Blacks once again victims

[FlFishOn]

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) [edited all of it (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=healthNews&storyid=2006-04-21T172051Z_01_COL162409_RTRUKOC_0_US-DROWNING-RISK.xml&rpc=22) ]- Swimming-pool drowning cases involve a disproportionate number of black boys and young adults, and public pools appear to be the primary danger zone, U.S. government researchers have found.

In one of the most extensive studies to look at the issue, investigators found that nearly half of the swimming-pool drownings they tracked occurred among African Americans - with males being at particular risk.

It's not clear why young African Americans, males in particular, are more likely than other racial groups to drown.

Researchers have speculated that the higher drowning risk among African Americans has to do with income; lower-income families are less likely to be able to afford swimming lessons. However, Saluja's team found that the racial discrepancy persisted even when they factored in income. More research, they say, is needed to understand the underlying reasons.
----------------------------------------------
There are two really solid reasons this occurs. Neither is PC and won't pass muster in academia or at Reuters. I'll let you go first and post my thesis later.

[Copernicus]

Hmmm....their body densities are greater so they dont float as easily? /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Actually my guess would be (if the data collection is unbiased) that they swim without qualified supervision more frequently, possibly an economic issue regarding being able to afford life guards at public facilities, and single parent households not providing as much supervision of private pools.

[Fly]

On average blacks have a lower percentage of body fat then whites which means they do not float as well.

[Lestat]

I wonder what productive value they think these surveys accomplish?

Quality of supervision and/or lessons makes the most sense to me. Nothing else.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
On average blacks have a lower percentage of body fat then whites which means they do not float as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this makes the most sense... Surfers and olympic swimmers are out of shape cows.

[NobodysFreak]

The whole poor supervision/lack of training begs the question as to why they're in the pool in the first place.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
The whole poor supervision/lack of training begs the question as to why they're in the pool in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you're a kid on a hot summer's day, are you really gonna think about supervision if you want to go swimming? I never did.

[NobodysFreak]

I'd think about it if I'm in water that's over my head and I don't know how to swim.

[guesswest]

Who in the hell thought to commission this study?!?

[madnak]

That's weird. This happens more in public than private pools? Why would that be?

The two ideas that come to mind are a bit disturbing. Either blacks are more likely to be deliberately drowned, or blacks are less likely to receive assistance when drowning in a public pool.

How can someone drown in a public pool anyhow? Don't they have lifeguards?

[guesswest]

What we need to know here is what percentage of people swimming in public pools are black - without that stat this survey means less than nothing.

[FlFishOn]

"... blacks are less likely to receive assistance when drowning in a public pool."

I'd bet that white lifeguards refuse to do mouth to mouth. EMTs too. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[FlFishOn]

"Hmmm....their body densities are greater so they dont float as easily? "

I'm certain this is reason #1. My college roomate was black and super fit. He needed to pass swimming to graduate. He was a stone in the pool, just a lead weight.

Reason #2 is a little harder to document. I believe it relates to #1 in that blacks tend to shun swimming as a cultural prejudice since it is more dangerous for them. That translates into less practice. It's kinda like why I, as a white man, don't dance or dunk a bball. I just suck at it and I know it.

But the real point of all this is WHY? Why couldn't the researchers come up with such an obvious potential conclusion? It's because any discussion of racial* differences is career poison. And that means we, as a society, will never come to terms with any problems that have, at their root, racial difference. Sad indeed.

* Don't bother to mention that race is a social construct load of horse manure. Start your own thread and wank away.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd think about it if I'm in water that's over my head and I don't know how to swim.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I read somewhere (and it makes sense), that most drowning victims are those who know how to swim! Those who do not know how to swim are much more careful about getting into situations where they could drown.

[hmkpoker]

I've heard it has something to do with bone density, that blacks are biologically "heavier," or however it works. Could be a combination of that and culture or whatever else, I don't know.

This is definately true, though. When I was a beach lifeguard, they told us (we were all white, btw) to pay extra attention to black people because they'll sink like rocks. A very significant number of rescues were blacks, even though very few blacks went into the ocean. (We used to call them "rockfish" hehe)

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On average blacks have a lower percentage of body fat then whites which means they do not float as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this makes the most sense... Surfers and olympic swimmers are out of shape cows.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having body fat certainly doesn't make you an out-of-shape cow.

Competitive swimmers have much more body fat than their running and cycling counterparts. It makes you more buoyant. Surfers have nothing to do with this, because they don't actually have to swim or be buoyant.

[NobodysFreak]

I think that's a good argument against what those reporters were speculating, namely, that being of low income they don't get swimming lessons or if they do, they're insufficient. Someone who doesn't have a command of or atleast a decent initiation into swimming isn't as likely to take dangerous risks in the pool. So we're left at the same point, why would someone who is poor at swimming or doesn't know how to at all, take a stupid risk in an area where they have no experience?

[madnak]

Note to self: if you ever want to get rid of a black man, take him on a fishing trip.

[hmkpoker]

Nah, I'll just give him a rock of crack and let nature take its course /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[guesswest]

Swimming lessons, really? Who here actually learned to swim as a result of lessons?

Don't most kids learn to swim the same way they learn to walk, by splashing around until they figure out a way of staying afloat?

I can't remember learning to swim or not being able to swim.

[madnak]

I learned from lessons. Did you grow up in the country or something?

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
"... blacks are less likely to receive assistance when drowning in a public pool."

I'd bet that white lifeguards refuse to do mouth to mouth. EMTs too. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Lifeguards don't give mouth to mouth anymore. They use these things:

http://www.alphamedical.com/cpr_li2.jpg

[madnak]

What? Even on the chicks?

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
Swimming lessons, really? Who here actually learned to swim as a result of lessons?

Don't most kids learn to swim the same way they learn to walk, by splashing around until they figure out a way of staying afloat?

I can't remember learning to swim or not being able to swim.

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I hear, I learned to swim by jumping into the deep end of a pool when I was 4 years old. It almost gave my mother a heart attack, but by the time anyone could jump in to save me I was already swimming!

But if you're fortunate to attend a summer camp, you'll receive swimming lessons there. And most public pools offer group lessons for kids, etc.

[guesswest]

Yes, but if you're picturing a Mark Twain tire swing type deal it's not that - I'm pretty sure the first time I swam would have been in a pool. I was just kinda under the impression most people learned to swim by trial and error vs formal lessons.

[Lestat]

I still say it's supervision. Whether a child is a strong swimmer or not, they are going to want to keep up with their buddies in the pool (this is especially true of boys). Sometimes the play gets rough or the challenges get too advanced for a particular child. Sometimes children don't want to admit they're a weak swimmer and will try to keep up with whatever their peers are doing (there wasn't a diving board high enough I wasn't willing to go off if I saw someone else doing it).

It's easy to imagine if supervision is lacking there will be more accidents. At least that's my opinion.

[Lestat]

I was a lifeguard too and never heard that.

I'm having a really hard time believing there is any reason why a black person should be more likely to drown than anyone else of comparable swimming ability.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On average blacks have a lower percentage of body fat then whites which means they do not float as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this makes the most sense... Surfers and olympic swimmers are out of shape cows.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having body fat certainly doesn't make you an out-of-shape cow.

Competitive swimmers have much more body fat than their running and cycling counterparts. It makes you more buoyant. Surfers have nothing to do with this, because they don't actually have to swim or be buoyant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? Surfers don't have to swim?!! Olympic swimmers want fat to keep more bouyant?!!

I'm not falling for it. You gotta be joking.

[FlFishOn]

semi-bump

"Hmmm....their body densities are greater so they dont float as easily? "

I'm certain this is reason #1. My college roomate was black and super fit. He needed to pass swimming to graduate. He was a stone in the pool, just a lead weight.

Reason #2 is a little harder to document. I believe it relates to #1 in that blacks tend to shun swimming as a cultural prejudice since it is more dangerous for them. That translates into less practice. It's kinda like why I, as a white man, don't dance or dunk a bball. I just suck at it and I know it.

But the real point of all this is WHY? Why couldn't the researchers come up with such an obvious potential conclusion? It's because any discussion of racial* differences is career poison. And that means we, as a society, will never come to terms with any problems that have, at their root, racial difference. Sad indeed.

* Don't bother to mention that race is a social construct load of horse manure. Start your own thread and wank away.

[guesswest]

I don't really know enough about this to form an opinion. But I did find this (http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/2711/First_Black_Olympic_Swimmer_qualifies) amusing story (amusing because of the photo).

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you serious? Surfers don't have to swim?!! Olympic swimmers want fat to keep more bouyant?!!

I'm not falling for it. You gotta be joking.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm not. Calm down for a second.

The average competitive swimmer has more body fat than the average competitive cyclist or runner. Now, that's not to say they have a lot, of course. They're certainly very fit people, and less fat than the average American couch potato. But they're not RIPPED like their running and cycling counterparts. Watch the olympics and you'll see what I mean. Lower body density (to a certain point) can be advantageous in swimming because it contributes to buoyancy, and I think blacks tend to have a higher body density.

As for surfers, I'm actually not kidding. I used to do quite a lot of surfing. You really don't have to know how to swim to surf, because you spend the entire time tethered to a giant foam-core fiberglass floatation device. It's almost like being on a boat. Almost all surfers know how to swim (duh, they're in the water all the time), but on rare occasions you'll meet one who actually doesn't know how to swim. If you don't believe me, watch The Endless Summer II, (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/6303614272/002-6387167-0203249?v=glance&n=404272) an excellent surf documentary. One of the guys in it can surf very well, but actually can not swim to save his life. (And yes, he is black /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[Lestat]

I don't know. I've surfed too and some of my buds who rode the really big ones were some of the strongest swimmers I've ever met. Also, some of the closest incidents I've ever had to drowning came while surfing. Once I was almost knocked unconscious falling off a wave and hitting my head on the bottom.

So we're on totally different pages here as if we're talking about a completely different sport, cuz if you've ever fell off a big wave onto a rocky bottom and had the wave crash over you, I don't see how you can say you don't have to know how to swim. Also, have you ever gotten sucked out by an undertow from a big wave? It's the single scariest encounter I've ever had.

Here's a pic of olympic swimmers Michael Phelps and Inge De Bruijn. Now granted, Phelps isn't ripped, but there isn't an ounce of fat on those abs! Also, notice Ingo is pretty buffed for a girl. Either way, I would say neither has any more fat that your average black kid in a public pool and that's really my point!


http://i3.tinypic.com/w1zr6o.jpg

[hmkpoker]

Look.

The point is that fat and low bone density, or whatever else it may be, contribute to better buoyancy, which keeps people from drowning. At highly competitive levels, the buoyancy of fat is not worth the inactivity required to have it. Michale Phelps and Inge De Brujin obviously have very little fat, but unlike the average black kid, they've been swimming their whole lives.

BTW, yes I've been in an undertow twice. I swam parallel and swam back in half a mile south. It was annoying, but I knew how to handle it.

[Lestat]

My point is, that you don't drown from lack of buoyancy. You drown from inhaling water! I don't care how good of a swimmer you are, if you get sucked in by a strong undertow you're gonna drown. By the same token...

I don't care how much fat... bone marrow... or poop to brain ratio someone has, they're not gonna sink as long as they have air in their lungs. This is especially true if they know how to swim! Again, you drown from inhaling water, not from sinking! So I still maintain that a black person is no more likely to drown than than a white person of similar physical stature and swimming ability. The problem with the OP statistic lies elsewhere.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
* Don't bother to mention that race is a social construct load of horse manure. Start your own thread and wank away.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I let go of an apple, it will rise, or hang suspended in mid-air, and not fall.


* Don't bother to mention that gravity stuff - it's a load of horse manure. Start your own thread and wank away.

[Metric]

Comparing the concept of race to the truly obvious certainty of gravity?

At the very least, it's a "social construct" based on physical, genetically inherited traits.

[Lestat]

So all of you believe that blacks drown more because... They "Don't float as easily?".

I'm laughing my ass off here! Someone show me a study that says, blacks don't float well. And even if you could... I guarantee that if a black man held his breath and remained motionless in 20ft. of water he would NOT SINK!!! Just like a white man wouldn't sink. It is actually difficult to sink when both your lungs are filled with air.

Maybe I'm making a fool of myself, but I'm willing to take all you guys on this one. I think you're off your rockers!

[FlFishOn]

Next!

[FlFishOn]

"Maybe I'm making a fool of myself,"

Won't be the last time either. Probably not even tonight.

[FlFishOn]

Might require a shower photo to prove his claim as the 'first Black Olympic swimmer'.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
"Maybe I'm making a fool of myself,"

Won't be the last time either. Probably not even tonight.

[/ QUOTE ]

At least I'll admit it.

You are jumping to conclusions. Show me any evidence, ANY... That suggest blacks are at higher risk to drown due to body fat or any physical makeup.

It is far more likely that the reason black children are more likely to drown is due to poor supervision and lacking proper instruction.

Also note that the study mainly claimed a discrepency among young African Americans without mention of grown adults. If your theory even had a chance of being true, why wouldn't this be the case for ALL African Americans?

[guesswest]

I don't think we actually know very much about what this study says at all based on the info the article provides.

The most obvious thing that's lacking is the actual number of blacks vs whites swimming in these pools in the first place. And surely any conclusion as to what's more 'likely' is contingent on this number.

The spotlight fact in the article is this:

'Nationally, between 1995 and 1998, 51 percent of drownings among blacks ages 5 to 24 happened in a public pool. Most often, it was a hotel or motel pool. That stands in contrast to white children and young adults, 55 percent of whom drowned in a residential pool.'

As far as I can tell this is just saying more whites have their own pools? Which is hardly surprising based on income stats.

[FlFishOn]

Here: some random dense study (http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/91/3/1259)

Read and report, I don't have the time.

[madnak]

More links that don't answer the question:

CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/drown.htm)
about.com (http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa070901a.htm)

I think the most interesting figure is that black children under the age of four drown less often than white children. Maybe they get started at a later age? The fact that overcrowding and an absence of lifeguards is more common in low-poverty areas also seems relevant.

[Lestat]

I agree, these numbers are insufficient to form any concrete meaningful conclusions , which is why I think it's a mistake to make the leap that the findings must be attributed to body fat, bone desnsity, or any other physical state.

It could be any number of things not the least of which you mentioned that whites have more access to private pools. In many white areas if a child doesn't have a pool in his backyard, chances are a neighbor does. In the inner city there aren't many backyard pools that I know of.

[guesswest]

Btw, anyone notice the bad grammar in that article? Surprising there's any whites left if 55% of them are drowning every year.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
So all of you believe that blacks drown more because... They "Don't float as easily?".

[/ QUOTE ]

*shrug* I've only heard that they generally had higher body density or something. Never really looked into it much. Maybe it is entirely cultural. I don't care.

The important thing that has come out of this thread is that Inge de Brujin is t3h hawt

http://img15.exs.cx/img15/9871/Inge_De_Bruijn.jpg

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">The important thing that has come out of this thread is that Inge de Brujin is t3h hawt </font>

It's amazing the unexpected finds that can come from a good argument, ain't it?

[surftheiop]

Im not sure if they float less easily than whites but i do know for a fact i can hold my breath and lay on the bottom of a pool.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
Im not sure if they float less easily than whites but i do know for a fact i can hold my breath and lay on the bottom of a pool.

[/ QUOTE ]

In how deep of water? Tell me it doesn't take effort to stay on the bottom of a pool with a lungfull of air in 8 ft. of water.

[Sharkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Im not sure if they float less easily than whites but i do know for a fact i can hold my breath and lay on the bottom of a pool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you reach a certain depth, the weight of the water compresses your air-filled chest thereby reducing your overall outside volume, and so your buoyancy decreases.

[AceofSpades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im not sure if they float less easily than whites but i do know for a fact i can hold my breath and lay on the bottom of a pool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you reach a certain depth, the weight of the water compresses your air-filled chest thereby reducing your overall outside volume, and so your buoyancy decreases.

[/ QUOTE ]

What depth does this occcur?

[Sharkey]

Any depth to some degree, to be accurate. More so for deeper dives.

[hmkpoker]

It's wrong, but I want to see if I can say the word [censored] here.

EDIT: nope, apparently not.

[Rduke55]

This thread is idiotic. Thankfully there are a couple of reasonable people in here as shown by this:

[ QUOTE ]
The most obvious thing that's lacking is the actual number of blacks vs whites swimming in these pools in the first place. And surely any conclusion as to what's more 'likely' is contingent on this number.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not "They are denser"

The next thread by FlFish will be "Black people get shot more because their skin is higher contrast with the background so you can see them better to aim at."

[FlFishOn]

"Black people get shot more because their skin is higher contrast with the background so you can see them better to aim at."

Nah. I'm sticking with the density thing and the associated increase in gravitational attraction, kinda sucking up the bullets.

[Drjamescrow]

i tried to teach a black kid to swim once and it was impossible. he couldnt float at all. ive heard of other people having the same problem teaching black children to swim. has anyone ever seen any black swimmers in the olympics?

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
i tried to teach a black kid to swim once and it was impossible. he couldnt float at all. ive heard of other people having the same problem teaching black children to swim. has anyone ever seen any black swimmers in the olympics?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a silver medalist. (http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/DesktopModules/BioView.aspx?bioid=73&amp;TabId=388&amp;Mid=597)

[guesswest]

It's not that the idea that there could be some physiological reason is outside of the realm of possibility. Although most certainly a generalization, there are certain physical characteristics that have a tendency to show up more in certain races than others. And it's not unimaginable that some such characteristic could have bearing on swimming ability.

The point is we don't actually have any information from this study that shows blacks are more likely to drown. And even if we did we'd need information showing that they were drowning more in equal circumstances. The whole conversation is ridiculous without this info.

[Rduke55]

I'm not saying that it's outside the realm of possibility that a physiological difference would make it more likely someone would drown or not (and I'm not saying anything on the race thing) but there's a clear explanation people are missing.

[guesswest]

I know, that was more an RE: to fish, just used the quick reply box.

And certainly wasn't trying to regurgitate the race debate, just meant that whether by design or luck 'race' stumbles on familial heritage more than chance, so could reflect in a stat like this.

As far as a clear explanation goes I'd just say this survey doesn't tell us anything either way on the subject that's being discussed, so it's all conjecture.

[Rduke55]

How about instead of "clear" we say "simple"

[guesswest]

Well, I'm not sure where you're going with that. But I'd say the most likely simple explanation, and the first one to rule out, is the sample.

If 90% of kids swimming in public pools are black you'd expect 90% of drownings to be black kids. This survey does not give us the first number. There's all kinds of other ways in which the sample could be cause for concern too, none of which are addressed in that article.

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I'm not sure where you're going with that. But I'd say the most likely simple explanation, and the first one to rule out, is the sample.

If 90% of kids swimming in public pools are black you'd expect 90% of drownings to be black kids. This survey does not give us the first number. There's all kinds of other ways in which the sample could be cause for concern too, none of which are addressed in that article.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I'm saying. A simple explanation is in the numbers. Which we don't have.

[FlFishOn]

"Just a silver medalist. "

But so far no men are olympic calibre.

[FlFishOn]

The study is not the article. I'd imagine that with study in hand some of the sweeping claims in the article would bear up to statistical analysis. Or maybe it's all a fraud.

Assume it's correct. Why were they unable to provide any working hypothesis as to why more blacks die swimming? I contend (and the reason for the post) is that any issue where black/white racial differences could come into play is career poison. The issue must be burried, ignored, spun, glossed over, or lied about. An honest treatment will not occur because of the PC danger.

Now excuse me while I study that 'more often shooting victims' thing.

[madnak]

You forgot about this guy (http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/2711/First_Black_Olympic_Swimmer_qualifies)!

[guesswest]

I have no idea what the study says, and neither do you. If the evidence provided by the study didn't back up the sensational claims made by a journalist it'd hardly be unusual, that's about the norm. In any event, I'm not going to conclude anything based on statistics I haven't seen.

And even setting that aside, the article only says more blacks are drowning. That's not the same as 'more likely' to drown on an individual basis, it's only you that's getting that from this article. As I said previously, that statistic may only mean more blacks are swimming in pools in the first place.

I'm not saying you're wrong with your general assertion that a journalist may shy away from making racially sensitive observations in instances where they're actually pertinent. But I see zero indication that this is happening here.

[FlFishOn]

"I'm not saying you're wrong with your general assertion that a journalist may shy away from making racially sensitive observations in instances where they're actually pertinent."

I'm more concerned with the researchers not digging into the issue. Gutless lying journalists are a dime a dozen.