:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1242893




A relevant quote from the comments section on that page:

"keypusher: <tatarch> A chess club in Manhattan had an odds tournament many years ago, which Andrew Soltis wrote a column about. If the rating difference was over 600 points, the stronger player gave odds of a rook. (There were lesser odds for smaller differentials in playing strength.) The odds-givers lost only one game out of about 40, when what Soltis described as an underrated A-player beat Arthur Bisguier at rook odds. So, I would guess an 1800 player would lose to a GM at rook odds most of the time."




Id like a little more verified proof before I go off of anything that article says. Who knows, maybe the time control was game 10 or 15 or something like that? Maybe Soltis simply has the facts wrong etc etc


BigBiceps
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
07/26/07 01:36 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

curtains,

you have any interest in playing a $50 freezeout, $10/game of 3 minute replacement chess (ie. similar to shogi with chess pieces, also called monomese or crazyhouse)?


Varkonyi Island
(journeyman)
07/26/07 02:28 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for raptor

Curtains--could you beat Walter Browne if he gave you rook odds? Doubt it...

StregaChess
(old hand)
07/26/07 02:32 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:


Id like a little more verified proof before I go off of anything that article says. Who knows, maybe the time control was game 10 or 15 or something like that? Maybe
Soltis simply has the facts wrong etc etc




Check the notes on this link it provides a whole lot more detail of what you are looking for...


Oct-21-06 keypusher:

Odds Tourney - Odds Rating Diff

On thing to keep in mind that if you go back 30+ years the world was flat, opening knowledge was minimal.
Dinosaurs roamed the earth… this one in particular..
Quote:

They're all weak, all women. They're stupid compared to men. They shouldn't play chess, you know. They're like beginners. They lose every single game against a man. There isn't a woman player in the world I can't give knight-odds to and still beat. – Bobby Fischer




So even if the rook odds story was true at that time, it might not hold true now.


StregaChess
(old hand)
07/26/07 03:10 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Curtains--could you beat Walter Browne if he gave you rook odds? Doubt it...



This is a joke right?
Let’s do the math. Browne’s FIDE rating is 170 points higher than my own. Curtains rating is 176 points higher than mine. Who do you think is the better player? Totally cereal question....


Lalu
(stranger)
07/26/07 04:23 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Curtains--could you beat Walter Browne if he gave you rook odds? Doubt it...


Agreed is that a joke? I'm pretty sure curtains would beat any person on the planet 100/100 times with rook odds (and I'm quite certain I would too, and I'm like 200 points lower than curtains).


Varkonyi Island
(journeyman)
07/26/07 06:43 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

I just feel like Walter Browne might pysch him out with complaints about the lighting, or something similar...

effang
(veteran)
07/26/07 06:53 PM
Re: Durrr in process of losing 60k+ in a chess bet.. good month for ra

Quote:

Quote:

Agreed, I would bet $5k on a 1700 player in a heartbeat vs. curtains with rook odds. If you honestly think he's a favorite in that game, I don't think you understand rating strengths (1700 being 1700 USCF not some other unknown rating system).




I haven't played regular time control chess for a good 15 years, but back when I did a friend of mine who was a chess tutor said he'd put me at about 1800, when I'm not being an idiot. I've also played a bunch of blitz check in the last 15 years and when not being an idiot was at about 1800 (I understand there's some ratings inflation there and so that was probably equivalent to 1600 or so USCF).

So while you guys (at least curtains, Lalu) have a much better sense than I do of what a 1700 USCF could do, I didn't think I was completely talking out of my ass, especially if this game would be a blitz game. I don't think that while I was around my best that I could take someone of curtain's caliber down 75% of the time, as one person put it, or 95% of the time, as I believe Lalu put it.

At blitz, I think the 2600 would be a favorite (if not a huge one), though that might not be true for a longer game. Even with a longer control, though, I really can't see the 1700 player straight-out WINNING 95% of the time, as was claimed.

So (and now, I *am* pulling some #s out of my ass), I'd expect a the score in a 10-game blitz match to be something like 5:5 or 6:4 in favor of the 2600, and the score to be something like 3:7 in favor of the 1700 if there was a longer control.




your friend is probably being too nice to you.



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