Review of Ace on the River

[boondoggle]

Below is my objective view of this book. I purchased it from amazon.com and paid overnight shipping. Therefore my total cost was $41.xx. I am not affiliated with any publisher, 2+2 or anyone else that would cause me to be biased.

There are 82 full pages where there are nothing but high glossy pictures. That is almost 1/3 of the book.

Chapter review:

chapter 1-- "my poker career"

There is nothing of use in this chapter to an aspiring poker player. Nothing more than stories about Barry.

Chapter 2-- "The Poker Society"

A very brief synopsis of the types of people you will run into in a B&M casino. This did not give me any new information.

Chapter 3-- "How to Behave in Poker Society"

Nothing of value here. Basically says do not be a whiner when you get outdrawn and etc.

Chapter 4-- "Superstition"

I do not understand why this chapter was even included.

Chapter 5-- "Attitude of a Poker Player"

This chapter attempts to ask you 10 questions about your attitude and then tries to explain what your answers may mean. Very short chapter.

Chapter 6-- "Traits of Winning Poker Players"

25 cliches and a brief summary which attempt to explain what traits winning poker players have.

Chapter 7-- "Psychology of Gambling"

This chapter tries to characterize the types of gamblers which has been covered in other books. Again, a VERY short chapter with hardly any content.

Chapter 8-- "Brain Chemistry"

Completely worthless chapter.

Chapter 9-- "Integrity"

Again, I do not understand why this chapter is included in an ADVANCED guide for poker players.

Chapter 10-- "Getting Your Education"

A chapter that has 2 pages (not counting high glossy photo pages. Does 2 pages count as a chapter?) Which basically says, "don't move up in higher limits until you have figured out how the higher limits are different than what you are playing now so you can adjust properly.

Chapter 11-- "Making Money"

This chapter has 5 pages of content minus the high glossy photo pages. It is useful information because it talks about evaluating games and the edges involved.

Chapter 12-- "Holding Onto Money"

It talks about making lending agreements with other honorable players and etc. This chapter is 3 pages long and provides little content.

Chapter 13-- "Hazards of Sports Betting"

This chapter is 3 pages long and has nothing to do with poker therefore I am not going to say anything about it.

Chapter 14-- "Protecting Yourself"

There are 4 pages to this chapter and that is generous because each page has a small photo on it. Talks about spotting cheaters and etc. Not really useful.

Chapter 15-- "Poker and Your Family"

This chapter has 4 pages (lots of photos on the 4 pages so content is even less) and describes what having a spouse who is not supportive during bad runs can do. Not very useful.

Chapter 16-- "Poker and Your Sexuality"

2 pages describing how some men will "quit good games" to chase women. Another useless chapter.

Chapter 17-- "The Best Poker Player in the World"

Useless chapter. You read 4 pages (again content is minimal due to photos) and at end of fourth page, it says, no one is number one due to flux of the game and etc.

Chapter 18-- "Gambling and Productive Society"

This chapter basically postulates an argument as to why gambling is good and should be accepted by the masses.

Chapter 19-- "Mathematics of Poker"

This chapters starts the section of AVANCED PLAY.

Here is direct quote from page 146: "It will occasionally be helpful if you can count the number of outs you have and are able to figure out pot odds in simple situations. In limit poker, you will generally cointinue on in a hand when you have eight outs or more."

This chapter is about 8 pages long (again that is not taking into account the high glossy photos) and its very high level. Not much in way of details. He states on page 147, that if you have 14 outs on the flop then you are a slight favorite in holdem.

He explains the Martingale strategy.

Disappointing.

Chapter 20-- "Game Theory"

There is about one nugget of useful information in this chapter. I will let you find it...think of it as a treasure hunt.

Chapter 21-- "Chaos"

Useless chapter.

Chapter 22-- Different Limits"

Not much content. Move on.

Chapter 23-- Money Management"

discusses reasons for min and max buyin strategies.
Not much content.

Chapter 24-- "Poker on the Internet"

3.5 pages devoted to this when most people who will buy this book will play on the internet. Just amazing that lack of thinking that went into this book.

Chapter 25-- "Play Lessons"

Now this chapter has some meat to it. It presents hands from different forms of poker and the thinking process involved in each one. This is very good but if you only play NL then there are only couple of hands that are reviewed at this form of poker.

Chapter 26-- "Tournaments"

Some useful info on couple of pages but again not much content here.

Chapter 27-- "Some No Limit Tournament Hands"

This chapter is good. It presents the reader with quite a few NL tournament hands and attempts to show the reader the thinking process.

Chapter 28-- "Parting Thoughts"

2 high gloss photo pages with some large text on it.

The rest of the book is the Addenda.

There are 2 chapters in this book which are pretty good and the rest of the chapters are mostly useless. I do not understand how Mason could give this book a 10. I would give this book a 4 out of 10. However, if you were rating it on paper quality, photos and the wonderful cover of Barry then perhaps a 10 would suffice. There is no way I would pay $25 for this book again. I will not even re-read this book again because it is so bad.

Almost 1/3 of the book is nothing but full page pictures. The rest of the book has lots of small pictures therefore the content is minimal. If you were to remove all the photos the text would not equal 100 full text pages.

I wish I could get my $41 back because I feel duped. The hyped failed to deliver again.

Just to give you a comparison, I think the Theory of Poker is a 10 out of 10. Barry's book is not a 10--not even close.

cheers
Boon

[Hold'me]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[Diesel10]

I agree with the above review in certain respects. There is very little here in the way of theory and hand play (maybe 20% of the book). If you are looking for that kind of book, this is not for you. There are countless others that serve that purpose that have been discussed on these forums ad nauseum.
Nevertheless, I enjoyed Barry's book. It is certainly the only poker book I have ever seen that is worthy of being a "coffee table" book. The physical quality of this book (which many have discussed) for a poker book is astonishing. I also enjoyed reading Barry's short chapters and little snippets about poker/psychology/the poker world. It is certainly not something to base your game around, but much of it was interesting nonetheless. Plus, as noted, there are some very good hand analyses and strategies discussed. Do I need Barry G to tell me to be a good husband and father or about poker and sexuality- no. But that did not make the rest of the book worthless.
All in all I am satusfied with my purchase, but I think everyone will differ on their review depending on what they want or are expecting.

[kitaristi0]

Wow, thanks for the review. After all the hype and the things i've been hearing, i was expecting this book to be ToP 2. Despite what you say, i'm still going to buy it, but maybe now i won't be so disappointed if it is in fact as bad as you say it is.

[Lost Wages]

Ugh. After looking at the chapter listing on Amazon I decided that this was not a book for me. Then, after reading Mason's reccomedation, I decided to go ahead and order it. Now, it appears as though it is exactly what I first feared. Ugh. At least it has a chapter about sex and chasing women. Thanks for the review.

Lost Wages

[trdi]

Thank you for the time you spent for the review. However, perhaps you would also like to share with us, what were your initial expectations. Did you expect a pure theory book like HOH or SSH? At the end it's all about expectations. What if you would expect the book to be the worst book ever? Than you would be positively surprised. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for the time you spent for the review. However, perhaps you would also like to share with us, what were your initial expectations. Did you expect a pure theory book like HOH or SSH? At the end it's all about expectations. What if you would expect the book to be the worst book ever? Than you would be positively surprised. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No matter what he was expecting, it sounds like the book is a bunch of fluff. I'm one of the suckers that ordered it due to Mason's review.

[theghost]

Sounds pretty bad. I would have expected better from Barry, and a less glowing review from Mason.

[Idaho Ave]

I'm one of the suckers that ordered it due to Mason's review.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think you ought read it yourself before making this statement?

[BlackAces]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for the time you spent for the review. However, perhaps you would also like to share with us, what were your initial expectations. Did you expect a pure theory book like HOH or SSH? At the end it's all about expectations. What if you would expect the book to be the worst book ever? Than you would be positively surprised. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No matter what he was expecting, it sounds like the book is a bunch of fluff. I'm one of the suckers that ordered it due to Mason's review.

[/ QUOTE ]
He certainly went out of his way to made it SOUND like a bunch of fluff, that's for sure.

Try forming your own opinion.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for the time you spent for the review. However, perhaps you would also like to share with us, what were your initial expectations. Did you expect a pure theory book like HOH or SSH? At the end it's all about expectations. What if you would expect the book to be the worst book ever? Than you would be positively surprised. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No matter what he was expecting, it sounds like the book is a bunch of fluff. I'm one of the suckers that ordered it due to Mason's review.

[/ QUOTE ]
He certainly went out of his way to made it SOUND like a bunch of fluff, that's for sure.

Try forming your own opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you guys are right. But Mason once did rate Poker Farce and Poker Truth a 9 so who knows.

[Komodo]

Thx for your opinion

[BlackAces]

I look at it this way...

On the one hand, at least a half dozen top poker pros and writers have said the book is incredible.

On the other hand, one nameless, faceless poster on 2+2 that I wouldn't know from Adam has said it's a waste of time.

I'm still looking forward to it.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
I look at it this way...

On the one hand, at least a half dozen top poker pros and writers have said the book is incredible.

On the other hand, one nameless, faceless poster on 2+2 that I wouldn't know from Adam has said it's a waste of time.

I'm still looking forward to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had only seen the Mason review. But beforehand, looking at the Table of Contents, it didn't seem like it had alot of meat.

Now, I can't wait to read it for another reason. Is this going to be Braveheart or Waterworld?

[oreopimp]

Doesnt really seem to make sense, why the glowing review from mason if the book sucks...hes pretty honest with his reviews.

[benfranklin]

Here is Howard Schwartz's review:

Barry Greenstein, one of poker's most successful, respected money players on the planet--and a top tournament player as well-ranks among the most well-regarded, educated and unorthodox individuals ever to play the game. Doyle Brunson calls him "the consummate professional poker player," adding, "His attitude, demeanor at the table, and approach to the game sets him apart from most pros." Brunson considers Greenstein in his "top ten all-time best poker players." And as an example of what the man is like, you should understand that Greenstein does something few players do. He contributes his tournament winnings to charities--most keyed to children.

His first book, Ace on the River (316 pages, paperbound, $25) has just been published. It is, in Greenstein's own words, designed ..."for professional poker players and those aspiring to become professionals."

He is blunt and honest in his approach to the game. "Many assertions in the book are not based on scientific study or mathematical proof. They are only the results of my observations." (He did write computer programs to verify some of the material with the results available on his web site).

Greenstein's background is fascinating. Although he won't admit to being a genius, he probably is. He began playing poker at age 12. He would earn a college degree in three years and would spend another decade earning a graduate degree in mathematics (while playing poker). In many ways, Greenstein might be called "brutally honest" when writing about his own life--his victories and losses; the people he met, who influenced him; who he learned from.

The book is an extraordinary mixture of preparation-to-survive material; an inside look at a world unto itself because only the sharpest survive to fight another day and advice from one of the best ever.

Who are the casino personnel you'll eventually encounter as a pro; what percentage of the playing "community" are pros; what are stake horses; who are the wannabes; who are the hangers-on; the predators?

Greenstein discusses superstition; attitude (handling issues in your life mirrors how you will play poker); survival tips ("adjustments"); what separates winners from losers; why poker is a game of personalities; why poker players "tend to be borderline compulsive and why most poker players don't have "a long term plan to improve their playing ability."

For many who want to cut to the chase--get to the point immediately--, Chapter 11, Making Money, gets it all going, followed by Holding Onto Your Money.

Here, Greenstein warns and advises poker players who often get involved in sports betting of the dangers; discusses how to protect against cheaters; and expresses why family support and regard for your own family should be "first priority."

One provocative chapter involves the controversy of who the best player in the world is and how that determination can ever be made.

Greenstein examines the role of gambling in society, throughout history and how poker has taught him to analyze issues from different perspectives.

Just how much mathematical ability is required to become a good player? Is it more important to be able to think logically? Can mathematics be misused at the tables? Does mastery of the concepts of game theory "separate the top players" from the rest?

The book discusses money management; presents "play lessons" such as "You often play the same hand differently against different opponents or under different circumstances," and how to recognize scare cards that may allows you to bluff opponents.

Packed with color photos, nice large, easy to read type, the book mixes in innovative ideas with personal experience and sample hands. It is a rare combination of intuition, the need to teach--to help players improve their game--and their approach to life.

The section on No-Limit Tournament Hands is one of the best, along with Tables for Hold'em After the Flop (if the number of outs is known, what is the chance of winning?) and a look at typical drawing hands that produce a certain number of outs on the flop.

Bottom line, quoting Brunson about this special book: "...contains a lot of stuff I knew but had never seen written."

My sentiments exactly. Bravo Greenstein.

[David Sklansky]

As in medicine, poker books should "first do no harm". So few books meet this requirement that those that do get at least a seven. If the book is an interesting read that's another point. From there, the key is whether there is stuff that you didn't already know, is accurately and well presented, and will make you money. There is only one piece of strategy advice in the whole book (which I did not read with a fine tooth comb) that I have a small problem with and will discuss in the future (KQ with board of TT8 and King on the turn). I think I agree with every else. There is one sample hand regarding seven stud where he packs so much good information into it he could have made it a whole chapter.

The non strategy parts of the book (more than half) will help different people to varying degrees. One thing it does is try to identify and patch up various leaks you may have. He also tries to show you what it means to think like an ultra high stakes winning player. I believe he does a good job. And most readers will both enjoy and benefit from those words. But not so much the posters on this forum. Their nature is to have already patched up their leaks and to grind out a nice hourly rate often multitabling on the internet or in a casino that doesn't offer super big games.

Thus the readers of this forum are not apt to be as gushy about the book as either beginners or higher stakes players. Barry thinks his is the best poker book ever written, and well, of course, thats wrong. But when a mother has a newborn she is sure it is the cutest baby alive and who wants to burst her bubble? Barry's baby is quite cute though and is well worth buying.

[bilyin]

He is trying to recruit Barry to write for 2+2. 2+2 is weak on big bet poker.

[tongni]

I couldn't agree more with your review of the book. I paid overnight shipping too, I was really excited for it to come. There's not really much substance to it. The actual poker content is very low. IF I WANTED TOURNAMENT HANDS I WOULD PURCHASE HOH2. But I digress. I really wanted to learn more about high limit holdem and I was extremely dissapointed.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Boon:

I agree with much of what you say but I still stand by my favorable comments towards Ace on the River. It's a unique book that is designed to help moderately high limit players, I would say those playing $80-$160 (like I do) and higher move to even bigger games and be successful. And, it just turns out that much of what Greenstein talks about are problems that do hold back many of the players at these limits from becoming great players in their own right.

On the other hand, if you're struggling to move from let's say $10-$20 to $20-$40, which probably characterizes many of our posters, Greenstein's book should prove to be mainly entertaining. It will also be entertaining to someone very new to poker who's curious about the lifestyle and challenges that the very high limit players face.

So while I think the book has much more value than you do, I do concede that others will react to it in a similar fashion as you have and I respect that opinion.

Perhaps Barry himself will find the time to address some of your criticisms.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Ryan Beal]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh. After looking at the chapter listing on Amazon I decided that this was not a book for me. Then, after reading Mason's reccomedation, I decided to go ahead and order it. Now, it appears as though it is exactly what I first feared. Ugh. At least it has a chapter about sex and chasing women. Thanks for the review.

Lost Wages

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here. Mason's glowing review influenced me as well.
I guess tomorrow will be a huge disappointment, but that's my own fault for not waiting a bit to order the book.

I've always liked Malmuth (from how little I know of him), respected his reviews, etc. This really makes me wonder, though. I guess I'll have to see which review I agree with. But yours gives a more full breakdown of what's in the book, and it doesn't seem to be "10" material.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
He is trying to recruit Barry to write for 2+2. 2+2 is weak on big bet poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a good theory to me.

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'll have to see which review I agree with.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm actually quite eager to get the book after reading boondoggle's review. It sounds like exactly the book I want. Not another strategy guide -- there are a zillion of those. But a book about the psychological aspects of being successful in poker, told from the perspective of someone who would know.

I'm most looking forward to the hand examples.

But I'm quite happy that the book won't feature a chapter on starting hand selection, another chapter on how to count outs and figure pot odds, another on raising for a free card, another on semi-bluffing, etc. That would be a letdown. Any winning $30-$60 player could write that, and many have (some better than others). Many of the topics Barry covers (as described by boondoggle) may seem like fluff, but to me they look interesting and I think Barry's take is probably different from the one a $30-$60 player could offer.

[Ryan Beal]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm actually quite eager to get the book after reading boondoggle's review. It sounds like exactly the book I want. Not another strategy guide -- there are a zillion of those. But a book about the psychological aspects of being successful in poker, told from the perspective of someone who would know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree, and it's one of the main reasons I was excited about the book. But it doesn't seem to offer enough content (from the OP's description) about even that aspect of the game.

Still, I will try not to jump to any real conclusions until I've read most of it. I suspect it will be worth the read, but am unsure of whether it will be worth the $30. There are a few poker books which I have enjoyed reading in Borders, but I wouldn't buy them.

The glossy pictures thing is a big flashing "warning" light to me.

[barryg1]

Over the last two years, I have had many readers of my manuscript. Non-players, low limit players, and high-stakes players loved it. $30-$60 to $80-$160 players usually complained that they only wanted play examples and a formulaic way to play better.

This is a book that will strike a chord with some players and not with others. I never said it was the best book ever written, but most high-limit players feel it is the only book that describes their world and considerations to be successful at the higher limits.

Barry

[Hold'me]

Barry send me a free copy for my 18th birthday coming up on the 31st! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Jeffage]

I haven't read the book yet, but it's set to arrive on Monday. I'm still excited for it. Not worth $30? Depending on the game you play, that's not even a bet. If a book has even a bit of really good info I've never seen before, it is WELL worth it IMO.

Jeff

[*TT*]

Barry:

The chapter list reminds me of the content in Mason's fabulous Poker Essay series. Was this your influence when writing AotR? If so, I think I will be very happy to read your book. Those that I know who have met you (a small group I must admit) all rave about your finer qualities as both a person and a player, I look forward to the reading experience. Those who do not like it are probably looking for something more like TOP, HPFAP, or Haring ton's book I assume; obviously that was not your intention.

ON a slightly related note (only because I am in publishing for a living as well), I too am not a big fan of glossy pages with photos in my books. Generally I believe they negatively affect book sales.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Ryan Beal]

[ QUOTE ]
$30-$60 to $80-$160 players usually complained that they only wanted play examples and a formulaic way to play better.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is definitely not what I am looking for out of your book. As I said, I'm hoping to read a lot about the psychological aspects of the game.

I wouldn't even consider making a real judgement without having read the book, and am still looking forward to reading it. Anything I said about it's potential worth was based soley on the OP's description of a low amount of content. However, if it's even 2/3 as good as Malmuth and Sklansky are making it out to be, I'm sure I'll get my money's worth.

Nobody should be surprised if I post a positive comment about this book after I've read it.

[barryg1]

Boon,

I would never want anyone to feel ripped off by me. I guess it is to be expected that there will be people who will not enjoy what I have written. Similarly, some people like me and some don't.

Send the book along with a note stating how much you spent including shipping (and shipping it back to us).

Here is the address:

Last Knight Publishing Company
P.O. Box 270006
Fort Collins, CO 80527

Be sure to include your address, and I will make sure you get your refund.

Thanks for taking the time to read the book, anyway. Sorry, you didn't get much out of it.

Barry

[bobdibble]

Barry is such a class act.

Barry, you are my role model and I hope to rise to your level some day. Ok.. enough ass kissing.

I look forward to your book being delivered tomorrow.

<-- Pat "the 2500 LHE JJ guy". (My name really isn't Bob)

[Aceshigh7]

Just wanted to add that I am a low limit player and I just finished the book and I found it was excellent. It got me thinking about the game in ways I hadn't previously.

[Shandrax]

I will buy the book despite of the negative review. The point is that if there is one single piece of advice that is helpful to me, then it is already worth it. Maybe this explains why I have over 500 chess books in my library. Didn't make me a grandmaster, but at least I can say to myself that I did my homework.

I don't expect Barry's book to contain a formula for playing, because if there is one, it has to be kept secret. The thing I am looking for is some information that I can reverse-engineer in order to find such a formula. For me it is clear that success in poker can only be based on own independent analysis, but I need a hint where to start.

Talking analysis: Does anyone know if a full overview of all holecards and plays from the WPT tournaments can be downloaded somewhere?

[Ben79]

I enjoyed this book. It has a philosophical tone to it. There's plenty of subtle psychological information in it that would probally resonate with most professional poker players who sit in a casino card room for 50 hours a week. To fully appreciate this book, not just the play examples near the end, you have to be somewhat of an intellectually-minded person.

[whiskeytown]

I have just ordered the book - I have no intention of returning it, if for no other reason then to leave more money for the charities you support -

Many thanks for what you did for Charlie and for the good things you do - too bad about the Main Event this yr - you'll just have to keep making money the old fashioned way, playing the biggest games in the world - /images/graemlins/grin.gif

RB

[Alex/Mugaaz]

I thought the book would be a lot more about strategy, that was my preconception of it. Most of the information about it before was saying that it would show people how to move up to the highest levels. I was expecting more information on how hands are played differently at that level. It's a good book, I'm just dissapointed because I had incorrect notions of what to expect. I thought it was going to be a book like XXXXXX for really really advanced players.

[Nfinity]

[ QUOTE ]
Boon,

I would never want anyone to feel ripped off by me. I guess it is to be expected that there will be people who will not enjoy what I have written. Similarly, some people like me and some don't.

Send the book along with a note stating how much you spent including shipping (and shipping it back to us).

Here is the address:

Last Knight Publishing Company
P.O. Box 270006
Fort Collins, CO 80527

Be sure to include your address, and I will make sure you get your refund.

Thanks for taking the time to read the book, anyway. Sorry, you didn't get much out of it.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I'm buying this book now. No doubt about it. Even if it sits on a shelf until I start playin' 100/200 and can fully appreciate it's value, consider it sold.

Thats classy Barry, no doubt.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought the book would be a lot more about strategy, that was my preconception of it. Most of the information about it before was saying that it would show people how to move up to the highest levels. I was expecting more information on how hands are played differently at that level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hands are hands at any level. Math is math at any level.

Moving up is about people - fixing your personal weaknesses and how well you perceive, deceive and persuade others at the table.

[PJS]

It was never advertised as "traditional textbook" style. It was billed as a great supplement to that kind of material. I am still waiting for the book, but am under the impression that, read alongside books such as TOP or HEFAP, it will be of great value. I'm also under the impression that the book will not just be a one-time read. From what I have been told, and read about the book, it will help people's thought process, understanding of the game, and help make sure they stay on the right path, especially when moving up in limits.

I think some people may have purchased the book without doing any reasearch, therefore, have no idea what to expect when it arrives. Those expecting textbook style, and are disappointed, tend to take it out on the book, as opposed to appreciating it for what it is intended to achieve.

As I've already stated, I've yet to read the book, so cannot comment further. However, I'm looking forward to it very much, and will give an opinion after it has arrived.

[KaneKungFu123]

Man, I hope its not to late to cancel my order.

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Boon:

I agree with much of what you say but I still stand by my favorable comments towards Ace on the River. It's a unique book that is designed to help moderately high limit players, I would say those playing $80-$160 (like I do) and higher move to even bigger games and be successful. And, it just turns out that much of what Greenstein talks about are problems that do hold back many of the players at these limits from becoming great players in their own right.

On the other hand, if you're struggling to move from let's say $10-$20 to $20-$40, which probably characterizes many of our posters, Greenstein's book should prove to be mainly entertaining. It will also be entertaining to someone very new to poker who's curious about the lifestyle and challenges that the very high limit players face.

So while I think the book has much more value than you do, I do concede that others will react to it in a similar fashion as you have and I respect that opinion.

Perhaps Barry himself will find the time to address some of your criticisms.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
It was never advertised as "traditional textbook" style. It was billed as a great supplement to that kind of material.

[/ QUOTE ]

that kind of material doesnt exist.

[PJS]

?

[Quad_Damage]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds pretty bad. I would have expected better from Barry, and a less glowing review from Mason.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was pretty obvious that Barry was giving Mason something in return. I'm sorry, but how could a book like this (an "opinion" book - there's no guaranteed way for a book to make players into the "the best players they can possibly be") could earn a 10/10. It might be useful, but it can't be THAT useful. I can sit in a room and listen to someone give me all of this advice about avoiding tilt and whatnot, but that's not going to make me do it.

[Moyer]

[ QUOTE ]

Hands are hands at any level. Math is math at any level.

Moving up is about people - fixing your personal weaknesses and how well you perceive, deceive and persuade others at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good post.

[PJS]

(an "opinion" book - there's no guaranteed way for a book to make players into the "the best players they can possibly be") could earn a 10/10. It might be useful, but it can't be THAT useful. I can sit in a room and listen to someone give me all of this advice about avoiding tilt and whatnot, but that's not going to make me do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like anything in life, people can guide you, but it is you that has to make it happen. Your right, people can tell you to stay off tilt until they are blue in the face, but unless you or me listen, or can apply this advice to our game, all it does is reduce our chances of being a winning player. However, what this book appears to be doing is giving good solid advice. If people choose not to follow it, it's only a good thing for people who do.

[GreywolfNYC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought the book would be a lot more about strategy, that was my preconception of it. Most of the information about it before was saying that it would show people how to move up to the highest levels. I was expecting more information on how hands are played differently at that level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hands are hands at any level. Math is math at any level.

Moving up is about people - fixing your personal weaknesses and how well you perceive, deceive and persuade others at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very astute comments, binions.

[LozColbert]

Troll. Yawn.

[FatTony]

I agree 100% with Boondoggle's comments regarding Barry's book. That being said, I consider the $25 well spent for no other purpose that to determine, via all that's been said and written about the book, who is and who isn't full of ****.

Notwithstanding the "BS Filter" value, this book is useless to anyone with common sense.

[Mason Malmuth]

I hardly know Greenstein and have only talked to him briefly a couple of times. I'm curious as to what he gave me.

MM

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]

I thought it was pretty obvious that Barry was giving Mason something in return.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some of us are a little slow, and such things are not obvious to us. Perhaps you could fill us in from your vast store of superior knowledge, and provide the hard information on this.


[ QUOTE ]
I can sit in a room and listen to someone give me all of this advice about avoiding tilt and whatnot, but that's not going to make me do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. And you can sit in a room and talk to a 3 year old about not throwing a tantrum, and that's not going to make him do it. Education in certain areas is impossible without a prerequisite level of experience and maturity.

Have you considered the new Hellmuth Anti-Tilt Cranial Implant (patent pending)? It's still in the beta test, but Phil reports good results. It's a small chip implanted in the newly discovered tilt lobe of the brain. When you feel yourself going on tilt, you press the button on a small remote control, and it delivers a small electrical charge that numbs the tilt lobe.

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the information about it before was saying that it would show people how to move up to the highest levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was no information about it before, except the table of contents that Barry posted on his site. And that seems to have been a very good indication of what the book was about.

What there was before was a lot of pointless speculation about the book by posters here who did not have a clue about the book (or about Barry).


[ QUOTE ]
It's a good book, I'm just dissapointed because I had incorrect notions of what to expect.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is inevitable, given the "in-depth" discussions here about books that haven't been written yet. I remember long threads before the publication of Super System 2 about whether the no limit section in there would be better or worse than the forth-coming Sklansky-Miller book on no limit. Anyone who preorders an unpublished book based on "information" posted here is setting themselves up for a fall.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought the book would be a lot more about strategy, that was my preconception of it. Most of the information about it before was saying that it would show people how to move up to the highest levels. I was expecting more information on how hands are played differently at that level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hands are hands at any level. Math is math at any level.

Moving up is about people - fixing your personal weaknesses and how well you perceive, deceive and persuade others at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very astute comments, binions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hands are not hands at any level. As the quality of your opponents change so do the strategies. Since at the top level games (I assume) at least for the most part that no one makes mistakes unless they are induced into making one. I have no idea what hands would/should be played like at that level.

Not to mention "fixing your personal weaknesses and how well you perceive, deceive and persuade others at the table." - Right...... I thought the book was about how to do that at the highest levels.

[TransientR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ugh. After looking at the chapter listing on Amazon I decided that this was not a book for me. Then, after reading Mason's reccomedation, I decided to go ahead and order it. Now, it appears as though it is exactly what I first feared. Ugh. At least it has a chapter about sex and chasing women. Thanks for the review.

Lost Wages

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here. Mason's glowing review influenced me as well.
I guess tomorrow will be a huge disappointment, but that's my own fault for not waiting a bit to order the book.

I've always liked Malmuth (from how little I know of him), respected his reviews, etc. This really makes me wonder, though. I guess I'll have to see which review I agree with. But yours gives a more full breakdown of what's in the book, and it doesn't seem to be "10" material.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a hard core poker hand analyis book. But despite being too anecdotal and with many chapters light on content, I found the book worth it just for the aesthetics of it. The glossy paper, and numerous high resolution photos are impressive for a $25 book. And the hold-em tournament hands are interesting (but really, HOH bury's Barry's book for tourney analysis).

One non-analytical revelation that was interesting to me was that Greenstein doesn't seem to be near as wealthy as many believe, and how much donating all his tourney winnings to charity costs him given the U.S. tax structure. I never doubted his philanthopic sincerity, but this made me realize that his donating his tournament winnings puts pressure on him to win at high-stakes cash games that I doubt many other players would tolerate.

Anyway, a worthwhile read overall, but I can understand the disappointment of player's who could care less about photos and rush delivered the book for poker content alone.

Frank

[BarronVangorToth]

Offering a refund is truly a classy move on Barry's part, so, with that in mind AND my opinion of the text, since I imagine most of you haven't read the book yet, I would like to say that it is easily one of the best - if not the best - non-2+2 books that has come out in recent memory.

No, it's not going to revolutionize your game like TOP, SSH, HEPFAP, but it is very entertaining, informative, and instructive.

In short: I wholeheartedly recommend the book, something I seldom do.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]


Same here. Mason's glowing review influenced me as well.
I guess tomorrow will be a huge disappointment, but that's my own fault for not waiting a bit to order the book.

I've always liked Malmuth (from how little I know of him), respected his reviews, etc. This really makes me wonder, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that most people mis-read Mason's post. First, he specifically said that this was not a formal review. He also said:

[ QUOTE ]
I will say that much of the book deals with those things that will not only allow you to play the best you can, but also allow you to play at the best you'll ever be able to play.

[/ QUOTE ]


That does not say the book teaches you how to play poker better. The only thing in Mason's post about playing poker is that he says that the hand examples are very good. In first reading Mason's post, I jumped to the same conclusion that most here did, that it was a great strategy book. Rereading the post in light of the discussions here, Mason's post takes on an entirely different meaning.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Boon:

I agree with much of what you say but I still stand by my favorable comments towards Ace on the River. It's a unique book that is designed to help moderately high limit players, I would say those playing $80-$160 (like I do) and higher move to even bigger games and be successful. And, it just turns out that much of what Greenstein talks about are problems that do hold back many of the players at these limits from becoming great players in their own right.

On the other hand, if you're struggling to move from let's say $10-$20 to $20-$40, which probably characterizes many of our posters, Greenstein's book should prove to be mainly entertaining. It will also be entertaining to someone very new to poker who's curious about the lifestyle and challenges that the very high limit players face.

So while I think the book has much more value than you do, I do concede that others will react to it in a similar fashion as you have and I respect that opinion.

Perhaps Barry himself will find the time to address some of your criticisms.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason,

When I read the above quote I take it to mean that you personally got something valuable from the book that will help you in your game. Is that fair to say?

That's how I interpret the above post of yours, and if it's true I think it adequately explains why you gave the book a 10/10. I doubt there are many, or any, books that get published that you gain insight from (that aren't published by 2+2).

[Ryan Beal]

I'm sorry, but my reading comprehension is not the problem.

A "10" is supposed to be a "10", regardless if it's a 'formal' review or not. Anyone who actually tries to argue that with me is wasting their breath.

I have no idea how good the book is, so I can't argue with you. But notice that what I wanted out of the book is supposedly what's in it. So, maybe I'll love it.
I'm sure it's waiting for me at home.

[ QUOTE ]
Rereading the post in light of the discussions here, Mason's post takes on an entirely different meaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're splitting hairs.

[Ryan Beal]

Huh?

The only information I based my decision on was Mason's informal review. He had read the book, so your argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my case, or many others.

Also, I remind people that I may end up saying the book is great. Anything I've said has been pure speculation based on the information available to me.

[olliejen]

[ QUOTE ]
But when a mother has a newborn she is sure it is the cutest baby alive and who wants to burst her bubble? Barry's baby is quite cute though and is well worth buying.

[/ QUOTE ]

i got a good chuckle from this. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bilyin]

Mr. Greenstein:
Nobody here thinks he is being ripped off. The posters here are upset with Mason for not doing an objective review. There is no issue with you at all.
I am looking forward to receiving my copy and find out for myself how I like it.
Regards

[TransientR]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree 100% with Boondoggle's comments regarding Barry's book. That being said, I consider the $25 well spent for no other purpose that to determine, via all that's been said and written about the book, who is and who isn't full of ****.

Notwithstanding the "BS Filter" value, this book is useless to anyone with common sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

What an 'above it all' post!

The book is 'useless' to anyone with common sense? As Nabokov used to say: "Common sense is sense made common."

The biographical material and most of the chapters that aren't play analytical I won't be rereading (that isn't to say I didn't like reading them in the first place). And there is interesting analytical information in the book. Plus, I would think most people when looking at the photographs that reproduce especially well on the heavy glossy paper, and the evident care that went into the design of the book, would want it as part of their poker library.

So I'm not asking Barry for any refunds...:).

Frank

[Shandrax]

I think that is what it all comes down to. The book is probably not that bad, the 10/10 rating is simply ridiculous and that's what fires up the expectations and causes the disappointment.

[PapiChulo503]

I was going to cancel my order and then I read this. Either way im hanging on to it now, your a class act.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
I was going to cancel my order and then I read this. Either way im hanging on to it now, your a class act.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, me too.

Although I still hate the idea of 1/3 the pages being photographs?

[SamG]

[ QUOTE ]
The book is probably not that bad, the 10/10 rating is simply ridiculous and that's what fires up the expectations and causes the disappointment.

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you read the book?

[SamG]

[ QUOTE ]
The posters here are upset with Mason for not doing an objective review.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you think Mason's review is not objective?

He gets criticized when he gives non-2+2 books bad ratings, and he gets criticized when he gives non-2+2 books good ratings. He can't win I guess.

Half the people criticizing Mason in this thread probably haven't even read Barry's book yet.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]

No matter what he was expecting, it sounds like the book is a bunch of fluff. I'm one of the suckers that ordered it due to Mason's review.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, me too. I'm hoping that some of the material near the end will pay off, but much of what I've skimmed through in the first two-thirds . . . christ. I suppose that if, as a poker player, I was emotionally or developmentally disabled I would benefit. (You mean there are risks in lending fellow gamblers money? Angle-shooting is bad? You shouldn't insult the fish? Whining is unproductive? Excuse me while I alert the media.)

I guess -- well, I'm certain -- that there are high-level players that could use a reminder on all of those fronts, but yeesh.

I guess I would have ordered it even without Mason's review -- I mean, it's $25 on Amazon, that's pocket change, and if there's even one great idea or concept I haven't heard before (or even that I need to be reminded of), the book pays for itself. But ranking this book a '10' . . .

I hope that the last third kicks some serious ass! (And it very well may.)

PS It's only ONE space after a period, Barry. ONE. Damned vanity presses.

[Beavis68]

When I first heard about the book, I thought it would have much more poker content.

Exactly how did this book help anyone win tournaments?

Also, I thought Barry mentioned that some players couldn't believe he was actually printing some of the info in the book? What could they be referring too? The strategy sounds pretty standard, did he leave something out?

[Ryan Beal]

[ QUOTE ]
PS It's only ONE space after a period, Barry. ONE. Damned vanity presses.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't the way my classes were taught in school. I was always taught, by numerous teachers, to use two spaces after a period.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

Doesnt really seem to make sense, why the glowing review from mason if the book sucks...hes pretty honest with his reviews.

[/ QUOTE ]



I bought this book from the Gambler's Book shop booth at the WSOP trade-show.
I haven't read it all yet but I have told a couple others about it, "Well...it DOES have a lot of pretty pictures."

I was really disappointed even just paging through it but bought it anyway because I wanted to look at it a bit more and I did want Barry's thoughts on the tourney hands he played (which is a VERY interesting section and I with there was more).

But, from what I have seen just skimming through it, I agree with the OP that it is rather 'fluffy' and I don't understand why Barry (such a smart freaking guy) wouldn't put together a more serious book worth actually studying.

A bit disappointing although I don't know exactly what I was expecting.

Still....that doesn't need to be a factor...I didn't know what to expect in HOH or HOH2 and I have been absolutely thrilled with the content in those books.



I was unaware that Mason rated this book a 10 and am truly stunned to hear that he did this. It makes virtually no sense to me.

In fact, when the 10-review was mentioned in this thread I thought that it must be a joke because I certainly wouldn't rate this book as 'outstanding' or 'excellent' (which is where I draw the line for 10's).
It took a couple more references to it within this thread for me to realize that he really DID rate it a 10.



I also would like to say that Barry's appearance in this thread (as well as his offer to buy back the book from the OP) really impresses me and that, even though I am not blown away by his book, I still have as much respect for him as a person, and as a poker player, as I ever have.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PS It's only ONE space after a period, Barry. ONE. Damned vanity presses.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't the way my classes were taught in school. I was always taught, by numerous teachers, to use two spaces after a period.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's nice. But welcome to the late 80s. (Your teachers were likely stuck in the early 60s.)

I've had this argument a billion times before, so I won't rehash it here, but pick up any non-vanity press book published in the last five, ten, probably last twenty years (including any 2+2 book, I'd wager), or journal, or magazine article, and you'll see what I mean.

Two spaces after a period for non-scalable fonts (like on most old typewriters). One space for scalable fonts (i.e., what is used 99.9% of the time these days, even in regular old email).

A Google search on the subject should prove enlightening as well.

[Ryan Beal]

So defensive. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I can live with doing it the wrong way, especially if it irks the nitpickers.

[Moyer]

Apparently, many readers were expecting you to give away an amazing secret to winning that only big limit pros understand.

I found the book to be at the very least, an interesting and entertaining read. I'm mainly a low limit internet player, but I recently took another trip to my local card room, and kept that experience in mind when going through the book.

I'd have to read it again to give it a more detailed review, but here are my thoughts so far:

The "Play Lessons" chapter should be especially helpful to all players, especially the ones here on the forums.

I was very interested in the many areas where you discuss things to think about during a hand. This is probably what the book will help me with the most, at least in the short run.

I felt that much of the book is a good review of topics that are usually breifly mentioned in other books, but may have never been covered this throughly. I think it is worth the occassional reread because it should help any live game player play their "A game" on a more consistant basis.

I haven't read the tournament section yet because I rarely play in tournaments.

It certainly got me thinking about my game. Maybe I'm an easy sell, but I think that fact alone should make it worth $25 to any serious poker player.

I hope you write another one.

[FeliciaLee]

This is more like the response I figured the book would get by 2+2 when I posted my initial review.

Having been around these boards for about three years (including a period of time before I ever posted), I have found that there are two basic types of serious poker players here. The first type has a very analytical, mathematical mindset and has a hard time believing there is any psychology involved in poker. They make the transition from counting cards at 21 to poker pretty easily. They take to online poker like a fish in water. When approached about "tells" or certain theories regarding poker, they roll their eyes and claim it's all hogwash.

I predicted that a lot of readers here would be in that category and rate Barry's book thusly.

Rather than having that disappoint me, that keeps me cheerful for the future of poker. The purely math guys keep people like Barry at the top, and help people like me move up.

The fluffy topics they dismiss are the ones they usually have the hardest time handling. They are completely unable to deal with the emotional rollercoaster that poker can put one through, and when they are running bad, they are really running bad (instead of limiting their losses), because they dismissed anything psychological in poker.

Although I disagree with the purely-math crowd, I am glad they are around, and will continue to play.

Felicia /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Timer]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is Howard Schwartz's review:

Barry Greenstein, one of poker's most successful, respected money players on the planet--and a top tournament player as well-ranks among the most well-regarded, educated and unorthodox individuals ever to play the game . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

Howard Schwartz, owner of the Gamblers Book Club, (officially he is the marketing director) is a well known industry hack. I've never seen him give a bad review. He sells what he reviews, so why should he?

Take what he says with a grain of salt.

That being said, I'm still going to read Barry's book. Why? Because Barry plays 4000/8000 and I don't . . . and I like Barry.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
This is more like the response I figured the book would get by 2+2 when I posted my initial review.

Having been around these boards for about three years (including a period of time before I ever posted), I have found that there are two basic types of serious poker players here. The first type has a very analytical, mathematical mindset and has a hard time believing there is any psychology involved in poker. They make the transition from counting cards at 21 to poker pretty easily. They take to online poker like a fish in water. When approached about "tells" or certain theories regarding poker, they roll their eyes and claim it's all hogwash.

I predicted that a lot of readers here would be in that category and rate Barry's book thusly.

Rather than having that disappoint me, that keeps me cheerful for the future of poker. The purely math guys keep people like Barry at the top, and help people like me move up.

The fluffy topics they dismiss are the ones they usually have the hardest time handling. They are completely unable to deal with the emotional rollercoaster that poker can put one through, and when they are running bad, they are really running bad (instead of limiting their losses), because they dismissed anything psychological in poker.

Although I disagree with the purely-math crowd, I am glad they are around, and will continue to play.

Felicia /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're being unfair. There's a difference between being math-oriented and not believing that there are psychological aspects to poker, and being math-oriented and not needing to be told that whining is bad, that angle-shooting is wrong, that you shouldn't lend fellow gamblers money without knowing they might not pay you back, and that tilt costs money.

Seriously, I don't see anything in here that is helpful in dealing with the psychological side of poker, other than a reminder that there is one. I love Doc Al's articles and always read him, and have read "Inside the Poker Mind" more than once. I haven't found anything in Barry's book that comes close.

[MicroBob]

I completely agree Grisga.


A sample from the book:

You must protect your bankroll

All the bills are finally paid and you feel pretty good. Is it time to go shopping? Yes, providing you leave enough money to play poker. Money is the tool of your trade. A carpenter wouldn't give his tools away and you should be careful not to give yours away either. Hoe much you need depends on what stakes you play for and how good you are relative to the games you play in.

------------------


This is the type of fluff I would expect to see in a beginners' book.
Golly...I need money...and I shouldn't give it away.
And how much money I need depends on how high I want to play.
(the rest of the chapter then goes on about not loaning to people who don't pay on time, etc).

There is no advanced psychological aspects of poker involved here.
Barry just says that money is important and that loaning should be done with restraint and some judgement (I don't loan nor borrow).

'Advanced Poker Guide'?? Not some of this stuff that's for sure.


I am VERY interested in some of the psychology involved with live-poker.
I have no problem reading essays that are not nuts-and-bolts math.
I just don't care for some of the beginners' fluffyness in the book.


Thankfully, there are some interesting anecdotes in there as well as background on Barry's life and career. And the hand examples are quite interesting and thought provoking too.


i particularly enjoyed his hand where he laid down his set of Q's to his opponents set of A's.
Nice read!!


but much of the book reads like a 'beginners' guide and not an 'advanced' guide imo.


I see that Mason has a review and a long thread on this book so I'll go check that out now.

[boondoggle]

Barry,

Thanks for being a class act. I will be shipping the book back sometime this week.

cheers
Boon

[LLKOOLK1]

I just finished Barrys book, and I understand why some people are complaining, but I belive the goal of the book was overlooked. I think people expected a tactical book with advanced concepts, similar to the intersting ideas in HOH2. I also expected this, but quickly realized that Barry assumes you have already established a style, and are a winning player, and his intentions are to show you what you need to take the next step.
His book really delves into how to approach poker in a professional manner. Ace On The River is an "advanced" poker quide in the sense that it contains the material that winning poker players will need to handle the lifestyle and plug leaks..not as much in their game, but in there approach to the game.
Barry stresses the importance of approching poker as professionally as possible, which will allow for you to maximize your profits over the long run. His sections on money managment, game selection, and how to approcah a game and move up levels, trully explain the thought process of an elte professional when they are preparing for a session.
Overall the book was not exactly what I expected, but once I realized that this was not a tactical anylisis book, I defintly got allot out of it. There is some tactical discussion of tournement holdem, and a few other games, but not as much to teach you to playlike Barry, but as window into the mind of an elte players thoughts during a hand.
Barrys book is a very entertaing read, with the pictures alone you will be amused by the book and I belive that they were a nice change of pace from typical poker strategy books. No compliants here about the images. As far astactical information, this just isnt really that type of book, but the information that Barry presents you with will be things that seem obvious, but not many people do, or even think about. This book will help you approach the game of poker in a simalar manner as Barry Greenstien, very anylitacal, prepared, realistic, and professional.
A good read, and a change of pace.
-$LL$

[bobdibble]

Have you read Inside the Poker Mind, and if so, how would you compare the two of them? I think ITPM does a better job of achieving what you described in your post.

But.. I enjoyed Barry's book and recommend it.

[kurosh]

I am extremely disappointed with the lack of strategy content and overabundance of bs.

[Jeff W]

I concur with the original poster. 25 & 27 are the meat and potatoes.

I don't need advice on money management and the content re: emotional management did not make an impact even though I need to improve in that area.

Still, I'm happy with the book because Ch. 25 & 27 alone are worth the cover price.

[ornthnooth]

Where did you guys get Barry's book? I was looking forward to the release so much that I preorded it in May on Amazon. It said that I should expect it July 7-9th. Right now my account says that it has yet to ship. I thought that maybe the release was delayed until I saw all the reviews on here.
Anybody else have this problem? If I find it at the book store, Amazon's getting a nastygram from me.

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
Where did you guys get Barry's book? I was looking forward to the release so much that I preorded it in May on Amazon. It said that I should expect it July 7-9th. Right now my account says that it has yet to ship. I thought that maybe the release was delayed until I saw all the reviews on here.
Anybody else have this problem? If I find it at the book store, Amazon's getting a nastygram from me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Same thing happened to me. I pre-ordered from Amazon in mid June. In early July, it said that the estimated shipping date was July 5. On July 5, it said that the estimated shipping date was July 6. On July 6 and July 7, it still said that the estimated shipping date was July 6, but it hadn't shipped yet. So on the evening of July 7, I canceled my order and ordered it again (from Amazon). It then shipped immediately.

[SamG]

Yeah, I preordered mine months ago. Just today they are "preparing it for shipment."

[Jeff W]

I ordered mine off Amazon on 7/5 and received it on 7/12.

[imported_Chuck Weinstock]

Distribution and delivery of this book has been spotty at best. I am not sure why. My initial stock has not arrived yet and it is quite frustrating for me as well as for those of you who have ordered from ConJelCo.

[ornthnooth]

[ QUOTE ]
Distribution and delivery of this book has been spotty at best. I am not sure why. My initial stock has not arrived yet and it is quite frustrating for me as well as for those of you who have ordered from ConJelCo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad to hear that I'm not the only one and I am not retarded. I will wait patiently by the mailbox.

Maybe that's the hidden lesson of the book; patience.

I'm looking forward to getting my copy and finding out what all the fuss is about.

[Felipe]

[ QUOTE ]

I wish I could get my $41 back because I feel duped. The hyped failed to deliver again.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why i don't follow big hype. At least not immediately. I look things up, ask people, let the dust settle before making decisions. I pay A LOT when I act hastily. This is a good example.

[byronkincaid]

I've read the book and I totally agree with everything MicroBob says. If you've spent the last year or 2 reading this site then a lot of the stuff in the book seems to be very basic fluff. As a tournament player, I did enjoy the tourney hands section. I like the way he named the players he was up against.

[xxx]

Just finished the book. I enjoyed it.

More importantly some of the text made me think about some things in a different light. I will reread it soon.

I wish it were available in hardback.

[dogsballs]

I got the book and pretty much agree w/ OP & Microbob.

Thin on the good stuff. 4/10.

[Matt Ruff]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a unique book that is designed to help moderately high limit players, I would say those playing $80-$160 (like I do) and higher move to even bigger games and be successful.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's really the book's target audience, shouldn't the price be higher and the production values lower?

-- M. Ruff

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
Boon,

I would never want anyone to feel ripped off by me. I guess it is to be expected that there will be people who will not enjoy what I have written. Similarly, some people like me and some don't.

Send the book along with a note stating how much you spent including shipping (and shipping it back to us).

Here is the address:

Last Knight Publishing Company
P.O. Box 270006
Fort Collins, CO 80527

Be sure to include your address, and I will make sure you get your refund.

Thanks for taking the time to read the book, anyway. Sorry, you didn't get much out of it.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

wow!

I'm going to have to read it again just for that.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
at least a half dozen top poker pros and writers have said the book is incredible.

[/ QUOTE ]

My observation is many big name poker pros routinely hide their true opinions when it comes to promoting each others products.

~ Rick

[boondoggle]

Rick,

Thank you for stating that.

cheers
Boon

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi RIck:

I agree. I think it's shameful what some of these people will endorse, often for a fee.

This comment has no relevance to barry's book.

Best wishes,
Mason

[barryg1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
at least a half dozen top poker pros and writers have said the book is incredible.

[/ QUOTE ]

My observation is many big name poker pros routinely hide their true opinions when it comes to promoting each others products.

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

This was what I intentionally avoided with my book. I quoted what people actually said. (Obviously, you can make a case that they didn't want to offend me, but my poker sense says otherwise.) Other authors have been known to write the quotes for people and have them sign off.

My book is allegorical. For the beginner, it's a guide to the poker world. For the top players, it details the considerations that they face as professionals, which is where the “Advanced” part of the subtitle comes in. I had tested the book for two years before I put it out, and I already knew that there were players who fell right in the middle between the two levels it was written on, which prompted Phil Ivey's comment, "It will go over their heads."

Boone seems to be my least satisfied reader. I assume he is approximately an 80-160 player who doesn't value the psychology and philosophy because he doesn't play much in live games. I have read some of his posts and I have seen that he is very keen on proving himself to be right, instead of dissecting the merits in other’s ideas and using them to make even better decisions. My suggestions about being very understanding and non-confrontational in interpersonal relationships are diametrically opposed to his mission.

My book was essentially a 200 page book (which is a normal length) that I enhanced with photographs. Most people like the enhancement. Some view it as filler. I think the photography is spectacular, and I certainly spared no expense to get it done the way I wanted it.

On twoplustwo, I have had a few detractors say they knew almost everything in my book. If they fully understood, they wouldn't be middle-limit players anymore. I will try to satisfy the middle-limit players by adding a few more tournament hands in the second edition. (It will come out whenever the first 100,000 have been sold.) Hopefully, that will cover all the bases better.

You can check out the reviews on the “Links” page of my website, barrygreenstein.com. They have been spectacular. I chose not to include Boone’s review, so I guess I was selective, but I also omitted some very positive reviews that can be found on twoplustwo.

Barry

[Shaun]

It's not a strategy book, it's a window into the guy's mind. The advice is about being a proffessional, not about raising for free cards or playing AJ UTG.

I enjoyed it because of the personal anectdotes and ideas discussing the life of a proffessional. I am at the point where I want to hear about people who have chosen a life similar to my own (but on a larger scale) more than a book on strategy. There are plenty of those already.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Mason,

You wrote: "I think it's shameful what some of these people will endorse, often for a fee. "This comment has no relevance to barry's book."

My comment wasn't directed at Barry's book either, I just happened to end up in this thread because Barry's book is the one I'm most interested in reading about.

It just appears that some inferior, hastily put together products are simply out to take advantage of the poker boom where, among some "celebrity pros", there seems to be some sort of "tit for tat" i.e, you endorse my video/book/boot camp, I'll endorse yours.

A couple of days ago I was lucky enough to score "Harrington on Holdem Vol 2" and Barry's "Ace on the River" in the Hollywood Park Casino gift shop using my frequent flyer points. I've only had time to skim a bit of Barry's book, and if I had a problem it was that it was different than my expectations (and I had trouble reading the print often overlaying the graphics without my strongest reading glasses /images/graemlins/grin.gif).

Anyway, "Ace on the River" and the 20th and final volume of the Patrick O'Brien Aubrey/Maturin Napoleonic warfare series are waiting for me on a shaded porch during a nice Southern California day. I think I'll go there now.

Congrats on all your success and excellent products!

Regards,

Rick

PS Of course I've seen Barry's taken time to post another thoughtful response. If I further involve myself in this thread, it would probably be after I read and thought about the book.

[morgan180]

I just finished AOTR and I have to say that I really enjoyed reading it. I thought the insight in to the poker world was interesting and the hand examples at the end were set up in a great way. I personally read so fast that I consume information, the hand histories really made me stop and answer the questions and think about what was going on. I was happy that most of my answers matched when I turned the page.

This book is unlike the myriad other poker books that I have read. It is more like a conversation with Barry on poker, rather than a purely instructive text. I think more hand examples would give even more insight but I have to say I was very impressed with it, even though there has been mixed reaction here.

[Shandrax]

[ QUOTE ]
My book is allegorical. For the beginner, it's a guide to the poker world. For the top players, it details the considerations that they face as professionals, which is where the “Advanced” part of the subtitle comes in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I received my copy yesterday and from what I can tell so far, this quote is very fitting. Every chapter is like an essay on the different aspects of poker and the life as a pokerplayer with all the risks and rewards. It shows very well that mastering the technical part of poker alone isn't enough to be successful at the highest level.

If you don't expect it to be a how-to-play guide like HEFAP then I am sure that you will enjoy this book a lot.

[Randy Burgess]

I've read all the comments to date and understand the split between those who want a purely instructional book, and those who are open to something a little different.

I suspect, though, that those in the anti-camp who go so far as to call the book "fluff" tend to be on the younger side. It probably takes a bit more bitter experience to hear what Greenstein is saying about life and responsibility, not just odds and outs. He's not a kid nor does he appear to be writing for kids. And by "kid" I mean state of mind, not just biological age; you can stay a kid well into your 30s, or be forced to become an adult when you're still in your teens.

"Ace on the River" reminds me in a way of "Education of a Poker Player" and "Super System I." Not because of the content - the three books are very different - but because of the willingness in each case of the middle-aging author to spill a little blood from his veins onto the page.

[Malachii]

Yes indeed. I for one thoroughly enjoyed Mr. Greenstein's book.

[scarr]

[ QUOTE ]
Chapter 16-- "Poker and Your Sexuality"

2 pages describing how some men will "quit good games" to chase women. Another useless chapter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you missed the most important part of that chapter. At the end he suggests that you take your sexual partner with you when you travel to play poker. Reducing sexual tension, before you sit down to play poker will keep you from being distracted at the table.

Not only that, Barry gave me a legitament excuse to get laid before I play online. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[mike4bmp]

I don't know...I felt that it was definitely worth the read. The book is more for those who really intend on becoming pro....there is a lot of "what you should know" advice in it...for instance protecting oneself from being cheated...casino security and surveillence...etc.

[TStoneMBD]

i just read the book over this week and must say that i am very disappointed.

i will give credit to barry's book as an above average poker read. even though i did not pay for it as i borrowed a friend's copy, it would have certainly been worth the $25 cover price. however, almost any book is worth the price. the time of reading it is what is important.

at most, i learned about how a respected high limit player thinks and i came to the realization that this level of thinking doesnt appear to be as advanced as i had assumed. there was also many important life lessons spoken about in this book that would have certainly helped me a great deal had i not been introduced to this forum. i have learned alot about poker here, as well as from my limited experience, and i understand how important life management is as a poker pro.

there are many high limit players who have tremendous talent that hit pitfalls in life decisions, and this book will do them a great wonder. while i certainly feel that there are many things i will have to overcome as a poker player outside of the table, i dont feel that this book touched on those areas. i was not unfamiliar with anything written in this book and at best it just put things in a new perspective for me.

the biggest disappointment for me was the fact that barry had bolstered it by making it seem that his book was going to revolutionize the way the game was going to be played.

as far as the psychology concepts in this book is concerned, it is a picture book about life lessons written by a player who has snowboarded through his poker career. while i certainly respect any advice barry is willing to provide, when it comes to psychology ill take dr al.

[BluffTHIS!]

I too just read this book and although it doesn't claim to be a complete book on poker strategy it is very useful. The fact that you didn't get more from it despite Mason's high rating of it might only prove Phil Ivey's quote that it would be "over their heads". Barry's discussion of life, bankroll and game management should be useful for any level of professional player whether online or b&m, though especially b&m. And regarding strategy and the thought process of top players, if you didn't get something useful from it to add to your game then you must be some unknown master or famous pro with an anonymous handle. Mike Caro said in one his essays that the order in which you think about things is important. And Barry helps show you which things to think about in different games, especially when playing against other very good players. Even adding just a couple things like this to your game is well worth the price of the book.

I think that the reason that many have been negative about this book is that it isn't a series of densely-packed strategy essays. If you took some of Mason's or David's best essays from some of their books, and then added a bunch of other chapters that you considered somewhat fluff or not very helpful to you, that wouldn't mean those essays weren't worth reading or the price of the book. And like many such poker books, full-time poker players should re-read those essays a couple at a time occasionally and then think about them and how to incorporate some of those concepts into their game. As a player who plays full-time online in big bet games for high stakes at multiple tables, I can tell you that my primary purpose in study is to constantly improve my decision making process since multitabling online for big bucks means you need to think fast, correctly, and about the right things.

[Fantam]

I read this thread and it made me so mad! /images/graemlins/mad.gif

The author is a world class player and will have put a lot of thought and spent a lot of time into writing his book for the benefit of a lot of other people.

To criticise his efforts in the way that some people have done is quite frankly insulting and unfair to an obviously decent person and excellent poker player.

Not every poker book is full of technical content. I for one am very interested into what the realities of being a top poker playing professional may be like.

So I am going to order my copy of Ace on the River, and I very much look forward to reading it!

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
Boon,

I would never want anyone to feel ripped off by me. I guess it is to be expected that there will be people who will not enjoy what I have written. Similarly, some people like me and some don't.

Send the book along with a note stating how much you spent including shipping (and shipping it back to us).

Here is the address:

Last Knight Publishing Company
P.O. Box 270006
Fort Collins, CO 80527

Be sure to include your address, and I will make sure you get your refund.

Thanks for taking the time to read the book, anyway. Sorry, you didn't get much out of it.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

Talk about putting your money where your mouth is. Nice. I planned on buying the book. I still plan on buying despite this thread. It seems wierd that people are commenting on it without having read it fully.

Everyone who I know whos read it (small number) says it is a good read.

[shaniac]

[ QUOTE ]
To criticise his efforts in the way that some people have done is quite frankly insulting and unfair to an obviously decent person and excellent poker player.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's really not "unfair" in any way to read a book and criticize it. That's part of the purpose of this forum. The fact that he seems like an "obviously decent person" to you really has nothing to do with the matter at hand, which is the value of his book in the cannon of poker literature.

[ QUOTE ]
Not every poker book is full of technical content. I for one am very interested into what the realities of being a top poker playing professional may be like.

[/ QUOTE ]

I too looked forward to this book because I expected it to be a fresh insight into the mind and life of a super-rarefied high-stakes poker player. I was dissapointed. I enjoyed the early biographical chapter and was pleased at the inclusion of some of the peripheral aspects of the poker world, but ultimately the book came off as a half-asssed attempt to be some kind of Poker Bible. I didn't mind the relative paucity of strategic analysis, but it wasn't balanced by any real wealth of information or insight into other facets of poker life.

I don't think AOTR is well-written or candid enough to stand alone as an important document about poker culture (the way, for instance, The Biggest Game In Town, did) and it's not strategically comprehensive, so it's really just a handsome-looking book that makes a superficially pleasant addition to your poker library.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
I too looked forward to this book because I expected it to be a fresh insight into the mind and life of a super-rarefied high-stakes poker player. I was dissapointed.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you didn't find that by reading the book, then you only read the endpapers.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I too looked forward to this book because I expected it to be a fresh insight into the mind and life of a super-rarefied high-stakes poker player. I was dissapointed.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you didn't find that by reading the book, then you only read the endpapers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'm sure you'll point to the page numbers where we get said fresh insight.

[boondoggle]

Barry,

I am glad that some people have enjoyed your book. It appears that your book is aimed towards poker players who are emotionally challenged (i.e. not making good life decisions). That being said, I do not fall into that category thus the scathing review.

Also, I am not surprised that you did not include my review of your book on your site.

Finally, I mailed the book and my address back to your publishing company (the address you posted in this thread) and have yet to recieve any monies back.

cheers
Boon

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I too looked forward to this book because I expected it to be a fresh insight into the mind and life of a super-rarefied high-stakes poker player. I was dissapointed.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you didn't find that by reading the book, then you only read the endpapers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'm sure you'll point to the page numbers where we get said fresh insight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure you won't get that...but you'll probably get a response that you are most likely an online player and thus are not able to grasp the hidden advanced concepts in the book that will allow you to take your game to the next level.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm sure you won't get that...but you'll probably get a response that you are most likely an online player and thus are not able to grasp the hidden advanced concepts in the book that will allow you to take your game to the next level.

[/ QUOTE ]

That goes without saying. Bobdibble and I have been trying to get these guys to point to the deep dark hidden secrets of said book for awhile now. The profound psychology, the advanced thought processes, all that. What we get in return are Phil Ivey quotes and other nonsense implying that we're jus' plain ignurint.

What I'd prefer is an honest answer. "Many mid-limit and even upper-limit poker professionals are socially or emotionally retarded. They need to be reminded constantly that lending money to others is dangerous, that playing games too big for your bankroll is unwise, that always playing your best game is difficult, that being rude to the tourists can negatively impact your bottom line, and that sometimes women can be a distraction harmful to your game."

Done, and done.

[terrisp]

At the WSOP I talked to several people had the read the book and were very disappointed with it. Perhaps these people are just "middle limit players" who couldn't understand the high level content that some claim is in the book. I don't know Barry personally, but from what I read, I have tremendous respect for him. But this doesn't mean he's can write a good poker book. I'm going to read his book and find out for myself but I have been surprised by the amount of people who say that they were disappointed. When SSH came out, the poker crowd was not divided about how great that book was.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
At the WSOP I talked to several people had the read the book and were very disappointed with it. Perhaps these people are just "middle limit players" who couldn't understand the high level content that some claim is in the book. I don't know Barry personally, but from what I read, I have tremendous respect for him. But this doesn't mean he's can write a good poker book. I'm going to read his book and find out for myself but I have been surprised by the amount of people who say that they were disappointed. When SSH came out, the poker crowd was not divided about how great that book was.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the book was decent. It has a few real good chapters on his thought process during hands, some interesting thoughts on his views (such as his motivation to take money from lowlifes), and its a very nice produced book. I would rate it a 6 or a 7.

Barry G is one of the best (if not the best) poker players in the world and plays in the biggest cash games out there. Given the potential here, I was disappointed.

Its like ARod hitting .290 with 25 home runs for the Yankees. Great effort for most of the league, but for him very disappointing.

[barryg1]

[ QUOTE ]
Barry,

I am glad that some people have enjoyed your book. It appears that your book is aimed towards poker players who are emotionally challenged (i.e. not making good life decisions). That being said, I do not fall into that category thus the scathing review.

Also, I am not surprised that you did not include my review of your book on your site.

Finally, I mailed the book and my address back to your publishing company (the address you posted in this thread) and have yet to recieve any monies back.

cheers
Boon

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have to check into it. I asked the publisher last week and he claimed that there had been no returns.

Barry

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Bobdibble and I have been trying

[/ QUOTE ]


don't forget me.

info on 'you should tip delaers and chip-runners' and 'dont blow all your winnings on strippers or betting sports' did not really provide me any significant insight either.


Again...I enjoyed the book relatively speaking. But this 'next level' stuff regarding the psychology I'm just not getting because I didn't see anything that revolutionary in there.

[barryg1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bobdibble and I have been trying

[/ QUOTE ]


don't forget me.

info on 'you should tip delaers and chip-runners' and 'dont blow all your winnings on strippers or betting sports' did not really provide me any significant insight either.


Again...I enjoyed the book relatively speaking. But this 'next level' stuff regarding the psychology I'm just not getting because I didn't see anything that revolutionary in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

If really amazes me that many people read things that I didn't write, because that was their own understanding of the subjects I talked about. For instance, when I talked about the pragmatic value of tipping and the information and assistance you can get from it, you and others thought I was talking about how the people in the casino need the extra money to supplement their normal income.

The problem with my book (and probably with any book) is that it doesn't apply to everyone's situation. I thought I did a good job of explaining what I think about in my life in poker and as I think through individual hands. It is critical for me to be able to think about the relevant things very quickly. However, people who primarily play limit hold'em on the Internet are playing a game that is more about hand values against faceless opponents.

I can't even read the books you guys think are good. They don't apply to me and the poker I play. But I certainly have made them recommended reading for my son, who has been playing for a year.

When I discussed the 2+2 books with Mason and David, I said the problem I have with them is that they break down at high levels. They then said that if people read my book without acquiring the fundamentals that can be found in their material, they will not get much out of my book, and they will try to make sophisticated plays on hands that they will lose money with in the long run.

There really is some good material in my book on how to think and what not to think about. Spend a few years in live games and read my book again and see if you get more out of it.

In the meantime, lend it out to friends who either don't know much about poker, or have spent many years playing in casinos. Those people will enjoy it.

Barry

[Piers]

I thought the book was well presented and interested. Aimed mainly at the B&M, its not going to revolutionise the game, but a lot of people will be helped by it.

10/10 is over the top, which I don’t think is that much of a criticism.

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, when I talked about the pragmatic value of tipping and the information and assistance you can get from it

[/ QUOTE ]

Acutally, I did find that part interesting, but it won't be relevant to me for a long time. There are always big donators in the live games in which I play, so I don't need calls from the floor letting me know when a live one has come in. Mabye once I build my BR up to the point where I can safely play the local 2/400 game, this particular tip will be more relevant.

Barry, I'm curious if you have read Inside the Poker Mind (2+2), and if so, what are your opinions the non-strategy sections?

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't even read the books you guys think are good. They don't apply to me and the poker I play. But I certainly have made them recommended reading for my son, who has been playing for a year.

When I discussed the 2+2 books with Mason and David, I said the problem I have with them is that they break down at high levels.

. . .

There really is some good material in my book on how to think and what not to think about. Spend a few years in live games and read my book again and see if you get more out of it.

In the meantime, lend it out to friends who either don't know much about poker, or have spent many years playing in casinos. Those people will enjoy it.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two axes that are getting confounded here -- and I think that to some degree, you're responsible for confounding them with some of the comments you have made.

The first is High-Level-Pro vs Middle-Limit or Low-Limit player.

The second is Brick & Mortar player vs Internet player.

When you make statements like "I can't read the books you like, but I recommend them to my (implied: novice) son", "The 2+2 books break down at high levels", "I have had a few detractors say they knew almost everything in my book. If they fully understood, they wouldn't be middle-limit players anymore" and of course the Phil Ivey quote, "It will go over their heads", you imply strongly that those that do not appreciate your book are missing out on something deep, difficult, and profound.

On the other hand, you've also made much more reasonable (in my opinion) comments to the effect that your book will not be as appreciated by internet players as there is less player interaction in such an environment. You have not spelled it out, but I would imagine that among internet players there is less risk of ruining the game by insulting the fish, less risk of getting pulled into poor social habits that hurt one's bankroll, and of course, live players in general build up their bankroll slower, and so the danger of losing it all due to taking shots at higher limits is much greater.

It's a bruised-ego thing. We don't like being told that because we don't fully appreciate the material in your book, we're destined to be mid-limit chumps forever. We also fail to see how so many people so easily get trapped into blowing huge portions of their bankroll on women, sports betting, craps, and staking crappy players, all while chasing tourists away from their tables by being insulting or condescending. It is not that we don't appreciate that many, many poker players have fallen into those traps -- it's just that your advice seems pretty damn obvious, at least from behind a computer screen /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

We also appreciate the attempt to discuss psychology -- and there are important psychological issues to be dealt with, even for Internet players, when it comes to playing your best/dealing with tilt -- it's just that in general I don't think those two areas are dealt with in much depth in your book, especially compared to what we have found in other materials.

That pretty much sums it up. I think we both agree that internet players will get less from much of your book, and even that live players must be able to appreciate the advice you give about playing in a B&M, and the dangers therein. Where I disagree is that said lessons are very profound, or difficult to learn /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Definitely not "over my head", and not what's stopping me from being more than a mid-limit player. Not that I play live, but what'd stop me from being a upper-limit player would have more to do with my complete lack of observational skills (a tell? What's a tell?) than the risk I'd blow my bankroll at the craps table.

[boondoggle]

Barry,

I just asked my wife and she said she mailed it 2-3 weeks ago.
I included a printed copy of your comment in this thread stating that I should return it for a refund along with my return address.

cheers
Boon

[barryg1]

Let me give you one example of next-level thinking in my book, that you can get from following my thoughts about poker. At the level of the books that are out there, you get an idea of a zero-play: a bet or raise that will only get called by a hand that beats it. This may happen when you have a pretty good hand. The books out there will recommend that you check, and they are right.

But at the next level, as I show in some examples, you need to be aware of times when you don't have a very good hand, but your opponent has a hand that will not call your bet or raise. Most players don't tie these two situations together properly. You need to have the same betting pattern in both of these situations that come up so frequently in no-limit hold'em and seven-card stud.

The expertise comes in knowing when these situations exist and when they don't.

There are players who take this to an extreme, and go through long sequences of getting the last bet in, being called on the river, and saying, "Take it."

I don't think players who don't like my book are stupid. I think it just doesn't hit them where they currently are. The funny thing is, that although there have been many detractors in this thread, it has actually been good for my book. I never said my book would be the Holy Grail of poker, although some people have attributed such quotes to me. This lead to high expectations that could not be met. This thread has lowered prospective readers' expectations, which is a good thing.

The second good thing for sales is that this thread created controversy, which is always good for attention and results in extra readers who want to be able to form their own opinions.

Of course, I would rather have everyone say how much they liked my book, but I intently listened to any criticism from readers before the book was out so I could improve it, and I'm still listening so I can see how it could be better.

Barry

[shaniac]

[ QUOTE ]
The expertise comes in knowing when these situations exist and when they don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, that expertise only really comes from hard-fought experience. The road one travels in his poker career can't be safely mapped out, and any book that attempts to do so will inevitably fall short. When I read a poker book, I seek to be educated or entertained. I would never expect or want a book on poker to determine my level exposure to the game, I'd prefer to find out for myself through trial and error. That's really the only way it seems to happen effectively.

Of course, in one's poker odyssey, it helps to have read Theory of Poker to know what many others know about the game, and A. Alvarez' contribution to poker history with The Biggest Game in Town is invaluable. But there is no amount of reading, analyzing, dreaming or discussing about poker that can truly prepare someone for what it's like to get out there and play full time and for high-stakes. I spent the duration of the WSOP in Vegas this year--my first time at the Series--and it was certainly a heavy experience, alternately trying and exhilirating. Of course, I had to battle with many of the vices and traps that you discuss in your book, but reading your book beforehand would probably not have helped me avoid them. I really believe that most people will succeed or fail in poker based on how well they naturally plug the leaks in their game and lifestyle. I respect the fact that you attempted to guide people through these pitfalls in your book, but believing that your words will succeed in this effort is an idealistic and slightly hubristic notion. That partly why I think a lot of people on this forum have harbored a negative reaction to the book.

I'd like to mention that I truly respect what you've done in the way of charitable deeds with your tournament winnings and your efforts to open the mind of the poker community as a whole. You totally embody the passage from Dylan's great "Ramblin' Gamblin' Willie" ..."He supported all his children, and all their mothers, too/He wore no rings and fancy things like other gamblers wore/He spread his money far and wide to help the sick and poor." So I'm not trying to condemn your book (or get a refund)--and I hope it sells well--I'm just trying to outline why I think your goals in writing the book are a bit askew.

[TStoneMBD]

I think that I may have a comment that will bridge the gap in understanding the expectations of your book between us internet players and yourself Barry. As a person who started his poker career in live casinos and moved to internet play, I do have some limited experience and entirely realize that both lifestyles are very different.

Your book does not push the envelop for the new generation of players, not necessarily because they play on the internet, but as a whole, aspiring players are developing faster than players of previous generations. Your book would have been excellent 10 years ago, or even sooner, but much of the advice is no longer as applicable to most of the players you are targetting to; young, gifted players.

Players who have been brought up through brick and mortar have gone through entirely different learning practices than those brought up in the internet age. Many casino players are mainly self-taught. They learn experience as they go and they do not have guidance, or their guidance is from a limited source. The new race of exploding players are coming from a generation in which information and knowledge is earned at a much faster and advanced pace.

I believe that I can speak confidently when I say that Twoplustwo.com is the innovative leader for aspiring poker players during the internet age. It may surprise you that the life lessons presented in this book are not as well accepted as you would have liked. Those who have used the Phil Ivey quote saying that this book will go over many player's heads as a way to discredit any poor reviews is a copout in my opinion. I am willing to accept that in my situation, this book may have indeed went over my head, but I do not feel that way and am trying to review your book from an honest and objective standpoint. Whatever my, or our reviews are worth to you is for you to decide.

Your intentions for writing this book are not being questioned by me. I believe that you tried to give something back to the poker community, and you certainly have. However, I do believe that you could have performed better. When writing this book, I'm sure that the responses of your readers would be of great praise, as you have worked hard and feel that you deserve it. I empathize with you here and I hope that any negative remarks you receive do not deter you from writing any books in the future, but rather inspire stronger work from you or others who plan on writing in the future.

I have rated your book as above average, but I feel that poker literature as a whole is very much lacking. In many books, there is very little technical analysis. Instead, there are many broad and basic concepts. There are many players such as yourself who understand poker on levels far greater than what has been presented in text. Maybe it is difficult to translate this understanding into language. After reading 16 books, I feel that David Sklansky has performed the best when trying to express advanced concepts. However, it could still be improved on. If you are trying to improve the play of high-stakes players, it means that you need to present information that they are not aware of. That is a hard thing to do. Trying to teach life lessons to these players will certainly help people who need help in this area, but you should realize that you will be disappointing the other players at this level who need to improve their technical abilities moreso than their viewpoints on life.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I would rather have everyone say how much they liked my book, but I intently listened to any criticism from readers before the book was out so I could improve it, and I'm still listening so I can see how it could be better.

[/ QUOTE ]



and this is why my respect for you has absolutely soared.
Your open-mindedness in this area is admirable.


Grisga very nicely articulated many of my feeling on the book.

I think there are other issues that you have touched on in this thread that would make great book material. Your ideas on the importance (or lack thereeof) of some of the 2+2 books in the highest stakes games is very interesting to me too (for example).

[barryg1]

[ QUOTE ]
Your ideas on the importance (or lack thereeof) of some of the 2+2 books in the highest stakes games is very interesting to me too (for example).

[/ QUOTE ]

Twoplustwo books serve their readership well. The difference is partly due to the structure we play that puts a premium on taking the correct actions rather than starting with the best hand.

We try to avoid structures or games that will allow a tight player to win. Our stud games normally have a 1 to 4 ante-to-small bet ratio, and the ante in the no-limit games is generally equal to the small blind. We also play gambling games like Omaha, Omaha 8/b, and triple draw -- games in which you can win playing suspect starting hands if your opponents don't bet their hands aggressively enough.

I think this training carries over to tournaments well, where the people playing on the values of their cards get ground down and have trouble getting ahold of a lot of chips.

Barry

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me give you one example of next-level thinking in my book, that you can get from following my thoughts about poker. At the level of the books that are out there, you get an idea of a zero-play: a bet or raise that will only get called by a hand that beats it. This may happen when you have a pretty good hand. The books out there will recommend that you check, and they are right.

But at the next level, as I show in some examples, you need to be aware of times when you don't have a very good hand, but your opponent has a hand that will not call your bet or raise. Most players don't tie these two situations together properly. You need to have the same betting pattern in both of these situations that come up so frequently in no-limit hold'em and seven-card stud.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regarding the disconnect and criticisms, I was not speaking of the hand examples, but rather the twenty-odd chapters before the hand examples. I have not yet read the final chapters, but I would find it hard to believe that anyone would find fault there. Most criticism you are getting stems from the seeming simplicity of what you say on the psychological/philosophical side regarding interactions with other people and self-management, i.e., that the majority of your book isn't actually all that helpful on those counts to those already aware of those pretty obvious traps.

And as I said, I think that that is much more an Internet player vs Brick & Mortar player issue than it is a High-Limit-Pro vs Middle-Limit-player issue.

But betting patterns, though . . . trust me, that's something that both good live and internet players appreciate the need to pay attention to.

[cantsitstillbr]

[ QUOTE ]

The second good thing for sales is that this thread created controversy, which is always good for attention and results in extra readers who want to be able to form their own opinions.


[/ QUOTE ]

I ordered this book soley from this reason. lol

[afish]

I thought the book was excellent.

I have been playing for six years exclusively in B&M casinos. I've worked up from 3-6 to 20-40 (which Barry labels "low limit" hold'em). The book really captures a lot of the pathologies of B&M casinos. I do believe the book is more valuable to B&M players.

Barry, by admitting his weaknesses, allows players to recognize and correct their weaknesses. Many posters on these forums believe they play a perfect game. Barry says he makes 10 mistakes a night. My experiences mirror Barry's more than the claims of the posters on these forums. I think Barry is being a little more honest with himself.

There are a couple of concepts I really hadn't seen anywhere else. For example, Barry argues that many players play well when winning; it is the ability to avoid tilt that separates the winners from the losers. Maybe that's obvious, but I hadn't really thought of things that way. Also, Barry suggests buying in for the minimum. I've never done that, but I see the arguments supporting this approach.

Last weekend, I was in AC for the day, and I stopped by the Borgata before going home. There were lists for the games, and I was a little tired. I thought of Barry's book, and I drove home without playing a hand. Thanks Barry.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

The only reason I was dissapointed was that I expected many more examples of next level thinking with hand examples. I wasn't expecting information on sports betting and prostitutes.

I know there are MANY 2+2 readers who would gladly purchase a book of primarily hand examples and concepts(ME!). I understand that writing these books is a huge undertaking, but I'm sure you could find a hand or 2 after each section worth writing a page about.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Barry,

I'll put this here because I responded above in a way that may have looked like I was taking a stab at your book.

I had time to read your entire book the last few days. IMO it was an excellent read on what it takes to be successful in the big stakes game. I was impressed that your book appeared heartfelt and honest, something often lacking in poker books with a major autobiographical component.

The play and tournament lessons, although not long, were of the highest quality.

A few comments regarding your post above:

[ QUOTE ]
My book was essentially a 200 page book (which is a normal length) that I enhanced with photographs. Most people like the enhancement. Some view it as filler. I think the photography is spectacular, and I certainly spared no expense to get it done the way I wanted it.

[/ QUOTE ]

After giving the photos a long, full view I agree that they are the finest ever included in a casino or poker book. They are "coffee table quality", as I believe one other poster put it.

[ QUOTE ]
On twoplustwo, I have had a few detractors say they knew almost everything in my book. If they fully understood, they wouldn't be middle-limit players anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very fair assessment. For example, every player should answer the "Personal Profile Questions" on page 56 and read your analysis that follows. Few players (obviously including myself) know all of these things.

~ Rick

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
I have not yet read the final chapters, but I would find it hard to believe that anyone would find fault there. Most criticism you are getting stems from the seeming simplicity of what you say on the sychological/philosophical side regarding interactions with other people and self-management, i.e., that the majority of your book isn't actually all that helpful on those counts to those already aware of those pretty obvious traps.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gris, Once again I see that you are another poster who has made the stupefying decision to post in this forum regarding a book he has not read at all or read completely. Like I said in an earlier post here, this book is not like one of Mason's essay books. And the later chapters in the book are definitely the best ones, so who cares whether the earlier ones don't really help them? But even if you think you really do understand self-management and traps to avoid in order to be a successful pro like non-poker leaks (both -EV games like craps as well as bad sports betting), drinking, drugs and improper bankroll management (playing above or below your bankroll or not dropping down after a bad run and re-evaluating), my bet is that you really don't truly understand all the traps that come up over time and that start out small and become big problems.

I am also astounded that many of you posters don't even get anything from those last chapters. Maybe it is because you play such low limits that most decisions for you are pot-driven ones rather than player-driven ones. At the stakes I play, even the bad players are notches above the bad ones at lower levels as well as even some the better ones at lower levels by virtue of their aggressiveness and reading skills. The whole key at higher levels like I said in that earlier post is what things you think about and in which order. Barry's book helps you to do that. And like one of his recent posts in this thread said, one of the keys to winning at any higher level of stakes is being able to win with marginal hands by betting out another marginal hand that would nonetheless beat yours if shown down. And if some of you really do think you already know these things well, then start a thread in the poker theory forum stating what you think about in a hand as well as the stakes and game you are playing in and let's see.

[ QUOTE ]
And as I said, I think that that is much more an Internet player vs Brick & Mortar player issue than it is a High-Limit-Pro vs Middle-Limit-player issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you would actually read the last chapter of Barry's book, you would find that the strategic thought process that is key to higher stakes is applicable to both internet and B&M. In fact, as a player who plays full-time and almost exclusively online now in big bet games, I can tell you it might even be more important for internet players to know these things well since when multitabling you not only have to think about the right things but also think very fast.

I have one final comment as to why I think many of you don't get much from this book besides the fact you might play at too low of stakes for it to matter. And that is that you are not truly tight-aggressive as recommended in all 2+2 books but are really weak-tight and avoid games with structures that as Barry noted tend to punish overly tight play, as well as the fact that you probably are letting the true TAGs run over you with marginal hands because they know they can make you fold so many non-nut hands just because you see them show down good hands versus bad players and not waste money trying to bluff those calling stations, whereas they are playing you for the type of players you are.

[adios]

One criteria I have for a poker book is if the playing advice has a +EV greater than the value of the book then it's a good book. Easily this book is +EV greater than the cost of the book for me anyway.

[Wada]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The second good thing for sales is that this thread created controversy, which is always good for attention and results in extra readers who want to be able to form their own opinions.


[/ QUOTE ]

I ordered this book soley from this reason. lol

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here. And I like the book and enjoyed it. I am more of a live player than online. I know online is more +EV than live but I enjoy live play more. I agree with you guys that the book pertains to live play. It is an excellent book for a live player.

The book helped me with a few things. Alot of you say that the book already talks about things that we already know. But how many times do we still do things even when we know we should not? We all know that we should not gamble when we are tired. But we do it anyways for some reason. Its kinda like a married man knowing its wrong to cheat on his wife but does it anyways. There are many aspects in this book of things we should not do, know we should not do it, but do it anyways.

I think the book does go over our heads because most of us do not really stop and think to self-evaluate or self-critque our mind set before, during, and after our playing session.

Great book Barry, thank you.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
Gris, Once again I see that you are another poster who has made the stupefying decision to post in this forum regarding a book he has not read at all or read completely.


[/ QUOTE ]

It would indeed be a stupefying decision to post in this forum regarding a book I had not read at all. On the other hand, it is not stupefying to post in this forum regarding a book that I've read 4/5ths of, especially when much of the praise the book has been receiving is targeted at that 4/5ths. This should not be difficult to understand.

Read the very very first post in this thread. Boondoggle says that he likes the last chapters, but that he feels most of the preceding material is fluff. No offense to Barry, who obviously put a lot of work into this book, but he cannot counter this argument by saying that a good example of "taking it to the next level" play is in his hand-example chapters. No one is criticizing those. What's drawing a target is the 20+ chapters prior, specifically, that many readers seem to be claiming that they are super-duper-fantasticalicious life-changing chapters that are absolutely necessary to bring one's game to the next level. Those that have called those chapters "fluff" have been told
--they don't appreciate the psychological aspects of poker
--they're just "math guys"
--they'll never be more than mid-limit players

and so on, and so on. As I've already said, I'd prefer that we just agree that most of that material isn't relevant or super-helpful to internet players or players that are emotionally mature. It's not *bad* or *incorrect*, just not as profound a breakthrough as has been claimed by some.

[ QUOTE ]
I am also astounded that many of you posters don't even get anything from those last chapters. Maybe it is because you play such low limits that most decisions for you are pot-driven ones rather than player-driven ones . . . I have one final comment as to why I think many of you don't get much from this book besides the fact you might play at too low of stakes for it to matter. And that is that you are not truly tight-aggressive as recommended in all 2+2 books but are really weak-tight and avoid games with structures that as Barry noted tend to punish overly tight play, as well as the fact that you probably are letting the true TAGs run over you with marginal hands because they know they can make you fold so many non-nut hands just because you see them show down good hands versus bad players and not waste money trying to bluff those calling stations, whereas they are playing you for the type of players you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play 10/20, 20/40, and 30/60 shorthanded limit HE online, and play a style that is looser than that of most 2+2'ers. (Not that I'm saying their style is wrong.) If I played these games weak-tight, I wouldn't be beating the games for 2BB+/100. Shorthanded play is all about knowing what to do with your marginal hands. But thank you for taking wild and completely uneducated guesses regarding my playing style after criticizing me for commenting on a book of which I've only read 80%.

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with my book (and probably with any book) is that it doesn't apply to everyone's situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that I have read all of the posts in this thread over its lifetime. Without going into any specifics or addressing any particular poster, the overbearing tone of the vast majority of critics of Barry's book is that it is not what those readers wanted or expected. Frankly, a lot of the carping sounds like someone who bought a Porsche whining about its inability to haul plywood.

A good deal of the problem stems from individual behaviour on this forum. The first thing is the gotta-have-it-now attitude about new books. If you absolutely, positively must pre-order a new book with overnight shipping, you face the risk of the book not being what you want it to be. Cooler heads wait for a few reviews from the early adaptors.

And part of that problem follows from the inevitable in-depth discussions here about the content and value of unpublished books. I have even seen comparative analysis of two unpublished books, discussing in detail which will give the better treatment of specific topics. Speculation about a book's content inevitably leads to expectations about its content.

Many here had seriously erroneous expectations about Barry's book, based on errouneous speculation in this forum. The only objective information available about the book before its publication was contained on Barry's website. Some here who viewed that information speculated that the book might not be for them, and would wait and see. Others speculated that the information there was not really indicative of the contents, and that the actual book would be more in line with what they wanted and expected. You wonder what goes through their minds.

The fact that Barry's book does not apply to everyone's situation is not a problem with the book, it is a problem with the uninformed buyer.

And as much as I enjoyed the book, I am still ticked off that it didn't address Party Sit-n-Go strategy, which is what I really wanted him to write.

[Grisgra]

The reason for all of this sturm un drang is that those critical of the book have been attacked mercilessly by fans of the book. Felicia Lee's comments on Boondoggle's review are just about as perfect example as I can find. The response to the criticism "Most of the book is fluff" has not just been "It's not fluff!", it's been "It's not fluff, and you suck as poker players and you'll never go anywhere. Ha ha!" Hell, look at BluffThis's recent response to my criticism, in which he claims that the reason I don't appreciate Barry's book MUST be that I am a weak-tight player that gets pushed around by TAGs a lot. WTF?

Really, it's just bizarre. I actually like Barry, respect him a great deal, and, as an aside, hope he wipes the floor with Danny N. in all of those challenge matches /images/graemlins/grin.gif. But the comments of some of his rabid fans -- and, to be honest, some comments he himself has made -- have gone a bit too far re questioning the abilities of anyone who doesn't find those sections of his book very useful.

[BigEndian]

Barry, I'm not here to either trumpet the book or throw it down a well. I will say that I found it gripping and read it through in one sitting. And also that I found it well worth my time. Good job.

- Jim

[MyMindIsGoing]

I agree with what you wrote about the behaviur and stuff (I have not read the book). I think that most people expects so much of everything and demands what ever they need now. If a $25 book is not the best book they ever read then the book must be total crap. The bad attitude of the kids today... Nothing is good enough! Man I am sick of all [censored]....

[MicroBob]

i'm with grisgra 100% on his posts here.


FWIW - Benfranklin seemed to hint that some disappointment could arise from waiting awhile for the book to be shipped or something like that (as well as projections from these forums).


I did not have to wait AT ALL for it. I was at the WSOP trade-show in Vegas and the Gamblers Book shop booth had it. I bought a copy (didn't even know it had been released...but then, there is was!!)

All I knew about it ahead of time was 'Barry Greenstein is writing a book. Cool!! Looking forward to it.'

I had no expectations of whether it would be a 'math-strategy' book or an autobiography or what.
didn't matter to me...it was by Greenstein and I knew I would be purchasing a copy for that reason alone.


I was NOT looking for another math-based type book.
I was NOT looking for another Mason poker-essays type book.
There was NOTHING specific I was looking for.

I just started reading stuff about 'the people in the casino' and I thought that was a strange inclusion.


Another FWIW - I don't think that bracketing me into 'internet-player' would be entirely fair.

I am familiar with the casino scene from my time as a card-counter. B&M play is a bit slower and obviously less profitable for me compared with multi-table grinding online. So for my income I choose internet play....for occasional recreation (with a hint of income thrown in) I'll hit the B&M.

I was a BJ dealer for almost a year...and know my way around a bit.

I just think that the talk of the various 'traps' is just painfully obvious.
Obviously a poker-player at live casinos is subject to these temptations moreso than in other places.
But I think there are similar traps in MANY walks of life.


Perhaps it's my pre-poker and pre-dealing background that lends me to these thoughts of 'well...these traps are everywhere and should be kind of obvious.'

For 10+ years I was a radio play-by-play sports-broadcaster (minor league baseball and hockey..as well as college sports).
I would travel to towns big and small (from Pikeville, KY and Lancaster, Ohio and Glens Falls, NY to New York City, Dallas, Tampa, Chicago, etc) with the teams... usually on the same bus the team travelled on..unless I felt like driving seperately for whatever reason.


As one can guess....some of these road-trips were just gigantic drink-fests with all sorts of unhealthy behavior and it wasn't uncommon at all for the radio announcer to be a part of the gigantic fiesta.


I knew players who were disciplined enough to stay away from that stuff for the most part and give themselves the best chance to 'make it' to the next highest level or major leagues (as was everyone's dream/goal) but not all of the disciplined players made it of course.
And I also knew of several players who were probably drunk/hung-over/strung-out EVERYDAY who were still able to 'make it' in spite of themselves.


So my observations on the kind of sketchy activities available in Vegas that can lead you into all kinds of trouble might be a bit skewed because of my previous association in minor-league and college sports.


Also thinking of my GF who is a nurse at a hospital who knows of doctors who go out drinking and to strip-clubs on their lunch-breaks and come back with a certain strip-club type smell.


I dealt BJ to doctors and lawyers and so forth...and some of them were probably losing mroe than they should have been.
Professionals in a respected field (well....maybe, maybe not THAT respected) who were blowing large portions of their income on the same temptations Barry mentions. and they aren't even in Sin-City.


I mean...it's not EVERYWHERE around you like it is in Vegas...but that kind of stuff IS out there and is pretty easy to find.

ANYONE making a decent income would be wise not to blow it all on -EV gambling or strippers, not just poker-players.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
I play 10/20, 20/40, and 30/60 shorthanded limit HE online

[/ QUOTE ]

Stakes/structures too low to benefit from the book.

[MicroBob]

I think there are a lot of people who play lower than that who said they got a ton of benefit from the book.

Seriously...I don't understand the hostile/condescending attitude.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play 10/20, 20/40, and 30/60 shorthanded limit HE online

[/ QUOTE ]

Stakes/structures too low to benefit from the book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Precisely how high do the stakes have to be for me before I'd reel at the utter profundity of advice like "Playing too deep out of your bankroll is bad" or "Women, they can be a pesky distraction" or "Sports betting?! Be careful!"

As an aside, given the fact that online play at any given level is tougher than live play at the equivalent level, I wonder (honestly) what the live equivalent of a 30/60 online game is.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
"Women, they can be a pesky distraction"

[/ QUOTE ]



This has been my personal life-motto for years.

[4_2_it]

I just finished reading the book and I will say that the 2+2 books are probably better for my game ($0.50/$1 NL online, $2/$5 NL B&M). That's okay, because I have no ambition to become a pro or play the Big Game at the Bellagio. I am quite satisfied with my present station.

I enjoyed the presentation and the advice from someone who lives the life of a professional poker player. I found your book has helped me more easily explain the world of poker to my family and non-poker playing friends. Your book sits proudly on my coffee table and, as time passes, I am sure many will pick it up and be better for it.

One question, how did you produce a book of this quality and be able to sell it for $25? I would have gladly paid more to help the kids.............

[Anadrol 50]

I wonder what everyone's response would be if the book was published by 2+2?

[MicroBob]

I love almost all the 2+2 books but am equally critical if there is something in there that I disagree with.

In the situation regarding Ace on the River....if it was written by Sklansky...or ANYONE else and then published by 2+2...I would be asking the exact same questions:
"Don't you think that telling people that blowing their winnings on -EV sports-betting and strippers and other vices is just basic common sense?"
"Why is there info about the various people that work in a casino and other such content that I consider a bit 'fluffish'?"




I like the book in general (as I've stated a zillion times already). That doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to think that some of it is kind of 'fluff'....nor am I not allowed to think it isn't quite as revolutionary as others seem to think it is.

Nor will I stop from being insulted from those who tell me that the whole reason I don't think it's a great book is because I'm not a good enough player to 'get it' or was just interested in some math-based book to help be a better online player.

[TransientR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play 10/20, 20/40, and 30/60 shorthanded limit HE online

[/ QUOTE ]

Stakes/structures too low to benefit from the book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Precisely how high do the stakes have to be for me before I'd reel at the utter profundity of advice like "Playing too deep out of your bankroll is bad" or "Women, they can be a pesky distraction" or "Sports betting?! Be careful!"

As an aside, given the fact that online play at any given level is tougher than live play at the equivalent level, I wonder (honestly) what the live equivalent of a 30/60 online game is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes this snobbishness about stake levels reminds me of the famous exchange between Fitzgerald and Hemingway:

"The rich are different from you and me." -- F. Scott Fitzgerald.

"Yes, they have more money." -- Ernest Hemingway.

Frank

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
As an aside, given the fact that online play at any given level is tougher than live play at the equivalent level, I wonder (honestly) what the live equivalent of a 30/60 online game is.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no equivalent, I think that's the whole point. The differences between playing live and online, even amongst a similarly skilled set of players, can be huge. There are the obvious ones like tells, but there are many others. Varying your betting patterns is a much bigger consideration when you're playing live where people have time to think about and scrutinize your every move, than when your opponents are multitabling and trying to keep track of dozens of players constantly moving in and out of games. Especially if you're playing against virtually the same group of players every day, as you might at some of the higher limits live (and most certainly Barry does). Spotting when someone is steaming a bit, or just not playing their best, become important, especially as you move up in levels. And a whole host of other psychological factors that are not present (or, better put, are much harder or impossible to spot and exploit) online.

[voltron.]

dear barry,

your book is excellent. the pictures are really a good touch as well, these really enhance the book and are high quality. you really have done a good job at what you set out to do. thanks.

[mmcd]

I think what a lot of people may be missing about Barry's book regarding the "fluff" psychological stuff is that when moving up the higher levels, considerations other than making technically correct plays during particular hands are of the utmost importance. There could be two players with an identical set of "technical" poker skills, and the one who understands this could move up to 300/600 or whatever and the one who doesn't would still be stuck in 30/60, 50/100, and 80/160 games. There really is a lot more to the book than "Don't put your bankroll in jeopardy" and "Don't piss your money away on bad habits".

[microbet]

I was on the fence and this post pushed me over. I'm buying.

[LethalRose]

I have but 1 question.

I play .5/1 NL and dabble in 1/2 here and there. I dont have the time to study poker a lot. After reading this book will the information make me more than the $50 I'll shell out for it?

[___1___]

[ QUOTE ]
I think what a lot of people may be missing about Barry's book regarding the "fluff" psychological stuff is that when moving up the higher levels, considerations other than making technically correct plays during particular hands are of the utmost importance. There could be two players with an identical set of "technical" poker skills, and the one who understands this could move up to 300/600 or whatever and the one who doesn't would still be stuck in 30/60, 50/100, and 80/160 games. There really is a lot more to the book than "Don't put your bankroll in jeopardy" and "Don't piss your money away on bad habits".

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct. I play professionally and AT THIS POINT in my poker career I think this book will make me (and save me) more money than any book in circulation. The book is excellent for anyone who has serious interest in making money playing poker.

___1___

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think what a lot of people may be missing about Barry's book regarding the "fluff" psychological stuff is that when moving up the higher levels, considerations other than making technically correct plays during particular hands are of the utmost importance. There could be two players with an identical set of "technical" poker skills, and the one who understands this could move up to 300/600 or whatever and the one who doesn't would still be stuck in 30/60, 50/100, and 80/160 games. There really is a lot more to the book than "Don't put your bankroll in jeopardy" and "Don't piss your money away on bad habits".

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct. I play professionally and AT THIS POINT in my poker career I think this book will make me (and save me) more money than any book in circulation. The book is excellent for anyone who has serious interest in making money playing poker.

___1___

[/ QUOTE ]

Want to list a few of the chapters you think will be most beneficial to you? I admit, I feel as if I must have missed something in the first part of the book, because a lot of really talented players are rating thsoe sections higher than I would.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel as if I must have missed something in the first part of the book, because a lot of really talented players are rating thsoe sections higher than I would.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you and cannot understand the hugely positive reaction to this book. At the same time, I see people and posters I respect giving high praise, plus the fact that I respect Barry G, and I just have to assume it's over my head at the moment.

[fyodor]

One time I was selling a car. I put an ad in the paper. A lady called me and asked me what colour the car was.
“Uh.. I think it’s sliver.”
“What colour is the interior?”
“Lady I’m going to have to go out and look. I have no idea. I’ve been driving the car for 2 years and I never noticed what colour the interior is. The engine is in excellent shape. It drives great. It’s a good deal. You should buy this car no matter what colour it is.”

People have different ideas of what is important. To some of us the glossy paper and pretty pictures are all extraneous to the meat and potatoes of the book. Maybe there should be 2 versions – the present coffee table version and another player’s handbook style.

In any event I think some of the meat and potato guys are not looking past the presentation. Their perception may be that the purpose of the fluffy design is to mask fluffy content. It is not. It is meant to enhance. It is also there for casual readers who will take next to nothing away otherwise.

Most of this book is geared to brick and mortar play. This should be no surprise given the author’s expertise. If the brick and mortar stuff does not apply to you just ignore it.

Some of the content that people are taking for granted still needs to be said. Myself I have no need of bankroll management counseling. I have friends though, otherwise decent poker players, who continually mismanage their roll and are broke and on the sidelines.

I am not about to review each and every chapter but I will say that there is more to this book than meets the eye. It’s a very tricky book.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I have friends though, otherwise decent poker players, who continually mismanage their roll and are broke and on the sidelines.

[/ QUOTE ]


However I wonder whether the contents of this book would have any chance of helping anyone with such bankroll management problems.

Obviously Barry has seen all this stuff (and been there himself in some situations) and has (I hope) battled his way through these issues...so perhaps that kind of stuff WILL, in fact, help those struggling in this area.


Perhaps the fact that I already have reasonable (although not 'great') bankroll control is why I'm not as high on the book.


I was reading it again last night actually (giving it 'another chance' so to speak) and my thoughts on the book are mostly the same.

To imply that the content is somehow not getting to me because I'm distracted by all the pretty pictures is really silly.
I look at the pics. They're nice.
I read the words...and come to my own conclusions.
I'm a reasonably intelligent human-being who can form an opinion on something without thinking, "Look at all the pretty pictures. I bet this book isn't any good otherwise."



There are lots of people who are trying to find reasons WHY those who aren't getting as much out of it just AREN'T.

Some of them are:
- Distracted by the glossy pages and pretty pics so not REALLY absorbing or appreciating the content
- Had unreasonable expectations because it's by Greenstein
- Somehow didn't like it because it's not a 2+2 book
- Had expected an entirely math-based book
- Just doesn't 'get it' because of playing more online than at B&M


Why can't people just acknowledge that an intelligent criticism of the book can just be due to one's opinions on the contents.

If the book had been by an unknown author, or by a 2+2 author, or didn't have the glossy pages, or if I played more at B&M than I do I would STILL have the same thoughts about the content as I do now.

I had no expectationf for this book really.
I only thought 'Greenstein is writing a book. Looking forward to it.'
That's it.

My opinions on the content are based on the content itself.

In fact, I have a HIGHER opinion of it than I would have otherwise BECAUSE it's by Greenstein and because of his professionalism and his participation in this thread.

Because of that I am still open to the possibility that it's my fault for "not getting it" or "missing out".
Otherwise, I'm not sure I would be.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
One time I was selling a car. I put an ad in the paper. A lady called me and asked me what colour the car was.
“Uh.. I think it’s sliver.”
“What colour is the interior?”
“Lady I’m going to have to go out and look. I have no idea. I’ve been driving the car for 2 years and I never noticed what colour the interior is. The engine is in excellent shape. It drives great. It’s a good deal. You should buy this car no matter what colour it is.”

People have different ideas of what is important. To some of us the glossy paper and pretty pictures are all extraneous to the meat and potatoes of the book. Maybe there should be 2 versions – the present coffee table version and another player’s handbook style.

In any event I think some of the meat and potato guys are not looking past the presentation. Their perception may be that the purpose of the fluffy design is to mask fluffy content. It is not. It is meant to enhance. It is also there for casual readers who will take next to nothing away otherwise.


[/ QUOTE ]
I love the pictures and glossy pages and the entire presentation of the book. I still feel as though I'm missing something.

[ QUOTE ]
I am not about to review each and every chapter but I will say that there is more to this book than meets the eye. It’s a very tricky book.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't review the chapter just give me an example chapter adn I'll reread it. Just give me an example of what people are getting out of this book that I am not.

Make sure you don't point me to one of the strategy chapters as those are pure gold.

I mean, I read his poker and sexuality chapter and found it interesting, but it's not going to help me make money and people are saying that these "fluff" chapters will help them make money so I want to know why. I'm not asking for a dissertation.

ps. Although I ask this I am also going to say that I really enjoyed reading every chapter in the book.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
I play professionally and AT THIS POINT in my poker career I think this book will make me (and save me) more money than any book in circulation. The book is excellent for anyone who has serious interest in making money playing poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

I find this statement mind blowing because I can not agree with it at all. Just give me one chapter (not the strategy ones) to look at that made you write the above quote.

Or, maybe just explain your reasoning behind the statement.

[fyodor]

I opened the book at random and this is what came up:

p.85

[ QUOTE ]
"Dishonesty gets in the way of a winning player. If losers are in a game with suspicious activity, they will have reason to stop playing. Conversely, players will like to play with you as long as they know you play honestly..."

[/ QUOTE ]

1. You already know this, are already honest, and believe this advice is too obvious.

2. You angle shoot at every opportunity and think BG is a fish for being honest.

3. You don't cheat and don't know how to, but are wondering if there are edges in that department that you should be exploring. You read Ace on the River and decide that the bigger edge is being honest.

4. insert snappy retort here /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
1. You already know this, are already honest, and believe this advice is too obvious.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please try again.

I'm not being facetious at all, nor am I being sarcastic. I'd like you to try again so I can see what I'm missing (or maybe I'm not missing it and it's just obvious to me because I think that way already? I actually find that hard to believe becauase I'm not a 4k/8k player.)

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
I opened the book at random and this is what came up:

p.85

[ QUOTE ]
"Dishonesty gets in the way of a winning player. If losers are in a game with suspicious activity, they will have reason to stop playing. Conversely, players will like to play with you as long as they know you play honestly..."

[/ QUOTE ]

When you read this passage do you look at it and think to yourself, "Wow, what amazing insight that will be invaluable to me." Or do you think, "That seems rather trivial and obvious."

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
I opened the book at random and this is what came up:

p.85

[ QUOTE ]
"Dishonesty gets in the way of a winning player. If losers are in a game with suspicious activity, they will have reason to stop playing. Conversely, players will like to play with you as long as they know you play honestly..."

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

When you read this passage do you look at it and think to yourself, "Wow, what amazing insight that will be invaluable to me." Or do you think, "That seems rather trivial and obvious."

[RussianBear]

I think everybody was expecting a strategy guide, which his book is not. I would love it if Barry did write such a book. Or, perhaps, if he wrote an entire book like the last part where he discusses hands and the thought process involved. I am not yet a professional, I may never be, but his advice to those making that jump is valuable. I also think many are mad because he rips on internet players. There is a lot to be said about that. Mostly he's right. In my opinion, if one lives near a card room, they will make more than internet players because when you net a fish at a card room, he won't just up and leave if you behave properly (Barry's book) whereas, online, he may change tables and you need to track him down and may not be able to get on the table he's at.
Thank you Barry for having the guts to write a book about topics nobody else dares address. If you do get the time, however, everyone here appreciates your talents and would like to know more about your thought process.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

I think everybody was expecting a strategy guide

[/ QUOTE ]


As I already stated....I was most certainly NOT expecting a strategy-guide. No expectations whatsoever. I was just interested in what Barry had to say about the game.


[ QUOTE ]
everyone here appreciates your talents and would like to know more about your thought process.

[/ QUOTE ]


100% agree.
If he writes another book I will most certainly get it (regardless of whether it's more of the stuff I'm slightly critical of...or if it's hand-examples/strategy insight)

[fyodor]

Ok I went back and rather than picking a random passage I found one that applied to me.

pg.43 [ QUOTE ]
"If you have to tell a joke, don't tell it until you are losing and the live ones are winning."

[/ QUOTE ]

This simple piece of advice is easily missed. I know enough not to give fish a hard time but if I was sitting at a table (and I'll be in Vegas this Sunday - Thursday doing just that) I would be more likely to tell jokes or funny stories while I was winning. I would think I was just making the table happier. What I would be overlooking is that the losers might not be happy and instead would be pissed that I was in such a great mood from winning.

I will now try to project more happiness while losing and less while winning in order to keep the fish happy.

[MicroBob]

Actually...this is part of the book I was re-reading through yesterday and I like it a lot also.

i very much liked his tale of one game he played where you weren't allowed to talk unless you were losing.

and I thought his observations about generally shutting-up when you are clobbering your opponents were pretty good.

I tend to be a blabber-mouth sometimes when I'm ultra-caffeinated (as one might guess from my wordy posts). Other times I'm just kind of passive and quiet.
This is definitely some advice that I am going to be VERY much taking to heart.


Fairly good example of where Barry is adding some pretty good insight.

[RussianBear]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I think everybody was expecting a strategy guide


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




As I already stated....I was most certainly NOT expecting a strategy-guide. No expectations whatsoever. I was just interested in what Barry had to say about the game.


[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't mean you personally, I meant a lot of the nay-sayers in general.

[___1___]

[ QUOTE ]
I find this statement mind blowing because I can not agree with it at all. Just give me one chapter (not the strategy ones) to look at that made you write the above quote.

Or, maybe just explain your reasoning behind the statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that much of what's in Greenstein's book is innovative, it's simply ideas that people are not always conscious of and that haven't been printed.

Off the top of my head, Chapter 5 (Attitude of a Poker Player) and Chapter 11 (Making Money) come to mind with respect to my comment. When I made the aforementioned comment I was being 100% honest.

Some will get a lot out of Barry's book and some won't. Reading that book the 3 times I've read it so far have been invaluable as far as looking at my own shortcomings as a poker player, money management, family, etc.

I do suspect that MOST who don't get much out of Barry's book are 1) not overly serious about making money playing poker 2) too egotistical in their own abilities and lack of shortcoming with respect to poker.

___1___

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
I do suspect that MOST who don't get much out of Barry's book are 1) not overly serious about making money playing poker 2) too egotistical in their own abilities and lack of shortcoming with respect to poker.
___1___

[/ QUOTE ]

Here we go again . . . if you don't appreciate the extraordinarily basic lessons of which the first four-fifths of the book consist of, you suck.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
it's simply ideas that people are not always conscious of

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
1) not overly serious about making money playing poker 2) too egotistical in their own abilities and lack of shortcoming with respect to poker.

[/ QUOTE ]


or 3) they are the type of person to HAVE been concious of most of these ideas already.

[___1___]

[ QUOTE ]
or 3) they are the type of person to HAVE been concious of most of these ideas already.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I'll bet most who think they are 3) are actually in the 2) group, though.

___1___

[MicroBob]

I think most players EVERYWHERE are in the 2 group.
So much chat the B&M poker-table is from people who want to yap and show-off about how much they know about poker.

The conversation that took place at one of my 10/20 tables a couple months ago regarding the SUPER strength of T5 (suited or off-suit) because it makes ALL the straights comes to mind.


However, I also think I'm an exception to this general rule #2 because I believe I am mostly aware of my poker shortcomings.
I really don't think I'm a very good player at all and, for the most part, have a constant awareness of this fact

(albeit slightly decreased today since I want on a killer-rush yesterday....nothing like hitting all your sets to make you feel like you are a genius poker-player).


I will re-read through the chapters that you liked and see if I find more insight than I did the first time around.

[boondoggle]

Barry,

You are a class act! You kept your word and refunded my money plus all of the shipping.

I listened to you commentate live@thebike this past week and must say, that it was very insightful. The way you articulate your analysis of the situation was wonderful. Keep up the good work and I hope you are on again at live@thebike.

cheers
Boon

[barryg1]

[ QUOTE ]
Barry,

You are a class act! You kept your word and refunded my money plus all of the shipping.

I listened to you commentate live@thebike this past week and must say, that it was very insightful. The way you articulate your analysis of the situation was wonderful. Keep up the good work and I hope you are on again at live@thebike.

cheers
Boon

[/ QUOTE ]

Boon,

What the heck's going on? When you say complimentary things about me, it implies that the negative comments in your review were not personal or self-aggrandizing, but somewhat objective instead. Or maybe you bought some good stuff with the refund!

Anyway, I plan on doing one more Live at the Bike, but this time for limit hold'em. I try to let people know what I think about when I play poker. I thought I made a good effort in my book, although you didn't think I did.

Barry

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
What the heck's going on? When you say complimentary things about me, it implies that the negative comments in your review were not personal or self-aggrandizing, but somewhat objective instead. Or maybe you bought some good stuff with the refund!

. . .

I try to let people know what I think about when I play poker. I thought I made a good effort in my book, although you didn't think I did.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to reopen old wounds, but you should know better, Barry! Those that criticized the book never claimed (to my knowledge) that anything you said was incorrect, and certainly not that it was sloppily done. Just that much of the material in the earlier chapters was pretty obvious to many of us already.

That doesn't mean it's personal -- though on that note some of us critics have been a bit injured at the suggestions that our comments show that we are just "math-obsessed" or that we're not taking the game seriously.

In any case, I still consider myself a fan . . . and, for instance, hope you kick Danny N.'s butt in those freezeouts. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[MicroBob]

Yeah.
Me too btw. Completely agree with grisgra.


Haven't seen a single liveatthebike yet (don't have broadband at home) but will DEFINITELY watch the archives of this one FIRST when I get around to checking it out because I definitely am interested in hearing Barry's commentary.

[mattw]

"The conversation that took place at one of my 10/20 tables a couple months ago regarding the SUPER strength of T5 (suited or off-suit) because it makes ALL the straights comes to mind."

lol. i need to move up.

[helpmeout]

The book isnt too bad.

The problem is there are a few good one liners followed by a lot of fluff.

A lot of it is just plain common sense and or has been written in other texts.

The psychology stuff is for people who really have no control over their emotions its nothing new.

It also seems that Barry sold out by putting in only No limit tournament hands that he played.

A lot of people were hoping there would be a few high limit holdem hands with analysis. No limit tournys is a tv game designed for large egos, most serious poker players arent too interested in this area.

This book is a lil bit of something for everyone but not enough on its own to really be good for any group (maybe except No limit tourny players).

Mason was smoking crack when he gave this book 10, I also disagree that because there is nothing bad in it it is still a fine book.

Ehh its semidecent I'd give it a 7.

If it wasnt written by Barry G it would have got a lower rating alround.

[RussianBear]

BARRY G IS A CLASS ACT. I have written the man several times. First of all, he is more than prompt in answering my letters, and you know damn well he is a busy guy. Secondly, he gives great advice. When I give him a specific question, he answers it, and I'll be damned if when I put into practice what he suggest, if I don't get better results. Case in point, we were discussing some general strategy things and he told me that I was probably stealing the blinds too much and am not getting enough respect doing it, so, I should do it a bit less. I have made that change, and, the man was right.
Barry's book is geared toward a particular audience and the book is ideal for those people. The man never said this is going to be a book on hand selection and those types of things. Why reinvent the wheel? If I'm not mistaken as to what he intended when he wrote the book, then he did a great job. I would once again like to bury my nose deeper and thank Mr. Greenstein for all of his contributions, not only to advising me, but to poker in general and to humanity. You don't see Barry knocking over chairs, ripping the covers off at WSOP events, and dancing around like a fool. The man is pure class. Even though he's wealthy, I'd like to buy him a drink.
Do you think Barry even reads my posts and appreciates my blatant brown-nosing?
And, by the way, Mason is too.

[burningyen]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to reopen old wounds, but you should know better, Barry!

[/ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one who read Barry's post as friendly sarcasm?

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not to reopen old wounds, but you should know better, Barry!

[/ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one who read Barry's post as friendly sarcasm?

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, I wasn't sure. Maybe Barry wasn't either /images/graemlins/smile.gif. But this line didn't seem sarcastic:

[ QUOTE ]
I try to let people know what I think about when I play poker. I thought I made a good effort in my book, although you didn't think I did.

[/ QUOTE ]

[burningyen]

No, that part wasn't sarcastic. To me it just sounds like him being matter-of-fact, not sore.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
BARRY G IS A CLASS ACT.

[/ QUOTE ]


I clipped the rest of the quote as the above summed it up pretty well, and I have to say that in the world we live in where the 'net is used to bash this famous person or that famous person, it's rather refreshing to see people get compliments - especially a guy like Barry who we know does so much for so many.

And, to the point of the thread, I've said it before, but it's probably the best non-2+2 poker book on the market.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[Colonel Kataffy]

[ QUOTE ]
I suspect, though, that those in the anti-camp who go so far as to call the book "fluff" tend to be on the younger side. It probably takes a bit more bitter experience to hear what Greenstein is saying about life and responsibility, not just odds and outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect that you have missed the point. "Younger side." Instead of being condescending, why not go back and read grisga's post. And don't insult us because it took you until you were on the older side to become responsible. Don't project your immaturity on us. You see, many of the people in the "anti-camp" while young, all ready understand how to gamble responsibly. If we didn't, we'd have busted out long ago. Most of us in the "anti-camp" already knew not to lend money to dead beats or to play craps or whatever else.

We already know that getting laid will take the edge off.

So basically, when we hear a guy like barry is writing a book, we get our hopes up that he is going to put stuff in it that we don't already know and understand. We hope it answers all types of questions that we want to ask or don't know to ask. It really should't come as a suprise that we were dissappointed with the final product. I would have much prefered a long boring book with analysis of hundreds of hands (as opposed to the relatively few that were in the book) than the book of simple truths and glossy photos that we got.

[MicroBob]

I'm 34.
I pretty much understood most of the stuff too about not blowing your bankroll, etc.
I also know that I would have understood this at 22 as well actually.



At the risk of totally rocking the apple-cart...I'm going to offer another theory to all those who say that those who thought some fo the 'life-lesson' stuff wasn't that revolutionary for whatever reason (from being too young to understand, to having too high expectations for a Greenstein book, to being an onlie player, etc).


It is my theory that some of those who just LOVE this book are somewhat biased by the fact that it's such a sharp looking book (it's all about the presentation said Martha Stewart) and that it's by a guy like Greenstein whom many of us have so much respect for.

In other words, if the exact same book was written by Joe Shmoe or john Doe instead of Greenstein and if it came in a plain-jane text-only (no pictures) brown-wrapper cover then I wonder if it would be received with the same acclaim.

This is a bit tricky though....because we KNOW that Greenstein succeeds at the $4k/$8k game....and that lends credibility to ANYTHING he has to say that some anonymous writer would not have.

But my overall point is mostly the same...that it might be possible for some of the readers to be less objective/critical about the content because of the packaging and the author's reputation.


However....there are many posters in this thread who are pretty darned smart and who I respect a ton who LOVE this book (barron is one of them) so I'm still willing to acknowledge the possibility that I'm the one who's missing out.

Thankfully, I don't think my copy of the book ever expires.
So if/when there comes a time where I'm ready to better appreciate some of the ideas that I currently think are 'no big deal' my copy will always be there waiting for a re-read.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BARRY G IS A CLASS ACT.

[/ QUOTE ]


And, to the point of the thread, I've said it before, but it's probably the best non-2+2 poker book on the market.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[/ QUOTE ]

I may have to go with something like Improve Your Poker by Ciaffone as the best choice for a non 2+2 title. Other contenders would be the SuperSystems and the PL/NL Ciaffone/Reuben book.

Ace may sneak in around #5. Ace is a good book, I really like the Playing Hands chapter. However, I'm the camp that believes most of it is common sense for responsible gamblers. I didn't need anyone to tell me not to lend money to scumbags or lose my azz gambling on horses.

[Grumbo]

I think it's obvious that most of the people who take a negative view on the book had certain expectations going into it. The book wasn't meant for the mass audience, but more for the higher stakes B&M players.

Poker Player magazine had an interview with Barry in its December 13, 2004 issue on page 29 Link to article (http://www.pokerplayernewspaper.com/back-issues/pp121304PS.pdf) and he knew at the time that the book would not be for everyone and there was inevitably, much debate about this with the publisher.

[ QUOTE ]
"Initially it was kind of directed at, let's say, a four-and eight-hundred player or someone who had been a successful tournament player."

[/ QUOTE ]

The article also states:
[ QUOTE ]
...he concedes there have been some differences of opinion with the publisher (Avery Cordoza) who thinks the book is not accessible to a wide enough audience to guarantee publishing success.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
"When I say this is a high-level book, I don't mean that from a mathematical perspective, it is high level from a psychological perspective. The technical stuff is not going to stop anyone from reading it."


Greenstein says it has been argued that some of its psychological insights will not mean much to people who are not planning on being professional players .

[/ QUOTE ]

and regarding the compromise on the content with the publisher:

[ QUOTE ]
“I'm sure there are going to be some battles, but I don't want to ruin it. I don't want to dilute some of the material just so I can appease the publisher and make it more of a nursery rhyme."

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that since the book was from a very respected player many people bought the book immediately upon it's release. Having their own preconceptions about the book, many who did not fit the profile Barry was targeting were disappointed in the book (casual players, internet players etc.). That does not mean the book is not excellent for those for whom it is intended.

[MicroBob]

I think there are many players in this thread who love the book who do not play high-stakes or live.
Thus, saying that "you don't like it because you don't play high-stakes or enough live poker" strikes me as incorrect, and a bit insulting.


I (and others) have stated over and over that it's about the fact that much of the material is already accepted as common knowledge.

[Grumbo]

You obviously didn't read my post carefully. I did not say (as you put in quotes)

[ QUOTE ]
"you don't like it because you don't play high-stakes or enough live poker"

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's what I said:

[ QUOTE ]
Having their own preconceptions about the book, many who did not fit the profile Barry was targeting were disappointed in the book (casual players, internet players etc.).

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a difference between the two. My point is that it is more likely that someone who doesn't fit into the target audience for the book is less likely to enjoy it (or get value out of it) than someone in the intended target audience.

I'm sorry I insulted you. Apparently, it doesn't take much to do that.

[benkahuna]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry I insulted you. Apparently, it doesn't take much to do that.

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize that's also insulting, right?...

[RowdyZ]

If Barry's book is full of common sense then why did Stuey die broke in a cheap hotel room , why do we hear about so many high stakes poker players going broke playing craps or sports betting etc. The very things that make these guys successful in poker also can be a weakness if they don't control those impulses. It is easy for people on this board to say they would never fall into those traps but we haven't mastered the game, we can still get our fix playing poker, When you reach those levels poker is now a business and you don't get the same rush so they have to look to other things to feed that need and with the kind of money they are used to dealing with in poker only highest stakes will do and the higher the stakes the higher the risk. Also very good poker players have to have a pretty big ego and a ton of self confidence in themselves and this can be part of the trap, thinking that they are different, they are good enough, smart enough to beat the odds.
Think about it, isn't just poker players, utra successful people in other fields like rock star, movie star, pro athelete face the same challenges for some of the same reasons. How many people in those proffession who you know have made millions in thier career are bankrupt and broke, addicted to drugs or died broke. It is easy for people to say it is common sense but until they actually face that kind of pressure they don't really know if they are strong enough to use that so called common sense and stay out the pitfalls.

RZ
Sorry for the long rambling post but hopefully most will get my point and not attack me for spelling or grammar.

[pipes]

I understand the point you are trying to make, but are you actually saying that Stu Ungar would still be alive if he had read Ace on the River? He would have never bet on sports if Barry had told him that betting sports is bad if you are not a good handicapper?

[RowdyZ]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand the point you are trying to make, but are you actually saying that Stu Ungar would still be alive if he had read Ace on the River? He would have never bet on sports if Barry had told him that betting sports is bad if you are not a good handicapper?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I am saying that the dangers Barry warns againist are very real and even some of the best have fallen into the trap amd I am sure that everyone of them thought no way that could happen to me.Stuey Ungar is a perfect example. Everyone of the elite poker playes I can think of are action junkies and gamblers, look at all the crazy prop bets and stuff they make. It is a very fine line and Barry is trying to warn people about it but most poker players are to ego driven to think that it could possibbly happen to them. Ego and self confidence are two strengths every good poker player has but they can also be their biggest weakness carried to far.

RZ

[Born 2 Loose]

[ QUOTE ]
chapter 1-- "my poker career"

There is nothing of use in this chapter to an aspiring poker player. Nothing more than stories about Barry.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just bought the book last night after reading Chapter 1 (which I enjoyed) in Borders. Exactly what were you expecting in a chapter entitled "My Poker Career"???

As to your claim of there being nothing of use to an aspiring player, what about the fact that Barry refused to just move up in limits until he had an adequate roll and the ability to dominate at the previous level? Seems like a solid plan that's worth imitating to me.

[MicroBob]

I think chapter 1 was one of the most fascinating and captivating chapters in the book.


I also think Stuey Ungar is an example of how much all this stuff really IS common sense.
If Stuey himself could probably see that "yeah...I probably shouldn't throw all my money away on blow."


I agree with the point that poker-ego combined with major-athlete type income and/or success alone with 'living in vegas right on top of all these temptations' can be an obvious recipe for trouble for many people.

Perhaps I underestimate the temptation for a successful high-limit player to show-off to friends and/or blow it all on whatever you feel like when it almost appears that the money coming in from the donators will be never-ending and will never stop.


But I still think that this stuff is basic common-sense.
Just because lots of people have fallen into the trap before doesn't make it any less obvious.


Here's a semi-related example:

If you listen or watch one of those personal-finance type shows (like Suze Orman or something) you will inevitably hear 1 or 2 callers who say "I just don't know what to do. I dug myself out of $10k worth of credit-card debt and got my life re-established...but now I am in trouble again. I have 13 cards maxed-out and this time owe $32k. How can I stop this from happening?"

Anyone with half a brain can see that the answer is, "Ummm...stop buying so much stuff."


The point is that just because LOTS of people have done this deal before where they 'max-out 13 credit-cards and run up $30k in debt' doesn't mean it's all that complicated to avoid.

All it means is that some people are really freaking stupid with their money no matter how much they have.
And Barry saying that this happens to high-limit poker-players too still doesn't make it any less obvious to me.


Low-limit gamblers everywhere blow WAY too much on blackjack and slots, etc.
Regular-income joe's run-up thousands and thousands in credit-card debt.
High-limit poker-player spends way too much of his income on strippers and betting the ponies.

It all looks the same to me...and all of it strikes me as stuff that just falls under the general heading 'financial responsibility'.


However...I do admit that the recent post here using Stu Ungar as an example is making me think a bit more about the possibilities here.
I'm just presenting my gut-reaction argument to this...but also realize it might not be quite as simple as I'm making it out to be.

[Colonel Kataffy]

[ QUOTE ]
But I still think that this stuff is basic common-sense.
Just because lots of people have fallen into the trap before doesn't make it any less obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. The fact is, the behavior's that led to Unger's downfall were completely obvious. Thats what makes it so tragic.

The thing is, there are no shortage of people that are able to write a book about the importance of not doing drugs. There aren't, however, very many people that have the knowledge and intelligence to write a strategy book concerning poker's most compex topics. I'd prefer guys like Barry write the top notch poker strategy books and allow less capable people explain the obvious ones. Its sort of like hiring picasso to put another coat of paint on your house. That being said, Barry can write what ever the hell he wants, or paint what ever the hell he wants, but it is perfectly reasonable for people to be disappointed that Ace on the River wasn't the book that many of us had hoped.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]

The thing is, there are no shortage of people that are able to write a book about the importance of not doing drugs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely, but would you bother reading them? And would you even take in the advice? Coming from Barry it has a different weight to it. All obvious advice is obvious once it's written down. Before though, it probably rarely intruded on peoples consciousness because it was so obvious. Which means that it was rarely if ever thought about. Which means that maybe it wasn't so obvious.

A lot of discussion on this thread has centered around the fact that the book is geared more towards B&M players as opposed to internet ones. What about internet players that switch to the big live stakes though? In that situation you're going to have so much to think about that some of this 'obvious' advice, when reread occasionally, could turn out to be a life saver for some.

If someone wrote a book 20 years ago about how to be a successful president and included chapters about, "Don't get blow-jobs from interens" and, "If a hurricane wipes out a city try to do something quickly", I bet everyone would have remarked on how obvious this advice was.

When you're under intense pressure the obvious things can quickly fall by the wayside. Afterwards, well, they're obvious. In the heat of the moment, when you're caught up in a 200BB downswing at 1000/2000, maybe you're worrying about other things and you forget that trying to quickly recoup your losses on craps is a bad idea.

There are a tonne of great strategy guides out there. Barry G has written a unique book. I like to think of it as the 21st century version of 'Education of a Poker Player'. It's the book you pick up when you've stumbled on the path or forgotten your way that will enable you to put things back into perspective. Without losing your shirt in the process.

This is one book that I'm not lending out, because I always want to have it around.

[pipes]

[/ QUOTE ]
Coming from Barry it has a different weight to it. All obvious advice is obvious once it's written down. Before though, it probably rarely intruded on peoples consciousness because it was so obvious. Which means that it was rarely if ever thought about. Which means that maybe it wasn't so obvious.



[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell does this mean? This is deep..very deep. lol

Not lending money to scumbags and not throwing my money away on gambling was obvious to me before I read it in Barry's book. I did not need one of the greatest poker players in the world to give me insights such as these.

I agree with that Ace on the River/ Picasso painting a picket fence analogy. I suggested earlier that Ace on the River was like AROD hitting .280 with 20 homeruns. Good for many, but Barry can do better.

[theduke]

barry has a very honerable and respected name in the poker community. i wish that he would open an internet poker site (barry's room) where the rake would go towards his charities. it would be nice if party poker's billions would do something beneficial for the world.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
barry has a very honerable and respected name in the poker community. i wish that he would open an internet poker site (barry's room) where the rake would go towards his charities. it would be nice if party poker's billions would do something beneficial for the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting idea, but maybe hard to beat that Party marketing machine.

I think a WPT Barry G. Invitational where the vig went to charity would work well.

[captainwacky]

I read Barry's book, and to be completely honest, the insight was not as much of a "do this in this situation" as a guide to how to carry yourself. I believe that the attitudes and actions of many top players is something that inhibits them from becoming elite and or wealthy. While it wasn't necissary that you heard it from the mouth (pen?) of Barry, it was necessary that you heard it. There is more to poker than the cards, and this book covered those bases. I enjoyed it a lot.

[Matt Ruff]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's obvious that most of the people who take a negative view on the book had certain expectations going into it. The book wasn't meant for the mass audience, but more for the higher stakes B&M players.

[/ QUOTE ]

...and I continue to wonder, if that is really AotR's target audience, why it is so inexpensive and so pretty.

Do high-stakes B&M players have some sort of fetish for slick, mass-market-priced coffee-table books?

-- M. Ruff

[Grumbo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think it's obvious that most of the people who take a negative view on the book had certain expectations going into it. The book wasn't meant for the mass audience, but more for the higher stakes B&M players.

[/ QUOTE ]

...and I continue to wonder, if that is really AotR's target audience, why it is so inexpensive and so pretty.

Do high-stakes B&M players have some sort of fetish for slick, mass-market-priced coffee-table books?

-- M. Ruff

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the publisher making the book as marketable as possible. Barry didn't take the pictures or create the cover. Refer back to my comments on Barry going back and forth with the publisher regarding content. Barry's intentions and the publisher's outlook for the book most likely collided here. The publisher is obviously going to do all it can to sell the most amount of books possible. Thus, the book had a nice eye-candy look to it, while the text was geared towards the more experienced B&M players (not exclusively I know).

I assume the price is so low since there is less actual text in the book than a normal poker book. I was able to read a good portion of the book just standing in the bookstore.

[lozen]

Peice of garbage 1/2 through it and nothing but crap crap crap

[KINGOFINLAND]

This is by far the best book out on markets. 10/10, I understand those who don't find this book helpfull, but truth is the basic play is pretty easy learn. This is really for improving the decent players winrate who are yet not world class players.

[tyboy74]

I just finshed reading Ace on the River and I found the book to be above average. I can understand why so many people might be unsatisfy with the book. This is because they thought this book will be a instructional book on what hands to plays and how to play them. But the people who think this book is poor is failing to realize that knowing how to play poker alone is not enough to max your profit. Greenstein's book also teach players how to pick the right game, to check your ego, pick the right opponents, be mentally sharp when playing, staying off tilt. I believe knowing how to play perfect poker is only 50% to winning money. The other 50% comes from topics which Barry discuss in his book. In addition, there are about 80 pages of hand analysis in the book which is quite useful. Though Barry's book might not be what readers envision it to be nevertheless the topics that are focused in the book will prove to be useful to any poker players looking to become a better one.

[Vincent Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
I hardly know Greenstein and have only talked to him briefly a couple of times. I'm curious as to what he gave me.


[/ QUOTE ]

Did you ever elbow him when you got up from the table?

Vince

[Vincent Lepore]

David,

Do you and Barry think the book might help Daniel N. improve his game?

Vince

[Vincent Lepore]

Hey Barry write another one!

P.S. You get my vote as the number one Tournament player to model ones self after. Not because of your record or your playing style. No, you get my vote because you have style! Me and the kids you help out think you are great!

Vince

[HtotheNootch]

Bought it today. I'm not a high stakes player by any means although I'd like to move up eventually. I thought there were some useful concepts in there.

I also will admit that presentation did have an impact. Simply put, this book is extremely slick looking. It's a far cry from the usual presentation. In fact, that's my only criticism of the 2+2 library.

[betgo]

I am not ordering this. I am waiting to bust Barry out of a tournament so that I can get one for free.

[OpenWheel]

[ QUOTE ]
If someone wrote a book 20 years ago about how to be a successful president and included chapters about, "Don't get blow-jobs from interens" and, "If a hurricane wipes out a city try to do something quickly", I bet everyone would have remarked on how obvious this advice was.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like reading these boards not just for the poker content but there's always something unexpected that gives me a good chuckle.

From what I'm hearing about Barry's book, it reminds me of a book I bought years ago about race driving. It was "The Art of High Performance Driving" by Jackie Stewart. Stewart was one of my racing heroes even though he retired before I was old enough to see him race. I bought the book with great optimism towards all the great insights I would learn about car control and racecraft. It too was a pretty coffee table book.

I was initially very disappointed. The main thrust of the book was about his life, and the rest was about how to take a responsible approach to life. There was only one chapter fully about how to drive a car fast. His point was that a race driver needed to be responsible in life in order to be most successful as a race driver since the stakes toward your own and others health was so great.

Over a few years the book became one that I read over and over and became very prized to me as I realized how valuable the content truly was. I went to a race driving school and it was raining hard on the first day on the track. I remembered Stewart's advice on being aware enough to wear rubbers over my driving shoes. He pointed out that something so simple could prevent oil on the bottom of your shoes from causing your foot to slip off the pedals. He had said that he had seen that happen with poor consequences. One of the instructers saw me taking them off as I stepped into the car and was very impressed. A few others heard the exchange and I noticed many other students wearing them around the pits the next three days of the class.

That was something "obvious" about being meticulous in your craft that the instructers hadn't even mentioned. Yet it's obvious and useful to experienced race drivers.

I think Stewart's book is a true gem to young race drivers who are already quite good at car control but can be helped by an overall perspective. I suspect Barry's book is in a similar vein for poker players. I haven't bought it but this thread has lead me to put it on my 'must buy' list.

And, yes, there was valuable race driving information in Stewart's book too. Yet initially I had been upset that it wasn't only, or even mainly, about that aspect. I learned differently as I gained experience.

[Death Valley]

OK...I'll chime in.

1)There are many people complaining of the lack of "content" in the book. This is probably just because they were expecting a different type of content when they ordered it. Do not buy a book on baking and be surprised that they dont tell you how to make Peking Duck.
...There is plenty of very good content in the book, perhaps though it wasnt what you expected.

2)It seems many people like more of a textbook approach when they read poker books....well then read it like a textbook! Some of the information is so simple and consice that you breeze right buy it, analyze things and you will certainly get your money's worth.

3)From what I see when I play live, and to a smaller extent online.... I am very good at not tilting, much more so than my opponents. If you can learn how to not tilt, or tilt less this book will pay for itself 100 fold if not more over the next year alone.
The "butterfly effect" must seem to some that it has no place in a poker book, but it has everything to do with advanced poker..... DON'T fret the small things you cant control...(ie. bad beats)

4)As I've said before, ANY book that gives you even one good idea is easily worth $20-$30. This book offers many great thoughts that will help a good player a lot.

.....When you read the book keep an open mind, look at the big picture, not how you are going to grind out the next session..... dont read it too fast, see what deeper concepts are presented albeit in a clear and concise format. If you think the book is a waste, stick it on a shelf and read it again in a year or two assuming you are still playing

[RussianBear]

I couldn't agree more.

[CarlSpackler]

The most ironic thing in this thread is that many of the critics of Barry's book are exhibiting poor emotional control during this discussion. I will be picking up AOTR very soon, and I'm willing to bet that Phil Ivey is right when he said the book is going to be over many players' heads.

As for the one poster who said this book is for people who have "poor emotional control," over 95% of people on this board don't have good emotional control. Odds are, unless you're a practicing Buddhist, you don't have good emotional self control. The human mind is an extremely tough beast to tame.

A great analogy for high stakes poker players is the NBA. In the NBA, the talent level and ability of most of the players is pretty equal. It's the psychological makeup of these athletes which separates the great players from the good players, and the good players from the average players.

[boondoggle]

[ QUOTE ]
I will be picking up AOTR very soon, and I'm willing to bet that Phil Ivey is right when he said the book is going to be over many players' heads.

[/ QUOTE ] Considering that the average IQ is 100...this does not make it a great/good book.

[ QUOTE ]
As for the one poster who said this book is for people who have "poor emotional control," over 95% of people on this board don't have good emotional control.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most people do not have good emotional control or why would pharmaceuticals/illegal drugs be so prevalent in our society? Again, this does not make it a great/good book.


[ QUOTE ]
It's the psychological makeup of these athletes which separates the great players from the good players, and the good players from the average players.

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically you are stating that once you master your mind, poker is easy. That is nice but it still does not make AOTR a great/good book. Furthermore, your post is speculation upon second hand speculation and that is not very prudent for making a judgement. Read the book, and see if it helps your game out. If it does then perhaps you were one of the emotionally challenged people that an earlier poster was talking about. However, if you are not an emotional challenged person then I do not think this book will help you out very much.

cheers
Boon

[Aceshigh7]

Saw a half-page ad for Ace On The River in yesterday's USA Today. Very nicely done. Must have cost quite alot to run that ad. Never seen an ad for a poker book in a newspaper before.

[klonpucko]

"Do not buy a book on baking and be surprised that they dont tell you how to make Peking Duck."

wow what a stupid analogy. seems like everyones opinions in here is like "if you didn't like the book, either you don't get it or you have poor emotional selfcontrol", which is just a weird assumption to make. the book is EXTREMELY low on content, it is. i don't even get how anyone can argue that it isn't. "don't get upset about beats"? come on! everyone has heard this a billion times.

a more proper analogy than yours would be about buying a book on baking and finding advice on how to turn on the oven.

the book claims to be an ADVANCED poker guide. so obviously that's what you expect. not stuff like "don't let attractive women distract you" or "don't do drugs" or whatever.

i sincerely don't understand what people like about it.

[klonpucko]

wow, pretty petty post for someone called "class act" all the time.

[J.Brown]

I am not going to convince you of anything, but..........

have you played poker for a living?

have you played at a level of 50/100 and above?

have you dealt with at least 50% of the issues discussed in the book on a daily, weekly, or even monthy basis?

if not then you are right this book is of extremely "low" content, but if you have had to try to avoid the pitfalls that surround trying to derive income from playing poker, it is a great great book, sometimes not for turning over totally new ground, but for putting all of this great advice into one spot.

just my 2+2 cents. cheers, J.

[RussianBear]

Read it again in a year. I think you'll better understand what he's writing about.

[klonpucko]

no, i haven't played those stakes but if i do and go bust, the reason probably won't be that i got distracted by a big breasted woman. apart from being bad at poker, the reason people go bust at those levels are probably poor bankroll management and such, and i didn't really think the book gave any thorough advice on that anyway. if it's just a question about avoiding the pits, women and drugs, please congratulate me for my black belt.

[Foghatlive]

Theory of Poker = 10

Little Green Poker Book = 8

Ace on the River = 5

[Death Valley]

[ QUOTE ]
"Do not buy a book on baking and be surprised that they dont tell you how to make Peking Duck."

wow what a stupid analogy. seems like everyones opinions in here is like "if you didn't like the book, either you don't get it or you have poor emotional selfcontrol", which is just a weird assumption to make. the book is EXTREMELY low on content, it is. i don't even get how anyone can argue that it isn't. "don't get upset about beats"? come on! everyone has heard this a billion times.

a more proper analogy than yours would be about buying a book on baking and finding advice on how to turn on the oven.


[/ QUOTE ]

While it seems you think the analogy was stupid, it is clear to me that you just didnt understand it. The whole point of my analogy was that while it does have advanced concepts for an advanced poker book, it may not have the TYPE of advanced concepts you were hoping to find.
Again, if you make it 2 years without going broke, try reading it again

[J.Brown]

congratulations, but.................

these opportunities don't present themselves nearly as readily until you are in the spots that BG states, bigger games, bigger money, bigger lifestyle, etc, etc, etc.

the book has a ton of merit for everyone, just not everyone at different stages of their particular poker evolution.

even if it doesn't fit the bill as a "poker" guide for you it has great pictures, stories, and gives imho a good guide for some important life choices that surround all of us all the time.

anyway, congrats again on your black belt.

cheers. J.

[dshadow35]

There are so many posts on this book thats its impossible to read them all. This book was not intended for basic strategy since you can get that from any of the other 1000 books and dvds out there, but rather a look at the mind of a professional gambler. Barry G is one of the best all around poker players today and its nice to see his climb up to the top described in his book. This book has definetly made an impact on the way I think when I'm at a poker table but I have not yet mastered my emotional control as of yet. Its definetly going to be a long road ahead but as long as you keep moving forward there will come a time when your heart doesn't beat anymore when you win or lose. Its definetly a good read for anyone serious about becoming the best player they can be. I give it an 8 out of 10.

[jgunnip]

I just picked up this book for myself and read through it pretty easily in one sitting. While I thought many of the chapters could have been expanded, it was a nice divergence from what I am normally reading, that is 2+2 theory/strategy books. I really enjoyed reading the book, not only because the author is a highly respected person, but also because it discusses some topics that you don't see written about in other poker literature. There is more to poker and the poker life than sitting down at a table and playing the cards, and I think Barry did a nice job of writing a book about the poker culture. I defintely learned some tibits about B&M play that I did not know before and in the future if I venture into higher limit games I'll probably come into the games with a better senese of what's going on than had I not read this book. It was a fun read and the pretty pictures were also nice to look at /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[boondoggle]

Barry,

I get it now. Thanks.

cheers
Boon

[CrayZee]

I'm neither a live nor seasoned player...But I don't care that people have said the book "wasn't great" or "nothing new" when it came out (from what I remember).

I liked it and appreciated the time he spent to write it.

[sisyphus]

Greenstein's book focuses on fairly abstract principles that are fundamental to the success of a professional poker player. People who have followed the forum's on Twoplustwo already have a strong grasp on strategy and tactics with regards to specific plays. What Barry does is to re-emphasise the importance on ones approach to the game. The single biggest leak of every single person who reads this forum, is playing when they are tired or emotionally unbalanced, and it is because it is very hard to objectively analyse how we feel, and have the discipline to act on our analysis that we have this leak.

The internet generation are used to concrete facts. how +ev is this and that. The more abstract something becomes the harder it is to grasp. The imortance of position, has for me, been very hard to understand, because although it is something i have read about and been told, i have not understood it, until i have played enough to have the expereince to see, that it is so very important.

Greenstein knows that we all know how we are suppossed to approach the game, yet he knows, as we do, that we choose not to apply these basic rules. That is why people feel robbed, as they already know what G. is saying.

But that's the beauty of it. Greenstein can tell everyone till he is blue in the face that unless you approach the game in the correct manner, it doeas not matter how good you are at calculating the odds.....if you keep taking shots, keep playing when you are tired, keep using poor table selection, keep nodding and saying yes i know that and just ignoring it, then you will not have the fortitude and strength of character to ride out that dark patch when the cards start running against you, and that is why Mr Greenstein can afford to give away his winnings to charity and why we are reading and criticising his book, instead of writing it.

[Chris.]

I just picked it up recently and really enjoyed it. I think the book would have benefitted from completely abandoning strategy and focusing more on gambling lifestyle, widsom, anecdotes, etc..

There is plenty of great strategy out there, but the first-hand stuff I got from Barry's book seems to be a bit more scarce.

Good stuff.

[jh21hook]

Barry is a great poker player, but I was very disappointed by AOTR. There was just nothing of substance in the whole thing. Campared to something like Harrington on Hold em, it was a pamphlet, or maybe junk mail.

[theDetroitKid]

I thought Barry's book was great. Many poker player know how to play the game, but not all can always play their best. Barry's book is the first book I have read that discussed how to play your best all the time and discusses all the important factors the strategy books missed. I feel like you need a strong knowledge of the game and a bit of experience under your belt to fully appreciate it.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought Barry's book was great. Many poker player know how to play the game, but not all can always play their best. Barry's book is the first book I have read that discussed how to play your best all the time and discusses all the important factors the strategy books missed. I feel like you need a strong knowledge of the game and a bit of experience under your belt to fully appreciate it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here we go again, the negative review followed by the disparaging, "Well, you probably aren't good enough to appreciate the book" reply.

[CrayZee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought Barry's book was great. Many poker player know how to play the game, but not all can always play their best. Barry's book is the first book I have read that discussed how to play your best all the time and discusses all the important factors the strategy books missed. I feel like you need a strong knowledge of the game and a bit of experience under your belt to fully appreciate it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here we go again, the negative review followed by the disparaging, "Well, you probably aren't good enough to appreciate the book" reply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh...Some people liked it, some didn't, and some thought it was mediocre. It's mostly opinions based on what an individual gained from the book. That's fair.

Most of the complaints were about the somewhat lacking technical poker analysis/strategy (from people that already know about the other stuff).

I guess you can't make everyone happy. I don't think the author's primary goal was strategy content...it's just one aspect. If he wanted to write a pure strategy book, then he probably would. If hardcore poker players aren't interested in his perspective, story, etc., then so be it. He wanted to appeal to a more general audience anyway.

[pipes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought Barry's book was great. Many poker player know how to play the game, but not all can always play their best. Barry's book is the first book I have read that discussed how to play your best all the time and discusses all the important factors the strategy books missed. I feel like you need a strong knowledge of the game and a bit of experience under your belt to fully appreciate it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here we go again, the negative review followed by the disparaging, "Well, you probably aren't good enough to appreciate the book" reply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh...Some people liked it, some didn't, and some thought it was mediocre. It's mostly opinions based on what an individual gained from the book. That's fair.

Most of the complaints were about the somewhat lacking technical poker analysis/strategy (from people that already know about the other stuff).

I guess you can't make everyone happy. I don't think the author's primary goal was strategy content...it's just one aspect. If he wanted to write a pure strategy book, then he probably would. If hardcore poker players aren't interested in his perspective, story, etc., then so be it. He wanted to appeal to a more general audience anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was not anticipating a strategy book. I just felt the book was a little light on the 'meat'.

But I actually liked the book. I just don't think its a masterpiece that will take a really good/great player and turn him into a high stakes superstar. Nor do I think you have to be borderline world class to 'get' the book. I'm paraphrasing here, but one chapter basically said not to bet on sports if you suck at betting sports.

Again, I actually did like the book. But I get annoyed at some remarks from some people below attacking the people giving negative reviews.

[UATrewqaz]

I read most of the book in the book store a few weeks ago.

I did enjoy it, found it very entertaining. I liked the pictures and the quotes, etc.

That having been said I got almost no poker strategy out of it. The book would be very helpful to people who are irresponsible with money (which I guess higher stakes players can be quite often) but if you are a very disciplined player already who knows not to give your money to strippers and sports book then those sections of the book won't be that helpful.

Anyone who loves poker and the poker world will enjoy the book though. If you are looking for a "technical" guide of strategy and concepts then there are other books. If you are looking are prone to tilting or have poor non-poker related habits then this book will be very helpful.

[jh21hook]

Obviously Detriot is a world champion in the making who thinks on a level I dare not dream to aspire...lol

[bk1]

I am gonna ignore this and buy ace on the river...

[bk1]

is this real Barry Greenstein?

[MCS]

[ QUOTE ]
is this real Barry Greenstein?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[dcb777]

Personally I thought this book was a good read and provided an interesting prospecive on how to limit losses and maximize wins which often seperates extremely successful players from break even players. This is obviously not a how to play certain hands book, but for more advanced players there are definetely many helpful ideas that have helped me with my game. This book helped me most with topics such as how to avoid playing long sessions while stuck etc.

[CrayZee]

[ QUOTE ]

I was not anticipating a strategy book. I just felt the book was a little light on the 'meat'.

But I actually liked the book. I just don't think its a masterpiece that will take a really good/great player and turn him into a high stakes superstar. Nor do I think you have to be borderline world class to 'get' the book. I'm paraphrasing here, but one chapter basically said not to bet on sports if you suck at betting sports.

Again, I actually did like the book. But I get annoyed at some remarks from some people below attacking the people giving negative reviews.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just thought I'd say that I respect this opinion and agree with you generally. I know that the marketing aspect can try to overhype things, but I really did like this book. As Sklansky said (from memory again, so feel free to correct me), I thought it was a very cute baby. It should be pretty obvious that no amount of books would make you a world class player...and this is okay; you don't have to become a world class player to appreciate the complexity that is poker. It is a very cool game regardless of ability.

[webiggy]

[ QUOTE ]
Boon,

I would never want anyone to feel ripped off by me. I guess it is to be expected that there will be people who will not enjoy what I have written. Similarly, some people like me and some don't.

Send the book along with a note stating how much you spent including shipping (and shipping it back to us).

Here is the address:

Last Knight Publishing Company
P.O. Box 270006
Fort Collins, CO 80527

Be sure to include your address, and I will make sure you get your refund.

Thanks for taking the time to read the book, anyway. Sorry, you didn't get much out of it.

Barry

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Just plain classy. Barry, you are a credit to the human race!