Neitzche is dead [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

Lestat

04-22-2006, 10:17 PM

I think God cares about us and wants us to have a personal relationship with him because we are better off if we do that and the world is better for it. 

I've stopped asking this question, because I've yet to hear what is even close to a reasonable answer. But since you are a very logical thinker I'd like to give it one more shot.

If it's so important to God that we believe in him, why has He gone thousands of years without making Himself known? But wait, there's more...

Not only have the majority of people who have ever lived on this planet not seen or heard from Him, but He has actually made it logically more difficult to believe than disbelieve. He requires people (particularily those who have grown up in the modern world), who have lived their whole lives under one set of phyical laws (that those of the modern world have a very good understanding of), to dismiss their entire reality and believe a completely different set of laws that were supposed to have occured thousands of years ago.

Now honestly... Do you really think that is the work of a supreme being who places absolute importance on whether or not people believe in Him? Wouldn't you call anyone else a trickster?

I know.. You have few arguments justifying your position. But you've taken a position! You HAVE to justify it. If not to us, then to yourself. I'm really interested in reading it.

Lestat

04-22-2006, 10:25 PM

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I think not believing and worshipping a different God are two different things.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you agree the commandments can be broken out of ignorance? That is, you can worship Allah or a totem pole as long as you live a saintly life, right? Which leads me back to the thing I cannot reconcile no matter how hard I try:

Why wouldn't a loving God make it clear? Why would He deceive so many unless it were something else which carried far more importance than worship?

bunny

04-22-2006, 10:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If it's so important to God that we believe in him, why has He gone thousands of years without making Himself known?

[/ QUOTE ]
I know that this answer is unsatisfactory to an unbeliever, but that doesnt mean it isnt the answer. I dont think it is easy to understand what God is and what he wants - certainly my experience is very sparse on details. That means I am left with a belief in God but not any easy way to answer questions like this. When I consider it, questions like this arent a reason to doubt (as they dont undermine the reasons behind my belief) they are just a mystery. Some possible answers that I'm sure you've been given before would be:
1) The experience of finding God is of greater value because it is harder. If we could look up and see a big bearded man in the clouds looking down tsking when we did bad things, we would all believe but it wouldnt be worth as much.
2) God has made it easy to believe, you just have to look "spiritually" a way of thinking which our modern lifestyle discounts but which is valid in reality.
3) Faith without proof is important to God for some reason....

I dont present any of these as "the right answer" because I dont know. The fact is, there easily could be an answer and (although I accept it is frustrating to an atheist like you) this is good enough for me. If I had no direct experience of God I would regard this as further evidence for my atheism, I guess but I dont think it is one of the points atheists and theists can meaningfully discuss - a theist has lots of different answers that boil down to "just because".

[ QUOTE ]
Not only have the majority of people who have ever lived on this planet not seen or heard from Him, but He has actually made it logically more difficult to believe than disbelieve. He requires people (particularily those who have grown up in the modern world), who have lived their whole lives under one set of phyical laws (that those of the modern world have a very good understanding of), to dismiss their entire reality and believe a completely different set of laws that were supposed to have occured thousands of years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it is clear that I dont think belief in God requires you suspend you belief in physical laws. I think you can believe both (if you have an allegorical rather than literal view of the stories in the Bible) so I dont really see this as a problem. I guess I agree that literalists have something to answer here but I dont think my position is damaged by this supposed contradiction in general. There is only one case in which I think I have a problem (and which I am grappling with at the moment) and that is the case of Jesus and all his miracles, most especially the resurrection - I dont think it is possible to be a christian and not believe in this. This is a new area of thought for me though, so I wont be able to say anything intelligent about it for quite some time I expect.

[ QUOTE ]
Now honestly... Do you really think that is the work of a supreme being who places absolute importance on whether or not people believe in Him? Wouldn't you call anyone else a trickster?

I know.. You have few arguments justifying your position. But you've taken a position! You HAVE to justify it. If not to us, then to yourself. I'm really interested in reading it.

[/ QUOTE ]
The only argument I have is my experience - it is weak justification but justification nonetheless. Questions such as the ones you raise provide me a method of testing that my beliefs are internally consistent (which I think is necessary)

allisfulloflove

04-23-2006, 12:26 AM

God is not a separate, conscious ego, like the majority of Christians believe. It is not a "he." The 10 commandments were made up by humans, and the Bible is no more divine than a Kerouac novel. "God" is nature, the universe, and what everything is made of. "God" is "now." This moment, this experience. I am God.

Sharkey

04-23-2006, 12:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
God is not a separate, conscious ego, like the majority of Christians believe. It is not a "he." The 10 commandments were made up by humans, and the Bible is no more divine than a Kerouac novel. "God" is nature, and what everything is made of. "God" is "now." Every moment, every experience. I am God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you still consider yourself God when you’re paying bills every month?

Lestat

04-23-2006, 12:38 AM

I completely understand what you mean and you know what's funny or what really makes me weird?

I'd be so much more inclined to believe if it weren't for the bible and all of man's talk about religion and God. And if God really does exist, I think man has done a great disservice to either God or other men.

Basically what you're saying is that you have felt God in some way and this is the source for your belief. And even while you maintain that certain reasons aren't logical in a general sense, to you they are.

Hey, I'm not Dr. Spock (or is it Mr. Spock?). I'm not so logical as to deny strong feelings or senses. If I were alone in a room and felt a hand on my shoulder and this feeling persisted, I would eventually believe there was a hand on my shoulder. So in this regard, I understand where you're coming from. Look...

While I think the odds are incredibly long for any one religion to be correct, I think the odds that God exists, are considerably more favorable. The fact is, we don't know what this universe is, or what our existence is all about. We're not even close to a reasonable explanation. So why not God as opposed to different dimensions colliding, or a 5th dimensional kid playing with his chemistry set, etc.? But my point is, that right now there are LESS explanations for this (our reality), than there are for differing religions, rules to live by, etc. So it makes sense to me that the odds for God or no God, should be put much lower than which religion to believe in. Does that make any sense? I'm probably not eloquent enough to explain what I really mean with this.

So in the end, it's man's musing over religion. The texts, the miracles, the rules to live by, the supposed only way to get into heaven, that makes me a non-believer, because I know the odds are long that any of it is correct. Much longer than of God Himself.

allisfulloflove

04-23-2006, 12:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
God is not a separate, conscious ego, like the majority of Christians believe. It is not a "he." The 10 commandments were made up by humans, and the Bible is no more divine than a Kerouac novel. "God" is nature, the universe, and what everything is made of. "God" is "now." Every moment, every experience. I am God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you still consider yourself God when you’re paying bills every month?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't pay bills, but you're still God when you pay bills every month.

WaterlooPoker

04-23-2006, 12:48 AM

We actually have a fairly decent idea as to the composition of our universe.

Lestat

04-23-2006, 12:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
God is not a separate, conscious ego, like the majority of Christians believe. It is not a "he." The 10 commandments were made up by humans, and the Bible is no more divine than a Kerouac novel. "God" is nature, the universe, and what everything is made of. "God" is "now." Every moment, every experience. I am God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you still consider yourself God when you’re paying bills every month?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't pay bills, but you're still God when you pay bills every month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Screw all this existential stuff. I want to know how to get by without paying bills!

Lestat

04-23-2006, 12:58 AM

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We actually have a fairly decent idea as to the composition of our universe.

[/ QUOTE ]

But absolutely no concrete ideas on what was before it, what started it, or what will come after it. Ergo, no decent explanation for what it all means.

Sharkey

04-23-2006, 12:59 AM

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I don't pay bills, but you're still God when you pay bills every month.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assure you I am not God. (Very funny.)

allisfulloflove

04-23-2006, 01:02 AM

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I assure you I am not God. (Very funny.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually you're God pretending that you're not (seriously)!

Sharkey

04-23-2006, 01:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I assure you I am not God. (Very funny.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually you're God pretending that you're not (seriously)!

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you consider proof of that assertion, or is it an article of your faith?

allisfulloflove

04-23-2006, 01:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I assure you I am not God. (Very funny.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually you're God pretending that you're not (seriously)!

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you consider proof of that assertion, or is it an article of your faith?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. God is everything, therefore everything is god.
2. You are something (or nothing (which is something)), therefore you are god.
3. Nothing matters anyway so stop taking everything (including the idea of "god") so seriously.

bunny

04-23-2006, 01:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. God is everything, therefore everything is god.
2. You are something (or nothing (which is something)), therefore you are god.
3. Nothing matters anyway so stop taking everything (including the idea of "god") so seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is the first argument I have ever encountered where I disagree with all of the premises.

bunny

04-23-2006, 03:25 AM

I agree with you. In fact I think the plethora of religions is a good argument against spiritual reality. It is certainly something we religious folk have to address.

My answer is that there is a true God revealing himself to various prophets throughout the years but being human they do not interpret it particularly accurately - then it is compounded by corrupt people or people who are just plain wrong in positions of power, this seems to explain why we find so many different religious views (even if God really exists).

I hasten to repeat that I think this argument has no persuasive power - it is just what I think is likely to have happened. A fairly poorly justified opinion, nothing more.

AceofSpades

04-23-2006, 03:32 AM

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I think not believing and worshipping a different God are two different things.

[/ QUOTE ]

If God exists then it must be said that he is not very good at communicating who, what, and how God is, and what God requires. The myriad of religions and theological differences in religion show that to be true.

So is it really possible to intentionally worship another God? Would not anybody worshipping God simply believe they are worshipping the only God, and this simply be a failure of God to communicate who God is?

MidGe

04-23-2006, 03:36 AM

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Actually you're God pretending that you're not (seriously)!

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, I see, a delusional god, so to speak.

bunny

04-23-2006, 05:13 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
I think not believing and worshipping a different God are two different things.

[/ QUOTE ]

If God exists then it must be said that he is not very good at communicating who, what, and how God is, and what God requires. The myriad of religions and theological differences in religion show that to be true.

So is it really possible to intentionally worship another God? Would not anybody worshipping God simply believe they are worshipping the only God, and this simply be a failure of God to communicate who God is?

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps not. Although it seems that "back then" people did have a larger number of Gods to choose from. I understand this requirement of the theistic conception of God being something that distinguishes it from other religions. That is, polytheistis would presumably say the Christian God is one of many you may choose to worship. This commandment seems to be a statement that this is wrong and that if you worship a different God but believe that the Theistic God exists then you are doing something wrong.

This is my perspective, anyhow - I dont really understand how believing in God can be a moral requirement. I think it is more "Give credit where credit is due".

NobodysFreak

04-23-2006, 02:59 PM

When I opened this thread I thought it was going to be an actual discussion of Nietzsche's philosophy. Boy was I disappointed when I found this utterly redundant thread.

Lestat

04-23-2006, 04:34 PM

My answer is that there is a true God revealing himself to various prophets 

So you feel he revealed Himself to just a handful of these prophets, because of the reduced significance a bearded figure tsking in the clouds would have, right?

But why wouldn't He reveal himself at least to each generation? Or every other generation? Or each new pope, etc?

I realize you have no answer for this, but I can't even begin to think of any reason and this is why I can't believe. It makes absolutely no sense to me why God would reveal Himself thousands of years ago to just a handful of prophets, only to disappear for every other person and generation who has ever lived since on the planet.

So even if you are correct and He doesn't want to make it too easy for us to believe or behave properly, why not at least clue in each new pope or some other prophet for each generation the way He did for Adam and a few others? Can you find any way to steer me past that? This is completely unbelievable to me.

surftheiop

04-23-2006, 04:58 PM

"I am God."
Damn i think your the first person both the atheists and the theists wanna run out of town.

AceofSpades

04-23-2006, 05:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I assure you I am not God. (Very funny.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually you're God pretending that you're not (seriously)!

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you consider proof of that assertion, or is it an article of your faith?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. God is everything, therefore everything is god.
2. You are something (or nothing (which is something)), therefore you are god.
3. Nothing matters anyway so stop taking everything (including the idea of "god") so seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being God sucks without the special powers. Are you saying you have them?

allisfulloflove

04-23-2006, 05:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"I am God."
Damn i think your the first person both the atheists and the theists wanna run out of town.

[/ QUOTE ]

Christians are ridiculous for thinking that just because Jesus realized he was God, that means that no one else is God. But actually everyone is God.

bunny

04-23-2006, 06:24 PM

Well a theological answer would be that the prophets were "paving the way" for Jesus. Once he had come and done his thing there wasnt any need for more prophets.

Perhaps a more satisfying answer to you would be that God does still speak to people and inspire people to produce great things. In the old days this inspiration resulted in them writing prophetic, holy books - that was a factor of their culture and how they responded to divine inspiration. Nowadays perhaps this is channelled into other areas (as culturally - someone now who claims to be a divine prophet is almost universally seen as a weirdo). I'm sure you have met one or two of those people with an extraordinary ability to just keep giving and pouring their energy into creating something lasting and worthwhile. I think you have to be a particularly devout Christian to see this as God's working in the world and making himself known (and the argument, such as it is, is clealy a circular one). Nonetheless, I dont think it is true that God is completely inaccessible - just inaccessible to the scientific method of enquiry.

spaceman Bryce

04-23-2006, 08:48 PM

... "hitherto we have been permitted to seek beauty only in the morally good - a fact which sufficiently accounts for our having found so little of it and having had to seek about for imaginary beauties without backbone! - As surely as the wicked enjoy a hundred kinds of happiness of which the virtuous have no inkling, so too they possess a hundred kinds of beauty; and many of them have not yet been discovered."- IMCO(in my crappy opinion) this is the best Neitzche quote ever

chezlaw

04-23-2006, 09:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
... "hitherto we have been permitted to seek beauty only in the morally good - a fact which sufficiently accounts for our having found so little of it and having had to seek about for imaginary beauties without backbone! - As surely as the wicked enjoy a hundred kinds of happiness of which the virtuous have no inkling, so too they possess a hundred kinds of beauty; and many of them have not yet been discovered."- IMCO(in my crappy opinion) this is the best Neitzche quote ever

[/ QUOTE ]
can you give an example of the kind of happiness the wicked enjoy of which the virtuous have no inkling?

chez

Hoi Polloi

04-23-2006, 10:28 PM

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Neitzche is dead
- God

Why does God (the God described in the bible) demand we believe in him? Why does he care?

[/ QUOTE ]

According to Nietzsche God died of his pity for mankind. Posts like this contributed.

Hoi Polloi

04-23-2006, 10:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We actually have a fairly decent idea as to the composition of our universe.

[/ QUOTE ]

But absolutely no concrete ideas on what was before it, what started it, or what will come after it. Ergo, no decent explanation for what it all means.

[/ QUOTE ]

IS there a requirement that it should mean something?

Aytumious

04-23-2006, 10:45 PM

Lestat

04-23-2006, 10:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We actually have a fairly decent idea as to the composition of our universe.

[/ QUOTE ]

But absolutely no concrete ideas on what was before it, what started it, or what will come after it. Ergo, no decent explanation for what it all means.

[/ QUOTE ]

IS there a requirement that it should mean something?

[/ QUOTE ]

When I say, "what does it mean?" I'm mean it like, "what does low atmospheric pressure mean".

I think there should be a requirement for what was before the big bang and/or how did the atoms which formed the big come into existence, and how did we come into existence from that. If you want to take that as existential fluff, so be it. But it is our very nature to try and want to understand these things and until we do, we cannot pretend we are 100% certain with respect to God or anything else.

Lestat

04-23-2006, 10:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We actually have a fairly decent idea as to the composition of our universe.

[/ QUOTE ]

But absolutely no concrete ideas on what was before it, what started it, or what will come after it. Ergo, no decent explanation for what it all means.

[/ QUOTE ]

IS there a requirement that it should mean something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not yet that is the main thing the overwhelming majority of humans cannot come to terms with.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I say, "what does it mean?" I'm mean it like, "what does low atmospheric pressure mean".

I think there should be a requirement for what was before the big bang and/or how did the atoms which formed the big come into existence, and how did we come into existence from that. If you want to take that as existential fluff, so be it. But it is our very nature to try and want to understand these things and until we do, we cannot pretend we are 100% certain with respect to God or anything else.

Aytumious

04-23-2006, 11:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We actually have a fairly decent idea as to the composition of our universe.

[/ QUOTE ]

But absolutely no concrete ideas on what was before it, what started it, or what will come after it. Ergo, no decent explanation for what it all means.

[/ QUOTE ]

IS there a requirement that it should mean something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not yet that is the main thing the overwhelming majority of humans cannot come to terms with.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I say, "what does it mean?" I'm mean it like, "what does low atmospheric pressure mean".

I think there should be a requirement for what was before the big bang and/or how did the atoms which formed the big come into existence, and how did we come into existence from that. If you want to take that as existential fluff, so be it. But it is our very nature to try and want to understand these things and until we do, we cannot pretend we are 100% certain with respect to God or anything else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless I am mistaken you are agreeing with me. Humans have a natural inclination to know yet when it comes to the ultimate existential questions we simply cannot know and most people cannot accept that.

quinn

04-23-2006, 11:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
God is not a separate, conscious ego, like the majority of Christians believe. It is not a "he." The 10 commandments were made up by humans, and the Bible is no more divine than a Kerouac novel. "God" is nature, the universe, and what everything is made of. "God" is "now." This moment, this experience. I am God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please try to understand how languages and definitions work.

allisfulloflove

04-24-2006, 12:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
God is not a separate, conscious ego, like the majority of Christians believe. It is not a "he." The 10 commandments were made up by humans, and the Bible is no more divine than a Kerouac novel. "God" is nature, the universe, and what everything is made of. "God" is "now." This moment, this experience. I am God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please try to understand how languages and definitions work.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that it's impossible to define "god" and people should just give up instead of blindly going in circles.

pilliwinks

04-24-2006, 12:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So even if you are correct and He doesn't want to make it too easy for us to believe or behave properly, why not at least clue in each new pope or some other prophet for each generation the way He did for Adam and a few others? Can you find any way to steer me past that? This is completely unbelievable to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sound a bit like the man who sits on his roof as the floods rise confidently praying for God to spare him. He tells the guys in boats and choppers not to worry - God will save him. He gets swept to his death and indignantly asks God what happened. God says well I tried twice...

Of the six billion or so humans alive today, I'd guess your access to reasons to believe in God would easily rate in the top 10%. Short of sending someone to personally club you over the head with a revelation, I can't see what more you could ask. You're not short on inspiring evidence from prophets, martyrs, teachers, preachers and whatnot, you're just short on faith.

Now why God doesn't make faith more widely available - that's tougher. Bunny?

Lestat

04-24-2006, 01:19 AM

I agree that humans have a natural inclination to know, but I'm also saying that there IS an answer!! Whether we are capable of ever figuring it out or understanding it, to me is irrelevant. The answer does exist. Somewhere.

Sharkey

04-24-2006, 02:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
... "hitherto we have been permitted to seek beauty only in the morally good - a fact which sufficiently accounts for our having found so little of it and having had to seek about for imaginary beauties without backbone! - As surely as the wicked enjoy a hundred kinds of happiness of which the virtuous have no inkling, so too they possess a hundred kinds of beauty; and many of them have not yet been discovered."- IMCO(in my crappy opinion) this is the best Neitzche quote ever

[/ QUOTE ]

“Everybody’s beautiful in their own way. Under God’s heaven, the world’s gonna find a way.” - Ray Stevens

madnak

04-24-2006, 02:39 AM

You're right. We have access to so many wise and compassionate sources who will tell us why God doesn't exist. We don't need any revelation to figure that out!

quinn

04-24-2006, 02:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
God is not a separate, conscious ego, like the majority of Christians believe. It is not a "he." The 10 commandments were made up by humans, and the Bible is no more divine than a Kerouac novel. "God" is nature, the universe, and what everything is made of. "God" is "now." This moment, this experience. I am God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please try to understand how languages and definitions work.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that it's impossible to define "god" and people should just give up instead of blindly going in circles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. The generally accepted definition of the word "God" is the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator of the universe.

Aytumious

04-24-2006, 03:31 AM

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I agree that humans have a natural inclination to know, but I'm also saying that there IS an answer!! Whether we are capable of ever figuring it out or understanding it, to me is irrelevant. The answer does exist. Somewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree that there is an answer. If you are talking about the ultimate answers of existence there very well may be answers, but we have no idea of knowing if there is and no reason to assume that there is.

Lestat

04-24-2006, 09:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that humans have a natural inclination to know, but I'm also saying that there IS an answer!! Whether we are capable of ever figuring it out or understanding it, to me is irrelevant. The answer does exist. Somewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree that there is an answer. If you are talking about the ultimate answers of existence there very well may be answers, but we have no idea of knowing if there is and no reason to assume that there is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we're talking apples and oranges. There was something before the big bang even if that something was total nothingness. And if so, then from total nothingness matter came into existence somehow. Again, we might never understand how or why, but the answer must exist. Just because we don't know an answer doesn't mean there isn't one. There is an answer to everything. Why wouldn't there be?

chezlaw

04-24-2006, 09:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that humans have a natural inclination to know, but I'm also saying that there IS an answer!! Whether we are capable of ever figuring it out or understanding it, to me is irrelevant. The answer does exist. Somewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree that there is an answer. If you are talking about the ultimate answers of existence there very well may be answers, but we have no idea of knowing if there is and no reason to assume that there is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we're talking apples and oranges. There was something before the big bang even if that something was total nothingness. And if so, then from total nothingness matter came into existence somehow. Again, we might never understand how or why, but the answer must exist. Just because we don't know an answer doesn't mean there isn't one. There is an answer to everything. Why wouldn't there be?

[/ QUOTE ]
because every answer will raise another question.

chez

bunny

04-24-2006, 10:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think we're talking apples and oranges. There was something before the big bang even if that something was total nothingness. And if so, then from total nothingness matter came into existence somehow. Again, we might never understand how or why, but the answer must exist. Just because we don't know an answer doesn't mean there isn't one. There is an answer to everything. Why wouldn't there be?

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you but it's possible there isnt an answer if you have asked a nonsensical question. One example is "What happened before the big bang?" The big bang was the origin of time and space as well as matter, remember. There was no time "before" the big bang, nor any space ready for matter to fill up.

Nonetheless, I think it is correct that there are answers to (some of)our questions, even if we will never know them.

Lestat

04-24-2006, 11:10 AM

I agree with you but it's possible there isnt an answer if you have asked a nonsensical question. One example is "What happened before the big bang?" 

Maybe I'm confusing myself. I don't mean to ask, "What happened BEFORE the big bang". My question is more, "How did the big bang originate?". "Where did everything come from?". Are you saying there isn't an answer to this? The atoms which comprise my computer keyboard and/or Saturn's rings HAD to have originated from something. Are you denying this? Am I wrong to think this is so?

If I am not wrong, then there MUST lie an answer. Whether we'll ever be able to figure it out is irrevelant. The answer MUST exist.

Lestat

04-24-2006, 11:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that humans have a natural inclination to know, but I'm also saying that there IS an answer!! Whether we are capable of ever figuring it out or understanding it, to me is irrelevant. The answer does exist. Somewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree that there is an answer. If you are talking about the ultimate answers of existence there very well may be answers, but we have no idea of knowing if there is and no reason to assume that there is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we're talking apples and oranges. There was something before the big bang even if that something was total nothingness. And if so, then from total nothingness matter came into existence somehow. Again, we might never understand how or why, but the answer must exist. Just because we don't know an answer doesn't mean there isn't one. There is an answer to everything. Why wouldn't there be?

[/ QUOTE ]
because every answer will raise another question.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good point. So everything is circular and there are no real answers to anything. Just things which lead to other things, etc. etc. This actually seems very likely to me and why my current beliefs rely on higher/numerous dimensions. But now I'm in over my head. Does this mean there are no answers? I still say it's either this or God or both and that there are fewer possibilities (maybe answer was the wrong term), in this regard than there are for religions, etc.

bunny

04-24-2006, 11:18 AM

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I agree with you but it's possible there isnt an answer if you have asked a nonsensical question. One example is "What happened before the big bang?" 

Maybe I'm confusing myself. I don't mean to ask, "What happened BEFORE the big bang". My question is more, "How did the big bang originate?". "Where did everything come from?". Are you saying there isn't an answer to this? The atoms which comprise my computer keyboard and/or Saturn's rings HAD to have originated from something. Are you denying this? Am I wrong to think this is so?

If I am not wrong, then there MUST lie an answer. Whether we'll ever be able to figure it out is irrevelant. The answer MUST exist.

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It's more likely I misunderstood - I agree with you here.

allisfulloflove

04-24-2006, 11:49 AM

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God is not a separate, conscious ego, like the majority of Christians believe. It is not a "he." The 10 commandments were made up by humans, and the Bible is no more divine than a Kerouac novel. "God" is nature, the universe, and what everything is made of. "God" is "now." This moment, this experience. I am God.

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Please try to understand how languages and definitions work.

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The point is that it's impossible to define "god" and people should just give up instead of blindly going in circles.

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Not really. The generally accepted definition of the word "God" is the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator of the universe.

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Only in the western world, and by that definition, "God" doesn't exist. I'm talking about reality.

chezlaw

04-24-2006, 12:06 PM

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I agree that humans have a natural inclination to know, but I'm also saying that there IS an answer!! Whether we are capable of ever figuring it out or understanding it, to me is irrelevant. The answer does exist. Somewhere.

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I disagree that there is an answer. If you are talking about the ultimate answers of existence there very well may be answers, but we have no idea of knowing if there is and no reason to assume that there is.

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I think we're talking apples and oranges. There was something before the big bang even if that something was total nothingness. And if so, then from total nothingness matter came into existence somehow. Again, we might never understand how or why, but the answer must exist. Just because we don't know an answer doesn't mean there isn't one. There is an answer to everything. Why wouldn't there be?

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because every answer will raise another question.

chez

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That's a good point. So everything is circular and there are no real answers to anything. Just things which lead to other things, etc. etc. This actually seems very likely to me and why my current beliefs rely on higher/numerous dimensions. But now I'm in over my head. Does this mean there are no answers? I still say it's either this or God or both and that there are fewer possibilities (maybe answer was the wrong term), in this regard than there are for religions, etc.

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I think there are always answers to these types of questions but its possible that there's no ultimate answer.

The holy grail or religon and science seems to be some answer that is necessarily true and explains everything. The search for the grail is useful in itself but there's no reason to suppose it exists, or if it exists we can find it, or if it exists and we find it that we will realise we have found it, or if we think we have found it we will be correct.

chez

quinn

04-24-2006, 01:57 PM

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God is not a separate, conscious ego, like the majority of Christians believe. It is not a "he." The 10 commandments were made up by humans, and the Bible is no more divine than a Kerouac novel. "God" is nature, the universe, and what everything is made of. "God" is "now." This moment, this experience. I am God.

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Please try to understand how languages and definitions work.

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The point is that it's impossible to define "god" and people should just give up instead of blindly going in circles.

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Not really. The generally accepted definition of the word "God" is the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator of the universe.

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Only in the western world, and by that definition, "God" doesn't exist. I'm talking about reality.

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Then "A fabled creature symbolic of virginity and usually represented as a horse with a single straight spiraled horn projecting from its forehead" is not a sufficient definition of unicorn, because it doesn't exist.

allisfulloflove

04-24-2006, 05:04 PM

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God is not a separate, conscious ego, like the majority of Christians believe. It is not a "he." The 10 commandments were made up by humans, and the Bible is no more divine than a Kerouac novel. "God" is nature, the universe, and what everything is made of. "God" is "now." This moment, this experience. I am God.

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Please try to understand how languages and definitions work.

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The point is that it's impossible to define "god" and people should just give up instead of blindly going in circles.

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Not really. The generally accepted definition of the word "God" is the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator of the universe.

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Only in the western world, and by that definition, "God" doesn't exist. I'm talking about reality.

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Then "A fabled creature symbolic of virginity and usually represented as a horse with a single straight spiraled horn projecting from its forehead" is not a sufficient definition of unicorn, because it doesn't exist.

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No, you don't understand. "A separate, conscious, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator of the universe" is not a suffecient definition of "god," because it's wrong; that's not what god is in reality.