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View Full Version : Major points I have against the Christian Religion...(and my belief)


DonkNitUP
04-15-2006, 09:42 PM
1. Our senses deceive us. I think this is pretty obvious. Therefore anything we learned and "know" especially from someone else could actually be false. When it comes to the Bible (or any other religious book), we weren't around back then. I am pretty sure God didnt WRITE the Bible, and even if he did, how many times have it gotten passed down, translated into other languages and everything else. Over the years the church has been corrupted. I am no history major thats for sure, but what happened to the Bible when it got translated to English? I mean King James was a King, Ive heard speculations that there are alot of things he could have added/deleted. What about people that could buy pardons in Old England and could kill people because you go to heaven by wealth not by faith. Ah yes, it was Martin Luther (among others im sure) who said you go to heaven by faith not by wealth. Things finally changed in the church to allow "faith" go to heaven. What happened to all the people before this time period? The people who thought they were going to heaven because of wealth? THe people who were good going to hell because of them being poor?! We wont even talk about the Crusades!!
Main point is this though: I dont want this to be about history... im just saying our sense our deceiving so why are we relying on something that happened a long time ago that has been changed over and over and over again.

2. Free will vs. Fate-- which is obviously talked about in two other posts. MY main point however is what i posted in one of them: We can not possibly maintain complete free will. If God is an external being that knows the past present and future that is fine. We can still be left with our choices and he just knows the outcome of them. However, in the Bible if he kills people with as in Noahs Ark, 10 commandments, or wherever else.. then clearly this is not complete free will. If he knows how we die, thats one thing to be argued about free will, if he kills us... thats not free will.
3. Saying God is all good is also quite confusing. This is brought up in another post, however: if we say God is all good that means there is no part of bad in him. (If I made a 100 on my test, i am all knowing on the test). He is all good and has no bad... so then why was there a Lucifer? God obviously created EVERYTHING. God created lucifer. If God was all good, he could have no ounce of bad in him. Lucifer is bad. God must have some bad in him. Yea you can argue God gave Lucifer free will but wait... we said God is all good. He can not possibly have any ounce of bad in him to give him free will! we cant say we have a choice, and then at the same time say God is all good for reasons i just stated. Those are contradictory IMO.

4. People unknown to the word of God. Christians say that if you were not given an opportunity to have God in your heart, you are treated as if you were a baby and therefore you are going to Heaven. Ok that part is needed for this:

Now lets think about this as an observer to different regions of the world: If I am growing u in Italy near the Vatican and Im surrounded by 1 million catholics. My parents are catholic, i was raise a catholic all my life, wtf do you think i am going to be? Same as muslim. I am growing up in Iraq. Everyone surrounding me is Muslim, wtf am i going to be. Sure you have a choice, you can see the other religions on tv, you have heard about them, but come on.. we are acting as observers.. are you really going to change and be the 1 person looked upon as an idiot? I think not. You are raised this way and to a point you are brainwashed to think what people around you believe.
Main point: family affects religion (no i dont need 1 million people replying saying they are atheist and parents are christian. You are growing up in america and ultimately have a choice. I would have liked for you to go to afghanistan 10 years ago as a woman and raised and see if what you believed)

5. (i guess this is a point and a question) People in heaven, loved ones in hell. Sure God give you ultimate happiness in Heaven. Sure you get everything you wanted and celebrate or whatever they do up there. You have no problems, no worries no nothing, just eternal happiness. Correct me if i am wrong (because i might be) but dont people in heaven remember their lives? remember their loved ones? their families on earth? I mean yea i know everyone in heaven is a family but do you see what im saying?... lets say someone you know is living on earth and doing bad things. are u watching this person from heaven? are u watching this person go to hell? the person u care about is going to hell?? i mean yea i guess God could brainwash you and youd forget about that person but what if you dont? are you having all happiness with that person in hell?

What I find crazyyyyyyyyyy...
1. miracles- wtf?! "its a miracle you didnt die because of blah blah blah" well im pretty sure the same amt of "miracles" happen to muslims, jews, atheists, whatever else. If Heaven is eternal happiness, shouldnt be say that sucks man, sorry you had to live, i wish you wouldve died.
Which leads me to my next ironic thing:
2. birth-death... when someone is born everyone is so happy. To me following the christian way.. it seems like people shouldnt really be happy about a birth as much as death but obviously this isnt true. A newborn baby is going to live a life full of sin. Someone that dies is going to have eternal happiness. People should be celebrating death instead of mourning. You say, they arent mourning the person that died, they are mourning the loved ones. Well why are the loved ones mourning? Shouldnt they be happy as well? Is it not selfish to think of yourself and wish that person was still with you?? I mean they are having a great time in heaven, what r u thinking?
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What I believe:
There is a God. Where, what, who, when why, how, thats not up to me to judge or say. All I know is that there is a God.
We must define what God is-- God is a noun- a person, place thing, or idea. He/she, it.. whatever.. created us. I think by this simplest definition everyone should accept some sort of God-- not to worship or whatever, but the fact that something created something.

Ok thats all im sure no1 read it all.. lol.. and sorry about errors

Cliff notes: I dont believe in the Christian God
/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Bigdaddydvo
04-15-2006, 11:11 PM
Happy Easter.

BluffTHIS!
04-15-2006, 11:13 PM
Why don't you just use the search function for all these religious questions you are starting threads about, including in the archives? Assuming of course that you aren't just a reincarnation of a previous poster account who has already debated all this stuff, which is probably the case.

DonkNitUP
04-15-2006, 11:16 PM
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Why don't you just use the search function for all these religious questions you are starting threads about, including in the archives? Assuming of course that you aren't just a reincarnation of a previous poster account who has already debated all this stuff, which is probably the case.

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Most of what i said wasnt in the form of a question. As for the other posts, if noone ask questions whats the point of a discussion forum?

DonkNitUP
04-15-2006, 11:58 PM
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Assuming of course that you aren't just a reincarnation of a previous poster account who has already debated all this stuff, which is probably the case.

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And actually, I am a previous poster, i let my friend log on one time and i changed the password but forgot it and for some reason i couldnt get a new password. If the mods banned my other account for some reason please PM me and let me know and i will unfortunately stop posting. I usually just view the SNG forum.
I just wrote what i felt. I am more than willing to change my opinions, and thats really why i write and ask questions about this, so i can find out what others think about this. i am sorry if i offended you or any one else. those are just ideas that i think and wanted a discussion on them

pilliwinks
04-16-2006, 07:26 AM
Sounds to me like you believe in your parents, unless you think someone (something?) else made you /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Personally I don't find the creator bit at all persuasive as a reason for believing in a God (the ontological argument). I don't really go for the teleological argument either (what are we here for, must be some reason/purpose). I do go for the 'there is a loving God who forgives you and wants to get to know you better' argument, because that has been my experience.

But to take up the points you mentioned (it is Easter after all):

1 I wouldn't believe in the Bible if ALL it had were claims to historical accuracy. You are wise to be cautious about old texts. That doesn't mean it is all bunk. Read it. Figure it out for yourself.

2. Free will and fate are scarecely core Christian doctrines. You'll find as many opinions on that subject in the Church as out of it!

3. This is an old one (Google Manicheans or the problem of evil). There are many different theodicies (ways to reconcile a good god with a bad world). Some are a bit legalistic and unconvincing. I personally put it in the 'wait and see' basket. It is certain that there are constraints on what can occur that we don't know about, and some of these may well explain why bad things were so. Faith is one of the primary requirements for belief in God. This is one example of that. Not trusting that God is good in an evil world is the definition of lack of faith. Nobody said it was easy.

4. Again, this is scarcely a core Christian belief - you'll find any number of different takes on this one in various churches, including "God loves everyone, Hell is bunk". To address your concern, though, let us have faith for a moment and pretend that God is as Christ said. Christ did not condemn Gentiles - the Roman centurian is praised as having greater faith than his disciples! Sure, there are many who will never hear, but if you believe in a good God, don't you trust him to deal with that justly? And if you are lucky enough to not be an Afghan woman, what is your excuse for not believing?

5. I like this one. Put on your faith hat again for a moment, and think about a good God. Do you think that he gets pleasure from suffering? The bible says surprisingly little about heaven, but the two repeated features are joy and justice. Personally I don't find those incompatible.

You are not the only one to find our attitudes to death crazy. The apostle Paul was clearly looking forward to dying, though he felt that there were worthwhile things to do before then. Almost all of the disciples were apparently voluntarily martyred, so it seems they had no great objection to being killed. Jesus' first recorded words after the resurrection are: "why are you crying?". Christians still feel loss - we are only human. But we have a source of joy that compensates - hang around some wards for the terminally ill if you want to see this in action.

Nobody would mourn a birth, though! The whole point of Easter is that we are forgiven. It would be a pretty poor parent who resents their child because they make smelly diapers, and God is the perfect parent.

DonkNitUP
04-16-2006, 10:49 AM
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Sounds to me like you believe in your parents, unless you think someone (something?) else made you /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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No because someone created then and someone created them and so on and so on.

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1 I wouldn't believe in the Bible if ALL it had were claims to historical accuracy. You are wise to be cautious about old texts. That doesn't mean it is all bunk. Read it. Figure it out for yourself.

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No, it doesnt have ALL historical claims, it has other points too. But we agree that the senses lie? Why should I read the the Bible and not the Quran or anything other religious book. To gain full knowledge and have an understanding of your personal religion, should you not read all the religious books and then conclude on which one you want to believe. I have definately not read any religious books, but I dont say I have a true great religion. I dont see how someone can say their religion is best if they dont know what the other religions are about.

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2. Free will and fate are scarecely core Christian doctrines. You'll find as many opinions on that subject in the Church as out of it!

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Im not sure what you mean here. Are you saying free will and fate arguments arent important in the Christian beliefs? How could they not be? Isn't free will the basis for everything? (adam and eve)

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3. This is an old one (Google Manicheans or the problem of evil). There are many different theodicies (ways to reconcile a good god with a bad world). Some are a bit legalistic and unconvincing. I personally put it in the 'wait and see' basket. It is certain that there are constraints on what can occur that we don't know about, and some of these may well explain why bad things were so. Faith is one of the primary requirements for belief in God. This is one example of that. Not trusting that God is good in an evil world is the definition of lack of faith. Nobody said it was easy.

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I didnt say God wasnt good. I said he cant be ALL good because he had this "idea" of evil.

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4. Again, this is scarcely a core Christian belief - you'll find any number of different takes on this one in various churches, including "God loves everyone, Hell is bunk". To address your concern, though, let us have faith for a moment and pretend that God is as Christ said. Christ did not condemn Gentiles - the Roman centurian is praised as having greater faith than his disciples! Sure, there are many who will never hear, but if you believe in a good God, don't you trust him to deal with that justly? And if you are lucky enough to not be an Afghan woman, what is your excuse for not believing?

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Yes i do believe in a good God. We assumed there was a CHristian God though. We arent here to judge anyone according to Christians HOWEVER it says Put no other God before Him. I am pretty Afghan women do that. A good God would see their position and have sympathy for them.

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5. I like this one. Put on your faith hat again for a moment, and think about a good God. Do you think that he gets pleasure from suffering? The bible says surprisingly little about heaven, but the two repeated features are joy and justice. Personally I don't find those incompatible...Nobody would mourn a birth, though! The whole point of Easter is that we are forgiven. It would be a pretty poor parent who resents their child because they make smelly diapers, and God is the perfect parent.

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I dont think I said mourn a birth. I meant be happier with a death instead of with a birth. I found it ironic

pilliwinks
04-17-2006, 01:11 AM
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Sounds to me like you believe in your parents, unless you think someone (something?) else made you /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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No because someone created then and someone created them and so on and so on.

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Only kidding. I understand the ontological argument, but although I believe God is the ultimate cause, I don't find it a persuasive argument. There are other possible ways of ending up with us, as any atheist will tell you.

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1 I wouldn't believe in the Bible if ALL it had were claims to historical accuracy. You are wise to be cautious about old texts. That doesn't mean it is all bunk. Read it. Figure it out for yourself.

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Why should I read the the Bible and not the Quran or anything other religious book ... I dont see how someone can say their religion is best if they dont know what the other religions are about.

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Bravo. Get into it. I have not read every religious text, but I think I have a nodding acquaintance with the major faiths, and would recommend that for anyone. Of course, you don't necessarily need to visit every lunatic asylum to know what constitutes good sense. Can't hurt though.

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2. Free will and fate are scarecely core Christian doctrines. You'll find as many opinions on that subject in the Church as out of it!

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Im not sure what you mean here. Are you saying free will and fate arguments arent important in the Christian beliefs? How could they not be? Isn't free will the basis for everything? (adam and eve)

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Yes and no, respectively. The basis for everything is faith in a god who is perfectly good. The free will bit was invented by people who were uncomfortable with how much we suck at being good. I happen to believe we have free will, but plenty of Christians don't. They are happy to believe in a plan that just looks as if we have free will. Suit yourself.


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I didnt say God wasnt good. I said he cant be ALL good because he had this "idea" of evil.

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You are perhaps assuming that God is not limited by what is logically impossible? Many Christians believe that God is in fact limited by logic, and further, that there are many things that are logically impossible in our world, including having both the freedom to choose God but not also the freedom to be bad.

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... I am pretty Afghan women do that. A good God would see their position and have sympathy for them.

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I couldn't agree more. He may even have specifically chosen you to go help them out /images/graemlins/grin.gif If you believe God has sympathy for the unreached heathen, you will be right at home in most Christian churches I know.

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I meant be happier with a death instead of with a birth. I found it ironic

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It is, I agree. We have plenty of reasons to be joyful at both occasions.

Colima420
04-18-2006, 02:53 PM
I pretty much share all your ideas. I think there is a God but that's about it. I don't believe in Heaven and I think that when we die, that's it, regardless of wether we were good or not.