Making the mod forum viewable to all!!!!!

[El Diablo]

Tony P suggested in one of the split threads:

--
At some sites restricted forums are viewable (but not postable) to all users. I think that's what 2+2 should do with the 'star chamber' so we can see what the hell all the fuss is about in there.
--

I think this is a phenomenal idea!

[stabn]

There is really nothing interesting in the mod forum.

[keikiwai]

This also would solve the question of whether the mod forum really exists in the first place, or is just some dive bar where all the mods go to get drunk.

[El Diablo]

stabn,

OK, sounds like absolutely no reason not to make it read-only visible to all then!

[amplify]

Gee I wonder along what lines the voting is liable to break down here.

[Evan]

Some of my mod forum threads are great, I wish more people could see them.

[shemp]

I like the opportunity for Kremlin Watching that you get when access is restricted. For instance, I have a theory that one of the mods has compromising pictures of the other mods, and that is why his opinions have any sway.

[Aloysius]

El Diablo - just go Mod then. Defeat DB in some kind of survivor thing. Profit.

Helpfully,
-Al

[ThaHero]

Why would anyone vote no? If you personally dont wanna have access, vote yes anyway so those that want to can.

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
stabn,

OK, sounds like absolutely no reason not to make it read-only visible to all then!

[/ QUOTE ]

I (personally) have no problem with that. I'm not sure if it is actually a good idea or not. You are definitely going to do your usual good job of stirring the pot with this though.

There are definitely some problems with the idea though. This mostly concerns threads that are removed from public view for privacy reasons, etc.

[spamuell]

I wonder if there is anyone who voted No who is not a mod. I went with yes but I don't really care, I imagine it genuinely is very boring.

[shemp]

The thing few miss about his subversion for his own amusement is that it is inevitably sounder than the views of those in earnest.

[Jurollo]

[ QUOTE ]
There are lots of really secret things in the mod forum.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are lots of really naughty cyber conversations between MTT mods in the mod forum.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

[poker1O1]

I voted no because it's a privaledge the mods have earned.
But while we're on the subject of mods, I'm curious how to become one (other than being devoted to the site). I've heard of a star system (?), can someone explain?

[Boris]

Word.

[Jurollo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are lots of really naughty cyber conversations about stabn between MTT mods in the mod forum.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

CHECK.....MATE

[JaredL]

I'm not sure that it's good for people to see discussion of whether or not certain posters should be banned.

Suppose a guy makes some borderline trollish posts and there's some uncertainty over banning him. There is a pretty high chance that seeing it discussed in the mod forum could cause disruptions in other forums, including strategy forums. This would be ok if it limited itself to OOT but it would be bad in MHNL or whatever.

Then again there is some benefit. If said guy is reasonable but for whatever reason has been crossing the line maybe seeing the discussion would benefit the forums if he sees it and calms down.

I could be convinced either way.

Most of the discussion isn't like that, it's a lot of "what should I do with this thread?" type stuff where, say, a post that's spammy but would benefit users is discussed. That type of stuff doesn't really need to be seen and would call attention to threads that are deemed questionable enough to be brought up.

Jared

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are lots of really naughty cyber conversations about stabn between MTT mods in the mod forum.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

CHECK.....MATE

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm used to that anyway. Why do you think i still play WoW?

[NLSoldier]

diablo,

im not a mod but i voted no because ive seen the mod forum and its seriously really boring. but if i could read it i probably would, and that would be a huge waste of time.

[DavidC]

Why do you want to know?

[El Diablo]

NL,

WTF!???!!?! YOU HAVE SEEN THE MOD FORUM?

This is f'ing outrageous.

So, mods are telling me that there's a forum that is not readable to all members of 2+2 for whatever reasons, but mods are going around showing it to their friends?

I demand that you disclose who showed you this forum and that person be stripped of his mod powers immediately.

[CrazyEyez]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if there is anyone who voted No who is not a mod. I went with yes but I don't really care, I imagine it genuinely is very boring.

[/ QUOTE ]
I voted no because who cares. This whole business has become tedious.

[Phil153]

I'd like to see a screenshot of the mod forum, just to prove it actually exists.

[NLSoldier]

diablo,

ill give you a hint.

hes the smartest guy ive ever talked to.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would anyone vote no? If you personally dont wanna have access, vote yes anyway so those that want to can.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about this: there's potential that opening the mod forum to public viewing could compromise the abilities of mods to make objectively good policy.

That would be bad, right?

[VoraciousReader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
stabn,

OK, sounds like absolutely no reason not to make it read-only visible to all then!

[/ QUOTE ]

I (personally) have no problem with that. I'm not sure if it is actually a good idea or not. You are definitely going to do your usual good job of stirring the pot with this though.


[/ QUOTE ]

My prediction of how this would go down:

Week 1: Mod Forum exceeds OOT in users browsing.

Week 2: Mod Forum has zero traffic because everyone figured out how boring the forum is. Seriously, how many posts of "I banned GuySmiley for spamming" and "Please fix it so we don't get so many automated PMs" would the average user want to read?

Week 3: 2 mods disagree about a particular policy in mod forum. Before any resolution is reached, outrage spreads like wildfire. Users flood OOT and Forum Suggestions with their own opinions and are mad that they don't have the ability to post to the mod forum. OOT starts a "Save the forums! Ban the evil, power-hungry mod that suggested this!" campaign.

Week 4: Mod forum made private again.

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
There is really nothing interesting in the mod forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

The identity of Commodus is in there

[El Diablo]

Jared,

I don't really care one way or the other, but I don't think your arguments really hold water given the number of random people who are now mods. I don't know who half the guys in green are and some are f'in idiots, so I have a hard time believing they are more qualified to make such judgements than many other 2+2 members.

[daryn]

[ QUOTE ]
diablo,

ill give you a hint.

hes the smartest guy ive ever talked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf? remember dude, we talked a little in vegas

[spamuell]

Hints are not good enough. If you refuse to reveal the unethical person who showed it to you, you're as bad as they are and no one is going to believe that you are truly repentant. Your evasive answers denying responsiblity are impressing no one.

[amplify]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would anyone vote no? If you personally dont wanna have access, vote yes anyway so those that want to can.

[/ QUOTE ]
How about this: there's potential that opening the mod forum to public viewing could compromise the abilities of mods to make objectively good policy.

That would be bad, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you hold a libertarian view that simply by making policy they are making bad policy.

[talentdeficit]

making the mod forum viewable to all is a terrible idea, but i voted yes anyways.

[GambleGamble]

Whats to stop them from showing a mod forum that we can see yet still having a secret mod forum those bastards

[gilbert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is really nothing interesting in the mod forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

The identity of Commodus is in there

[/ QUOTE ]

There is really nothing interesting in the mod forum.

[Madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
The identity of Commodus is in there

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
There is really nothing interesting in the mod forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see a screenshot of the mod forum, just to prove it actually exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y151/stabn/starchamber.jpg

[Mat Sklansky]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would anyone vote no? If you personally dont wanna have access, vote yes anyway so those that want to can.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about this: there's potential that opening the mod forum to public viewing could compromise the abilities of mods to make objectively good policy.

That would be bad, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be the result. On the other hand, since moderation threads seems so popular, I'd be willing to open it to viewing, but only if you guys in oot would be willing to have a split from oot in the way of a let's discuss the moderator forum forum. Then the damage might be worth it.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
diablo,

ill give you a hint.

hes the smartest guy ive ever talked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf? remember dude, we talked a little in vegas

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah but I was too drunk to remember much of it /images/graemlins/frown.gif

will you settle for being 2nd smartest?

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see a screenshot of the mod forum, just to prove it actually exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/3872/modforum0sm.th.jpg (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=modforum0sm.jpg)

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is really nothing interesting in the mod forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

The identity of Commodus is in there

[/ QUOTE ]

liar.

[stabn]

F U.

[shemp]

You think mod policy discussion is what needs protection/is being protected?

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
diablo,

ill give you a hint.

hes the smartest guy ive ever talked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf? remember dude, we talked a little in vegas

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah but I was too drunk to remember much of it /images/graemlins/frown.gif

will you settle for being 2nd smartest?

[/ QUOTE ]

just to clarify, I think evan showed me the mod forum once too, but im hoping hes smart enough to know that hes not the person i was refering to /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

edit-lol, ok he was indeed smart enough to realize that it wasnt him

Evan (5:13:06 PM): who showed you the mod forum?
NLS (5:13:10 PM): lol
Evan (5:13:11 PM): i thought i did, but i dont think that hint is me

[Mat Sklansky]

[ QUOTE ]
Jared,

I don't really care one way or the other, but I don't think your arguments really hold water given the number of random people who are now mods. I don't know who half the guys in green are and some are f'in idiots, so I have a hard time believing they are more qualified to make such judgements than many other 2+2 members.

[/ QUOTE ]

About the forums is now open to specific moderator complaints, if you care to elaborate on those who are idiotic.

[El Diablo]

VR: I have no idea who the f you are, but I think you are right on!

NL: DAVID SKLANSKY SHOWED YOU THE MOD FORUM!??!?!!?!?!?!!!

DavidC: "How about this: there's potential that opening the mod forum to public viewing could compromise the abilities of mods to make objectively good policy." I think anyone who doesn't laugh at that statement takes this stuff way too seriously.

GG: F you man, they are too dumb to have thought of that themselves!!!!!

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is really nothing interesting in the mod forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

The identity of Commodus is in there

[/ QUOTE ]

liar.

[/ QUOTE ]

hm I could have sworn it was

[spamuell]

Even until you posted that, I didn't realise you could change the size of the reply box. For almost three years I've been typing long replies into a tiny box, I feel like a complete tit.

[CrazyEyez]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is really nothing interesting in the mod forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

The identity of Commodus is in there

[/ QUOTE ]
I change my vote.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
F U.

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't see yours before I posted. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
F U.

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't see yours before I posted. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It's cool. My gimmick of editing in 'star chamber' was fun while it lasted.

[El Diablo]

Mat,

There are a lot of people on 2+2 who I think are idiots but are also nice guys that I have absolutely no reason to call out as idiots. Just because someone's an idiot doesn't mean I have any complaint or problem with them!

"let's discuss the moderator forum forum."

Whoa, that's a great idea! Read-only access to the mod forum and a forum for discussing the stuff in that read-only forum! Mat, do you think you could have been a Nobel Prize winner if you set your mind to it?

[NLSoldier]

Diablo,

No, it wasnt sklanksy. Ive never talked to sklansky. I have talked to mason, but he didnt really say anything to give me the impression that he is the smartest person ive ever talked to.

[amplify]

[ QUOTE ]
Diablo,

No, it wasnt sklanksy. Ive never talked to sklansky. I have talked to mason, but he didnt really say anything to give me the impression that he is the smartest person ive ever talked to.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've talked to sklansky and neither did he but that doesn't mean he is or isn't.

[Requin]

Diablo, I think its time to change the mask on your avatar:
http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rv_img/mask.jpg

[nation]

I have no problem with splitting off another DISCUSS MOD FORUM forum. Do it.

[xorbie]

i voted yes but the mod forum is actually boring enough that i barely read it.

[MicroBob]

I'm honestly not sure where I stand on this issue.

I was only recently made a mod (early January) and I'm pretty sure that if I was asked this Q back then I would have said that opening it up to the public would be for the best.
Afterall, what the hell are they hiding in there?


After becoming a mod it took me 2 or more weeks to even bother with the forum because it just didn't look that exciting (maybe I wasn't quite feeling like I belonged in there anyway because I was new).

After being a part of it for the past few weeks I can now see why it might be important to keep it private.

"So and so is kind of trollish. I'm considering banning him but am not sure whether his latest post crosses the line or not."


And stuff like that.

And also the 'deleted' posts that are really just moved to the Mod forum just to keep a record of them and/or let the other mods look at the thread together and decide if perhaps it is okay afterall and should be moved back into public viewing.

[daryn]

i'd like to search for my name in the mod forum and see what if anything comes up

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
i voted yes but the mod forum is actually boring enough that i barely read it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Michael Davis]

I think the mod forum should be open because a self-contained forum with such a high DB quotient could explode.

-Michael

[ilya]

Hell yes. Isn't that what the Freedom of Information Act is all about?! America is a great country because it is free and open, and so it is every patriot's duty to support this idea.

[Blarg]

Seems like it would just create a lot of unnecessary drama and have a chilling effect on the free discussions of the moderators. Who would want to have to worry about being politically correct when talking about why you think a poster is or isn't being a douchebag and what should be done about it?

Not in favor.

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like it would just create a lot of unnecessary drama and have a chilling effect on the free discussions of the moderators. Who would want to have to worry about being politically correct when talking about why you think a poster is or isn't being a douchebag and what should be done about it?

Not in favor.

[/ QUOTE ]

It might focus discussion on policy and how a post relates to policy -- not who is a douchebag. Tribalism is moved to the back rather than the front.

[El Diablo]

Blarg,

Who needs to worry about being politically correct? If a moderator thinks someone is a douchebag but isn't willing to say so to their face, I don't see the need for a private forum where they can talk sht about that person.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
I imagine it genuinely is very boring.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to search it for my own name and see what comes up (and be disappointed when there are no results returned).

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
Blarg,

Who needs to worry about being politically correct? If a moderator thinks someone is a douchebag but isn't willing to say so to their face, I don't see the need for a private forum where they can talk sht about that person.

[/ QUOTE ]

douchebag

[rt1]

eld, you have no idea what you are missing... the mod forum is like oot x10... i am always refreshing it for new drama.

ryan

[BeerMoney]

I voted no. Seems to make sense that it would be private.

Diablo, why don't you just go greeen?

[gorie]

i voted no.

[The DaveR]

Yes, of course. The notion that mods are better equipped than many non-mods at policy-making for the forums is dumb. The notion that discussions about potential banning should be confidential is dumb.

But more importantly, I think mods would be surprised how little people would care for the most part.

[JaredL]

Diablito,

I'm not sure that some mods being f'in idiots goes against my point. My points were that it may or may not be good for a poster and his friends to see the discussion of his being banned and that it would call extra attention to things that get brought up which are questionable (which is why they are brought up in the first place). People bring these up in the mod forum for input from other mods but mainly from admins.

I agree that there are tons of users who could provide input to the questions raised, many could probably give better feedback than the people in the "star chamber."

Maybe a hypothetical example would help. Suppose a NL mod made a post like this:

subject: el Diablo spamming website ok?

body: In a few recent threads in addition to giving his usual kick ass advice, el Diablo has referred people to articles on his website casadepokerdeldiablo.com, which is full of affiliate links. Is this appropriate? Should I remove the links and send a pm? Perhaps el diablo should be suspendido?
[/example]

I'm suggesting that a cost of people actually following the mod forum (which may or may not be enough to worry about) is that this forum would call attention to these posts and especially casadepokerdeldiablo.com which probably isn't going be a good thing.

My hunch is that reading the mod forum will quickly become not very popular and this won't matter much anyway.

Also, I'm curious to know if you think I'm an f'in idiot. Feel free to PM me.

Jared

[tdarko]

El piensa como futbol y pone los postes en escrito largos.

[El Diablo]

Jared: No, from what I've seen you rule, but I don't have much of a sample size, so you may indeed be an idiot.

sfer: You should totally be a mod, dude.

gorie: I bet you voted no because you did not want to read people being mean which would make you sad.

BM: Eh, if I really wanted to read the mod forum, I'd just ask NLSoldier to get one of his many mod buddies to show me.

rt: "eld, you have no idea what you are missing... the mod forum is like oot x10... i am always refreshing it for new drama." YES, THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!! ALL THESE OTHER LYING POS MODS ARE SAYING IT'S NOT INTERESTING AND THERE'S NOT MUCH EXCITEMENT, BUT I KNEW THAT WAS A LIE!!!! THANK YOU, RT, YOU ARE THE ONLY MOD I CAN TRUST!!!!

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]

sfer: You should totally be a mod, dude.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't be a mod for the reasons I suspect you wouldn't be a mod. The forums are fun when I can feel like my involvement is minimal. And be a schmuck.

Also, I'd totally be a crappy mod. I'm a vindictive [censored] who holds grudges just to feel alive.

[Dids]

Diablo,

I promise that I'm just as much of an idiot in the mod forum as I am elsewhere!

I think making it open would be interesting. To me, the more voices we can have in a discussion, the better. IMO, the best thing about astro being an OOT mod was that he brings his considerable insight into non-oot specific matters.

[BeerMoney]

WTF, are you SFER? I axed about where you had gone and no one [censored] answered me. OK, cool. I like your location.

[samjjones]

If the mod forum were "Laguna Beach", who is Kristin? Who is LC? Who is Talan? Who is Jason? Thank you in advance for answering this important question!

[poker1O1]

[ QUOTE ]
I voted no because it's a privaledge the mods have earned.
But while we're on the subject of mods, I'm curious how to become one (other than being devoted to the site).

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm still interested in this, can someone help me out? I'm not saying I qualify by any means, I'm just curious as to how I could.

[Mat Sklansky]

if there is a perceived need for a moderator, it will most likely be brought up in that forum. there will usually be some boring discussion about the perception within the moderator forum, which will remain hidden despite poll results. then people are nominated, a short list is agreed upon, and someone contacts them. if the nominated parties are interested, they contact me and i turn them green.

Right now I think we have more than enough moderators, but if an individual contacts me with a desire to be in a spot that makes sense to me, there will usually be some boring discussion about the perception within the...

[tdarko]

I would think M. Sklanksy would be Trey Phillips.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
Jared,

I don't really care one way or the other, but I don't think your arguments really hold water given the number of random people who are now mods. I don't know who half the guys in green are and some are f'in idiots, so I have a hard time believing they are more qualified to make such judgements than many other 2+2 members.

[/ QUOTE ]

A good middle gorund might be to make it viewable to anyone active on this site prior to 9/10/02.

[BluffTHIS!]

Mat,

I think what you need to do is to put a temporary link to the mod forum in the list of links and give us read only access for maybe 3 days. So we can see what all the hubabaloo is all about. And then reset the poll in this thread so all those who voted yes but then found out they would be bored out of their mind if they actually bothered to read the mod forum regularly can then change their votes to no.

Not letting us see this first before we vote is like being asked to agree to an arranged marriage without first seeing if you are getting a hottie or some old beyond her years skank crak hoe.

[doug funnie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see a screenshot of the mod forum, just to prove it actually exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/3872/modforum0sm.th.jpg (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=modforum0sm.jpg)

[/ QUOTE ]



AHAHAHAHAHAHA GOOGLE AND MICROSOFT

[rt1]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm still interested in this, can someone help me out? I'm not saying I qualify by any means, I'm just curious as to how I could.

[/ QUOTE ]

i got mine the old fassion way... try it, it works /images/graemlins/wink.gif

in all honestly i think the mod forum should be open, but the mods will still need a closed forum for places where they can move banned/trouble threads.

we would also need an 'open mod forum' where the peons... err... regular users could talk about the topics in the mod forum.

oh man, if this ever were to take place it would be a total trainwreck... LETS DO IT.

[wacki]

I think making the mod forum viewable is a good idea. I don't care.

Only 1 problem is that is where we dump all of the threads that 2p2 doesn't want associated with 2p2. Those threads act as examples. So their existence serves a purpose which the mods to see and not the general public/advertisers. It also acts like a recycle bin to fix mistakenly "deleted" threads.

[daryn]

mat,

just one quick question. is it customary for mods (Lloyd) to reproduce PM's (PRIVATE MESSAGES) sent to them in the mod forum for all mods to see? just wondering.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is really nothing interesting in the mod forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

The identity of Commodus is in there

[/ QUOTE ]

*yawn*

this is hardly news

Yugoslav

[Mike E. Vegas]

[ QUOTE ]
If the mod forum were "Laguna Beach", who is Kristin? Who is LC? Who is Talan? Who is Jason? Thank you in advance for answering this important question!

[/ QUOTE ]

I too want to see these answers.

[Victor]

i think its a terrible idea. do you realize how many "omg mods are talking about doing this/that its a terrilbe idea blah blah blah" threads we would get across all forums.?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
i think its a terrible idea. do you realize how many "omg mods are talking about doing this/that its a terrilbe idea blah blah blah" threads we would get across all forums.?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why Mat's "forum to discuss the mod forum" idea is so brilliant. Also make that the residence of any mod bashing/suggestion threads and it would be the #2 traffic forum on 2+2 overnight.

[Vavavoom]

Diablo...

A classic controversial post...

Me likey...

I would like to see what goes on.....Maybe if it was made viewable for one weekend a monthj or something....So that it could continue to be used for its original purpose....



Vava

[The Truth]

[ QUOTE ]

I voted no. Seems to make sense that it would be private.

Diablo, why don't you just go greeen?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am pretty sure Eld is actually a shill for the mods in some way. He wouldn't have as much influence as a leader of the masses if he were green, it would seperate him from us.

blake

Edit to add: He may not be a shill and instead be some kind of revolutionary wanting to overthrow the skalansky brothers. Time will tell.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see a screenshot of the mod forum, just to prove it actually exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/3872/modforum0sm.th.jpg (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=modforum0sm.jpg)

[/ QUOTE ]

I voted your image a "7".

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see a screenshot of the mod forum, just to prove it actually exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/3872/modforum0sm.th.jpg (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=modforum0sm.jpg)

[/ QUOTE ]

I voted your image a "7".

[/ QUOTE ]

so uhh....is that ur IP address at the bottom /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[elrudo]

No.

Dont let the inmates run the asylum.

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see a screenshot of the mod forum, just to prove it actually exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/3872/modforum0sm.th.jpg (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=modforum0sm.jpg)

[/ QUOTE ]

I voted your image a "7".

[/ QUOTE ]

so uhh....is that ur IP address at the bottom /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No, that's 2+2's IP over at, apparently, Rackspace.

>whois 69.20.77.98
Rackspace.com, Ltd. RSPC-NET-4 (NET-69-20-0-0-1)
69.20.0.0 - 69.20.127.255
Express Auto Parts, Inc. RSPC-47674-1082573132 (NET-69-20-77-96-1)
69.20.77.96 - 69.20.77.103

# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2006-04-04 19:10

I like how he runs adblock, though. Nice.

~D

[Mike Haven]

[ QUOTE ]
i'd like to search for my name in the mod forum and see what if anything comes up


[/ QUOTE ]

I did a search for you, daryn, and you'll be pleased to hear there are zero mentions of you in there.

[tuq]

Yeah, it looks like Evan gives good Firefox. StumbleUpon, the weather one, Adblock. I may need to look into this RoboForm thing. And apparently he makes enough bank/is sedentary enough that he uses Delivery.com. I think their surcharge would annoy me too much. Could use a few extra tabs at the top near the address bar though (new tab, history, downloads). All in all, B+.

Another question is, is Evan using Adblock to block the ads on 2+2?

Oh yeah, and opening up the mod forum would likely lead to a cascade of threads loaded with people bitching about what the mod says. It would take a whole fleet of whambuli to clean that mess up. But, since OOT is all about train wrecks and that has real potential, I voted "yes".

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'd like to search for my name in the mod forum and see what if anything comes up


[/ QUOTE ]

I did a search for you, daryn, and you'll be pleased to hear there are zero mentions of you in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot he's referred to as Doreen there. (I keed, I keed).

[daryn]

seriously though how is preproducing private messages sent to moderators OK in the mod forum? it's not like he was using it as an example of me insulting him or saying something that could get me banned.

i think at least 75% of the mods totally blow and are bad for 2+2

[Dids]

A lot of what the mod forum does is "this is what happened, how should I move forward". Sometimes cutting and pasting a PM is what that involves.

FWIW daryn, you're blaming the wrong people for your situation. Talk to the people that set the policy, not those of us who have to enforce them.

[AEKDBet]

“Let us never forget that government is ourselves and not an alien power over us. The ultimate rulers of our democracy are not a President and senators and congressmen and government officials, but the voters of this country.”
- Franklin D. Roosevelt


We voted, now open up.
<font color="white">Government. Internet-forum. I see no difference. </font>

[daryn]

dids i have no beef w/ lloyd, i understand he is just following policy, even though he seems a bit nazi-ish! yet, wow.. posting PRIVATE MESSAGE for all, weaksauce in my opinion.

[junglewarfare]

I think it's ridiculous how the mods are stalling El Diablo's passionate quest to uncover the truth behind the dark underworld of 2p2 modding. I am pretty sure right now they are shredding documents and erasing evidence of their criminal mischief. The mod forum should be made viewable today!

[El Diablo]

daryn: I agree that reproducing PMs in a semi-public forum (given that there are like 200 mods now) is completely inappropriate.

Evan: I do not think it is appropriate for mods of this site to use AdBlock on the site.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
if there is a perceived need for a moderator, it will most likely be brought up in that forum. there will usually be some boring discussion about the perception within the moderator forum, which will remain hidden despite poll results. then people are nominated, a short list is agreed upon, and someone contacts them. if the nominated parties are interested, they contact me and i turn them green.

Right now I think we have more than enough moderators, but if an individual contacts me with a desire to be in a spot that makes sense to me, there will usually be some boring discussion about the perception within the...

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to be the mod for the 'discuss the mod forum forum'. If possible, i would also like there to be a private forum just for the moderaters of the 'discuss the mod forum forum'. Hopefully, El D won't request public access to the mods of the 'discuss the mod forum forum' forum.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
stabn,

OK, sounds like absolutely no reason not to make it read-only visible to all then!

[/ QUOTE ]

a lot of the non-intersting stuff may then get posted and reproduced in other forums. i think having the mods make decisions is part of the point of having them. i can't think of anything interesting ive seen in the mod forum besides picking a new mod or something.

all the MAJOR issues that come up are discussed in public b/c the site's users feelings are necessary to carry out the action (except that random day when the entire site changed and then changed back...i didn't know that was gunna happen).

anyways, its probably an inconsequential decision either way, but it SURE will create some needless threads in other forums from making the mod forum public b/c people will feel the need to reproduce threads that could do w/o reproduction (i.e. they are fine where they are and dont need everybody talking about them)

im fine either way but i think based on what ive seen, there is no real big benefit from the site's perspective for making the mod forum public...but there could be problems with traffic and useless posts increasing greatly if it's made read-only public (ie. POSTERX will copy and paste some fo the stuff in there in a new thread in OOT or NVG or something)

Barron

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
mat,

just one quick question. is it customary for mods (Lloyd) to reproduce PM's (PRIVATE MESSAGES) sent to them in the mod forum for all mods to see? just wondering.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa. This happened? That's incredibly tacky.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

[ QUOTE ]
The notion that mods are better equipped than many non-mods at policy-making for the forums is dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

holla back

[astroglide]

if the mod forum is opened, i think almost everything you "want to see" will be conversed about with private messages

[El Diablo]

Dcifr,

"i think having the mods make decisions is part of the point of having them."

Do you think the mods are better at making decisions than the best responses from posters in an open thread?

"there could be problems with traffic and useless posts increasing greatly "

Yeah, it sounds like 2+2 would cringe at the idea of more traffic being generated. WTF?

The obvious great solution here is to:

1) Make the mod forum publicly viewable.
2) Have a "holding pen" that is restricted viewing for threads that need to be potentially deleted/removed.
3) Have a new "Mod Forum Discussion" forum.

[El Diablo]

astro,

Once my awesome 3-step plan is put in place (I believe Mat will see the inspired awesomeness of it), in the Mod Forum Discussion we will be able to discuss the relative merits of Mods and people will be able to make cases for why they would be a better mod. So, mods will have to step up and show how they deserve to be mods. This will result in awesome, well thought out modding decisions and discussion, elevating the quality of this entire site.

Thanks again to Tony Paladino for coming up w/ this great idea. I had never even considered this until his post, so please don't give me credit for the key point behind this awesome idea, it was all Tony.

[El Diablo]

astro,

That's OK, as it's apparently cool to reproduce PMs in the mod forum!

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Evan: I do not think it is appropriate for mods of this site to use AdBlock on the site.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're talking to the wrong mod. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=exchange&amp;Number=3822801&amp;S earchpage=1&amp;Main=3822801&amp;Words=-re%3A+%2Bfirefox+astroglide&amp;topic=&amp;Search=true#Pos t3822801)

[El Diablo]

Evan,

OK, I don't want this thread to get off track, so let's end this subthread.

Have you read my awesome 3-step plan for mod forum?

[KingDan]

How'd you get your quick reply box so big?

[diebitter]

I have no problem personally with the mod forum being opened, as long as the threads we've deliberately moved off a forum aren't visible. But I sure as hell wouldn't use it again for stuff like getting a consensus from fellow mods.

I get enough crap from posters without having discussions in there nitpicked apart. And don't kid yourself, every decision a mod makes has some supporters and some haters. You seriously can't please everyone.

So the downside would be the ability to get consensus about difficult or borderline decisions would be washed down the pan, and we'd all be more isolated in that decision process, and make the banning/suspending/action less consistent site wide.

Again, it does sound like I'm stressing the negative here, but seriously, I don't really care if it is opened up. I'd quite like to hear any realistic good side to it, though, other than satisfying curiousity.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Evan,

OK, I don't want this thread to get off track, so let's end this subthread.

Have you read my awesome 3-step plan for mod forum?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yea, sounds like a real kick ass lower class revolution. If it's as good as it looks on paper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_marx) we're in the kill zone!

[diebitter]

Also, I personally don't reproduce PMs without asking whether I can. I'm pretty sure I never have (almost 100% certain). When I've asked a poster to defend their action or similar, I've warned that what they say may be reproduced in the mod forum, when that's happened, so they are aware of this before replying.


I would though, if I couldn't get hold of the sender and the points made are key to a decision and it was urgent or something (I think it's better to reproduce than paraphrase in such situations, as this is fairer to the person who posted to you). It's not something to do lightly though, IMO.

[El Diablo]

db,

"as long as the threads we've deliberately moved off a forum aren't visible."

Addressed in my 3-step plan.

"But I sure as hell wouldn't use it again for stuff like getting a consensus from fellow mods."

WTF? See my 3-step plan for why this would make this even better for achieving concensus. Mods would have to actually stand behind their arguments!

"I get enough crap from posters"

Who cares? It's just an Internet forum, who cares if you get crap from anonymous randoms?

"every decision a mod makes has some supporters and some haters. You seriously can't please everyone."

Again, who cares!?

"So the downside would be the ability to get consensus about difficult or borderline decisions would be washed down the pan, and we'd all be more isolated in that decision process, and make the banning/suspending/action less consistent site wide."

3-step plan will make this far MORE consistent and good.

"I'd quite like to hear any realistic good side to it, though, other than satisfying curiousity. "

Please see 3-step plan!

[diebitter]

--- El D.

Cmon man, you know that each and every decision would be endlessly picked over, with no obvious way to resolve. So you'd end up making the decision, and then have some person making the decision about the argument about the decision, instead of a person making the decision. and so on. See astro's question about banning trapsetter from OOT, for an example of how it would go.

And the raw truth is: Despite all these points, if I feel someone needs banning or *'ing, I'll do it. I wouldn't take it to a mod forum, if it's gonna be argued over tirelessly. I'm not defending every decision by myself against a stream of relentless questioners. I'd not give a view if asked in a public forum, cos that would be begging to draw attention to yourself, and wasting time defending yourself. Why bother? We do this for free, and I hope try to be responsible, but why be questioned and harangued about it? You'd end up with no mods (or the mods doing it would have to be seriously compulsive).

I'm not really arguing against opening up - I don't care. But I wouldn't care to be a mod if I need to justify every decision. It takes time enough to check stuff as it is, without having to explain yourself through a serious of questions every time.

Just to be clear on this, it's not defending yourself that's the issue, it's the time and effort it would take as one person being questioned by many questioners (some of which will be hostile, I've no doubt).

This sort of scrutiny is like wobbling your tooth to see it's okay. The odd check is fine, but you do it all day, every day, even the best tooth will not withstand it, and fall out.

Bottom line: This course is a ticket to shedding mods, cos no one would want to have the job.

[samjjones]

I kinda like the idea of a super secret OOT forum where only pre-approved "elite" members can post. Like the freemasons or something.

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
I kinda like the idea of a super secret OOT forum where only pre-approved "elite" members can post. Like the freemasons or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

who says there isn't? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Nick B.]

Being a mod sure must be tough. I wonder what would happen if a mod didn't do anything?

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Being a mod sure must be tough. I wonder what would happen if a mod didn't do anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

All of the forums would be like the Sporting Events forum then, for the most part.

[Dominic]

why the hell would I give a damn over what the mods have to say to one another?

[eviljeff]

I hear that in the Mod Forum if you type in "[censored]" it will replace it with a swear word

[El Diablo]

db,

"Just to be clear on this, it's not defending yourself that's the issue, it's the time and effort it would take as one person being questioned by many questioners (some of which will be hostile, I've no doubt). "

I don't disagree that there would be all sorts of idiotic discussion in the Mod Forum Discussion discussion forum, but who cares? Why are you worried about defending yourself from random idiots questioning? Mods who made good posts in the mod forum would be recognized as such by the smart posters in the Mod Forum Discussion discussion forum.

"See astro's question about banning trapsetter from OOT, for an example of how it would go."

Exactly. How much time or bother has that been for astro?

"But I wouldn't care to be a mod if I need to justify every decision."

You wouldn't need to justify anything any more than you already do. You'd just need to stand by your decisions knowing that your reasoning would be visible to a wider audience.

[Phil153]

Can somebody give me cliff notes? I'm guessing this is all a big prank, right? No one's seriously considering opening the mod forum.

Just in case it isn't: The idea is ridiculous. Mods need a place to discuss policies and issues in private without being scrutnized by the people they're moderating. Candid and open discussion is necessary for a healthy management team and you can't have that with the plebs looking on, especially over sensitive or controversial issues (e.g. banning ZeeJustin, dealing with trolls). El D thinks it will force mods to defend and rationalize their positions, however I think candid discussions are more important than a self conscious ones.

There is already enough public scrutiny of mods and policy issues, the mod forum is just an area for private discussion and should stay that way.

[The DaveR]

Provide a link to Awesome-Three-Step-Plan pls!

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
db,

"Just to be clear on this, it's not defending yourself that's the issue, it's the time and effort it would take as one person being questioned by many questioners (some of which will be hostile, I've no doubt). "

I don't disagree that there would be all sorts of idiotic discussion in the Mod Forum Discussion discussion forum, but who cares? Why are you worried about defending yourself from random idiots questioning? Mods who made good posts in the mod forum would be recognized as such by the smart posters in the Mod Forum Discussion discussion forum.

"See astro's question about banning trapsetter from OOT, for an example of how it would go."

Exactly. How much time or bother has that been for astro?

"But I wouldn't care to be a mod if I need to justify every decision."

You wouldn't need to justify anything any more than you already do. You'd just need to stand by your decisions knowing that your reasoning would be visible to a wider audience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe. To be honest, what I've said is how I think it would really be. I can't be sure that's how it'll be until it happened. I think you also couldn't be sure till it happened either. If it happens and mods can't handle it, then they quit. If they can handle it, fine.

And decisions: remember, one poster's asshat is another poster's hero. So any ban is gonna cause outrage to someone, somewhere.

significant risk (losing mods, and finding replacements) for not much reward. And there I was, thinking you were risk-averse in your thinking when it came to 2+2 /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I've not much more to say on this - despite all my dire doom on it - I really don't mind if it happened or not - I was just laying down for you how I'd feel/be if it happened and how I'd change my mod behaviour if it did. This I hope gives you at least one mod's perspective on it. I hope it helped some to see it from a mod's side.

nightynight all. Have fun, your crazy kids!

[Nick B.]

"significant risk (losing mods)"

Only the terrible mods would quit. Do you really think there is a shortage of adequate posters that could be mods. You make it sound like it is so tough to be a mod.

[El Diablo]

sfer,

"The obvious great solution here is to:

1) Make the mod forum publicly viewable.
2) Have a "holding pen" that is restricted viewing for threads that need to be potentially deleted/removed.
3) Have a new "Mod Forum Discussion" forum. "

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]

3) Have a new "Mod Forum Discussion" forum. "

[/ QUOTE ]

This forum would rule. Can Mod girlfriends be discussed in said forum?

[xorbie]

this thread is long and boring but as to reproducing PM's, i feel it is ok when it is clear that the mod is acting in mod capacity, and obviously not ok if it's a private message that happens to be to a mod.

i.e. if i send someone a PM saying "hey in thread XX you're getting a bit heated, might wanna take it down a notch" and they respond "[censored] you douchebag" or even "i have a question about the rules blah blah blah?" i would feel fine reproducing that in the mod forum.

[El Diablo]

Phil: WTF? These are random members of an Internet forum, not the Board of Directors of a Fortune 50 company or the Cabinet.

db: Everything you say is only a problem if mods are saying stuff in the mod forum they are unwilling to stand behind publicly.

Nick: Exactly, though I would say "terrible or incredibly oversensitive." Sponger and TP are apparently two of what I'm sure are many who have volunteered their services but have not been used.

[El Diablo]

Daver,

"This forum would rule. Can Mod girlfriends be discussed in said forum? "

Seems like that would be the most appropriate forum for that discussion.

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
this thread is long and boring but as to reproducing PM's, i feel it is ok when it is clear that the mod is acting in mod capacity, and obviously not ok if it's a private message that happens to be to a mod.

i.e. if i send someone a PM saying "hey in thread XX you're getting a bit heated, might wanna take it down a notch" and they respond "[censored] you douchebag" or even "i have a question about the rules blah blah blah?" i would feel fine reproducing that in the mod forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that any PMs should be reproduced only with the consent of the sender.

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
db: Everything you say is only a problem if mods are saying stuff in the mod forum they are unwilling to stand behind publicly.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but it's not easy to say 'X is an asshat, I've temp-banned him, any objections if I move it to permaban?' and rationally justify it to everyone's satisfaction.

Every fan of X will crawl out the woodwork and ask for why I think this. I'd point to threads showing it, and they'd say 'but that's hilarious, you [censored]!' and so on. Eventually, it'd be 'well, I banned him for thread Y, which you can't see'. They say 'But he's awesome and your a douche!'

Or you can ignore it, which makes such a forum useless.

Where exactly does either of these get us?

Is your point just to allow this forum to foster mod fan/hate clubs?

Cos I'd be cool with that, if that's all it's about.

[JWH]

Alot of mods IMO have a problem with making decisions like banning people or removing threads without first getting it looked and "approved" by others. Again IMO, part of being worthy of being a mod means you have the good judgement to be able to make these types of decisions on your own, without having to worry about what getting nitpicked. Additionally part of being a poster worthy of being a mod should require you to be open to seeing opposing viewpoints, taking heat and being able to subsequently and publically admit when you're wrong and reverse your decision.

Making the mod forum public would push moderating in this direction.

The mod forum is on an ongoing basis the hottest spot on 2+2 for drama and bickering, including mods asking for other mods to be fired. Good times for all

[katyseagull]

[ QUOTE ]
Additionally part of being a poster worthy of being a mod should require you to be open to seeing opposing viewpoints, taking heat and being able to subsequently and publically admit when you're wrong and reverse your decision.



[/ QUOTE ]

Publically admitting you're wrong and reversing your decision sounds like an invite for people to call for your mod head.

With so many people, wouldn't this kind of debate just lead to a quagmire? Reminds me of when my family gets together and everyone wants to be heard. What a nightmare.

[shemp]

"Yeah, but it's not easy to say 'X is an asshat, I've temp-banned him, any objections if I move it to permaban?' and rationally justify it to everyone's satisfaction."

This is the thing I can't understand -- and the trapsetter thing is a good example. He has no stars and hasn't broken any rules that I can find, but he may be banned because he's a fool. I thot mods enforced policy rather than decided they've and the forum had seen enough of some clown.

[astroglide]

banning trapsetter was not put on the table, shemp.

furthermore, oot policy is often created by me alone (recent example: the takeback rule). i only tend to make things official in the rules if they occur frequently. if i think an action is reasonable and justified, i will take it regardless of whether or not it is in the oot rules or the 2+2 tos.

[El Diablo]

db: See JWH's post. The Mod Forum Discussion discussion forum would simply be a place where anyone could comment on things they see in the Mod Forum. If a mod wants to add add'l background to something about him that's fine, but there would definitely be no requirement for that. You seem to be missing the point here a bit. Mod Forum would stay unchanged. There would simply be an add'l forum where people could comment on things they see in that forum.

katy: "With so many people, wouldn't this kind of debate just lead to a quagmire?" Yes, if the mod forum were made public and all 2+2 policy decisions required consensus of the whole forum, absolutely. But what is being discussed is simply a forum where people can voice their opinions, not for decision-making. This would be a positive for mods, as they would have the benefit of many more opinions/perspectives regarding issues.

[El Diablo]

All,

Let me simplify this for everyone. Making the mod forum viewable by all is like having C-SPAN for 2+2. That's all.

[Hoi Polloi]

[ QUOTE ]
...I imagine it genuinely is very boring.

[/ QUOTE ]

More boring than OOT? And here we are!

[shemp]

astro,

You are describing the exercise of authority, not creation or enforcement of policy. I accept that there will always be gray where mod discretion is relied upon -- you don't need to remind me.

The exercise in this case doesn't appear guided by what helps 2+2 grow and generate traffic, but rather removing a fool because he is a fool. Maybe that's a good thing...

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
All,

Let me simplify this for everyone. Making the mod forum viewable by all is like having C-SPAN for 2+2. That's all.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is a good analogy.


I also like the title 'Mod Forum Discussion Discussion Forum' and truly believe the title alone is one of the reasons (albeit perhaps a small one) why you like the idea so much.


The tone of the mod-forum would definitely change if it were opened to the public though.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think its a terrible idea. do you realize how many "omg mods are talking about doing this/that its a terrilbe idea blah blah blah" threads we would get across all forums.?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why Mat's "forum to discuss the mod forum" idea is so brilliant. Also make that the residence of any mod bashing/suggestion threads and it would be the #2 traffic forum on 2+2 overnight.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed.

[El Diablo]

MB,

I also like the fact that there would be a Mod Forum Discussion discussion forum mod.

[Eurotrash]

[ QUOTE ]
MB,

I also like the fact that there would be a Mod Forum Discussion discussion forum mod.

[/ QUOTE ]


they'd just assign one of the edit/deletion-happy moderators (not that they exist /images/graemlins/blush.gif) to this forum

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
MB,

I also like the fact that there would be a Mod Forum Discussion discussion forum mod.

[/ QUOTE ]

But then we'd have to worry about their abusing their power in any threads about them in that forum. Perhaps this calls for a mod forum discussion forum mod discussion forum.

[MicroBob]

Big-time LOL at that.


I nominate myself for 'Mod Forum Discussion discussion forum mod'.


1. I like the title.

2. And it actually relates to my current role in 'about the forums/suggestions' where discussion of mods is now allowed (recent policy change).

3. Also please note that my first name is a palindrome as is MFDDFM.

[Phil153]

Eurotrash is so money. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Eurotrash]

[ QUOTE ]
Eurotrash is so money. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


I was just about to comment, but now I don't even have to /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MicroBob]

Just because I'm volunteering for it doesn't mean I would be the one assigned to it.


But I do think I've done enough editing/deleting in my limited time to warrant consideration for the position.

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because I'm volunteering for it doesn't mean I would be the one assigned to it.


But I do think I've done enough editing/deleting in my limited time to warrant consideration for the position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I nominate dids. I don't think your editing/deleting skills are quite up to the task. Sorry man.

[Tony_P]

[ QUOTE ]
MB,

I also like the fact that there would be a Mod Forum Discussion discussion forum mod.

[/ QUOTE ]

ditto

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
All,

Let me simplify this for everyone. Making the mod forum viewable by all is like having C-SPAN for 2+2. That's all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your analogy is a little off. C-SPAN covers Congress which makes law. Moderators mostly enforce the rules of 2+2. So, a better analogy would be comparing your porposal to televised coverage of the Supreme Court.

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just because I'm volunteering for it doesn't mean I would be the one assigned to it.


But I do think I've done enough editing/deleting in my limited time to warrant consideration for the position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I nominate dids. I don't think your editing/deleting skills are quite up to the task. Sorry man.

[/ QUOTE ]

editing's for pussies. Delete and be damned /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[lapoker17]

[ QUOTE ]
Making the mod forum viewable by all is like having C-SPAN for 2+2. That's all.


[/ QUOTE ]

now i can understand all this excitement.

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All,

Let me simplify this for everyone. Making the mod forum viewable by all is like having C-SPAN for 2+2. That's all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your analogy is a little off. C-SPAN covers Congress which makes law. Moderators mostly enforce the rules of 2+2. So, a better analogy would be comparing your porposal to televised coverage of the Supreme Court.

[/ QUOTE ]

i AM the law.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y151/stabn/dredd.jpg

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]


i AM the law.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y151/stabn/dredd.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

if this is the avatar for the new mod for the mfmfmf forum (or whatever it's called), I want in. And I promise never to actually go in it and read any of it /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[stabn]

It would have been a great avatar for [censored].

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
MB,

I also like the fact that there would be a Mod Forum Discussion discussion forum mod.

[/ QUOTE ]

gold

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
All,

Let me simplify this for everyone. Making the mod forum viewable by all is like having C-SPAN for 2+2. That's all.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is totally accurate. Further, no one would care until there was a trainwreck, like some moron banning SpicyF or Clarence Thomas.

[Dids]

DaveR,

I will TOTALLY ban Clarence Thomas.

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
DaveR,

I will TOTALLY ban Clarence Thomas.

[/ QUOTE ]

Delete his soda can thread pls.

[junglewarfare]

El Diablo,

Have you and your other elite poster friends consider a 2p2 forum boycott? I am pretty sure if you rounded up 10 or 15 of the other top strat posters you could get what you want.

[GambleGamble]

*another useless opinion*

I run an office and often have to make decisions on people maintaining employment, promotions, demotions, direction the ofice is going....
...Now imagine the entire office has the ability to witness, overhear, critique, and comment on every decision made, between myself and coroporate, or just what goes inside in my head, how would I run a proficient office, it would be chaos....
....Mods need to have the ability to have a "safe-haven" to discuss anything that arises, without fear of reprisal from the masses....
....Statements have been made about "why say something, you wouldnt want heard it public" everyday we say things we would say to others we dont want people to hear, I have an office of 80% [censored] retards and I often state mu displeasure to my management with the expectation this will not be repeated or heard by others...

....remember you always want what you can't have, the mod forum is for mods only therefore we want to see it....

...get over it, lets get back to real OOT talk

...and why the [censored] has OOT sucked the last couple days?

[Jihad]

[ QUOTE ]
Blarg,

Who needs to worry about being politically correct? If a moderator thinks someone is a douchebag but isn't willing to say so to their face, I don't see the need for a private forum where they can talk sht about that person.

[/ QUOTE ]

El Diablo,

I know you're a business man or entrepeneur, but I always pictured you as someone with decent management experience. It would surprise me that anybody with real management/leadership experience would not understand the importance of being able to discuss certain issues, specifically those pertaining to individuals, in private. I think that has a direct correlation to the entire twoplustwo forum, and is one of the reasons that this is probably one of the best run public forums on the entire internet.

-Jihad

[shemp]

"Now imagine the entire office has the ability to witness [...] what goes inside in my head"

That would be so trippy. And scary. Man. Woah.

[Jihad]

[ QUOTE ]

...and why the [censored] has OOT sucked the last couple days?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm anti-FYP, so I'll just say that OOT has sucked since somewhere around the beginning of March, capped off by the gross abuse of the "ask &lt;pro&gt;" threads.

[bigt2k4]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if there is anyone who voted No who is not a mod. I went with yes but I don't really care, I imagine it genuinely is very boring.

[/ QUOTE ]
I voted no, El Diablo is on crack for suggesting this, I once thought he was extremely intelligent, but now I think he is just pretty intelligent.

Where would the paxil thread be put while "under repairs"?

[The DaveR]

Good analogy. For something else.

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blarg,

Who needs to worry about being politically correct? If a moderator thinks someone is a douchebag but isn't willing to say so to their face, I don't see the need for a private forum where they can talk sht about that person.

[/ QUOTE ]

El Diablo,

I know you're a business man or entrepeneur, but I always pictured you as someone with decent management experience. It would surprise me that anybody with real management/leadership experience would not understand the importance of being able to discuss certain issues, specifically those pertaining to individuals, in private. I think that has a direct correlation to the entire twoplustwo forum, and is one of the reasons that this is probably one of the best run public forums on the entire internet.

-Jihad

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a difference between a hierarchical organization with clear goals, like making money, and a group of people with an interest in poker and access to the web.

[disjunction]

I've been struggling over this important issue over the last day. Answers aren't always easy, and the most hastily formed opinions aren't worthwhile. I slept, worked, ate. I wondered. I dreamed.

Now 2+2 is a website, let there be no doubt about that. A wonderful, beautiful website. 2+2 is a dream. I've used that word once in this post already, but I'll use it again, 2+2 is a dream.

And in this dream there are forums. Places of discussion, places of books, science, finance, sports betting. Places where we dream together. Then there's OOT, a place where anybody can talk about anything, provided that the anything is ok to Mat Sklansky and isn't in the form of a poll. A place to be free.

But freedom has its price, doesn't it always? When people are too free, they post crap threads, respond with crap replies. We had become shackled by our own freedoms.

So twoplustwo came up with moderators. Helping hands, guides who could save us from our own words and Yankees threads. Appointed officials, with our best interests at hearts. Enlightened despots they are.

And they have a forum, to themselves, where they chat and drink ambrosia. The forum is closed, the curtain is drawn. There are some things, they feel, that the everyday man is not meant to know.

But they are not gods. They post with us, laugh with us, share our triumphs and sorrows, the only difference is that their name is in green.

And who are the rest of us? Free men, dreamers. Wise men, thinkers. Is it not natural for us to want to know what's behind the curtain? We find it hard to believe that there are some things we are not meant to dream, some thoughts we are not meant to hear. We want to know what's there. We've grown up. We ask ourselves, who are these men in green to rule us?

Now no forum is a corporate board room. Corporate board rooms do not contain dreamers. It is not a palace. Palaces do not represent the people. It is most certainly not perfect, because perfect forums do not contain arguments.

And so it has been suggested we the common folk should not see this forum, for two reasons. One -- we were not meant to know. Two -- It might disillusion us.

True, we may not be meant to know. Perhaps we are not ready to handle the content. Perhaps when the curtain is lifted, our faces will melt, like in The Raiders of the Lost Ark. That would suck. But perhaps not. Perhaps there are more wonders in that forum than we can possibly imagine, and perhaps they can be ours if we only dare to imagine.

As for disillusionment, well that's a chance one always takes. If we are truly to be free, we must risk the consequences of freedom. We must be men.

I'm not a religious man, but I don't think it's a coincidence that the plan has exactly three parts. I beseech the twoplustwo powers: Let our fate be our own. Let our path be the one we choose for ourselves. If we can not handle the truth, it is our failing, not yours. But we must be allowed to try. I beseech you, let us be free.

[MicroBob]

This may be the most amazing post I have ever read on 2+2.

BrownThumb eat your heart out!!

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All,

Let me simplify this for everyone. Making the mod forum viewable by all is like having C-SPAN for 2+2. That's all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your analogy is a little off. C-SPAN covers Congress which makes law. Moderators mostly enforce the rules of 2+2. So, a better analogy would be comparing your porposal to televised coverage of the Supreme Court.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why you've lost a lot of popularity.

[Jihad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blarg,

Who needs to worry about being politically correct? If a moderator thinks someone is a douchebag but isn't willing to say so to their face, I don't see the need for a private forum where they can talk sht about that person.

[/ QUOTE ]

El Diablo,

I know you're a business man or entrepeneur, but I always pictured you as someone with decent management experience. It would surprise me that anybody with real management/leadership experience would not understand the importance of being able to discuss certain issues, specifically those pertaining to individuals, in private. I think that has a direct correlation to the entire twoplustwo forum, and is one of the reasons that this is probably one of the best run public forums on the entire internet.

-Jihad

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a difference between a hierarchical organization with clear goals, like making money, and a group of people with an interest in poker and access to the web.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is a giant and very obvious difference. However, for the sake of this argument, there is striking similarities, especially with respect to discussion of specific posters.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MB,

I also like the fact that there would be a Mod Forum Discussion discussion forum mod.

[/ QUOTE ]

gold

[/ QUOTE ]

it was funnier when i said it 50 posts ago.

[El Diablo]

jw: I have no desire to set policy here. If I did, I'd try to be a mod or something. I merely suggest things that I think are good ideas. As long as 2+2 is a place I enjoy coming, I'll keep coming here. If it stops being that, I'll go somewhere else. If I want a forum that runs exactly how I think an ideal forum should run, I'll go start my own forum, but that's not a priority for me right now.

Jihad, Gamble: I don't consider the 2+2 forum moderators to have very much at all in common with a business management team. I agree that Mat/Mason/David/etc have a need to discuss things privately. I can't think of anything that the mod group really needs privacy to discuss.

[Tony_P]

crappy thread move

[Razor]

[ QUOTE ]
This may be the most amazing post I have ever read on 2+2.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must not have read Monty Cantsin's "How did your mad poker skillz0rs develop over time?" post.

[El Diablo]

Soss: Wrong. It's not the concept that's humorous, it's the wording.

dis: Preach on, brother.

big: That is addressed in my awesome 3-point plan.

[El Diablo]

All,

OMFG I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS THREAD WAS MOVED!!!!!!!!!!

[chim17]

[ QUOTE ]
All,

OMFG I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS THREAD WAS MOVED!!!!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I could see the talk about this thread in the mod forum!

[Mat Sklansky]

I moved it. Isn't this the forum where we discuss issues like this?

The mod forum will remain hidden as long as I feel the need for volunteer moderators and want to be able to discuss things with them without having the distraction of them knowing there's an audience.

[Tony_P]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All,

OMFG I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS THREAD WAS MOVED!!!!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I could see the talk about this thread in the mod forum!

[/ QUOTE ]

ask green

[El Diablo]

Mat,

Please note my response did not say that the thread move was inappropriate or wrong. However, given your stance on A&amp;E posts being allowed in both OOT and the proprosed A&amp;E forum, I figured you would feel similarly about 2+2 forum discussion.

Also, please give some consideration to the truly democratic stance of making the mod forum viewable. Yes, there might be minor amounts of pain there, but that is the price we must pay to have a truly free society! I really see you as the George Washington of 2+2, Mat, and this would only solidify my belief in that!

[Mike Haven]

This concept has reminders of the philosophy of Marx:

"If the Mods' Forum was viewable by me, I wouldn't want to be able to see it."

[Sniper]

ElD, your wanting to make the mod forum viewable, is truly inconsistent with your stance with regard to PMs being private... because simply at its core the mod forum is nothing more than a mass PM facility for the Mods.

[BluffTHIS!]

Mat,

I think a clear way to calm down El D is to give him green status for 1 week as a mod without portfolio, and let him rampage through the mod forum and report back to us here about it. One week from now when he reverts to normal status, he will find a new toy to play with and this thread will die.

[Mat Sklansky]

[ QUOTE ]
ElD, your wanting to make the mod forum viewable, is truly inconsistent with your stance with regard to PMs being private... because simply at its core the mod forum is nothing more than a mass PM facility for the Mods.

[/ QUOTE ]

In fact this is why it was created. I believe it was wacki's idea

[Mat Sklansky]

I still think an additional forum would be to the benefit of all. How 'bout an El Diablo forum?

[El Diablo]

Sniper: Wrong.

Mat: No way man, WAY too much responsibility there!

[Mat Sklansky]

Why too much responsibility? One or more moderators could man it. You would simply be the man in charge of topics.

[BluffTHIS!]

Mat,

I think you should start a thread and poll in the mod forum on what custom title to give El D, and then implement the mod consensus choice. A man with 19K+ posts shouldn't still be stuck on "Carpal\Tunnel".

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Mat,

I think you should start a thread and poll in the mod forum on what custom title to give El D, and then implement the mod consensus choice. A man with 19K+ posts shouldn't still be stuck on "Carpal\Tunnel".

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of 10k+ posters have the Carpal Tunnel title icluding El Diablo, Clarkmeister, andyfox, and myself. In fact, it seems the olderr posters are the ones who least want a title.

[BluffTHIS!]

Dynasty,

El D's preferences weren't a part of my suggestion.

[Eurotrash]

[ QUOTE ]
All,

OMFG I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS THREAD WAS MOVED!!!!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]


I think the thread was moved to cut down on the amount of views, Diablo. they knew that if they moved it from OOT to a low-traffic forum, many of the casual 2p2 readers would not see it and join your revolution.

they're trying to keep you down.

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blarg,

Who needs to worry about being politically correct? If a moderator thinks someone is a douchebag but isn't willing to say so to their face, I don't see the need for a private forum where they can talk sht about that person.

[/ QUOTE ]

El Diablo,

I know you're a business man or entrepeneur, but I always pictured you as someone with decent management experience. It would surprise me that anybody with real management/leadership experience would not understand the importance of being able to discuss certain issues, specifically those pertaining to individuals, in private. I think that has a direct correlation to the entire twoplustwo forum, and is one of the reasons that this is probably one of the best run public forums on the entire internet.

-Jihad

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a difference between a hierarchical organization with clear goals, like making money, and a group of people with an interest in poker and access to the web.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is a giant and very obvious difference. However, for the sake of this argument, there is striking similarities, especially with respect to discussion of specific posters.

[/ QUOTE ]


For the sake of this argument, it doesn't apply. Secrecy around compensation and strategy, which are essential to maintaining morale and teamwork, doesn't apply here.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mat,

I think you should start a thread and poll in the mod forum on what custom title to give El D, and then implement the mod consensus choice. A man with 19K+ posts shouldn't still be stuck on "Carpal\Tunnel".

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of 10k+ posters have the Carpal Tunnel title icluding El Diablo, Clarkmeister, andyfox, and myself. In fact, it seems the olderr posters are the ones who least want a title.

[/ QUOTE ]

Carpal\Tunnel and an early September 2002 reg date are two badges of honor that trump all titles.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I still think an additional forum would be to the benefit of all. How 'bout an El Diablo forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

You clearly weren't around when the "Vince!" forum was operational.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mat,

I think you should start a thread and poll in the mod forum on what custom title to give El D, and then implement the mod consensus choice. A man with 19K+ posts shouldn't still be stuck on "Carpal\Tunnel".

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of 10k+ posters have the Carpal Tunnel title icluding El Diablo, Clarkmeister, andyfox, and myself. In fact, it seems the olderr posters are the ones who least want a title.

[/ QUOTE ]

Carpal\Tunnel and an early September 2002 reg date are two badges of honor that trump all titles.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess this means I should post more.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mat,

I think you should start a thread and poll in the mod forum on what custom title to give El D, and then implement the mod consensus choice. A man with 19K+ posts shouldn't still be stuck on "Carpal\Tunnel".

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of 10k+ posters have the Carpal Tunnel title icluding El Diablo, Clarkmeister, andyfox, and myself. In fact, it seems the olderr posters are the ones who least want a title.

[/ QUOTE ]

Carpal\Tunnel and an early September 2002 reg date are two badges of honor that trump all titles.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess this means I should post more.

[/ QUOTE ]

The date is more key, user #135.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I moved it. Isn't this the forum where we discuss issues like this?

The mod forum will remain hidden as long as I feel the need for volunteer moderators and want to be able to discuss things with them without having the distraction of them knowing there's an audience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you missed the 3-step plan to creating the new #2 traffic forum?

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
Sniper: Wrong.

Mat: No way man, WAY too much responsibility there!

[/ QUOTE ]


-- El D.

Just say, 'Mat, give Diebitter an A&amp;E forum, please!' and your fears will go away.... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

(And no, I'm not taking bets that El D. will fall for the Jedi mind trick)

[MattSuspect]

[ QUOTE ]


Mat: I'm going to pretend I don't want my own forum for a bit, by doing this I hope to give the impression that I don't think this is the best idea ever!

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP