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View Full Version : the likely distance scale for interacting ETs


Metric
04-13-2006, 04:01 PM
Ray Kurzweil makes a good argument for the exponential growth of sophistication, which has held roughly constant all the way through the history of evolution of life up until now, with the growth of our technology. He argues that if this continues, humans will eventually overcome their biological limitations and continue the acceleration of our computational power at an ever increasing rate. The final stage of this, which he calls "epoch 6," culminates with humanity saturating the computational resources of this planet, and expanding "outward" by necessity at some surprisingly large fraction of the speed of light, saturating other worlds etc. as we go. The interesting thing, though, is that the timescale for us to reach this level of sophistication is surprisingly short, due to the exponential trend in the growth of technology.

This makes a powerful argument that we are at least "locally" alone in our universe. Once an intelligence evolves (the timescale of which is on the order of a billion years), the timescale for it to reach "epoch 6" is very tiny by comparison. Thus if an intelligence exists, e.g. in our galaxy, we would almost certainly see the effects or have our own solar system saturated by alien intelligence.

Since the timescale of evolution of intelligence is on the order of a billion years, it seems logical to me that the natural distance scale between the meeting of intelligences is on the order of a billion light-years. At shorter distance scales, it's all about simply being first, since the first intelligence to evolve will very quickly be expanding at roughly the speed of light, and saturate the vicinity of any "not quite evolved" intelligence that simply missed being the first by a million years. However, out past a billion light-years (roughly), there remains enough time for another intelligence to continue to evolve, even as the first intelligence continues expanding outward at an extremely rapid rate.

Thus the timescale for evolution essentially sets the "distance scale" of where one "epoch 6" civilization can expect to run into another "epoch 6" civilization.

Note, though, that a billion light-years is a huge distance! Superclusters of galaxies exist on the scale of 100's of millions of light years. Thus, instead of a "Star Trek" or "Star Wars" picture of interacting intelligences on a "solar system to solar system" scale, it seems much more likely to me that intelligences will actually interact on a galactic supercluster-to-supercluster scale, very possibly with our decendants running the Virgo supercluster (though one has to wonder about the nature of the interaction -- will they war for resources? will they merge? it is interesting that the timescale for communication within one of these "empires" is also a billion years -- what effect will that have on interaction with other ones?)

garion888
04-13-2006, 04:12 PM
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This makes a powerful argument that we are at least "locally" alone in our universe

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Doesn't it follow that since basically everything around us is average (average star etc etc) that another civilization would start and evolve at about the same time and rate we do? So if they were say only 100 million light years away that they could be "growing up" with us and we still wouldn't have met by now?. How bout 10 million light years away? How close do they get before we know it at an earlier stage?

And what epoch are we in now?

Metric
04-13-2006, 04:37 PM
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Doesn't it follow that since basically everything around us is average (average star etc etc) that another civilization would start and evolve at about the same time and rate we do?

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That is roughly what I am assuming. But if it takes us 4 billion years to evolve intelligence, and the next one 5 billion (or maybe 3 billion -- or maybe their solar system formed a billion years earlier or later), we're still talking about us being at least a billion light years apart for there to be "non-trivial" interaction between us when we meet.

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So if they were say only 100 million light years away that they could be "growing up" with us and we still wouldn't have met by now?. How bout 10 million light years away? How close do they get before we know it at an earlier stage?

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Nothing really prevents two fairly nearby civilizations from emerging as "epoch 6" at exactly the same time -- I merely argue that the timescales involved make it unlikely, since there is only (in our case) time on the order of 1,000's of years between the first recognizable civilization and "epoch 6."

BTW, I forget what Kurzweil calls the current "epoch."

Sharkey
04-14-2006, 12:25 AM
Little green men, huh? Okay.

Hopey
04-14-2006, 01:18 AM
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Little green men, huh? Okay.

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Yeah, the bible doesn't say anything about aliens, so they can't possibly exist.

Bork
04-14-2006, 01:23 AM
Ok, but it is there any reason to think our rate of advancement is sustainable for a billion years?

Sharkey
04-14-2006, 01:26 AM
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Little green men, huh? Okay.

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Yeah, the bible doesn't say anything about aliens, so they can't possibly exist.

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How interesting. Science hasn’t produced one either.

Hopey
04-14-2006, 01:33 AM
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Little green men, huh? Okay.

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Yeah, the bible doesn't say anything about aliens, so they can't possibly exist.

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How interesting. Science hasn’t produced one either.

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That's okay, if "science" produced an alien, you'd assume it was some kind of hoax anyway.

Sharkey
04-14-2006, 01:40 AM
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Little green men, huh? Okay.

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Yeah, the bible doesn't say anything about aliens, so they can't possibly exist.

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How interesting. Science hasn’t produced one either.

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That's okay, if "science" produced an alien, you'd assume it was some kind of hoax anyway.

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Are you claiming the existence of aliens should be dismissed out of hand for a scientific reason?

IronDragon1
04-14-2006, 01:44 AM
You used to at least apply basic principles of symbolic logic correctly though your premises were almost always incorrect

Now you're just making a complete fool out of yourself

Sharkey
04-14-2006, 01:47 AM
What are you talking about?

Hopey
04-14-2006, 01:56 AM
[ QUOTE ]
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Little green men, huh? Okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the bible doesn't say anything about aliens, so they can't possibly exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

How interesting. Science hasn’t produced one either.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's okay, if "science" produced an alien, you'd assume it was some kind of hoax anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you claiming the existence of aliens should be dismissed out of hand for a scientific reason?

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Who cares what scientists tell us. As you have repeated ad nauseum, scientists are only interested in getting us to buy into their aetheistic hoaxes.

Sharkey
04-14-2006, 02:01 AM
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Little green men, huh? Okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the bible doesn't say anything about aliens, so they can't possibly exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

How interesting. Science hasn’t produced one either.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's okay, if "science" produced an alien, you'd assume it was some kind of hoax anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you claiming the existence of aliens should be dismissed out of hand for a scientific reason?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who cares what scientists tell us. As you have repeated ad nauseum, scientists are only interested in getting us to buy into their aetheistic hoaxes.

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Maybe you don’t care what scientists think, but I care a lot.

I never claimed scientists are only interested in such hoaxes. You’re back in fantasy land. Produce a link when you make such a ridiculous claim.

Hopey
04-14-2006, 02:08 AM
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Little green men, huh? Okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the bible doesn't say anything about aliens, so they can't possibly exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

How interesting. Science hasn’t produced one either.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's okay, if "science" produced an alien, you'd assume it was some kind of hoax anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you claiming the existence of aliens should be dismissed out of hand for a scientific reason?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who cares what scientists tell us. As you have repeated ad nauseum, scientists are only interested in getting us to buy into their aetheistic hoaxes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you don’t care what scientists think, but I care a lot.

I never claimed scientists are only interested in such hoaxes. You’re back in fantasy land. Produce a link when you make such a ridiculous claim.

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So you only mistrust the scientists who are studying evolution as well as the scientists who believe that the appendix is useless? Every other scientist is trustworthy?

Sharkey
04-14-2006, 02:17 AM
Sorry, you are way off topic and making very little sense.

flatline
04-14-2006, 01:19 PM
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Ok, but it is there any reason to think our rate of advancement is sustainable for a billion years?

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Of course exponential advancement isn't possible for a billion years. Once we reach this "epoch 6", as Kurzweil calls it, we will plateau off. However we have a lot of advancement between here and there. Furthermore, we don't have to maintain a rate of advancement, we just have to maintain the advancement we already achieved.