Ironic?? (atheist--religious)

[DonkNitUP]

So assuming there is no correct religion and we should have not focus on one central religion, why do you think religion was "invented"? My guess would be to prevent chaos.
I think if there was one thing that could end this world however, it would be religions fighting with each other. Kind of ironic, dont ya think?

[Copernicus]

That wouldnt be my guess. Mine would be simple greed and lust for power on the part of whatever hierarchy that religion imposes on its adherents.

[Lestat]

Well, I think the concept of God or gods was developed back when there was little understanding of the earth and it's environment. If you think about it, a super natural being made all the sense in the world back then. People couldn't have known that tsunamis were caused by tectonic plates shifting hundreds of miles out to sea. So walls of water washing away multiple villages over miles and miles and killing thousands of people seemed like the wrath of God. Same with volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. etc.

As for religion... What makes the most sense to me, is that certain people used this fear of God and formed religions so they could gain power over people. Tell them how to live, etc.

I personally find it absolutely mind-numbing that this practice persists and still works to this day. As an atheist, I want to call these people stupid and gullible, but there are an amazing number of intelligent people left in this world who find religion to be logical. I think they are just refusing or for whatever reason uncomfortable with thinking for themselves.

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
why do you think religion was "invented"?

[/ QUOTE ] Because it was and is beneficial in many ways. Well maybe not the reason it was "invented", but surely the reason why it continued.

[ QUOTE ]
would be religions fighting with each other.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm near positive that if the end of the world is to happen soon religion will be used as a motivation, and rationalization by both sides. But I don't think it will be the underlying cause. Scarcity of resources will be. Lets just say that, and this is a way out there theory, oil becomes very scarce, I'm sure there will be a war between muslims and the religions of the contries wanting the oil. Of course oil won't be mentioned much, seeing as it is distasteful to kill over it.

[DonkNitUP]

I will agree that lust and greed for power created different religions but..
not speaking as an atheist, but as an observer.. would u not agree that there would be more stealing, more killing, and more whatever else if tomorrow it was announced that there was no God?

I mean as long as religious people dont try to force their religion on me or anyone else I have no problem with it because overall they have good moral values, whether it be for the right or wrong reasons (to go to heaven). the ironic thing im speaking of is that we are having all these peaceful religions (yea, maybe put there by corrupt people) but yet the world, if any way IMO, will come to an end because of it!

[bunny]

Assuming religion is purely a social phenomenon and has no "subject matter" -

Then I think the yearning for spirituality is an emotional response to the frightening nature of the world (this is why I think individuals like it).

I think the evolution of institutionalised religion is governed primarily by the forces which govern other institutions - ie with the goal of pacifying the disempowered majority and increasing the control of the ruling elite. (Probably "muddied" somewhat by influential members of said institutions who actually believe their own propaganda).

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
So assuming there is no correct religion and we should have not focus on one central religion, why do you think religion was "invented"? My guess would be to prevent chaos.
I think if there was one thing that could end this world however, it would be religions fighting with each other. Kind of ironic, dont ya think?

[/ QUOTE ]

The last guess gets more realistic everyday.

"Invented" though? - belief in 'supernatural' isn't at it's earliest stages, it's a belief in what seem natural. Most intelligent animals work on some level of cause-effect thinking and solve problems on that basis. Even chimps will 'challenge' or 'submit' to the thunder-doer. Early man ( just as chimps and dogs) used an ID-level thinking... there is something impressive being done so there must be a doer. simple as that. It grows from there, tossing in dreams of dead people, etc.

It evolves to 'supernatural' and politics turns it into religion by going through various stages as the group enlarges.

So primitive forms of it have been with us since pre-human days, it's partly coded in by now or at least being very receptive to it.

luckyme

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming religion is purely a social phenomenon and has no "subject matter" -

Then I think the yearning for spirituality is an emotional response to the frightening nature of the world (this is why I think individuals like it).

I think the evolution of institutionalised religion is governed primarily by the forces which govern other institutions - ie with the goal of pacifying the disempowered majority and increasing the control of the ruling elite. (Probably "muddied" somewhat by influential members of said institutions who actually believe their own propaganda).

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why doesn't it follow (with you), that religion is most likely man-made, and stems only from ancient perceptions of a supernatural being(s)?

[Copernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
I will agree that lust and greed for power created different religions but..
not speaking as an atheist, but as an observer.. would u not agree that there would be more stealing, more killing, and more whatever else if tomorrow it was announced that there was no God?

I mean as long as religious people dont try to force their religion on me or anyone else I have no problem with it because overall they have good moral values, whether it be for the right or wrong reasons (to go to heaven). the ironic thing im speaking of is that we are having all these peaceful religions (yea, maybe put there by corrupt people) but yet the world, if any way IMO, will come to an end because of it!

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I dont think there would be more killing, stealing, or whatever if there were no religion. There might be more individual anti-social behavior resulting from the lack of fear of eternal damnation, but that would be more than offset by the killing that would no longer be done in the name of god, the scamming (ie theft) of wealth/posessions by the various organized religions etc.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
would u not agree that there would be more stealing, more killing, and more whatever else if tomorrow it was announced that there was no God?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't agree with this, because I haven't killed anyone in months! Now that I think about it, I've managed to go without stealing anything during this time too!



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I have no problem with it because overall they have good moral values,

[/ QUOTE ]


It is the Christian right who are most apt to approve of the Iraqi war (and most wars). Are these the kind of moral values you're talking about?


[ QUOTE ]
because overall they have good moral values, whether it be for the right or wrong reasons (to go to heaven).

[/ QUOTE ]

So even though you might think it was for the wrong reasons (believing they were about to receive their 72 virgins), you otherwise approve of the values of those who few planes into the WTC?

[Andrew Karpinski]

This isn't really irony. It would be ironic if the catholic church was founded so that people wouldn't believe in God.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming religion is purely a social phenomenon and has no "subject matter" -

Then I think the yearning for spirituality is an emotional response to the frightening nature of the world (this is why I think individuals like it).

I think the evolution of institutionalised religion is governed primarily by the forces which govern other institutions - ie with the goal of pacifying the disempowered majority and increasing the control of the ruling elite. (Probably "muddied" somewhat by influential members of said institutions who actually believe their own propaganda).

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why doesn't it follow (with you), that religion is most likely man-made, and stems only from ancient perceptions of a supernatural being(s)?

[/ QUOTE ]
I have written before about why I believe in God - I think this is rational (although my choice of which religion is necessarily irrational). However, I certainly dont discount the possibility that my belief is wrong and that I am one of the deluded masses. If I am deluded then my post above is the most likely explanation in my opinion.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming religion is purely a social phenomenon and has no "subject matter" -

Then I think the yearning for spirituality is an emotional response to the frightening nature of the world (this is why I think individuals like it).

I think the evolution of institutionalised religion is governed primarily by the forces which govern other institutions - ie with the goal of pacifying the disempowered majority and increasing the control of the ruling elite. (Probably "muddied" somewhat by influential members of said institutions who actually believe their own propaganda).

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why doesn't it follow (with you), that religion is most likely man-made, and stems only from ancient perceptions of a supernatural being(s)?

[/ QUOTE ]
I have written before about why I believe in God - I think this is rational (although my choice of which religion is necessarily irrational). However, I certainly dont discount the possibility that my belief is wrong and that I am one of the deluded masses. If I am deluded then my post above is the most likely explanation in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I either missed where you explained this before, or I would like to re-read it. Can you provide a link, or maybe which thread it was in?

Or is it as simple as what you outlined above? That you have a spiritual yearning due to emotional or fearfulness of the world reasons?

[siegfriedandroy]

I think it's misguided for anyone to say that religion was 'invented' for some overarching pragmatic reason. Primitive tribes, for example, didnt invent religion to control people, etc. People were religious (for the most part) b/c they genuinely believed in the supernatural.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming religion is purely a social phenomenon and has no "subject matter" -

Then I think the yearning for spirituality is an emotional response to the frightening nature of the world (this is why I think individuals like it).

I think the evolution of institutionalised religion is governed primarily by the forces which govern other institutions - ie with the goal of pacifying the disempowered majority and increasing the control of the ruling elite. (Probably "muddied" somewhat by influential members of said institutions who actually believe their own propaganda).

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why doesn't it follow (with you), that religion is most likely man-made, and stems only from ancient perceptions of a supernatural being(s)?

[/ QUOTE ]
I have written before about why I believe in God - I think this is rational (although my choice of which religion is necessarily irrational). However, I certainly dont discount the possibility that my belief is wrong and that I am one of the deluded masses. If I am deluded then my post above is the most likely explanation in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I either missed where you explained this before, or I would like to re-read it. Can you provide a link, or maybe which thread it was in?

Or is it as simple as what you outlined above? That you have a spiritual yearning due to emotional or fearfulness of the world reasons?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont know how interesting it is, philosophically. A broad outline of "why I am a theist" (and why I think it is a rational belief) is here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=4848833&an=&page=0&v c=1)

[Copernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
Assuming religion is purely a social phenomenon and has no "subject matter" -

Then I think the yearning for spirituality is an emotional response to the frightening nature of the world (this is why I think individuals like it).

I think the evolution of institutionalised religion is governed primarily by the forces which govern other institutions - ie with the goal of pacifying the disempowered majority and increasing the control of the ruling elite. (Probably "muddied" somewhat by influential members of said institutions who actually believe their own propaganda).

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why doesn't it follow (with you), that religion is most likely man-made, and stems only from ancient perceptions of a supernatural being(s)?

[/ QUOTE ]
I have written before about why I believe in God - I think this is rational (although my choice of which religion is necessarily irrational). However, I certainly dont discount the possibility that my belief is wrong and that I am one of the deluded masses. If I am deluded then my post above is the most likely explanation in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I either missed where you explained this before, or I would like to re-read it. Can you provide a link, or maybe which thread it was in?

Or is it as simple as what you outlined above? That you have a spiritual yearning due to emotional or fearfulness of the world reasons?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont know how interesting it is, philosophically. A broad outline of "why I am a theist" (and why I think it is a rational belief) is here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=4848833&an=&page=0&v c=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you be any more specific about the "connection", which you attribute to a connection with god (or if Im misunderstanding the other post, a connection with something else that can only be explained with the existence of god)?

Since it recurred often (is it still recurring?) and you clearly thought deeply about it, were you ever able to put words to it? (Eg a feeling of ____________ (fill in many blanks); reveleations of __________; etc).

The "Born agains" that I have met have claimed to feel connection to god because of euphoric experiences that almost exclusively occurred during religious gatherings. These of course can rationally be explained as the same kind of "high" as anyone might get listening to music, or having one's team win the Frozen Four. (Oops....you might not get that down under, lets say the Super Bowl).


(Note: Im not classifying you as a "Born again", which has negative connotations here, I am referring to people I have met, generally in evolution debates or their proselytizing.)

Also not sure if you saw or answered and I didnt see...are you also BunnyFCP?

[bunny]

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[ QUOTE ]
Assuming religion is purely a social phenomenon and has no "subject matter" -

Then I think the yearning for spirituality is an emotional response to the frightening nature of the world (this is why I think individuals like it).

I think the evolution of institutionalised religion is governed primarily by the forces which govern other institutions - ie with the goal of pacifying the disempowered majority and increasing the control of the ruling elite. (Probably "muddied" somewhat by influential members of said institutions who actually believe their own propaganda).

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why doesn't it follow (with you), that religion is most likely man-made, and stems only from ancient perceptions of a supernatural being(s)?

[/ QUOTE ]
I have written before about why I believe in God - I think this is rational (although my choice of which religion is necessarily irrational). However, I certainly dont discount the possibility that my belief is wrong and that I am one of the deluded masses. If I am deluded then my post above is the most likely explanation in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I either missed where you explained this before, or I would like to re-read it. Can you provide a link, or maybe which thread it was in?

Or is it as simple as what you outlined above? That you have a spiritual yearning due to emotional or fearfulness of the world reasons?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont know how interesting it is, philosophically. A broad outline of "why I am a theist" (and why I think it is a rational belief) is here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=4848833&an=&page=0&v c=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you be any more specific about the "connection", which you attribute to a connection with god (or if Im misunderstanding the other post, a connection with something else that can only be explained with the existence of god)?

Since it recurred often (is it still recurring?) and you clearly thought deeply about it, were you ever able to put words to it? (Eg a feeling of ____________ (fill in many blanks); reveleations of __________; etc).

The "Born agains" that I have met have claimed to feel connection to god because of euphoric experiences that almost exclusively occurred during religious gatherings. These of course can rationally be explained as the same kind of "high" as anyone might get listening to music, or having one's team win the Frozen Four. (Oops....you might not get that down under, lets say the Super Bowl).


(Note: Im not classifying you as a "Born again", which has negative connotations here, I am referring to people I have met, generally in evolution debates or their proselytizing.)

Also not sure if you saw or answered and I didnt see...are you also BunnyFCP?

[/ QUOTE ]
I am uncomfortable talking about my religious experience/delusion - whichever it is for two reasons. First I'm not good at explaining it, second it seems irrational to me for anyone else to take it seriously (or at least for a non-believer to take it seriously) so it doesnt feel like a philosophy forum is the right place to introduce it in case it seems I am presenting it as "evidence" (which I think it is to me but not to anyone else).

Essentially, it isnt the euphoric high you mentioned but closer to a calm, happy meditative state - it has occurred in a variety of situations (including church more recently but it persisted for many years when I was an "active" atheist). I acknowledge that there are other possible explanations for it - my emotional makeup being the most likely in my opinion (I discount social pressure due to being raised atheistically and having a wide variety of beliefs some in tune with society and my parents/peers some being directly opposed without noticeable tension).

Trust me that my attempts at disbelieving any spiritual reality to it were genuine and protracted - in spite of ten years of active skepticism I still came to believe (rather than choosing to believe) and now find myself having to proceed from there. Intellectually, it would be "neater" to exclude God a la Occam's razor but this doesnt gel with how I find the world.

I hope it is clear this is a description of my position intended as clarifying and not as persuasive - I will repeat that I dont regard someone else claiming religious experience as a rational reason for anybody to accept it as true.

I didnt see you ask and I dont know who that other bunny is. I'm a bridge player and "bunny" is the bridge equivalent of "fish". When I joined here it seemed appropriate given my poker abilities.

[HLMencken]

It wasn't "invented" so much as just grew out of people trying to explain the world and universe around them.

[DonkNitUP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
would u not agree that there would be more stealing, more killing, and more whatever else if tomorrow it was announced that there was no God?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't agree with this, because I haven't killed anyone in months! Now that I think about it, I've managed to go without stealing anything during this time too!



[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with it because overall they have good moral values,

[/ QUOTE ]


It is the Christian right who are most apt to approve of the Iraqi war (and most wars). Are these the kind of moral values you're talking about?


[ QUOTE ]
because overall they have good moral values, whether it be for the right or wrong reasons (to go to heaven).

[/ QUOTE ]

So even though you might think it was for the wrong reasons (believing they were about to receive their 72 virgins), you otherwise approve of the values of those who few planes into the WTC?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, you dont kill anyone or steal anything because you have a mind in which you think for yourself. Other people (christians or whoever) behave to please God. So it is my belief that if it is found out there is no God, they wouldnt have anything to care about and could do whatever they wanted (barbaric!!)

also, i cant speak for christians or muslims but i am pretty sure over all they condemn killing. Iradicals such as the 911 bombers do not fit into the muslim religion IMO and therefore you obviously cant approve of their values.

[DonkNitUP]

[ QUOTE ]
It wasn't "invented" so much as just grew out of people trying to explain the world and universe around them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually tried to pick a word such as "invented" that everyone could agree with.
From dictionary.com ---
in·vent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-vnt)
tr.v. in·vent·ed, in·vent·ing, in·vents
To produce or contrive (something previously unknown) by the use of ingenuity or imagination.

I think we could definately say religion was invented

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It wasn't "invented" so much as just grew out of people trying to explain the world and universe around them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually tried to pick a word such as "invented" that everyone could agree with.
From dictionary.com ---
in·vent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-vnt)
tr.v. in·vent·ed, in·vent·ing, in·vents
To produce or contrive (something previously unknown) by the use of ingenuity or imagination.

I think we could definately say religion was invented

[/ QUOTE ]
I think most believers would accept your definition of invention but claim religion was discovered.

[Lestat]

I really would like to learn more about Christian's beliefs when it comes to killing. As far as I can tell, they don't seem to have a problem with it.

Many certainly have no problem with it in times of war. George Bush is a devout Christian as are most politicians (at least they have to claim a belief in God in order to get elected in this country).

I also think (someone can correct me if I'm wrong), that most Christians support the death penalty. In short, I don't see where Christians (or most religions for that matter), have a problem with killing people.

[DonkNitUP]

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Many certainly have no problem with it in times of war.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont want to start defending different religions because if you can tell in my original post, I am saying its ironic and quite laughable that killing goes on BETWEEN religions and could very easily cause the world to end BECAUSE OF WARS. Religion was not intended to create wars, but it is.

I am pretty sure if you ask any Christian they say: Love thy Neighbor, Do unto others have you would have them do unto you, and killing is a sin. There are 3 examples of how peace is expected within the religion. My point was how ironic it is that killing is going on because of the religions!

[SWB]

[ QUOTE ]
So assuming there is no correct religion and we should have not focus on one central religion, why do you think religion was "invented"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Same reason as science - to answer "what's happening and why?" questions. Nowadays the two fields are different, but that's a modern trend. For most of recorded history, and (probably) all of prehistory, religious leaders were the ones trying to figure out how weather works, what the stars are, etc. Shamans and other religious leaders in pre-literate tribal societies are often the repository of a huge amount of information vital to the tribe's survival, about cycles of plant growth, animal migration, climate, medicine, and so on. No reason to suspect it was any different in prehistory.

[illeagle]

Maybe Lil Dead Pope (http://www.devilducky.com/media/44226/) can answer some of your questions.

[pilliwinks]

I agree with bunny that institutionalised religion follows the rules of all institutions. I wouldn't agree that this inevitably leads to repression of the masses, but still those that survive tend to do so at the expense of alternative institutions. This is not always bloody, but given human nature, it has that tendancy.

And I agree with the OP that reduction of chaos (I'd say establishment of orthodoxy), is a possible result of organised religion, and I'd go further to say that it is a huge benefit to those societies that can pull it off. If you disagree, read what the participants in the English Civil War thought. Of course tolerance is great too, but historically it tends to be limited and brief...

I would be interested to know whether the propensity for people to fight each other is more pronounced when they have a religious cause rather than a selfish one. Personally I suspect the latter - the Mongol hordes were not fighting for a God, nor the Romans, nor the countless clans and tribes that have fought since darkest antiquity.

It is of course sad to see hypocrisy in action, but that is no reason to criticise genuine faith, any more than the actions of those who fabricate results are a reason to dispute the merits of science.

[Copernicus]

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Maybe Lil Dead Pope (http://www.devilducky.com/media/44226/) can answer some of your questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO "Doesnt god have the decency to look away while Im dropping a deuce"?

[Requin]

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I think it's misguided for anyone to say that religion was 'invented' for some overarching pragmatic reason. Primitive tribes, for example, didnt invent religion to control people, etc. People were religious (for the most part) b/c they genuinely believed in the supernatural.

[/ QUOTE ]

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's misguided for anyone to say that religion was 'invented' for some overarching pragmatic reason. Primitive tribes, for example, didnt invent religion to control people, etc. People were religious (for the most part) b/c they genuinely believed in the supernatural.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think why people are religious and why religion was invented are two different questions (I am presuming here that it has no real subject matter and is purely a social construction).

So I think tribespeople were religious because they believed - but I think the invention of rituals, sacrifices, etc by the shamans or whatever group was the religious authority was to benefit themselves. (I doubt any of the priest classes lived poorly in any of the primitive cultures).

[J. Sawyer]

I think there is one obvious reason that religion began to exist: to explain existance

[cambraceres]

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Many certainly have no problem with it in times of war.

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I dont want to start defending different religions because if you can tell in my original post, I am saying its ironic and quite laughable that killing goes on BETWEEN religions and could very easily cause the world to end BECAUSE OF WARS. Religion was not intended to create wars, but it is.

I am pretty sure if you ask any Christian they say: Love thy Neighbor, Do unto others have you would have them do unto you, and killing is a sin. There are 3 examples of how peace is expected within the religion. My point was how ironic it is that killing is going on because of the religions!

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't weird at all. I can't find it but I made a longish post about that specific question from yukoncpa.
The post basically explained why Christianity served to increase moral improprieties.

[deadmoney314]

I agree religion was invented to explain natural phenomenons before they were understood. In fact, any time a child would ask a parent, "why is X" the parent would cut and paste "because <insert diety here>" if the parent did not know the answer. Religion is more of a crutch than anything, and most people are happy to use it so they can simply ignore and judge anything they don't understand at a glance. It is a much easier road to take.
That being said, I don't agree that religion was invented with the sole purpose of governance in mind. I think imho that people in power over the eons found religion an easy way to exert control over the masses. Like Kings in the middle ages supposedly having divine providence probably thought that they were in fact they were God's choice to rule. Religion in many past societies created kingdoms and countries out of tribes with the natural ruling structure associated with most religions.

[ElaineMonster]

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That wouldnt be my guess. Mine would be simple greed and lust for power on the part of whatever hierarchy that religion imposes on its adherents.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's my guess, too. Power and control.