PartyPoker Banned Software [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

sk8erboy1

07-13-2005, 01:11 PM

Great, then it seems the sites are on the same level. PokerStars have already stated the same, see below:

Not to be a fearmonger, but we're far more concerned with the likes of http://www.pokeredge.com or http://members.cox.net/starspy, both of which track far more comprehensive statistics hand by hand.

In any case, we're well aware of the fears of players regarding datamining. A certain amount of profiling will simply have to be a part of online poker (such as offered by PokerTracker.com in concert with GameTime+, or via pokeroffice.com). Profiling of players that *you* have played against personally is one thing, and we're unlikely to prohibit that. (It sounds like we're on the same page on that issue). Mass datamining and aggregating of data is something else entirely, and we are always looking ahead and formulating plans on how to best deal with such
programs should they migrate to PokerStars.

Thanks for your feedback and for giving us a heads up on this guy. We'll be ready for him.

Best Regards,

Jeff
PokerStars Support Supervisor

mmbt0ne

07-13-2005, 04:23 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
I hope everyone who uses this new PE version gets their accounts banned for being stupid enough to use it

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope money gets confiscated. You can't even begin to argue that you think it's allowable if you're going to these lengths to hide it.

RedManPlus

07-13-2005, 04:41 PM

Go ahead, guys...
Be smug while you shovel Party's rake into your jeans.

There is nothing intrinsically evil about "profiling"...
It's mostly about avoiding being ** exploited ** by expert players.

But that won't be a problem soon...
As recent crackdown is just teenie, tiny tip of iceberg.

Soon the sharks that run off the fish...
And slash poker sites bottom line...
Will be frog-marched out the door...
Just like any Vegas casino.

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Gene2x

07-13-2005, 04:58 PM

I think PokerEdge, PokerProphecy, and other similar services don't really help that much. They are more for entertainment than anything else. It is more important to know how someone is playing right now than how they played in the past.

Regarding PokerProphecy, they have a web interface too.. just requires a little more manual work to look up the players one-by-one. I don't think PP could detect that unless they take screen shots.

donger

07-13-2005, 05:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Go ahead, guys...
Be smug while you shovel Party's rake into your jeans.

There is nothing intrinsically evil about "profiling"...
It's mostly about avoiding being ** exploited ** by expert players.

But that won't be a problem soon...
As recent crackdown is just teenie, tiny tip of iceberg.

Soon the sharks that run off the fish...
And slash poker sites bottom line...
Will be frog-marched out the door...
Just like any Vegas casino.

rm+

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[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're thinking about blackjack..

RedManPlus

07-13-2005, 05:38 PM

I'm only half serious...
But the casino business model...
Has always been the same...
And, ultimately, Offshore Casinos will revert to the norm.

Casino Business Model:

"Keep typical, marginal losers playing...
Keep them having 'fun'...
And keep typical, marginal losers coming back for decades".

Please explain to me...
How successful 20 something "poker pros"...
That take approx 20% out of a zero sum game...
"Keep marginal losers coming back for decades".

In other words...
Please justify the existence of a low profile poker pro...
In the context of Party Poker's business model.

Thanks.

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donger

07-13-2005, 05:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm only half serious...
But the casino business model...
Has always been the same...
And, ultimately, Offshore Casinos will revert to the norm.

Casino Business Model:

"Keep typical, marginal losers playing...
Keep them having 'fun'...
And keep typical, marginal losers coming back for decades".

Please explain to me...
How successful 20 something "poker pros"...
That take approx 20% out of a zero sum game...
"Keep marginal losers coming back for decades".

In other words...
Please justify the existence of a low profile poker pro...
In the context of Party Poker's business model.

Thanks.

rm+

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[/ QUOTE ]

If keeping live ones in action were the #1 priority, they wouldn't spread 15/30 or any other 2/3 SB structure.

RedManPlus

07-13-2005, 06:47 PM

Sorry...

I don't understand how the present blind structure...
Significantly hurts the "average player".

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donger

07-14-2005, 12:35 AM

According to Malmuth, the 2/3 SB structure magnifies bad players' mistakes and causes live ones to go broke much faster than the 1/2 SB structure. I assume this is because they're calling legitimate raises with all kinds of trash from the SB just like they do from the BB, so they're taking junk up against a decent hand out of position a lot more frequently.

K C

07-14-2005, 03:21 AM

What the heck is a "pro" here anyway? A player who makes money at the game? That would look good: You're welcome to play here as long as you don't win /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Is it playing a lot?: You're welcome to play here as long as you don't play too often /images/graemlins/smile.gif

is it a combination of these things?: If you win don't play too often here /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Poker is quite a bt different than casinos in that players who win don't win from the house. Losing players can come and go, and some end up regulars and some don't. Successful players do stay though, and contribute a lot to the rake, thus they are highly valued.

When it comes to online players it's going to be very difficult to come up with a sensible definition of "pro." We could say that it's a player who plays poker a lot and doesn't have a "job," but then the guy is unemployed and thus has a lot of time on his hands to play poker and does pretty well at it. All we have here is gray areas.

There's no reason why sites would want to do this. A few state they don't want pros playing there in the terms but this is unenforcable, is lip service really, and the sites don't really mean it anyway since they do want these players generating rake for them.

Getting back to the issue of software keep in mind that the overwhelming majority, and I do mean overwhelming, are simply recreational players anyway. We are talking about a significant segement these days though. In balancing their concerns, poker sites will have to consider the cut in rake that they are willing to take to promote their cause of not wanting central db programs. And sure as the sun rises each day it will cost them a good chunk of change to pursue this. We'll have to see at the end of the day if they feel this is worth it.

KC

excession

07-14-2005, 08:23 AM

the cut in rake that they are willing to take to promote their cause of not wanting central db programs

Tiny. Party have clearly done a risk/reward analysis on this. PE was aggressively targetting Party users and advertising itself as a 'must-have' for them. Most PokerEdge users won't quit to go to another site anyway as none of the other big sites will permit/encourage PE variants either. They have figured that the few PE users that do go elsewhere will be more tha made up for by the rake generated by other players who are happy that there play isn't being tracked 24/7 and data on it sold to others. They are almost certainly correct. Besides Party get the kudos from actually enforcing their TOS about data sharing..

Now banning PT or similar would be a different kettle of fish. PT is used by many more people than PE. It has a wide variety of uses. It isn't currently in breach of TOS. The other big sites (esp. PS) have confirmed that they are happy to support PT and would therefore welcome PT refugees with open arms..
If your commnents referred to a PT ban I would agree with them (mind you not that party couldn't afford it anyway), but it seems to me likely that the big sites have drawn a line in the sand against commercial centralised mining of their player base (who knows they may want to sell such data as a 'premier' add-on later themselves).

That's fine - just so everyone knows where they stand..

K C

07-14-2005, 08:51 AM

Well first off I would expect software users targetted by this to be a significant not tiny proportion of Party's business. It's not so much the amount of users it's how much they play and how many tables they play at on average.

As far as "none of the other big sites" allowing this sort of thing, only Party has actually disallowed them, and we might want to include Stars as well if that guy does represent the view of the site. There are several other large sites where users can use this sort of thing, in addition to the smaller sites.

There still is nothing in Party's T+C that would prohibit the use of this software, even under the most liberal of interpretations. This is a very lame attempt by them to justify this action.

Essentially, users on Party who object to being profiled shouldn't rest so easy, as a lot more profiling goes on with PT collectively. Contrary to what many may think, it does not require very many hands at all to get a very good read on a player's tendencies. In fact large databases are actually less reliable, since you don't want this stuff too dated due to changing habits that may occur.

The spook associated with large central databases is more smoke and mirrors than anything else. The appeal of this sort of thing sounds great but there's no real reason why we need them. Of course if a site doesn't object, and the cutoff as far as hands kept in the db is kept to a reasonable level, then this does offer a conveient way to store the data.

Getting back to Party and PE, a lot of the damage to their rake will probably be collateral rather than direct, as users of products such as PT and others who are less informed than ourselves may leave out of fear or confusion that they may be targetted, either now or in the near future.

Alternatives exist now to PE which are of a similar nature and can be used on virtually any site. While many may be unaware of this, trust me it's just a matter of time before this changes, and I'm speaking here as a major player in the game /images/graemlins/smile.gif

We'll have to see how this comes out really. Central databases are such a small issue here that it would not be a problem to market similarly valuable services which would be maintained at a personal level, at least at sites where this is a problem. From the feel I'm getting here, those opposing these large db's are pretty outspoken and not small in mumber either. While this is curious, as we would expect this concern to translate into demand for the products, this is a very easy problem to work around when it's all said and done.

KC

guppie

07-18-2005, 02:12 PM

All poker sites prohibit collusion.
PE uses a database culled from the experiences of all its users.
This data could not be aquired by any one individual alone.
Admit it, PE users are colluding.

BUT, is this collusion different than the collusion between all those who have read books on how to play poker? Or the participants in a poker forum? Or people discussing poker with each other?

PP says PE is banned but PT is ok. Efforts are already underway to combine individual PT databases for mutual use by the participants. How long before PT is banned? The shared database certainly gives players an advantage that they could not aquire individually.

Will PP ban anyone who has read books by Malmuth or Sklansky or others? Many believe these authors provide valuable information they could not aquire on their own which gives them an edge over the competition.

If PP was serious about this they would stop writing to disc the hand histories of observed hands. They would write only those hands in which the player participated. Of course, if they did that, many programs such as HandGrabber would become immediately available. And why allow unlimited observation? Why not kick us off the tables after 2 minutes of observation?

The rules also say playing professionally (for a living) is prohibited. Will anyone cashing out more than $500 per week be banned? How about a tax on good players to subsidize the poor players, making the experience more enjoyable for the average player?

OrianasDaad

07-18-2005, 02:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How about a tax on good players to subsidize the poor players, making the experience more enjoyable for the average player?

[/ QUOTE ]

Socialist propaganda in a ruthless meritocracy.

guppie

07-18-2005, 05:50 PM

Exactly, but that is the logic being used and the direction that PP is headed.

BabyJesus

07-19-2005, 02:07 PM

I'm not exactly sure how PokerEdge works but..... From what I understand it's a collection of users that all pool their database from a single source. If they're getting the hands from the files in each user files, which would be the easiest way to do it, this is a problem for anyone using the software. Not sure if everyone knows this but that file is written as you play your hand. So if you open the file while you're in a hand, you'll see the hand history in there for the hand you're playing right now.

The big problem is that PokerEdge could be sending that information (hole cards in particular) somewhere else. Have a program receive that info then display people that use PokerEdge's holecards to them. Now we can all agree that being able to do that is a HUGE advantage, and cheating. So people that use this product are at risk by the people that make PokerEdge, they could easily do an update on their software then proceed to rape all the players that use their software.

I think we all can agree that this is bad for PartyPoker and everyone who uses the software.

I'm not saying that this is happening now but it is a potential risk involved in allowing people to use software like PokerEdge. The difference between PokerEdge and similiar products like PokerTracker is that PokerTracker is stored locally on your computer and the way the imports work they are done on a timer instead of as you're playing the hand.

duke44

07-19-2005, 04:07 PM

PokerTracker could easily do the exact same thing... You are suggesting that they couldn't. It would take them an hour to write the code and make a new update. If you are going to say the sky is falling, please be fair.

In fact, if Microsoft wanted to own online Poker they could make a Windows update to do so...

Singling out PokerEdge for this is unfair, it's not established companies that Party has to fear... If anything, companies such as PE, PP, and PT that are making money are the last of Party's concern. There are people that hack computers for a living, and getting people to download a small program that says it does one thing, but really does another (unnoticed in the background), isn't that hard.

driller

07-20-2005, 11:07 AM

Let me see if I have this right...

PP and the others are going to look at their high volume players who are winners and ban them from playing. I wonder how much of their revenue will be gone in one fell swoop if they did that all at once.

If PP did that, Pokerstars and the others would be overjoyed.

driller

07-20-2005, 11:12 AM

What about allowing you to change your screen name more often than 6 months?

RedManPlus

07-20-2005, 01:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not exactly sure how PokerEdge works but...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were smart...
You would have stopped at this point.

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RedManPlus

07-20-2005, 02:25 PM

guppie,

You think through a few interesting issues...
But you cannot even begin to compare...
What is generally known as "collusion" (team play at same table)...
And "profiling" (buying information on your opponents playing style).

It's a total, glaring fallacy...
Like saying tax evasion and murder as equally bad...
Because they are both illegal.

On the other hand...
You've pointed out how arbitrary and illogical Party Poker is...
In terms of TOS enforcement.

They say Poker Edge banned...
But Poker Tracker is OK.

Only one (1) real difference between them.

PT is ** local ** database (but could be bought from 3rd party)...
PE uses ** centralized ** database.

Only difference.

The guys at Poker Edge...
Totally f*cked up their initial response to Party's crackdown...
Like a bunch of Keystone Cops.

But they have lots of cash... and have merged with another firm.

The 2nd response should be to keep their clients supplied...
With a "Poker Tracker" data base...
That is updated daily with the data you want.

They could even insist clients install PT...
And the new service would be better...
Faster, more targeted, data more recent.

So what Party has REALLY done...
Is created a slippery slope...
Which will eventually lead to banning Poker Tracker...
Because there will be no way of distinguishing...
Commercial PT databases from personal PT data bases.

But Party doesn't care...
Because the long term goal (12-24 months)...
Is to ban the top 2-3% winning "pro" players.

It's inevitable.

The pros DOUBLE the "real rake"
For your "average player".

The maybe $50,000,000+/year they pull out...
Would go straight to Party's bottom line...
And the fishies would not get busted out by the sharks...
And keep on playing MUCH longer.

rm+

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guppie

07-20-2005, 05:09 PM

Very well said and I agree that collusion, in its normal usage, refers to a much more serious offence, that of multiple players at the same table working in concert. PP has taken a completely literal interpretation of the word and created a bigger problem for itself than anyone else.

wdbaker

07-21-2005, 06:12 PM

I think there are a couple of things they(PP etc...) are looking for and trying to do right now.

1. They are tryng to look like they are on top of things whether they are in fact or not, need to keep the herd calm...

2. Poker edge and others give you access to a library of hand histories from others, not just your own. Whether you like it or not that sounds like cheating, might as well have 1000's of people pearing over your shoulder and giving you access to info you shouldn't and wouldn't normally have.

3. They also do something that has appearance of being against the law(extortion maybe...) by telling clients that they won't give out their data if you pay our monthly fee, otherwise you have no way to opt out of this dastardly plan for which you didn't knowingly opt into in the first place.

4. PP and others specifically say no AI, which means bots and could mean other realtime devices that tell you what to do etc... I think there is a difference between that and looking at your hand histories after the game to improve your play(PT and others like it...) the HUD's are in the grey zone as the info is real time

5. The verification Pop-ups are a waste of time in that no one who has a bot with a lot of money riding on it is going to let it run alone to be caught with out supervision by a pop-up, they don't in the stock market and won't hear at the higher levels.

This all started out with PT remember way back when and everyone was thrilled, you got your own hand histories and could anylize them to your hearts content and those you played against, now look where we are...

GT+,PV etc... are in the grayzone

We are'nt happy with with the worm to catch the occasional fish or the shotgun shell to take down a deer to feed our family, now it's nets for the fish and mac10's and uzi's...

The train has derailed and it is up to the poker places (or better yet an independent player organization) to fix what they started, it's their info that is driving this

I personally like having an edge on others because I've studied and know my game, I don't like it when others have an edge on me because they bought my data which they didn't play against me to get and have loaded it into god knows what kind of weapon to try and take me out...

Done with rant...
Flame away /images/graemlins/grin.gif

One Street at a Time
wdbaker Denver, Co

RedManPlus

07-22-2005, 11:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]

1. They are tryng to look like they are on top of things whether they are in fact or not, need to keep the herd calm...

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point...
Party has a strategy to maintain market dominance...
As a public company with access to almost unlimited cash.

They are now in the business of keeping shareholders happy...
And they are going to bring in a lot of very smart people...
To work on strategic planning.

Only 2 things matter:

(1) Maintaining/building market share.
(2) Pumping up the bottom line.

A good way of looking at your activities...
Is to ask yourself...
Am I making money for Party shareholders?
Perhaps in an indirect way?

Or am I just taking money out of a zero sum game?

If so...
Then Party has a fiduciary reponsibility to get rid of you...
Just as any Vegas casino would frog-march you out the door.

But they gotta go slow...
Because poker industry visibility is hazy...
And the best strategy is not necessarily clear.

The online casino business...
Is not about "fair play" and "sportsmanship"...
It's about underground, tax evaded, laundered money.

And it is definitely a gas.

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Shakespeare

07-22-2005, 02:26 PM

I don’t use pokeredge, I have used Pokerprophecy. Im just making a loose comparison to data retrieved from pokeredge/pokerprophecy and data from EPSN covered poker events.

I use the word "data" instead of "information", as the two are very different. The way I interpret data is my information, it may not be the same information that you gain from analyzing the data.

guppie

07-27-2005, 01:39 AM

I did not receive an e-mail but did get a warning pop-up window that I was running illegal software. I closed, uninstalled, and deleted all remaining files of PE immediately. I was running Zone Alarm and McAfee Personal Firewall and a router.

I can get the same info from PT and the HUD from Player View. I will be using those from now on.

Suggestion to PE developers: I assume PP's only objection to PE is the shared DB. I would still pay for PE if it used only my local DB because the interface is convenient, reliable and flexible, much more so than PT and PV. How about an optional local DB version of PE if PP says that would be acceptable?

guppie

07-29-2005, 03:42 PM

I got a pop-up window a few days ago saying I was using illegal software. I immediately uninstalled PE and deleted all remaining files.

Today I get an e-mail saying the same thing. I replied via e-mail that PE had been completely removed from my system and to let me know if that was their concern or if they were referring to something else. I have not heard back from them.

I'm about to call them now.

Sifmole

07-29-2005, 04:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I got a pop-up window a few days ago saying I was using illegal software. I immediately uninstalled PE and deleted all remaining files.

Today I get an e-mail saying the same thing. I replied via e-mail that PE had been completely removed from my system and to let me know if that was their concern or if they were referring to something else. I have not heard back from them.

I'm about to call them now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes -- they are worried about the new version of PE that you are running which has the fake names.

K C

07-29-2005, 04:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The big problem is that PokerEdge could be sending that information (hole cards in particular) somewhere else. Have a program receive that info then display people that use PokerEdge's holecards to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't view people's hole cards in a hand until the hand is completed. PE isn't configured to hack PP's database, and that would be required here. You aren't going to be able to configure it to do so either. This program is no more "cheating" than any other profiling software out there.

KC

RedManPlus

07-29-2005, 04:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Yes -- they are worried about the new version of PE that you are running which has the fake names.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why don't they just say so?

Why is the TOS ridiculously vague and all-encompassing?

Why don't they post a page on their site listing "banned" commercial software?

The owner bullsh*ts to the press...
Says they have 100 people working on surveillance...
But they can't come up with a list of 5-10 programs?

Why do they not respond to emails?

I reported suspected collusion to Party last week...
And got no response.

Actually...
Since they don't give a sh*t about anything except profits...
And the customers have no legal rights...
This is totally predictable.

Anyone who would put than 1-2% of their net worth...
Into an offshore poker account...
Must be in denial about a whole lotta things.

Though it must be a great comfort...
That some folks in Australia...
Have been paid to look the other way.

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AnilK

07-29-2005, 08:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

You can't view people's hole cards in a hand until the hand is completed.
KC

[/ QUOTE ]

Your statement is false: at Party Poker and skins, the hole cards are written to disk *before* they are even displayed on the screen.

PokerAce

07-30-2005, 02:13 AM

Only a split second before they show on screen.

guppie

07-30-2005, 11:41 AM

The standard casino model is different for poker than, for example, slot machines.

With slot machines the casino wants to keep marginal losers coming back for decades, allowing only enough winners to attract the marginal losers. The more people lose, the more profit the casino makes.

With poker, the casino wants to keep PLAYERS coming back for decades, winners or losers. The more people playing, the more profit the casino makes. The casino doesn't care if they win or lose as long as the "pros" don't discourage too many people from sitting down to play. And as long as players feel they have a fair opportunity to win, many will be willing to play even against pros. Players fear being cheated, not being outplayed.

guppie

07-30-2005, 12:26 PM

It was the new version (with no name, not a fake name) that PP detected the first time. ALL versions of PE had been completely removed from my system for a few days when I received the e-mail saying I was using illegal software. I'm not even using the remote version.

99% of the reason I used PE was its speed, flexibility, reliability and ease of use for table selection. The HUD and pretty much the same info can be had (more slowly and with a little more effort) using other software such as PlayerView and PokerAce. PE had less influence on my play decisions than PlayerView or PokerAce because I'm more interested in how my opponent is playing NOW than how he played last month.

It is important to note that PP was unaware, or ignored my use, of PE for months while I was making deposits to my account and losing. Once I became proficient and began making one or more withdrawals a day, PP was on my case within a week.

While PP has not replied to my e-mails requesting a specific yea or nay regarding the software I continue to use, (nor any one else's apparantly) they are still allowing my withdrawals. Any time my account exceeds $1,000, I draw it down to $500. Just to be on the safe side I keep my stack in Neteller. This has the added benefit of allowing just one bankroll for all the sites I play instead of one for each site.

grinin

07-30-2005, 04:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and began making one or more withdrawals a day

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you doing this?

This is bad form.

You realize every time you make a deposit or withdrawal it is costing the site money. It is very likely that if you continue this behavior (daily) they will be looking for any reason to get rid of you. It is unlikely that your funds are at risk in any circumstance but you are risking your ability to continue to play there. In fact it is probably not because you "became proficient" but because you are causing all of these transaction fees that raised a flag in the first place.

guppie

07-30-2005, 10:20 PM

Good point. Any idea what would be normal/unexceptional?

rabbitlover

07-30-2005, 11:03 PM

Your withdrawals don't have a damn thing to do with it.
PP and other sites are going to do what they can (everyone can argue whether it's too little or too much) to protect the integrity of their games.

Tell you what, now that you don't have the software info on screen, play w/o anything, and see if you are still as "proficient". If so, you learned; now keep learning w/o the software.

GL

MentalNomad

08-02-2005, 02:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It is important to note that PP was unaware, or ignored my use, of PE for months while I was making deposits to my account and losing. Once I became proficient and began making one or more withdrawals a day, PP was on my case within a week.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. PP wasn't smacking anybody for months. Then, they started smacking lots of people -- everyone discovered by the automated tools which look for the target software.

The timing, relative to your win/loss, is irrelevant. As always, a poker room doesn't care which individuals win or lose, as long as they're paying rake and people keep coming back for more. Anything that threatens that (profitable) status quo is a target.

wdbaker

08-02-2005, 04:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The big problem is that PokerEdge could be sending that information (hole cards in particular) somewhere else. Have a program receive that info then display people that use PokerEdge's holecards to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't view people's hole cards in a hand until the hand is completed. PE isn't configured to hack PP's database, and that would be required here. You aren't going to be able to configure it to do so either. This program is no more "cheating" than any other profiling software out there.

KC

[/ QUOTE ]

People are not getting it... all of the HUDS that use PT are getting there info real time, if not they are dumb cause it's easy to do.

What party is specifically upset about is

1. extortion(I'm not a lawer so this may be the wrong term) of their players. If you don't sign up with PE then your HH info will be released to the others purchasing the program but if your paying them they keep will keep it secret.

2. Gangs are forming and sharing there data, it's like having 1000's of people looking over your shoulder giving you info on the particular person you are playing right now.

PT doesn't do this, it only collects information from games that you have actually sat in. Its a tool that can be misused though if you data mine or buy or trade HH with others.

Nuff said

One Street at a Time
wdbaker Denver, Co

graydot

08-02-2005, 10:05 PM

I was under the impression that since all this data is public and everyone has access to hand histories that its not illegal to have the information.

I think the issue is that they want to prevent cheating and people having an advantage by using software, which i am okay with, and even encourage them to prevent software.

I myself wouldnt want to be playing again 8 players who use pt+odds calculator, as they would have an obvious advantage over me.

guppie

08-03-2005, 01:12 PM

Here is the email I sent today which includes the email to which I refered earlier.
=========================
You have closed my account for, you claim, using a bot. I do not use a bot nor do I have a bot on my computer. I sent the email below requesting information so that I could delete whatever software you objected to. Your people now tell me they have no record of that email. I am resending it again so that I may delete the software to prevent any similar situation with other poker sites.

I attempted to be straightforward with you and only ask that you be the same with me.

Your email said "Please note that PartyPoker.com's Terms and Conditions strictly prohibit use of such programs and, in conjunction with our client, we request that you immediately stop using the program." All the software I use at PP or any other poker site was listed below so that I could delete the offending software. I used no other poker software at the time of your email or since.

I have attached a screen shot verifying that this email was actually sent and received by you on 7/29/05.

Sincerely,

xxxxxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxxxx@sbcglobal.net [mailto:xxxxxxxxx@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 10:42 AM
To: alerts@partypoker.com
Subject: prohibited software

I received a vague pop-up warning a few days ago and, after a little research, assumed it refered to Poker-Edge. I uninstalled the program and deleted all remaining files. Now you've sent me this e-mail, also vague, implying I'm still using a prohibited program. I do not know to which software you are refering. Is it the now-deleted Poker-Edge or some other program? Please be specific so I can comply with your requirements.

You have been specific about some software, such as Poker Tracker, that is acceptable. Without specific information about the software to which you are objecting I am at a great disadvantage. I do not wish to violate your rules but I also do not wish to delete software that is allowed.

The current software I have installed:
Poker Tracker
PokerAce HUD
TexasCalculatem
PlayerView
Holdem Inspector 2
HandGrabber
Poker Inspector

After extensive research, I conclude that I am using no software that, in any way, violates your rules. However, if you determine that any of these programs violate your rules, please advise me immediately and specifically.

Thank you,

xxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: info@partypoker.com [mailto:info@partypoker.com]
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 6:54 AM
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxx@earthlink.net
Subject: Use of Prohibited Software

Dear xxxxxxxxx,

We are committed to detecting and preventing software programs which are designed to enable you to have an unfair advantage over other players playing at PartyPoker.com.

This message is to inform you that we have come across an instance wherein your account was involved in using such program. Please note that PartyPoker.com's Terms and Conditions strictly prohibit use of such programs and, in conjunction with our client, we request that you immediately stop using the program. In Line with our Terms and Conditions, we have flagged your account and will continue to review your account activity and game play for use of such programs. If we detect that you continue to use such programs we will have no choice, but to bar you from our site, permanently close your account and any funds in your account will be deemed forfeited. Please see our Terms and Conditions for further information.

Regards,

Investigations Team for Poker
alerts@partypoker.com
http://www.partypoker.com

============================
They did tell me it was not PokerTracker, PokerAce or Texas Calculatem that they objected to. They would not say what they did object to. I managed with great difficulty to speak with a supervisor who told me they found a bot on my computer. She would not say what the name of the bot was.

I do not use a bot and don't have a bot on my computer. They won't tell me what bot it is that they think I have because it might give me an advantage. The fact they already think I have that advantage doesn't seem to be illogical to them.

*TT*

08-03-2005, 07:03 PM

offer them complete investigative access to your hard drive. Its easy using Remote administration in Windows Xp.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

Buccaneer

08-03-2005, 10:57 PM

Did they take your money?

Dex

08-04-2005, 12:33 PM

Wow, RedManPlus, you really like ellipses. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

guppie

08-04-2005, 09:34 PM

Yes, they kept over $600 of my money. That was the least of my concerns and I did not check until you asked.

I am more concerned that there really is some software running on my computer that they object to and of which I have no knowledge. Any such program is most certainly not working in my interests.

I find it interesting that they allowed me to make a $400 deposit knowing they were going to seize my funds. That looks a lot like fraud to me.

guppie

08-04-2005, 09:39 PM

Good idea. I sent them an email offering full admin priviledges to my harddrive, requesting that they delete the offending software. I told them they don't have to tell me what the software is, if they feel its that big a deal.

I do not wish to have any software running on my computer without my knowledge or permission, especially if it is poker related. For all I know, some program is giving out my downcard info.

guppie

08-05-2005, 01:11 PM

After three phone calls and six emails I still have no response from PP. I've offered to let them delete the offending program from my computer without telling me what they did. I've insisted, truthfully, that there was no poker bot running on my computer no matter what their software is telling them but they can delete whatever it is they think they saw.

Just guessing department: I do have a macro that scrolls through my favorite websites and I have run it while playing poker. It has nothing to do with poker and is no more objectionable than an automatic page turner for a book. It is so innocuous that I didn't even think of it until today. But... maybe that's what they saw and thought it was a poker bot. Since they won't say what they saw I am at a great disadvantage but I do know there was no poker bot running.

So, take care when using any kind of automation even if it has nothing to do with poker. This includes Word and Excell macros, C++ or any other tool you may use for tasks other than poker.

illogical

08-05-2005, 01:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The current software I have installed:
Poker Tracker
PokerAce HUD
TexasCalculatem
PlayerView
Holdem Inspector 2
HandGrabber
Poker Inspector

[/ QUOTE ]

I could be wrong, but I think Holdem Inspector/Poker Inspector (same program?) might be the cause of your problems. This program is banned by party from what I heard. Poker Inspector is not a bot but all one has to do to turn it into a bot is write up a little autohotkey script. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

guppie

08-05-2005, 03:34 PM

Ok, thanks. I'll delete HoldemInspector2 to avoid any problems with other sites. If PP had just said so, I would have deleted it sooner. I do not believe, however, that HoldemInspector2 was running at any time between the first pop-up warning and the closure of my account. It still may be something else that they object to. Unfortunately, the only way a player can be certain to comply with their rules is to use a computer on which NOTHING else is running or even loaded.

Looks like I erred. It should have said Stud Inspector, not Poker Inspector.

Ironic: I seldom used Holdem Inspector in its original and never in any altered form. I'm doing better on other sites than I ever did on PP and made up the $600 in one day.

Good riddence PP. You did me a favor.

K C

08-06-2005, 02:45 PM

Anyone else but me bothered by this atrocious and arrogant customer service? I can't imagine why anyone would ever want to play at this crap hole really. They will get what's coming to them in the end, and I've said all along they will rue the day they started this mess if they had the intelligence to grasp it that is. With the several thousand active players ending up leaving eventually plus the loss of Empire to another network the take won't be anywhere near as good, and they aren't helping themselves by treating customers like garbage.

It's sad to see people booted from here without really telling them what the hell the real reason is or what is and isn't allowed. Believe me though you're better off without them and they did you a favor.

KC

dark_horse

08-06-2005, 05:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and began making one or more withdrawals a day

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you doing this?

This is bad form.

You realize every time you make a deposit or withdrawal it is costing the site money. It is very likely that if you continue this behavior (daily) they will be looking for any reason to get rid of you. It is unlikely that your funds are at risk in any circumstance but you are risking your ability to continue to play there. In fact it is probably not because you "became proficient" but because you are causing all of these transaction fees that raised a flag in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad form. Screw them. If they aren't being clear with us as to what they object to, how they know what software we have on our hard drives, and continue with their poor customer service and threaten us with seizing our funds with no legal recourse because they're not in the US, then I'm not going to keep more than a couple of buyins on the site. They are doing it to themselves by creating a paranoid environment. Until all this is settled down I'm keeping most of my money in Neteller. If I have a good day, my winnings are being withdrawn.