Am I Doing the Right Thing?

[Lestat]

This probably belongs in OOT, but I wanted to get the advice of some of the SMP regulars who's opinions I respect (both atheists and theists alike).

I took my kids to see Grandma (my mom), on Good Friday. My mom is Catholic (although she believes in God, I wouldn't call her a practicing Catholic), and my ex-wife is also raising my kids Catholic. Anyway...

When we got to my mom's, being a typical mother, one of the first things she asked me was if I'd like something to eat. I said "Sure. A sandwich would be fine. Do you have ham and cheese?". She said, "No ham. How about a grilled cheese?". I said, "Ok.".

Later, I come to find out she had ham all along! I asked her why she told me she didn't have ham. She says, "I didn't say I didn't HAVE ham... I said NO ham. It's Good Friday!". We all got a laugh out of it as I jokingly made a big deal out of being lied to by my mother.

Of course, both my kids agreed with her saying, "DAD! It's a sin to eat meat on Good Friday!". The subject of religion wasn't going away and to make a long story short, I was coaxed completely out of the closet regarding my stance on God and religion to both my kid's and mother's disbelief.

I wasn't rude or anything, but my mom ended up calling me a heathen! She was really upset that I said I didn't believe in religion in front of her grandchildren (who are now 9 and 11). She said I should let them think for themselves. I pointed out that she was exactly right and that I also wanted them to think for themselves and not necessarily believe everything just because they're told. But if they feel God in their hearts then that's fine and they should believe what they want. This conversation probably went gentler than it seems, but some of it did take place in front of my kids.

Anyway, I feel somewhat relieved that both my kids now know exactly where I stand as far as God and religion goes. They now know for sure that their dad's an atheist. Hopefully they also know that I will accept whatever they end up believing. I just thought it was important that they knew there was another side to things. They've been told there's a God since they were little kids. They go to religious school. I assume most of their friends believe in God (I know some of them do). My kids didn't know there was any other way to think when it comes to religion.

Did I handle this all wrong? My sense (although I do not know this for a fact), is that most atheists on here are somewhat younger and might not have children yet. I'd really like to hear from those who do have kids, both atheists and theists. Of course, the reason I'm asking this is that something feels wrong to me. I think I should've waited and let the subject came up in a different way. But I can't turn back time or what was said. Any suggestions on how to handle this from here on out? Thanks.

[Alex-db]

I think that a great part of my academic development was questioning why we said grace at lunchtime at primary school. I hope it turns out you have rescued them from a lifetime of closed-mindedness.

Its these type of realisations that lead a school kid to realise that adults (teachers) make mistakes, and you should think through and question everything they tell you.

(I think I pissed the teachers off at school, but really they should have got what they were teaching us correct in the first place)

This is what universities struggle to convey to typical students who have never learnt to think for themselves, but its a lesson that can be learned in Primary school and practised for years by then.

Protecting children from alternative opinions sounds to me like brain-washing. And giving them a fair doubt of the righteousnous of catholic preists sounds like playing it safe anyway /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Lestat]

I didn't want to mention this because it would look like just another bragging parent, but both my kids are actually fairly smart. Not genuises or anything, but definitely smarter than normal.

My biggest question is, would they have figured things out for themselves eventually? And... Should I have just let that happen? To be honest, this is what I was hoping for. That one day they would ask me if there really was a god and start questioning all the tall stories in the bible. On the other hand, it's sometimes very hard to think outside the box you're brought up in. But something tells me I should've at least given them more of a chance to start questioning things on their own.

[Matt R.]

Hi,
I'm 25 and have no kids, so maybe my advice is not what you're looking for. But, based on your story, I believe you played it perfectly fine. I think the important thing in situations like this is that you get your children to ask the proper questions. "Why is it wrong to eat meat on Good Friday?" "Why do I believe there is a God?" That type of stuff. The key is to get them to look deeper instead of thinking things are true because others tell them they are true. Even outside of religious debates, it gets them to start thinking for themselves. And in the context of religion, it should make them realize that the most important thing is faith, since there is no way to prove one view true or false. Even if they decide they really believe in God, it will probably cue them to think harder about it and give them a deeper understanding of their faith. Basically, I believe there can be no harm in initializing your kids to start thinking about these things, regardless of how their beliefs end up.

If I ever have kids, one thing I have already decided I will do is ask them the fundamentals questions for why they do or think certain things. I'll never tell them "this is right/wrong". Asking them "why did you do that?" or "why do you think that?" will give them the proper basis for thinking about the tough questions. I think it's really easy to get in a rut and accept nearly everything as true without being true to yourself. I see this in the vast majority of people that I know. I would like for my kids to be free thinkers and always be honest with themselves.

[Matt R.]

And as far as you question regarding should you have let them figure things out on your own. I think that is exactly what you're doing. You're no longer hiding your beliefs from them. I assume you didn't tell them "My beliefs are correct, there is no God.", etc.?

Giving them alternative view points early on is what allows kids to start thinking "outside the box", if you will. If you restrict this information from them I think it will severely inhibit your kids ability to think things through of their own volition when they're older. Since the conversation was apparantly coaxed out of you, I think you chose the only correct option -- to remain honest. Let your kids think about these hard questions, I am virtually certain it will benefit them in the long run as long as you or someone else is there for guidance when they need it.

Edit -- And just as a side note, I think your mother calling you a "heathen" and getting angry is a direct result of her being told "this is how things are" when she was younger. She never "learned" to question authority, and seems to be pretty closed minded (in terms of religion) as a result. I'm not insulting your mother BTW; I just think this is how things are and how the vast majority of the population operates.

[Lestat]

Thanks for your thoughts Matt


<font color="blue"> I assume you didn't tell them "My beliefs are correct, there is no God.", etc.? </font>

I did put it in the context of what I believe and was not adament that I must be correct. However, to a kid I'm not sure there's much difference or distinction.

As to my mom, I doubt she's ever really given it serious thought. And isn't that exactly what I abhor on here? If you've done the contemplation and still believe in God or religion, I really have little problem with it. It's those who've never even considered any other possible reality, yet are willing to fight tooth and nail that they are right.

[bocablkr]

Lestat,

Good for you. My children are 11 and 8 and have known my feelings about God, spirits, ghosts, etc for many years now. They are free to believe what they want but I do not hesitate to explain to them the 'facts' as I see them.

As far as whether it was an appropriate setting for your 'outing' is open for conjecture. Personally, I have had my best discussions when I have been invited to a house full of religious people and someone makes the mistake of asking me something about god or religion. Then the gloves come off with very few survivors /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[guesswest]

I don't think you did anything wrong there. I'd say your kids being exposed to you debating and disagreeing (in an amicable way) with other adults, can only do them good in terms of realizing that nobody has an authoritative view on this stuff, which will hopefully make them more prone to question their own beliefs and sources as they emerge.

On a seperate note, I was hanging out with my family on easter sunday, and pissed my sister off immensely by explaining to her 9 year old daughter the theory that christianity was a misguided osiris/isis cult.

[luckyme]

I'm from a large catholic-based family, I became an agnostic quite young and am now an atheist. Their public school is in a typical medium-religous community ( relatively few atheists ). They're honor students but not brilliant. great kids though :-)

We taught them a live-and-let-live way of looking at life, mostly by example ( their words) and a willingness to question their own desired actions and opinions as well as common standards. Essentially, don't take it as 'right' either because you like/want it that way or others claim it is. think.

My situation doesn't apply to yours directly because we never had to make the choice 'when do we expose them to other views'. They were naturally exposed to religion from school, friends, family, tv, movies, books, and to essentially a shrug about it from us.

They'd likely be classed as agnostic. The rare time we've directly discussed their viewpoints, their reasons are different than mine that are different from my wifes and different from each other. There are many routes to non-belief as well as many routes to belief. Religious people have great difficulty grasping the non-issue religion is to most non-believers ( a philosophy forum gives a terrible slice of whats out there).

They are on the long side of kind, thoughtful and law-abiding, not because of fear of punishment but they have a good handle on right-wrong and how to know the difference.

wish it related more to your case, luckyme

[Copernicus]

My son (now 18 and attending a Jesuit University, lol) is adopted. We made the decision early on that his adoption would be treated as just another fact. He saw pictures of the orphanage, books written by kids at the orphanage etc. It was just an alternative and natural way of becoming a parent.

Religious issues were treated in almost the same way. His mother is a non-practicing Catholic who believes but understands that her belief is based on "brainwashing", not rational thought. I am an atheist.

Religious discussions usually centered around Christmas or separation of Church and state. They arose naturally out of what was going on around us at the time...much like your discussion arose out of Good Friday/Easter.

In our discussions the issue over what I believed or didnt believe was never addressed, though the absence of that discussion might be taken as evidence that I am atheist.

His other main exposure to religion would have been through friends (few of which practiced extensively, since it would have intefered with the hockey schedule) and girlfriends.

He formulated his own atheism by observation of the world and learning about others beliefs, though in a less formal setting than my Ethical Culture education.

So all in all, I think you did the right thing. The discussion arose naturally, and to shut it down would ultimately be damaging to your credibility, much as your mothers obfuscatory "No ham" could lead one to question whether her answers can be taken at face value.

Edit: BTW as an atheist I would be uncomfortable with my kids thinking that "eating ham on Friday" is a "sin". While I understand that they are young, it trivializes imporant concepts of "right and wrong" by such a drastic classification of a dietary law that no longer makes sense (and I dont believe is even mandated any longer?) I would have been much happier to hear "Yeah, dad, it isnt traditional to eat ham on Good Friday".

[Lestat]

I think what's key is that your child's mother understands that her belief is primary by default (brainwashing). Did she insist they attend religious school, make their first communion, confirmation, etc.?

My ex-wife even though she doesn't practice Catholicism, does insist on our kids going through th motions. I'm ok with it as I don't want to disrespect hers or her family's (or my family's), beliefs. But that naturally causes a one-sided view for my kids or at the very least tunnel vision, which I do object to.

What really took me aback was the astoshiment both of them showed towards me. At first, they thought I was joking. Then I think they were scared I would be struck down by God right then and there for saying He didn't exist. -lol

What this points to is just how brainwashed they are already! I didn't know whether to feel guilty that I rocked their world, or sad that they were so naive.

[HedonismBot]

Your mom is acting like you just spilled the beans about Santa. Absolutely nothing wrong with what you did.

[RJT]

Stat,

I think the whole scene sounds like it went fairly well actually. Unless I missed something, I do not see what your concern is. That you didn’t actually sit down with the kids and have a talk about it directly – and at some other time?

I think you are saying, yeah, you envisioned it happening differently. Well, I like the way it went down.

I am constantly trying to figure out what is wrong with the way parents raise their kids today versus how we were raised. I don’t know. I used to hang in the background and listen to the adult conversation and take things in. When I started getting old enough to give input, I did. Nowadays, it seems like adults put their kids on the same level as the adults. Mostly, the parents come down to child level rather than bring kids up to adult level. There doesn’t seem to be any demarcation between adult/child relationships anymore. The kids heard your conversation. I think that is good. They are old enough to try to start to put it all together themselves; young enough that it might not matter, yet. If they need more info at this time they will ask.

My wife taught school for over 20 years. She is always telling me that parents today need to let their kids grow up on their own. Not totally of course, but give them space to learn themselves. I agree with her.

Regarding my opinion of parents today - I am not talking about you, Stat. Just your topic gave me an opportunity to rant.

Btw, regarding the ham. I love how your mom said “no, ham”.


RJT

p.s. Happy Easter - lol - hey we need a thread on that. Do we say happy holidays? Happy Springtime?

[Lestat]

I guess it was how my kids reacted. At first, they laughed nervously thinking I must have been joking, but at the same time they seemed genuinely scared and concerned as though half expecting their dad to be struck down by God right then and there.

It didn't seem right. I shook their little world. They had never considered the possibility of there not being any god. It has always been assumed and implied for them. I'm serious when I say they seemed fearful for me (not of me). And that makes sense if they just found out their dad is going to hell. That's gotta be tough on a kid. Shaking their whole world view like that.

I just feel it could've happened more naturally. I imagined that one day they would have come up with questions on their own. This is what I would've preferred. Of course, mostly because I would've been proud of how smart they are (no offense).

I like what your wife has to say. I very much agree with her.

[RJT]

Reminds me of the time I first heard my dad say the “f” word. Had heard the hell word and the damn word, of course. We guys (dad, my two brothers, uncle and his son, my cousin our age) we on a fishing trip. We were all in the car and dad was talking to uncle and out it came. Don’t remember the conversation. But, we kids were like ‘wow”. (We kids of course used the word all the time. It just never occurred to us that our parents ever did.) Totally shocked and amused at the same time. After the initial shock wore off, we got on with our lives. I realized we had entered the adult world for a second. Back on with our lives I think we had a new awareness of things in general, albeit minor.

Although, their fear is probably justified – that you are going to hell /images/graemlins/grin.gif – I think it probably was cool the way in all came down. Especiallly, given that they are smart kids - if they weren't smart kids, then I think the shock might need to be dealt with directly. Let's see how it develops on its own, is my take.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
I imagined that one day they would have come up with questions on their own. This is what I would've preferred. Of course, mostly because I would've been proud of how smart they are (no offense).

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be fairly rare, and it's not all that related to smartness. Most kids that are raised with indocrination have little reason to challenge it, usually that's only done by the ones that end up on SMP :-) If you're told that elves make the raindrops, then every raindrop is more proof of elves.

For,say, a 13 year old immersed in "our prayers are with the miners", and "god bless america" never mind direct lessons, to say ..."hmmm, what's going on here?" just isn't going to happen unless they are especially inquisitive and skeptical, and likely an anti-hierarchical tendency thrown in.

I don't think mine would have been atheists if my mom/dad had raised them, unlike myself. They required more room for the inquisitiveness to work it through.

luckyme

[Trantor]

[ QUOTE ]


Anyway, I feel somewhat relieved that both my kids now know exactly where I stand as far as God and religion goes. They now know for sure that their dad's an atheist. Hopefully they also know that I will accept whatever they end up believing. I just thought it was important that they knew there was another side to things. They've been told there's a God since they were little kids. They go to religious school. I assume most of their friends believe in God (I know some of them do). My kids didn't know there was any other way to think when it comes to religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to say I find it totaly incomprehensible how anyone can bring kids up to that age in total ignorance of their own religous beliefs. I am really staggered. I knew the US was getting more and more socially Christian fundamentalist ( atheist= no job in lots of areas) but if this is typical of how it can affect an ordinary intelligent citizen it really is worse than I imagined possible. Not a critisism of you just of the social environment you have found yourself in that can exert such pressures.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Anyway, I feel somewhat relieved that both my kids now know exactly where I stand as far as God and religion goes. They now know for sure that their dad's an atheist. Hopefully they also know that I will accept whatever they end up believing. I just thought it was important that they knew there was another side to things. They've been told there's a God since they were little kids. They go to religious school. I assume most of their friends believe in God (I know some of them do). My kids didn't know there was any other way to think when it comes to religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to say I find it totaly incomprehensible how anyone can bring kids up to that age in total ignorance of their own religous beliefs. I am really staggered. I knew the US was getting more and more socially Christian fundamentalist ( atheist= no job in lots of areas) but if this is typical of how it can affect an ordinary intelligent citizen it really is worse than I imagined possible. Not a critisism of you just of the social environment you have found yourself in that can exert such pressures.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't disagree with you. In our families it is almost automatic that when a child is born, he/she gets baptized. It's almost like the celebration for the birth of the child, than anything else. Although, no doubt some family members take it seriously.

So you're correct. That's my fault for going through the motions without letting my feelings be known. However, I should say that religion doesn't disgust me and I'm not that adament about it one way or another. I just don't believe. That doesn't mean I have anything against others that do, including my own wife.

So how did it get to this point? Well, my ex decided that they should go to religious school. If this was important to her, I really didn't have a problem with that. I did say that I wanted to let them make their own decisions when they get older. I also brought up the hypocrisy point. That is, WE don't live a Christian lifestyle, why would you expect our children to? To this day, I never did get a good answer to that. And I think this is the way a lot of Christians think....

I think they go through the motions as a sort of insurance policy. To all the Christians on here, how many of you REALLY practice your faith? It's one thing to CALL yourself a Christian and quite another to BE one.

Of course, I didn't want to confuse my kids when they were too young by telling them there is no God... To this day, I won't tell them there is no God, just that I don't believe.

But I see what you're saying and you're right. It's tough being an atheist in a predominantely believing world.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to say I find it totaly incomprehensible how anyone can bring kids up to that age in total ignorance of their own religous beliefs. I am really staggered.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do understand that he is divorced? I assume the wife has the kids most of the time. I would think that when Lestat gets the kids they really don't get into metaphysics all too often.

[madnak]

I definitely don't have kids, but I remember being in a similar situation to your children. My father is a devout Mormon and my mother is agnostic. She allowed him to indoctrinate me with his views, but she never explained hers to me. When I first found out that my mother didn't believe in God or the Bible I was shocked. I spent the next couple of years trying to "save her soul." Then I realized I was being an idiot and drop-kicked the religion out of my life.

In retrospect I think the LDS Church actually did me a lot of harm. I was pretty unstable in general and had anxiety problems, and all the talk of sin and hell had a really deep effect on me. I'm a bit angry at myself for never having doubted during my early childhood. But I'm definitely glad I learned her true feelings as soon as possible, even though they made me very uncomfortable originally.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]

So all in all, I think you did the right thing. The discussion arose naturally, and to shut it down would ultimately be damaging to your credibility, much as your mothers obfuscatory "No ham" could lead one to question whether her answers can be taken at face value.

Edit: BTW as an atheist I would be uncomfortable with my kids thinking that "eating ham on Friday" is a "sin". While I understand that they are young, it trivializes imporant concepts of "right and wrong" by such a drastic classification of a dietary law that no longer makes sense (and I dont believe is even mandated any longer?) I would have been much happier to hear "Yeah, dad, it isnt traditional to eat ham on Good Friday".

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously my position is not the same as Copernicus but I agree with everything he said here and couldnt say it any better - particularly the last bit about trivialising sin.

I think the reason the situation "felt wrong" to you is the fact that it all came out in a confrontational way with your mother rather than in an educational way one-on-one (one-on-two?) with your kids. This is not your responsibility - life happens as it happens and you have to do the best you can in the circumstances you find yourself in. I'm sure you will do a good job of providing guidance to them on how to think for themselves without enforcing your views.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have to say I find it totaly incomprehensible how anyone can bring kids up to that age in total ignorance of their own religous beliefs. I am really staggered.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do understand that he is divorced? I assume the wife has the kids most of the time. I would think that when Lestat gets the kids they really don't get into metaphysics all too often.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly correct RJT. The question is, should I be broaching the subject with them? When they were little, who cares? Now that they're older, I still don't think I should. I mean what am I supposed to say? By the way, I think all that stuff you're learning in religious school is a bunch of crock?

Again, I'm not out to prove any points with them. I just want to know that they can think for themselves. As long as they are able to do that, I really don't care what beliefs they come to hold as long as they don't hurt anyone.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">Then I realized I was being an idiot and drop-kicked the religion out of my life. </font>

Can I ask what made you realize this?

[madnak]

It was a long time ago. Part of it was the disturbing nature of the religion. It didn't make me feel happy, it made me feel afraid. It didn't add up, and I couldn't get rid of the nagging doubt. Everyone else talked about some divine manifestation of certainty or a testimony that would come about if I read the Book of Mormon, but I never got that feeling. I felt inferior and deeply ashamed.

It happened right around when puberty hit. I think that's when the guilt became unmanageable and I really had to take a step back. I began to consider myself evil because I was told things like "think no unclean thought" but I just couldn't stop thinking about girls in "unclean" ways. I masturbated, even though I "knew it was wrong," and that was a big deal for me.

Mom was willing to talk to me openly about it. She said it was normal and lots of boys did it. I kind of doubted her at the time, because I thought I was a freak and that only bad kids masturbated. Eventually I had a discussion with her and decided that I should get out. I also began investigating around the same time and found more and more evidence that couldn't fit with the Church doctrine. I used some rationalizations as well.

It took a long time to fully let go and feel at peace with my decision.

[Lestat]

So your mom did gently unleash you from your religious chains. It sounds like she handled it very well. Probably because she's agnostic and has no strong feelings one way or the other.

I think that's noble. I'm sure she had to bite her tongue many times when you were a little kid. I know that's a hard thing for me to do!

[AceofSpades]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess it was how my kids reacted. At first, they laughed nervously thinking I must have been joking, but at the same time they seemed genuinely scared and concerned as though half expecting their dad to be struck down by God right then and there.

It didn't seem right. I shook their little world. They had never considered the possibility of there not being any god. It has always been assumed and implied for them. I'm serious when I say they seemed fearful for me (not of me). And that makes sense if they just found out their dad is going to hell. That's gotta be tough on a kid. Shaking their whole world view like that.

I just feel it could've happened more naturally. I imagined that one day they would have come up with questions on their own. This is what I would've preferred. Of course, mostly because I would've been proud of how smart they are (no offense).

I like what your wife has to say. I very much agree with her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Lestat,

As someone that recently deconverted I struggle with these issues too. There really isn't room for compromise, only one sided tolerance based on your silence. I haven't told my family (I'm twenty one, and have 5 sisters most that are younger and both parents that are christians) about my deconversion, I'm not sure that it wouldn't cause more pain than being honest is worth. The thought patterns of a lifetime are really hard to change, and I don't want to cause the pain of cognitative dissionance without the release of freedom and joy that results from the resolution of it. Recently my smart little sister was taught something that wasn't true (the information argument for creationism) and when I showed clearly how the argument was false, it rocked her world. I could see the look in her face that showed clearly she knew that either I was wrong, or the christian "learned" authority figure had given information that they should have known was false.

I guess that point I'm really trying to make is that children however smart they may be, really don't have the tools to evaluate the truth of what they are taught, or know that they should try too. They simply trust what they have been taught. Later in life maybe they will have questions, but the longer you have total belief, the worse I think the effects of having unresolvable questions about it will be. So you may have been doing them a disservice by not explaining your reasons for non-belief. Because without that, then they must fear for your soul.

Growing up, I had a friend that was taught santa was real. His parents went to great lengths to make it seem real. Even taking pictures of "santa's boots." When he finally found out, not only was he embarrassed in front of his friends but he felt a deep sense of betrayal because of the deception by people he trusted, his parents.

It is a tough decision though, so I hope you are able to decide how you should handle it.

joseph