just got PAhud...

[MatthewRyan]

Hello everyone,

I just got PAhud yesterday, and I hope someone can help me out with a few questions:

Which stats do you guys find most useful? Id rather only have to look at a couple 4-6, some of those layouts have like 12 stats around the player...

But, more importantly, is there a list of which stats correlate with weak players? What %VPIP or PRF is good/bad etc? i have no idea.

Thanks,
matt

This is for party 3/6 6max

[PartyGirlUK]

best stats to have are:

vpip
pfr
post flop aggresion
wtsd
Total Hands

It is difficult to quantify what is exactly is good/bad. A player could healthily beat that games with a VPIP from 22 to 40. wtsd is typically 38/39. If you find someone significantly higher than this, don't try and bluff/semi bluff them. Quite a few TAGs will be down at 33 wtsd. You might consider semi bluffing them.

[RyanC]

I have CR to see if villain is tricky, cold call to see how fishy, VPIP to also see how fishy, aggro to see if villain is a maniac or the opposite, preflop raise blah , raise flop, fold to flop bet, bet flop, net $ won, went to SD and won at showdown. Sounds like a lot but once oyu get used to it these numbers are invaluable. The went to SD and won at SD has really saved me some money.

[Schwartzy61]

Well I only have 5 stats displayed at all times. VPIP and PFR for preflop and then WtSD and Total Aggression for postflop. I also have the total hands on the player to show how reliable the stats are. I use these for quick decisions in obvious situations.

I then use the pop up feature to list more in depth stats that I would need in more difficult situations...

[excession]

'wtsd is typically 38/39'

UGH ! - if you are a calling station it is - in full ring typical WtSD% is around 20%-25% with anything over 33% looking distinctly station-like.

And in fact TAG's can justify a higher WtSD% as they play better starting hands (though the aggression post-flop means that they tend not to get there if the other guy is awake).

A table and discussion you might find useful is here:

http://www.andymcnish.btinternet.co.uk/newauto.htm

there is also PAHUD use video available that I did a couple of weeks ago - you can search for it on b1t-orrent or PM me for password to access from my homepages..

[12AX7]

So nobody sees this thing as violating the spirit of one player to a seat, by adding an "electronic brain" to your seat?

At the very least the sites should detect this and show me who's using it against me, right? After all, in a casino I could see if someone was sitting there with a calculator, true?

Nobody should have to pay for extra software to have a competitive User Interface.

[APerfect10]

[ QUOTE ]
So nobody sees this thing as violating the spirit of one player to a seat, by adding an "electronic brain" to your seat?

At the very least the sites should detect this and show me who's using it against me, right? After all, in a casino I could see if someone was sitting there with a calculator, true?

Nobody should have to pay for extra software to have a competitive User Interface.

[/ QUOTE ]

boo hoo

I feel more sorry for the poor OP's thread you hijacked. And last I checked PAH didnt have a brain. You might be better of sticking to the casino or going back a few decades...

[poincaraux]

Continuation bet percentage has been hugely useful for me.

[PokerAce]

So do you think David, Mason and Ed should hand out their books for free in the casinos because it gives people an advantage? Should people who have read these books be forced to place a sign on their forehead saying "I know how to play this game well?" Do you consider yourself a cheat when you read and study the strategy explained in those books? What about this forum? Is that cheating too?

The point is that the tools are available for everyone to use. If a poor player wants to improve his game, he will search out and find these tools and use them to his advantage. Those players who enjoy gambling and don't care to be good players won't.

There is no "electronic brain" at work in PokerAce Hud. It simply shows information. It doesn't tell you how to play your hand. The human player behind the screen must know how to play poker and how to use this information.

[12AX7]

1) Poker books can be gotten at any public library.

2) The HUD may not do any "work" for me, but the underlying Poker Tracker sure does. Does it not apply "auto rate rules"?

I'd say that's doing work for me. Especially when a folks write about, "waiting 100 hands to have a good read". Clearly the software is doing calculations.

The electronic brain is the ALU in the CPU of the PC. Thus the brain of the programmers is at the table with me. Whereas with book learning, I at least have to remember and apply it myself. The book doesn't calculate *for* me. It's the difference between personal improvement, and buying power tool.

I'll go on record saying I think that Poker Tracker + HUD of your choice is basically an unfair advantage. Especially when I can't see who's using it. Again, the casino analogy. If someone is taking notes and using a calculator at a table at the Bellagio, I can *see* it and be more careful.

I'm going to stand firm on the theory that it is a form of violating 1 player to a seat. That the real time tracking that Poker Tracker is doing underneath represents a second automated player at the table. (Unless I misunderstand how this thing works. Entirely possible.)

This sort of thing is every bit as bad as big trading companies having Level 2 or higher terminals that the retail customer does not have access to.

It unlevels the playing field.

In short, it's a form of fleecing.

In essence this software is turning a knife fight into a gun fight. Which I think is BS. PITA is perhaps closer to what I mean.

In my opinion nothing about online poker should warp it to far from what the game was originally about.

That having been said, I guess I'm going to have to buy it anyway.

You know what they say about bringing knives to gun fights.

[12AX7]

Geezus, are you that unperceptive?

The ALU in the CPU is the extra "brain", as is the programming behind it.

This sort of thing is every bit as bad as big trading companies having Level 2 or higher terminals that the retail customer does not have access to.

It unlevels the playing field.

In short, it's a form of fleecing.

Boo Hoo yourself.

It's more like, "Wah Wah Wah, I need a CPU to do my tracking for me".

I'd say you're the baby.

P.S. As for casino's, having worked in them, I assure you I have no desire to play live much any more. However, I'd prefer poker stays poker.

Interesting that everyone in here would attack the idea of a bot, but not software that is clearly a step in that direction. Odd what passes for perception.

[12AX7]

By the way PokerAce, I made my living at mainframes for about 2 decades. Don't believe for a moment I'm saying "programmers should not get paid".

I just think that if HUDs are to be an accepted part of the game. Party et. al. should buy it from you and display the stats for everyone, on everyone.

Simple, level playing field.

What's going on now is that early adopters have this advantage. Which in business is probably an OK concept. Matter of fact it always has been accepted. And of course, even in golf, early adopters of perimeter weighted clubs probably had some advantage.

But the application of automated logic to poker, IMHO, changes the nature of the game to far. As stated elsewhere, it's the equivalent of some traders having Bloomberg terminals, and other's not.

And I'll be the first say openly, I also think Wall Street has been fleecing it's own customer's since the beginning.

Just a side thought. If Wall Street firms never got a dime until thier clients earned a profit, how might things be better?

It's the old question, "Yes, but where are the customer's yachts?"

Nothing new under the sun.

People trying to take a bite out of each other's financial 'sses.

Sadly we've progressed little.

No doubt I'll suffer some flames and heat for these views.

But then, no one can say I'm not thinking for myself, or that I lack the grit to state my conclusions.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
So nobody sees this thing as violating the spirit of one player to a seat, by adding an "electronic brain" to your seat?

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to think there is some rule about this for online poker.

Until poker sites can keep someone from getting advice from a player standing behind them at home or asking someone over AIM, I have no problem with this sort of data analysis.

[SirShortStack]

I use Poker Tracker, Poker Ace Hud and Partymine. Anyone who says that these tools don't give me an advantage over those who don't use these tools is either dishonest or stupid.

I paid "MONEY" for these tools because my research showed that they would give me information that I would not have without them. There is no way I would be as effective as I am multitabliing without these tools. How effective I am is irrevalent, I would be much worse without these tools,and so would "MOST" of you!

I stopped playing on sites that provided rakeback and started playing on Party without rakeback because these tools made it easy for me to find players who consistently make mistakes and Party has more of these mistake making players than any other site.

These tools also make it easier for me to determine what mistakes these uninformed players make and how to adapt my play to take advantage of their mistakes. I played against a guy who I had about 1000 hands on. His PFR was 1%. Now what rage of hands could that possibly be. When he did not raise, even an average player like me knew what he did not have. Without these tools how long would it have taken me to figure out that he only raised 1% of his hands. Are you really going to continue to insist that I did not have an advantage? Can you truely say Partymine did not give me an advantage? 1000 hands of info the first time I played him. Do you really want me to believe Poker Tracker did not give me an advantage? I knew he only raised 1% of his hands the first time I played against him. Come on, please don't insult the little intelligence I have.

With the help of these tools I can go online and be very confident that I am going to win money if I play enough hands. I would not have that same confindence if I was playing live, which is why I don't play live lol.

I realize that some of you understand the concepts and principles of this game well enough that you would win with or without these tools, "AS LONG" as you played a single table against people like "ME". Without these tools you would have to playe qiute a few hands to find weak players. Then you would have to play quite a few hands to determine just which mistakes these different players make. Some of us weak players would bust out before you figured out how to catch us, skin us and take our chips. I know this does not apply to those of you, who like T.J. can read the whole table in 15 minutes.

Lets be real and finally admit that we "PAID" for these tools because they do give us an advantage.

Also it is time to give up on the book reading comparison. That is like comparing apples to grapes.

Please forgive any mispelling, I am not spell checking this document.

Please forgive me for adding to a highjacked thread. Did not see anywhere eles to add this.

[excession]

PAHUD operates on two levels - when using mined data it does give close to an unfair advantage; but when using data collected during your own play all it really offers you is data that you could have put in notes anyway - it has no brain - it just tells you that some guy is seeing 4/10 flops - what you do with that info. is up to you..

[APerfect10]

[ QUOTE ]
Geezus, are you that unperceptive?

The ALU in the CPU is the extra "brain", as is the programming behind it.

This sort of thing is every bit as bad as big trading companies having Level 2 or higher terminals that the retail customer does not have access to.

It unlevels the playing field.

In short, it's a form of fleecing.

Boo Hoo yourself.

It's more like, "Wah Wah Wah, I need a CPU to do my tracking for me".

I'd say you're the baby.

P.S. As for casino's, having worked in them, I assure you I have no desire to play live much any more. However, I'd prefer poker stays poker.

Interesting that everyone in here would attack the idea of a bot, but not software that is clearly a step in that direction. Odd what passes for perception.


[/ QUOTE ]

First and foremost, you are the only one complaining/crying.

Second, anyone who claims to have computer knowledge, such as yourself, knows that an ALU simply performs logical statements and is far from a brain. A brain makes decisions with intelligence. A CPU does not. I suggest reading up on AI so that you know the difference.

Comparing PAH which only provides a wealth of information to the user to a level 2 terminal is bogus. A level 2 terminal provides real-time trading figures EARLIER than most of the public can obtain that information. Of course this is advantagous. If you want to compare PAH to the financial market, a more accurate comparison would be having access to a program such as Reuters that provides a wealth of information to the decision maker whereas most of the public only can retrieve basic trading information.

PT collects game stats, PAH displays them. It is up to the user to make the correct decisions. I see you repeated the same mantra that everyone on your side of the argument repeats. You need PAH to be successful. Obviously, anyone who recites that has never used a program such as PAH successfully. More information equals more variables equals more decisions. Give a fish the same information and they would be overwhelmed and not have a clue what to do with it. I'd argue it takes MORE skill to successfully use a program such as PAH. Until you have done so, you can not refute that. To simply stats the mantra over and over agains shows your ignorance to the situation.

I'm a successful high NL player. I do not need PAH; although I find the games more enjoyable using it. Once you reach my level, then you can start mocking/critiquing my play. Until then, keep your trash talk down in the micro/low limits. My guess is you are having trouble beating the game and looking for excuses.

[APerfect10]

SirShortStack, of course having PT, PAH and the likes are advantageous. If it wasnt there would be no point in having them. Nobody is making that claim. Is it an unfair advantage is the question. I do not think it is.

As stated above, I believe being able to use PAH successfully takes more skill than not using PAH. All the program does is list previous stats on the player. It is your job to analyze those stats, make your reads and ultimately make the correct decision. Your 1% PFR example is the most simplistic form and takes little analytical skill to use. Regardless, even a fish recognizes when a player is only raising AA/KK.

[SirShortStack]

APerfect10

Unless we can agree on what is an "UNFAIR ADVANTAGE" I guess there is really no conclusion to this discussion.

To your point that it takes more skill to use these tools, (PAH specificly in your example) than to not use them, I would have to disagree. I was a break even player before I started using these tools. Now I am a consistent winning player. Cashing out every month and improving my families standard of living.

I agree it is possible that everything I was studying just happened to click at the same time I started using these tools. That using these tools helped me to understand and all of a sudden I just got it, but I doubt it.

As for my simplistic example, I would say that these tool have made that possible for "MOST" situations in online poker. Of course you will be able to come up with an example to show how difficult it would be for unlearned players to come to the correct conclusion, but most situations would be closer to my example than yours. I would also say that analyzing the information is not as difficult a task to learn as your post "SEEMS" to indicate. Go to the three forums that I found, read the post and ask questions and you will be able to analyze the information well enough to be a consistent winner (without fully understanding the concepts and principles of the game). Of course the better you understand the game, the better you will be able to use the information. This point does not take away from the fact that an average player like myself has a great advantage over players that don't have or use these tools.

Again I hold fast to the view point that if you and others watched me play without these tools you would not consider me a great player, just average. With these tools my decision making is great. To be fair I have to admit that these tools are helping me to understand concepts much better and hopefully my game is improving, but I was winning before that happened. I play No Limit at the $100 and $200 dollar tables on Party.

Like I said earlier, without an agreeable definition on what is an unfair advantage there can be no conclusion to this discussion, as a result I am out of this discussion until someone provides that definition. Of course everyone reading this thread will not agree with that definition, which will lead to the highjacking of another thread.

I also want to thank you for your contribution to two of three forums I visit. Your post have been very valuable to me. Although I disagree with you on this topic, I do respect you and enjoy reading your input.

[SamIAm]

What do you think quotation marks mean? You're just using them for emphasis, right? When you say you "paid" for pokertracker using "money", I assumed you were saying you stole it and cracked the registration code. Then I saw you kept using quotes in random places, so changed my mind. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
-Sam

[excession]

'I agree it is possible that everything I was studying just happened to click at the same time I started using these tools. That using these tools helped me to understand and all of a sudden I just got it, but I doubt it.'

Actuakllyt that is quite likely - once you see the ebb and flow of a table and how money moves from player type to player type and run queries on hh from your own play to see how profitable or not stuff like CB's, cold calls from the blinds, raises in LP with KQo, big bluffs on the end, betting draws half/full and over pot vs check-calling/folding are you do become a much better player.

After a time PAHUD can inhibit your growth if you don;t bother to make notes..

[SirShortStack]

Sam I am gald you figured it out. Would hate to think of your poker playing ability if your resoning ability actually lead you to that conclusion!

Glad you are adding such "meaningful" discussion to a topic as usual.

I guess I should pay money to purchase Thread Tracker and English Ace Hud so I want be at a disadvantage to your knowledge of the proper use of quotation marks!

[APerfect10]

You seem to think that any advantages is an unfair one. Is it unfair to read these poker sites which help improve your game? It is certainly advantageous. I know you've already stated that reading books does not compare but I fail to see your reasoning. They both are tools that cost money and help you improve. Neither make decisions for you, they simply present you with the knowledge to help your decision making process. So what constitutes unfair? Unfair to me is blatant cheating such as collusion as well as bots which make decisions for you.

You do not think PAH is difficult to master and that anyone can do it. Yet you needed the help of several sites? Sounds rather contradictory to me. Does using PAH make you a winning player? No. Does using PAH help your growth to become a winning player? Yes. As excession stated, by using PAH you gain a clearer picture of how the poker game operates. You understand how different player types respond to different situations.

[SirShortStack]

I did not say any advantage is a unfair one. I do not think any advantage is an unfair one.

I did not say PAH was not difficult to master. I said it was not as difficult to learn to use it to analyze the information as your post SEEM (can't use the quotes any more) to indicate. That is a little different from mastering.

[APerfect10]

So what constitutes PAH as an unfair advantage? You seem to keep arguing that PAH is an advantage; which I think we all agree but you never touch on what makes it unfair. Please explain. Its unfair because you were previously a break even player and are now winning? I dont understand where you are headed...

[SirShortStack]

APerfect10

As i previously stated, without an acceptable definition of *UNFAIR ADVANTAGE* (Sam is that better, just kidding, don't want to start a war)there can be no conclusion to this discussion. If I use your definition of course there would be no unfair advantage. I am not willing to put forth a definition at this time and as a result I have no more to say on the *UNFAIR* part of this discussion.

Another thing I notice is that you seem to want to focus your argument on PAH. My inital comment, and all comments since were in relation to *THREE* programs used *TOGETHER*. Partymine, Poker Tracker and Poker Ace Hud. We can not have an intelligent discussion if we are not talking about the same thing.

These tools have helped me very, very much. Without them I would still be a break even player or maybe I would have improved a little and been a consistent small winner by now, only God knows. These tools have without a doubt have given me an advantage over those who don't use them and as you say, we all agree on that part.

I would like to clear up one thing though. I did not join three forums to learn how to use these tools. I lived overseas while in the military. When I came back to the United States I saw poker being played on the Travel channel. The guy who finished last (I did not know that hundrens of other players had been eliminated and this was the final table) won over $100,000.00. At that point I knew it was my duty to learn how to play poker.

I did a search on google and found out about different forums. Like most I started out playing Limit. Was lied too and told you could protect your hand in No Limit and keep people from sucking out on you. In March 2005 I searched for sites that specialized in No Limit. Settled on Flop, Turn, River / Bet the Pot and Two plus Two. I started reading these forums for the purpose of learning how to play the game of No Limit Holdem.

These forums exposed me to these tools. These forums and the forums sponsered by the creators of these tools taught me how to use the tools.

APerfect10, I have read a lot of your post lately. It is very hard for me to believe that you can not see a difference between the following two situations. Situation one I read Super System, Pot Limit and No Limit Poker, Improrve Your Poker, Geting Started in Holdem, Harrington on Holdem vol one, The Therory of Poker and the three forums mentioned, then go online and multitable the $25 tables on Party Poker based strictly on what I learned from those books and those forums.

Situation two. I read the same books and forums, and use the previously mentioned tools to help me use what I learned from reading those books to multitable the $25 tables on Party Poker.

I know you can clearly see the difference and realize that a person in situation two has a very big advantage over the person in situation one. The only thing left to discuss is does this advantage equal being unfair.

I have enjoyed this discussion up to a point but believe it is going nowhere and is fast becoming a waste of time. Unless some new ideal or concept is mentioned I see no need for me to continue in this discussion except to clearify a piont I have made that is being mis-represented.

Again I apologize to the original poster for participating in highjacking your thread, please forgive me.