Earth - The Planet of Suffering [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

Lestat

04-01-2006, 02:51 AM

Human suffering has been discussed a bit on here, but I'm not sure if the totality of all suffering which occurs in nature has been discussed. I'm not just talking about what happens to a moose that falls through some thin ice on a pond, or even a lion cub who breaks it's leg. These animals suffer for sure, but what I'm talking about is how suffering appears to be literally designed (intelligently?) into nature.

Many animals that inhabit the earth (not just humans), are ruthless killing machines. And insects... Anyone who has studied insects knows just how cruel their instincts and rituals can be.

The elements of the earth are also cruel and indiscriminant. Volcanoes erupt, tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes, not only devour life, but leave much suffering in their wake. Nature itself shows no mercy.

It sure seems to me that life as we know it is nothing more than some some mindless evolutionary product that has developed over time and is what it is today. It is a perfect system, albeit cruel and ruthless, where the weak perish without mercy and the strong and healthy survive.

If I did believe in God, this would be the hardest thing to reconcile. Ok, you might get it past your axioms of why God shows no mercy on many humans in this life. But what about all the other suffering and killing for survival on the planet? Why would a loving God design the earth this way? Where animals must kill other animals and eat their flesh. Where the average cute widdle baby lion cub doesn't make it past 1 year of age, because he starves to death or gets eaten alive by a hyena, etc. Now add the human element of suffering... Babies dying of SIDS, young people dying of cruel diseases, natural disaster wiping out populations, very bad things happening to good people and visa-versa.

Stop and think about it people! Life on this planet is insanely CRUEL!!! This is MY proof. I'm not saying it has to be yours, but it is my proof that there is no omnipotent loving god. All this is surely the product of a mindless, heartless, yet incredibly wondrous evolutionary system that developed on a rock that by the slimmest of chances formed an atmosphere, then water, and finally life. But it's never been easy. It has been and remains a ruthless struggle for survival.

hmkpoker

04-01-2006, 03:33 AM

It is my belief, though, that as civilization increases, suffering will continue to decrease. Yes, life is stressful and tough at times for the average joe, but his life is a HELL of a lot better off than that of his animal ancestors, who lived in a constant predatory anarchic nightmare. (Capitalism is competitive, but picture a world where, if you wanted to survive to the next day, you had to KILL YOUR NEIGHBOR so you could EAT HIM RAW, and every waking second worry about the same happening to you. THAT is the economy we have evolved from) As we civilize, our resources grow, our security is ensured, our fears are lessened, our happiness made greater, and our suffering diminished.

We are engaged in an never-ending struggle to live better lives.

Double Down

04-01-2006, 04:18 AM

OK, I've lurked for long enough.

The following are my beliefs about our universe (yes, this is an answer to this post of why our world appears to be so cruel in nature)

First of all, I think that our view of God is incredibly skewed. Every other thread on this forum is people trying to either prove or disprove God based on how Christianity defines God. We need to start thinking outside of that box.

A little background info on me: I was raised as a reform Jew, but at the same time thanks to my father and stepmom, was exposed to a great deal of new age philosophy and spirituality.

For what it's worth, I think that Christianity is pretty ridiculous. Along with others such as Mohammed and Buddha, Jesus was an ascended master. He was a spriritually evolved being who entered into our realm of existence to make us aware of things bigger than ourselves.
He wanted to inspire us to be like him, but like in most cases, humans messed up the whole thing and instead of focusing on what he taught during his life, they give too much emphasis to his death, thinking that this was his greatest gift.

Enough of what I do not believe. Here is what I think.
There is a consciousness that exists. Call it God, call it Spirit, or simply Consciousness. This consciousness is all encompassing. There is nothing in the universe that is NOT it. It is, by definition, all loving and all encompassing.
There is nothing separate from us called God.

This consciousness exists outside of space and time.

Here is where our universe comes from: For this consciousness to be able to appreciate itself, it has manifested the universe where it "tricks" itself into thinking that there is dualism; that there is something that exists outside of itself. This universe is illusory. It is filled with billions of living organisms that are not aware that there is no difference between themselves and each other.

We exist here to learn the lesson that there is no dualism. Love is what connects us back to that higher plane of consciousness. And I define love as being able to put another organism's importance and priority as high as or higher than your own. I believe in reincarnation. And we continue to live lifetime after lifetime taking away lessons from each life about love and fear.

Now, this at first may appear to be an impossible task. We exist in this universe trying to grasp concepts that if we truly were able to grasp them, we would not be here.
But it is possible. Through meditation, educating ourselves on the ways of the universe, and practicing unconditional love, acceptance, and forgiveness, and truly understanding that this universe is illusory and there is no true separation between any of us, we will each in our own time raise our levels of consciousness and ascend into higher depths of reality, until eventually we do become one with this all knowing, all powerful consciousness. Call this "Heaven" if you will, but remember, it is not a place, but a state of mind. With an strong enough belief system, you could go there instantly. after all, time and space do not truly exist.

This is a difficult thing to explain. After all, these are concepts that are impossible to explain using words, plus I'm not such a hot writer.
I believe that all religions originally manifested from some small understanding of the universe, but when it was defined in human terms so that people could "understand it" its meaning was lost.
For example, even though they won't admit it, Christianity tries to create a version of God that has many human qualities, such as having human emotions like wrath, or punishing those that disobey him. (Him, like the entity that created our universe has male genitalia.)

God is not a person, or a separate entity. We are all God, and there is nothing that isn't God.

So the answer to the question of why this world is cruel, is because this level of existence was created out of the idea of "what if" something wasn't God? And from that, Consciousness manifested several consciousnesses that do not realize that they are one and the same. In this world, organisms seek to preserve the best for themselves. From this, fear, hatred, worry, and suffering are created.

This is just the tip of the iceberg of my philosophies. Please reply with all questions, arguments, etc.

Lestat

04-01-2006, 04:21 AM

Great points and ones I should've made. But I think they also more or less speak to my conclusion of atheism. Our easier life and civility is a testament to our having evolved, not to any god.

And even though what you say is true, there is still no mercy in nature. No matter how easy we manage to make our lives, cataclysm always looms only a short distance away.

Lestat

04-01-2006, 04:38 AM

This is a difficult thing to explain. 

Of course it is.

I appreciate the time you took on your first post and don't want to discourage you from further postings, but...

You've got to be kidding. I mean it's great that you got this whole little scenario worked out nice and neatly, but where's the logic?

Reincarnation?!! No less ludricrous than some religious beliefs I suppose, because after all... It can't be disproved, which is something theists love to fall back on.

What do you think about evolution? Legitimate science, or just a fairy tale?

Double Down

04-01-2006, 04:42 AM

Yes, evolution is for real. I am a man of science.

Double Down

04-01-2006, 04:47 AM

Also, please try not to lump me in with other "theists" (ie Christians). The ideas that I am proposing have nothing to do with that. I am trying to make people understand that our current view of "God" is very very closedminded and therefore makes for a petty argument from either side.

On the whole, humans have a very small grasp on everything that there is to be known.

So if we are to discuss (and argue) this, try to do it with an open mind, including realizing that past arguments against "theists" don't really hold ground.

Darryl_P

04-01-2006, 05:07 AM

Nice post! http://webforum.mweb.co.za/images/graemlins/img56.gif

I wish more people were able to view God in this (IMO correct) way.

To the OP:

I think the answer lies in how you define suffering. If you truly achieve that higher level of being (oneness with God), then earthly suffering, even death, is not really suffering IMO. Your soul will be able to transcend any physical plane and the fate of the physical body you happen to be borrowing will be insignificant.

TomBrooks

04-01-2006, 05:45 AM

The people who are suffering do so because they have not realized the how to live. They have not realized who they are. The scriptures describe how to live but most people don't understand them. Read TAMING YOUR GREMLIN and THE POWER OF NOW to find out. Not understanding who you are and how to experience life causes one to live in what is called Hell in the Bible, although most Christians misinterpret the Bible to think that Hell is something that happens to some people after they die. Good luck.

TomBrooks

04-01-2006, 05:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
God is not a person, or a separate entity. We are all God, and there is nothing that isn't God.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is correct. That is why when you realize who you are, you will be very happy. When you don't realize who you are, you have seperated yourself from this wonderful experience. Separation from God = separation from yourself (in your mind -- you can't really seperate yourself from God but your mind can block the connection) = suffering = Hell.

hmkpoker

04-01-2006, 05:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Great points and ones I should've made. But I think they also more or less speak to my conclusion of atheism. Our easier life and civility is a testament to our having evolved, not to any god.

And even though what you say is true, there is still no mercy in nature. No matter how easy we manage to make our lives, cataclysm always looms only a short distance away.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is mercy in nature. Human beings are capable of love and mercy, which, because it exists, occurs in nature.

TomBrooks

04-01-2006, 05:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It is my belief, though, that as civilization increases, suffering will continue to decrease.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. It's reasonable to presume there will be a relatively huge raising of human consciousness in the relatively near future as more and more people come to understand the mythological nature of the Scriptures and modern science and technology assists in debunking whacky superstitions and aids in spreading the truth as esposed by those who really know it.

Double Down

04-01-2006, 06:00 AM

So you agree, but don't the scriptures depict a "God" who has many human qualities, and is separate from us?
We are supposed to worship God, etc?

hmkpoker

04-01-2006, 06:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
We are supposed to worship God, etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we should kill God, and then assume his power /images/graemlins/grin.gif

cambraceres

04-01-2006, 06:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We are supposed to worship God, etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we should kill God, and then assume his power /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Watch out for the boy in the baggy clothes

chezlaw

04-01-2006, 06:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The people who are suffering do so because they have not realized the how to live. They have not realized who they are. The scriptures describe how to live but most people don't understand them. Read TAMING YOUR GREMLIN and THE POWER OF NOW to find out. Not understanding who you are and how to experience life causes one to live in what is called Hell in the Bible, although most Christians misinterpret the Bible to think that Hell is something that happens to some people after they die. Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was going to link to information on those born into lives of suffering who die horribly whilst still children but then I remembered the date.

Nice one, had me going for a moment.

chez

tolbiny

04-01-2006, 06:41 AM

When you watch a lion killing an antelope you see its eyes glaze over. Thats endorphins being released into its bloodstream the prey feels very little pain compared towhat you might imagine. Isn't that mercy?
Without the lion the antelope would eat all of the grass and then they ALL would starve to death, the lion prevents this tragedy, and allows for furture generations of antelope. Is that not mercy in a way?
During war when a man gets his limb blown off he might get up and try to walk/pick it up. If he felt the full effects of the pain it would be excruciating, its only a short time later- when he would have bled to death without medical treatment that those endorphins wear off and he begins to feel the full effects.
Plants have no nervous system and feel no pain (in all likelyhood) and they grow and feed us all- is that not mercy?
Perhaps god could have created a perfect universe where we recieved our strength directly from the sun and nothing ever needed to eat or be eaten. But whre is the beauty and variety in that? What is pleasure without pain? What do you get when you indulge a child's every whim, overfeed him, keep him out of harms way? You get a lazy insolent self righteous child most of the time, pain is terrific for learning. Without pain there can be no mercy.

hmkpoker

04-01-2006, 06:49 AM

Well said, tolbiny

MidGe

04-01-2006, 08:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
When you watch a lion killing an antelope you see its eyes glaze over. Thats endorphins being released into its bloodstream the prey feels very little pain compared towhat you might imagine. Isn't that mercy?

[/ QUOTE ]

orly

miketurner

04-01-2006, 09:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why would a loving God design the earth this way?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you're being sarcastic, since you don’t believe in neither God nor design. But just hypothetically, for the sake of argument... let’s assume they both exist. Why would a loving God design the earth this way? Well, it’s a great way to keep the earth “young” and self sustaining. Plus, others have already pointed out how the “cruelness” is less cruel than you think. How would you have designed it and accomplished all the things the current design does?

Lestat

04-01-2006, 09:06 AM

Very good points tolbiny. Nature (or God), has designed processes to eliminate or reduce suffering in certain instances. Very good points.

Lestat

04-01-2006, 09:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Nice post! http://webforum.mweb.co.za/images/graemlins/img56.gif

I wish more people were able to view God in this (IMO correct) way.

To the OP:

I think the answer lies in how you define suffering. If you truly achieve that higher level of being (oneness with God), then earthly suffering, even death, is not really suffering IMO. Your soul will be able to transcend any physical plane and the fate of the physical body you happen to be borrowing will be insignificant.

[/ QUOTE ]

But I'm not just talking about humans Darryl. I'm discussing ALL suffering. How do you reconcile all the suffering of the animal kingdome? What purpose did God have in mind when he created that bee who paralyzes another creature to lay its eggs inside so the larvae would eat it alive?

Utah

04-01-2006, 10:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It sure seems to me that life as we know it is nothing more than some some mindless evolutionary product that has developed over time and is what it is today. It is a perfect system, albeit cruel and ruthless, where the weak perish without mercy and the strong and healthy survive.

[/ QUOTE ]That sums up life perfectly. Very well put. To think otherwise is illogical. There is really nothing we do that cant be traced to an evolutionary trait of survival - watching football, eating ice cream, slaving away at work, driving nice cars, ripping on our friends, etc. are all based on propogation of the species. A person is simply a carrier for a genetic line. imho

daryn

04-01-2006, 01:52 PM

great posts by double down and tolbiny!

miketurner

04-01-2006, 02:03 PM

Still waiting Lestat... What would your design look like?

Lestat

04-01-2006, 02:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Still waiting Lestat... What would your design look like?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I understand the question. My main point is that ALL life on earth doesn't seem a design at all to me, but an amazing array of struggle for survival.

What well intentioned purposeful designer would incorporate such struggle and suffering among ALL creatures of the earth? More importantly, what would be the purpose of it? Surely an intelligent all-powerful designer could have provided some replinishing food source or some other means of nourishment that didn't require ruthless killing and suffering.

Maybe that's your question. If I were to design a biosphere which supported life, I would try to provide a means of nourishment that didn't require the bloodshed and suffering of other creatures. I would give an equal finite length to lifespans in order to control the population of species. I wouldn't implement a necessary series of earthquakes or violent storms that destroyed creatures.

Of course, this is really silly. Even as an atheist I don't mean to disrespect God (if He exists), by implying I or anyone else could do a better job. I'm just saying as a theist, I would have a problem reconciling all the suffering that takes place in the world. Surely, God could have eliminated much if not all of it if He wanted to. And again... I'm not just talking about human suffering. I realize you can make a case for why humans must suffer in the eyes of God. I'm talking about all the other creatures who do not have a place in heaven and are not cognizant of God. Why should they suffer?

miketurner

04-01-2006, 02:47 PM

I think you answered the question just fine. Thanks. I just repectfully disagree with it.

I already stated a purpose of the design... It keeps the earth “young” and self sustaining. Not just the animals, but the landscape itself. Looking at the big picture, I just don’t have a problem at all with the way things work. It's just “recycling” /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

evolvedForm

04-01-2006, 03:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We are supposed to worship God, etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we should kill God, and then assume his power /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Already been done.

[ QUOTE ]
Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly: "I seek God! I seek God!"---As many of those who did not believe in God were standing around just then, he provoked much laughter. Has he got lost? asked one. Did he lose his way like a child? asked another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? emigrated?---Thus they yelled and laughed

The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes. "Whither is God?" he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him---you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.

"How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us---for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto."

Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke into pieces and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time is not yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering; it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time; the light of the stars requires time; deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than most distant stars---and yet they have done it themselves.

It has been related further that on the same day the madman forced his way into several churches and there struck up his requiem aeternam deo. Led out and called to account, he is said always to have replied nothing but: "What after all are these churches now if they are not the tombs and sepulchers of God?" - Nietzsche

[/ QUOTE ]

TomBrooks

04-01-2006, 04:45 PM

> don't the scriptures depict a "God" who has many human qualities, and is separate from us?

It might seem that way sometimes. The Scriptures are largely metaphorical and mythological and are easily misunderstood. If you give me a specific passage I will look at it.

> We are supposed to worship God?

In a sense, perhaps, but the typical implication of worship is to worship something else. This immediately creates a self imposed separation between oneself and God.

AceofSpades

04-01-2006, 05:41 PM

AceofSpades

04-01-2006, 06:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I've lurked for long enough.

The following are my beliefs about our universe (yes, this is an answer to this post of why our world appears to be so cruel in nature)

First of all, I think that our view of God is incredibly skewed. Every other thread on this forum is people trying to either prove or disprove God based on how Christianity defines God. We need to start thinking outside of that box.

A little background info on me: I was raised as a reform Jew, but at the same time thanks to my father and stepmom, was exposed to a great deal of new age philosophy and spirituality.

For what it's worth, I think that Christianity is pretty ridiculous. Along with others such as Mohammed and Buddha, Jesus was an ascended master. He was a spriritually evolved being who entered into our realm of existence to make us aware of things bigger than ourselves.
He wanted to inspire us to be like him, but like in most cases, humans messed up the whole thing and instead of focusing on what he taught during his life, they give too much emphasis to his death, thinking that this was his greatest gift.

Enough of what I do not believe. Here is what I think.
There is a consciousness that exists. Call it God, call it Spirit, or simply Consciousness. This consciousness is all encompassing. There is nothing in the universe that is NOT it. It is, by definition, all loving and all encompassing.
There is nothing separate from us called God.

This consciousness exists outside of space and time.

Here is where our universe comes from: For this consciousness to be able to appreciate itself, it has manifested the universe where it "tricks" itself into thinking that there is dualism; that there is something that exists outside of itself. This universe is illusory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to the forum btw, I look forward to arguing with you /images/graemlins/grin.gif. As far as your belief system, I think you have been sold a bill of goods.

How would God feel the need or even have the idea of self-appreciation, if it could not already appreciate itself? Especially if there is nothing apart from God?

Futhermore, why are there animals? Animals at some level don't have a choice about "choosing" their own self interest. The brain power they have doesn't give them the option of doing anything BUT "seeking to preserve the best for themselves." So they are stuck!

A central tenet of your belief stands directly on reincarnation. Given that glaring lack of widespread evidence supporting that view, how can you believe it?

Also, how can you place the ultimate amount of evidence that the universe exists under your belief that it does not? In other words, how can you know your belief is not the illusion?

- Joseph

Double Down

04-01-2006, 08:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Welcome to the forum btw, I look forward to arguing with you /images/graemlins/grin.gif. As far as your belief system, I think you have been sold a bill of goods.

How would God feel the need or even have the idea of self-appreciation, if it could not already appreciate itself? Especially if there is nothing apart from God?

Futhermore, why are there animals? Animals at some level don't have a choice about "choosing" their own self interest. The brain power they have doesn't give them the option of doing anything BUT "seeking to preserve the best for themselves." So they are stuck!

A central tenet of your belief stands directly on reincarnation. Given that glaring lack of widespread evidence supporting that view, how can you believe it?

Also, how can you place the ultimate amount of evidence that the universe exists under your belief that it does not? In other words, how can you know your belief is not the illusion?

- Joseph

[/ QUOTE ]

Animals are no more stuck than we are. Animals differ from us in that they are on a lower level on consciousness from us. But just as they have limitations at their level, we do, too. But it is possible to eventually break out of it and ascend to a higher plane.

There's evidence against reincarnation? I'm not aware of it, please explain. I do have evidence for reincarnation, but you first. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

We experience this universe as real because our collective consciousness has created it. But we are learning from things such as quantum physics (well, science is finally learning what many have already known) that consciousness creates matter, not vice versa.

To use another example, you say that the universe is self evident that it exists, but what if the universe is like the matrix? How would we ever know?

evolvedForm

04-01-2006, 09:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]

So the answer to the question of why this world is cruel, is because this level of existence was created out of the idea of "what if" something wasn't God? And from that, Consciousness manifested several consciousnesses that do not realize that they are one and the same. In this world, organisms seek to preserve the best for themselves. From this, fear, hatred, worry, and suffering are created.

[/ QUOTE ]

So all suffering sprang from the idea of things NOT being "god?"

I don't know where to start arguing you, so I won't. Don't mean to offend, but it seems you have been severely influenced (brainwashed?) by some strange religion/cult.

All philosophies offering explanations for and cures from suffering are sick philosophies that attract needy people or turn healthy people sick.

tolbiny

04-01-2006, 09:38 PM

< Perhaps god could have created a perfect universe where we recieved our strength directly from the sun and nothing ever needed to eat or be eaten. But whre is the beauty and variety in that? >

It would be inherently beautiful, have you ever seen a beautiful woman without a huge scar on her face? Furthermore, what is heaven but absense/freedom from suffering?

--------------------------------

Inherently beautiful? Beauty is a subjective measure, we all like differnt things. OUr experiences shape our desires, perceptions and judgments. If all women looked exactly equal how could you say that any of them are beautiful? They would all be average- and if thats all you ever saw that is exactly what you would think if a world filled with 3 billion jessica alba's. Beauty exits as a word to differentiate a thing from something that is "not beautiful".

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Umm. Pleasure? Sex isn't good because you know the agony of stubbing your toe. It's just pleasurable in itself.

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Its pleasureable because its better than the alternative that is not having sex (or not doing something pleasurable). Again sex is pleasureable because we like it (some people don't, but not many) compared to our other experiences.

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< What do you get when you indulge a child's every whim, overfeed him, keep him out of harms way? >

What do you get if you beat a kid constantly with chains and lock him in box crawling with snakes and roaches and flesh eating worms? Won't he be better off when he grows up and appreciate being free more? Wouldn't that heighten his pleasure later, wouldn't it be good?

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Yes locking a kid in a box would be bad (probably worse) than giving no pain (responsibility, whatever), but the best is a mix. Pleasure is a good teacher as well- but not if you reward any behavior. If you give a kid a treat when he does anything you will simply enforce his first random behavior (which is usually to cry).
On the other hand if you are overly strict (or abusive) then no matter how a kid acts he will be negatively rewarded- and he won't learn which behavior is best. They are all essentially equal to him as they all end in punishment. So usually he lashes out, in a way he is trying to find a suitable behavoir- so he copies one that is stronger than he is. If the person is abuisive the child learns that to be strong and in controll is to be aggressive and unthinking.
Neither child has learned anything because they have no basis for comparison.

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I would argue that pleasure is terrific for learning, and overindulging a child is far from prevention of the child suffering

yes, pleasure is a good learning tool. But it needs context and comparison. For there to be pleasure there has to be "not pleasure".

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A world without a need for mercy would be better than a world that needs it.

You are right, in a world without pain and suffering there is not only no need for mercy, but no way the concept can exist. If you want to argue that world is better, fine, i disagree and believe that one of the greatest parts of existance is learning.
But there is mercy in this world.

Double Down

04-01-2006, 10:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I don't know where to start arguing you, so I won't. Don't mean to offend, but it seems you have been severely influenced (brainwashed?) by some strange religion/cult.

All philosophies offering explanations for and cures from suffering are sick philosophies that attract needy people or turn healthy people sick.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I haven't been brainwashed by any cult. These ideas are readily accessible for anyone who is interested, from several sources that do not require any sort of money or allegiance in return. More and more people are becoming aware of these ideas, and humanity is on the cusp of a spiritual revolution.

A little more background on myself, I am very, very skeptical by nature. I'm in no way a gullible dude who latches onto the first philosophy that seems right to me. I have a mind for science and math more than anything else.

Most recently, I read a book called "The Ancient Secret of the Flower of Life." There are a lot of discussions on this forum about proof of some sort of greater intelligence at work. IMO, this book provides a great deal of evidence for this.

It's a pretty closedminded thing to say that all philosophies that offer explanations about our universe are sick philosophies.

chezlaw

04-01-2006, 10:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Once, all life in the universe knew the Flower of Life as the creation pattern - the geometrical design leading us into and out of physical existence. Then from a very high state of consciousness we fell in darkness and forgot who we were. For thousands of years the secret was held in ancient artifacts and carvings around the world, and encoded in the cells of all life.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Explore the miracle of our existence by meandering through the wonderland of geometry, science, ancient history and new discovery, seen through the widened vision of Drunvalo and the Flower of Life. Volume 2 will explore in great detail the Mer-Ka-Ba, the 55-foot-diameter energy field of the human lightbody. This knowledge leads to ascension and the next dimensional world.

[/ QUOTE ]
help nurse

chez

purnell

04-01-2006, 10:12 PM

Maybe I should change my avatar. Nahhh, Daylilies r teh pwn.

Double Down

04-01-2006, 10:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once, all life in the universe knew the Flower of Life as the creation pattern - the geometrical design leading us into and out of physical existence. Then from a very high state of consciousness we fell in darkness and forgot who we were. For thousands of years the secret was held in ancient artifacts and carvings around the world, and encoded in the cells of all life.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Explore the miracle of our existence by meandering through the wonderland of geometry, science, ancient history and new discovery, seen through the widened vision of Drunvalo and the Flower of Life. Volume 2 will explore in great detail the Mer-Ka-Ba, the 55-foot-diameter energy field of the human lightbody. This knowledge leads to ascension and the next dimensional world.

[/ QUOTE ]
help nurse

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you discounting it because of the flighty language?

madnak

04-01-2006, 11:03 PM

You chose an interesting day to stop lurking.

AceofSpades

04-01-2006, 11:28 PM

---------------------------------------------
Inherently beautiful? Beauty is a subjective measure, we all like differnt things. If all women looked exactly equal how could you say that any of them are beautiful? They would all be average- and if thats all you ever saw that is exactly what you would think if a world filled with 3 billion jessica alba's. Beauty exits as a word to differentiate a thing from something that is "not beautiful".
---------------------------------------------------------

This is wrong. Try this thought experiment: Imagine two worlds, on one place the hottest woman you have ever seen.
On the other, place the most physically repellent woman you have ever seen. Suppose you and a clone were on both worlds and had only seen that one woman ever. Do you really think the level of attraction (on both worlds) would be equal and exactly equal to the level of attraction you feel for the completely average female now?

Beauty exists because experiencing it causes a positive reaction in us. If all women looks exactly alike, then if they were attractive, they would still maintain the same level of attraction they had before.

Attraction is based on a lot of factors, but has a common basis for all people. (which is a regular, level spacing of facial features). Studies have been done to show this to be valid across various cultures.
---------
Its pleasureable because its better than the alternative that is not having sex (or not doing something pleasurable). Again sex is pleasureable because we like it (some people don't, but not many) compared to our other experiences.

---------------------------

Do you deny that there is a bio-chemical basis for feeling pleasure? And the null state is beside the point, unless you are arguing that without suffering, the null state would be suffering.

It it your opinion that a person without a memory cannot feel pleasure or pain?

AceofSpades

04-01-2006, 11:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You chose an interesting day to stop lurking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh crap...Forgot about that...

tolbiny

04-02-2006, 12:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is wrong. Try this thought experiment: Imagine two worlds, on one place the hottest woman you have ever seen.
On the other, place the most physically repellent woman you have ever seen. Suppose you and a clone were on both worlds and had only seen that one woman ever. Do you really think the level of attraction (on both worlds) would be equal and exactly equal to the level of attraction you feel for the completely average female now?

Beauty exists because experiencing it causes a positive reaction in us. If all women looks exactly alike, then if they were attractive, they would still maintain the same level of attraction they had before.

Attraction is based on a lot of factors, but has a common basis for all people. (which is a regular, level spacing of facial features). Studies have been done to show this to be valid across various cultures.

[/ QUOTE ]

All this is (if you believe in evolution) based upon natural and sexual selection, which is a comparison of multiple choices. If i perfer a certain style face it is because i have been programmed either genetically or socially to do so such things have no meaning without comparison in our world.

[ QUOTE ]
Its pleasureable because its better than the alternative that is not having sex (or not doing something pleasurable). Again sex is pleasureable because we like it (some people don't, but not many) compared to our other experiences.

---------------------------

Do you deny that there is a bio-chemical basis for feeling pleasure? And the null state is beside the point, unless you are arguing that without suffering, the null state would be suffering.

[/ QUOTE ]

No i don't deny that there is a biochemical basis for feeling pleasure. But how would you define that state if you had never experienced anything but it? What is a Null state? When have you ever expericned no emotions or thoughts?

Tell me the difference between pleasure and pain? Being tied down and whipped is pain for most people- but for some it releases the most orgasmic feelings that they can gain from few other experiences. The fact that we (as humans) are often attracted to similar features or representations of beauty does not speak to its inherent beauty but more so to the commonality of our genetic and social backgrounds.
Beauty is just a word that we use to describe things that we enjoy as sensory input, the same with pleasure.

"It it your opinion that a person without a memory cannot feel pleasure or pain?"

It depends on what you mean by memory. We all have genetic memory that we carry with us. If no such programming existed would you be more likely to enjoy chocolate cake or dirt? Chocolate cake is much more valuable for us to eat, but dirt is more valuable to a tomato plant. Which has inherntly more value?

AceofSpades

04-02-2006, 12:06 AM

>Animals are no more stuck than we are. Animals differ
>from
>us in that they are on a lower level on consciousness from
>us. But just as they have limitations at their level, we
>do, too. But it is possible to eventually break out of it
>and ascend to a higher plane.

How? The first example made no provisions beyond "actions outside self interest"

>There's evidence against reincarnation? I'm not aware of >it, please explain. I do have evidence for reincarnation, >but you first. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Yes. The widespread lack of support for reincarnation is evidence that it doesn't exist. Among a few, lack of memory from previous lifes, discovery of new species that we didn't know existed, skills that must be learned that would have been learned in a previous life, the existence of "wild" children that can't speak, language barriers, etc, etc, etc.

How young were you when you were taught this? Was there a "group" type structure, or did you just gather these type of beliefs from various books/parents? If your belief structure gets shattered, how would that make you feel?

>We experience this universe as real because our collective >consciousness has created it. But we are learning from >things such as quantum physics (well, science is finally >learning what many have already known) that consciousness >creates matter, not vice versa.

I'm pretty sure you might want to check your sources on that one. Becauses it's wrong. Try creating a diamond in the shape of Jose Canseco.

Get back to me if you succeed because, I'd like to go into business with you. When you fail, what does that say about concuciouness creating matter?

>To use another example, you say that the universe is self >evident that it exists, but what if the universe is like >the matrix? How would we ever know?

The argument that it is possible we cannot know anything measured by our senses is possibly valid. However, it cannot support any argument because it makes ALL explanations (which are multually excusive) about the true nature of things equally valid. So it is pointless to discuss it.

godBoy

04-02-2006, 02:38 AM

I feel I am a 'higher being' than.. say a worm.
I don't think it's at all important to watch insects eating another insect and conclude the world is so cruel.
I think the world and everything in it was made for humans so the deaths of animals isn't so relevant to human life.

I think it more accurate and healthy to look up and see the world rather than looking just a little father than our toes. If we looked up we would see a world much more beatiful and abunadant than the cruel, chunk of dirt that Lestat has described. I can't relate personally to the world Lestat sees..
I am not talking about natural disasters..

MidGe

04-02-2006, 03:11 AM

The lack of compassion that seems to go hand in hand with belief on god, for many, but I hope not all, is absolutely amazing. I regretfully have to say that it seems to be a consistent characteristic.

What is worse, is that believers do not see this lack of compassion in themselves. They seem totally oblivious to it.

It somehow reminds me of a psychological experiment of a few years ago, where people were divided into two groups, the testers and the testees. The testers were told that for the purpose of the study they had to give electric shocks of varying intensity when the testees were making mistakes. The gradation were quite specific, if I remember accurately, including a setting of intense pain. Nevertheless, the objects of the study were, unknowing to them, the "testers". As far as I remember again, altough they were seeing the testees wringing in pain (acting) when they were asked to increase the pain level not a single one in the study refused to do so.

I hope some of you get what I am getting here!

The next thing that I do not understand is the total denial that some people have regarding the human (and animal) condition, the absolute refusal to see what takes place and only aknowledge the brighter side of thing. Is this blindness wishful thinking, is it part and parcel of the conditioning they underwent, something else?

yukoncpa

04-02-2006, 03:39 AM

Here's Milgram's experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) you were referring to. Where the testers were told by an authoritarian figure to perform shocks on subjects. Amazingly, many of these testers gave shocks that they thought might be fatal, simply because a man in charge told them to do it.
Psychologists polled before the test, concurred that perhaps a few sadists out of the test subjects would administer a potentially lethal shock, but when the test was actually given, 65% of those tested gave the most potent of shocks even after the testee banged on the walls pleading for the test to stop and yelling about their heart condition.
This test was repeated world wide with similar results.
The extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority constitutes the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding explanation."

MidGe

04-02-2006, 04:57 AM

Thanks for this link yukoncpa. That's precisely the experiment I was thinking about.

The real worry is when people somehow think that the authority is "divine" or "divine" related and are willing to submit to that authority!

godBoy

04-02-2006, 05:35 AM

MidGe's right - The world is an utter piece of [censored] that only kills and harms. And God's to blame... No he's not, I don't believe in God.

I can't imagine anyone who would choose to believe what MidGe does, reducing a human to a insect struggling for life in this crap hole.

Apparently I show no compassion.. I don't see it.. Perhaps for saying that animals aren't as deserving as humans... But their not! We are special, life is what we make it. You don't have to be blind and stare at the ground. The beauty of the world is what is truly astonishing. If it such a terrible thing to see that the world is good, I don't see where you're coming from.

A child's amzazement at what he sees - I wan't to see. When we get so intelligent and knowing - that we hate the world.. is far from understanding and true intelligence. It is intelligent to find Joy and experience Life.

Put your head in the clouds MidGe /images/graemlins/smile.gif
There is just so much goodness in the world. I don't want to hate and despise it, it's not healthy/helpful for any person. You don't see the world accurately at all.

yukoncpa

04-02-2006, 05:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps for saying that animals aren't as deserving as humans... But their not!

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Godboy, ( love your new avatar )

You would be dangerous in a time machine. Imagine going back many, many years where all primates were merely shrew like creatures. While your partners in this time adventure might be awed by the sites of a wondrous new earth, you would be setting mouse traps, getting rid of those scampy little critters crawling in your sleeping bag. By killing just a few of those animals ( they are less than human ) you would potentially be wiping out the whole human race.

godBoy

04-02-2006, 05:56 AM

But that's just it, I don't think we came from scampy little critters.. I think we were made with great care and hold some real value.
btw, I don't hate animals or harm them.

yukoncpa

04-02-2006, 05:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
btw, I don't hate animals or harm them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't think you did. But I still like my amusing allegory.
On with my favorite entertainment - the Midge/Godboy debates.

godBoy

04-02-2006, 06:04 AM

Do you feel the world is such a bad place yukoncpa?

yukoncpa

04-02-2006, 06:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you feel the world is such a bad place yukoncpa?

[/ QUOTE ]

I love the world. I wish I could live all of eternity right on this planet, but once in a while, I get really depressed. I overcome my depression by having these types of conversations. ( and getting laid, etc, etc. )

Cyrus

04-02-2006, 06:29 AM

Not "some animals" but all living forms are like what you described: We hunt/trap and devour other creatures of the fauna and flora, we consume them and then we excrete the useless remains.

The important characteristic of this process is that it is neither evil nor cruel, but a prerequisite for life. Calling the process evil is like calling carbon evil.

What is possible after accepting this? "When all is said and done, there is no advice to be given" --William James.

Cyrus

04-02-2006, 06:38 AM

Why are you making such a big distinction between humans and (the other) animals ? Our physical selves are totally animalistic. The only physical difference is the higher capability of the human brain. That's all. DNA-wise, etc, we are pure animals.

And in this animal world, it is necessary to intake energy in order to prolong one's life -- until the time of its unavoidable end. That energy is taken by devouring other living beings, of the fauna and/or the flora. (In the process, some bits of unpleasantness happen, e.g. ripping apart the flesh of a newborn chicken to eat its insides; farting out the gases from digesting it; etc.)

[ QUOTE ]
I think it more accurate and healthy to look up and see the world rather than looking just a little father than our toes.

[/ QUOTE ] Oh it happens in the air, too. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

MidGe

04-02-2006, 06:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently I show no compassion.. I don't see it.. Perhaps for saying that animals aren't as deserving as humans... But their not! We are special, life is what we make it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't see it.. that's the worst part... It is one thing to repeat what you have been thhaught, it is another to be so alienated from experience that you don't even experience the feelings of compassion (even for animals suffering), or have any empathy. It is a true indication of deep brainwashing.

By the way, I really find your faith very odious and dangerous to all. It is litterally a very small step away from condoning murdering people. I am sorry you don't see it, I hope some people, at least, do.

By the way also, you new avatar reflects very well the very mechanical aspect of your life, you do express yourself as a programmed robot. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

siegfriedandroy

04-02-2006, 08:23 AM

cyrus shut up. mmmm is right. your posts truly are of zero value. you thinking ur bright, but ur really a worthless jacka*s. clearly not too intelligent. but you are just another worm, right? i am drunk, so cannot formulate an incredible response right now. but i know drunk or sober, that ur an ass. lestat poses a legitimate question about suffering in a theistic universe, and you pose ur sh*t about savage reality. u r likely a hypocrite. id explain it to you if you were here, probably by kicking the sh*t out of you, thereby showing you what a 'godless' universe really is. fool

siegfriedandroy

04-02-2006, 08:27 AM

midge, why dont 'believers ee the lack of compassion in themselves'? you seem fairly reasonable, but if your evolutionary system is truth, then clearly it is solely responsible for these believers lack of compassion. atheists always attack theists, but never discuss how blind evolutionary odd defying chance is responsible for creating these christians, who could not possibly be otherwise. so biased, yet blissfully midge am i off? didnt read your last sentence till after i wrote this

siegfriedandroy

04-02-2006, 08:31 AM

i believe the world consists of incredible great occurrences and also incredible dire events. it is extreme to both sides, beyond godboy or midge's comprehension either way.

siegfriedandroy

04-02-2006, 08:34 AM

i dont have substantial basis for believing this, but im pretty sure a 2 month old infant prefers choc cake over dirt, no?

MidGe

04-02-2006, 08:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
midge, why dont 'believers ee the lack of compassion in themselves'? you seem fairly reasonable, but if your evolutionary system is truth, then clearly it is solely responsible for these believers lack of compassion. atheists always attack theists, but never discuss how blind evolutionary odd defying chance is responsible for creating these christians, who could not possibly be otherwise. so biased, yet blissfully midge am i off? didnt read your last sentence till after i wrote this

[/ QUOTE ]

S&G,

You are absolutely right. The difference is that I think that mere chance may make people realise how much they are conditioned, accidentally so to speak, not due to an absolute being interference. In fact that realisation, if it comes may very well be an epiphenomena of more mundame mechanisms. Regardless, once realised, it is very hard to go back. /images/graemlins/smile.gif See, nothing up my sleeves, I don't really on fantastic concepts. If life is as it is, peopled with those that have no experience of compassion, no empathy for others, hey, what can I do? I just happen to think, due to my observations, that most people are compassionate, until such time as they have been manipulated by their masters via beliefs in a supreme causal being, a viral meme so to speak. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

PS I know which world I would rather live in.. and that is one with compassionate people rather than people infected by that odious meme.

Lestat

04-02-2006, 11:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Not "some animals" but all living forms are like what you described: We hunt/trap and devour other creatures of the fauna and flora, we consume them and then we excrete the useless remains.

The important characteristic of this process is that it is neither evil nor cruel, but a prerequisite for life. Calling the process evil is like calling carbon evil.

What is possible after accepting this? "When all is said and done, there is no advice to be given" --William James.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I never called it evil. But I do think it is ruthless and cruel. A biosphere which has formed creatures who need to kill and eat each other in order to evolve and survive. Seems like a ruthless system to me. If there is a God, why would He create such a ruthless system of survival?

Lestat

04-02-2006, 11:48 AM

Regardless of whether animals and insects are important, why such a ruthless system of survival? And are humans any different? In addition to slaughtering animals, we also kill our own kind. I'm not saying this world doesn't have beauty, but I think it's quite naive to dismiss 90% of the world we live in.

This is why you can't relate to REAL world. You dismiss most of it and see only what you want to see. It must be nice.

Lestat

04-02-2006, 11:59 AM

These are excellent thoughts MidGe and I think this subject deserves its own post. I see the same thing you do and wonder why "some" theists are often the least compassionate people when it comes to other's suffering. I'm sure it has to do with "some", who put themselves on such a higher moral ground than any other living thing. Including humans who don't hold the same beliefs.

evolvedForm

04-02-2006, 12:13 PM

I think it more accurate and healthy to look up and see the world rather than looking just a little father than our toes. If we looked up we would see a world much more beatiful and abunadant than the cruel, chunk of dirt that Lestat has described. I can't relate personally to the world Lestat sees.. I am not talking about natural disasters..



Natural disasters occur on smaller scales too, but have no less impact. What about plagues, AIDS, cancer, and other diseases? What about kids being born into abusive families? Are these things less natural?

When it comes to horrible realites like these - and many doctors in war hospitals would admit there is no god - it does become hard to say the world is beautiful. These are usually innocent people (i.e. children) who suffer all kinds of atrocities. Beauty can be found in this world, but it is a different kind of beauty. It's not the innocent, pure, virginal type portrayed by Jesus, for that is not beauty but withdrawl. Beauty is strength; it is manifest by the hard turn of life's constituents toward life itself, in a proud, paradoxical affectation of acceptance and defiance. It is to say, "this is my horrible existence, my suffering, my life, and there is no more; but I will conquer it and call on my strength to overcome, to triumph - if even for one, glorious moment."

All sentient beings suffer. Humans only can come to this crossroads and determine how to meet their suffering. This choice is not reserved strictly for the plague-stricken.

Lestat

04-02-2006, 01:12 PM

Wow, very eloquent post...

Zygote

04-02-2006, 03:44 PM

cruelty is a strategy. cooperation is a strategy. they both have effective applications.

J. Stew

04-02-2006, 03:46 PM

Suffering in nature, yeah, but why does it have to built in? Who built it in? Only the discriminating mind calls life suffering. You say this is MY proof but there is no MY. What you think of as MY is the suffering.

Lestat

04-02-2006, 03:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Suffering in nature, yeah, but why does it have to built in? Who built it in? Only the discriminating mind calls life suffering. You say this is MY proof but there is no MY. What you think of as MY is the suffering.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point Stew, but I'm just saying that life on this planet doesn't come easy. Would you disagree with that statement?

By MY proof, I meant that it seems illogical to me that a creator would have set things up this way. Of course, being a mere mortal I easily could be wrong about this. It could be an ingenious way to set up life on earth. But I still don't get why the suffering? Why the ruthlessness which is inherent in all of nature?

J. Stew

04-02-2006, 04:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Suffering in nature, yeah, but why does it have to built in? Who built it in? Only the discriminating mind calls life suffering. You say this is MY proof but there is no MY. What you think of as MY is the suffering.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point Stew, but I'm just saying that life on this planet doesn't come easy. Would you disagree with that statement?

By MY proof, I meant that it seems illogical to me that a creator would have set things up this way. Of course, being a mere mortal I easily could be wrong about this. It could be an ingenious way to set up life on earth. But I still don't get why the suffering? Why the ruthlessness which is inherent in all of nature?

[/ QUOTE ]

Life is not easy would be comparing easy with difficult which is dualistic. Really there is just gradient degrees of easy and difficult as one and we conceptualize something as on one of the extremes calling it either easy or difficult. Suffering is the same thing. There are gradient degrees of suffering and enlightenment to that suffering. The mind that sees non-dualistically, that is able to see outside and step back from its' own thoughts it thinks is truth, while still knowing that thoughts it's thinking is/are truth/reality. . . the conceptual paradox, is the mind that doesn't suffer.

Why the ruthlessness is a good question. It's a question that in order to answer you have to step outside of normal conceptual thinking which means being open to letting ego fade into underlying consciousness. Thought-feelings paint the canvas into beautiful and nasty paintings but it's always paint on top of the underlying canvas. The underlying canvas is God, or the suchness/emptyness of everything and I think only by knowing that underlying vibration can the mind be in tune with the answer to suffering.

spaminator101

04-02-2006, 04:44 PM

well i wonder what would you do if you were God. You would probably say no suffering everyone loves everyone. NO disease, no pain? What would you do if your creation rebelled against you, your prize possession doesn't love you anymore. IM sure you would just be fine with that wouldn't you.

Lestat

04-02-2006, 05:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
well i wonder what would you do if you were God. You would probably say no suffering everyone loves everyone. NO disease, no pain? What would you do if your creation rebelled against you, your prize possession doesn't love you anymore. IM sure you would just be fine with that wouldn't you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing the point. At the very least, you missed the part where I said that I'm not just referring to humans.

Is God worried about the Antelope rebelling against Him?

thekiller

04-02-2006, 05:43 PM

Random soap box nonsense.

Double Down

04-02-2006, 06:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]

By MY proof, I meant that it seems illogical to me that a creator would have set things up this way. I still don't get why the suffering? Why the ruthlessness which is inherent in all of nature?

[/ QUOTE ]

My post was pretty long, so you might not have understood how I was responding to your OP. What I am proposing is that this world is NOT a world of God, but rather a world created to show us what is NOT God. And that is why the very nature of this planet is fear, greed, and a focus on surviving in THIS world. We are placed here to learn the lessons of what happens when we focus our energy on these things, and to learn how to turn our focus away from that and more towards love and compassion. And when we perfect this, we will ascend to higher levels of consciousness.

So this is a world of suffering because this is a world created to show us what happens when we think ourselves separate from each other and God.

MidGe

04-02-2006, 07:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So this is a world of suffering because this is a world created to show us what happens when we think ourselves separate from each other and God.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want/need to be shown. I have a good enough imagination. I can even imagine a compassionate world. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

TomBrooks

04-02-2006, 08:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The people who are suffering do so because they have not realized the how to live. They have not realized who they are.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was going to link to information on those born into lives of suffering who die horribly whilst still children but then I remembered the date. Nice one, had me going for a moment. chez

[/ QUOTE ]
LoL chez, my post was not meant as an April Fools jopke.

You reference physical suffering and death. Physical suffering, even torture, is insignificant compared to separation from God. And when one realizes their Godlike state, it is unlikely they will have anything to worry about physically as those things have a way of working themselves out. Even in cases where things don't get better, union with the divine has a way of alleviating pain. Look for example, to the Christians who were willing to be tossed to the lions rather than denounce their faith.

Jesus Christ himself was tortured and crucified, so the scriptures tell us that union with the divine is not a guarentee of comfort and safety for our bodies, but perhaps his death was to illustrate another principal, to wit: that our conception of ourselves must die in order that we can resurrect and realize what we truly are.

Lestat

04-02-2006, 08:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

By MY proof, I meant that it seems illogical to me that a creator would have set things up this way. I still don't get why the suffering? Why the ruthlessness which is inherent in all of nature?

[/ QUOTE ]

My post was pretty long, so you might not have understood how I was responding to your OP. What I am proposing is that this world is NOT a world of God, but rather a world created to show us what is NOT God. And that is why the very nature of this planet is fear, greed, and a focus on surviving in THIS world. We are placed here to learn the lessons of what happens when we focus our energy on these things, and to learn how to turn our focus away from that and more towards love and compassion. And when we perfect this, we will ascend to higher levels of consciousness.

So this is a world of suffering because this is a world created to show us what happens when we think ourselves separate from each other and God.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are all nice thoughts Double Down, and I guess I have no problem with them. However...

Even though you've been very eloquent in explaining your beliefs.. And they are nice beliefs... Exactly what logic led you to these beliefs?

Lestat

04-02-2006, 08:28 PM

Physical suffering, even torture, is insignificant compared to separation from God. 

And you know this, how?

bunny

04-02-2006, 08:41 PM

Good post, Lestat. This is a good formulation of what I think is the theist's most difficult problem.

One of the problems I have grappled with is why God didnt cause something to evolve that enjoyed being prey - this isnt inconceivable to me if being devoured was an integral part of an organisms reproductive cycle.

J. Stew

04-02-2006, 09:15 PM

BUT, to say that this world is not a world of God is to deny what sees suffering. That which sees suffering is not suffering. What sees suffering is the inlet to God which becomes an outlet/manifestation of grace yeah?

J. Stew

04-02-2006, 09:18 PM

Good people those Australians . . .

TomBrooks

04-02-2006, 09:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Physical suffering, even torture, is insignificant compared to separation from God. 
And you know this, how?

[/ QUOTE ]
From my own experience and the description of experiences of others.

Lestat

04-02-2006, 10:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Physical suffering, even torture, is insignificant compared to separation from God. 
And you know this, how?

[/ QUOTE ]
From my own experience and the description of experiences of others.

[/ QUOTE ]

So let me get this straight... You've been seperated from God and can honestly say you found this to be more torturous than say, having your skin peeled off to the muscle head to toe with a sharp parer and being doused in lemon juice?

That must've been one difficult chapter in your life. However did you make it through?

MidGe

04-02-2006, 10:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Physical suffering, even torture, is insignificant compared to separation from God. 
And you know this, how?

[/ QUOTE ]
From my own experience and the description of experiences of others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again we are back to the end justify the means, whether for God or others, make mo difference to me. It is plain wrong. This is one of the most dangerous thought of christianity. To repeat myself, that is only a very little step away from justifying suicide bombing! Please open your mind to what it is you really are saying!

TomBrooks

04-03-2006, 12:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Physical suffering, even torture, is insignificant compared to separation from God. 
And you know this, how?

[/ QUOTE ]
From my own experience and the description of experiences of others.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again we are back to the end justify the means, whether for God or others, make mo difference to me. It is plain wrong. This is one of the most dangerous thought of christianity. To repeat myself, that is only a very little step away from justifying suicide bombing! Please open your mind to what it is you really are saying!

[/ QUOTE ]
People who understand "God", and I use that word with reservation because many people have preconceptions about what it means but actually have no idea, are neither inclined to commit suicide nor kill other people. As a matter of fact, it takes a decided separation from God to do either of those things.

Lestat

04-03-2006, 01:08 AM

So you are saying that Muslims engaged in jihad don't understand God?

And are you also saying that people like President Bush and all other Christians don't understand God when they say, "God bless America" immediately after justifying our reasons for war?

Utah

04-03-2006, 01:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
People who understand "God", and I use that word with reservation because many people have preconceptions about what it means but actually have no idea, are neither inclined to commit suicide nor kill other people. As a matter of fact, it takes a decided separation from God to do either of those things.

[/ QUOTE ]You are making an assumptuon that there is a "God". Also, how do you know God and suicide dont mix?

AceofSpades

04-03-2006, 02:15 AM

Once I got separated from God. It was bad, but not as bad as breaking my wrist. After we divorced I realized he never existed, and became very joyful and free. The release from the cognative dissonance of two conflicting "truths" is truely an amazing thing.

MidGe

04-03-2006, 03:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
People who understand "God", and I use that word with reservation because many people have preconceptions about what it means but actually have no idea

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and everyone who "thinks" he understand god thinks exactly the same. They think others have preconceptions about god.

LOL ORLY

moorobot

04-03-2006, 05:48 AM

The OP illustrates the correct view on the question of god: either there is not a god or she doesn't give a [censored]. The belief in a benovelent god is one of the worst pieces of 'common sense' in the history of the world

siegfriedandroy

04-03-2006, 05:59 AM

Perhaps the toughest question of all, many say. I think some Christians would try to argue that all the chaos, evil, horror in the world is ALL a consequence of the fall, and that before that God's creation was perfect and devoid of suffering, similar to the hypothetical you just posted about how you would design.

MidGe

04-03-2006, 06:15 AM

s&g,

Then we have the problem of progeny having to pay for the ancestors sins. A sort of really, barbaric, justice.

chezlaw

04-03-2006, 06:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
s&g,

Then we have the problem of progeny having to pay for the ancestors sins. A sort of really, barbaric, justice.

[/ QUOTE ]
Plus you get a god who created man suffering from temptation and then tempted him. It was only a matter of time before the inevitable happened and god knowing that is still to blame.

chez

MidGe

04-03-2006, 06:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
s&g,

Then we have the problem of progeny having to pay for the ancestors sins. A sort of really, barbaric, justice.

[/ QUOTE ]
Plus you get a god who created man suffering from temptation and then tempted him. It was only a matter of time before the inevitable happened and god knowing that is still to blame.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, indeed, especially that the temptation was setup by the all powerful god! Hard to resist that type of temptation! The dude is BAD. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Lestat

04-03-2006, 11:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Once I got separated from God. It was bad, but not as bad as breaking my wrist. After we divorced I realized he never existed, and became very joyful and free. The release from the cognative dissonance of two conflicting "truths" is truely an amazing thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had the exact same experience once I realized there is no god. Joy and freedom.

Lestat

04-03-2006, 11:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps the toughest question of all, many say. I think some Christians would try to argue that all the chaos, evil, horror in the world is ALL a consequence of the fall, and that before that God's creation was perfect and devoid of suffering, similar to the hypothetical you just posted about how you would design.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what the bible would have you believe, but...

Why about all other creatures that are not human and free of sin? Can you see why this is such an issue for me?

TomBrooks

04-03-2006, 06:13 PM

>So you are saying that Muslims engaged in jihad don't understand God?

Correct. Absolutely.

> And are you also saying that people like President Bush and all other Christians don't understand God when they say, "God bless America" immediately after justifying our reasons for war?

That is correct. They generally are clueless about God. They read scriptures and think they know God. That would be like reading a menu and thinking they ate food.

One who was in concert with God would not lie, mislead, hate and recklessly kill. It just wouldn't be in their nature and potential set of motivations to do so.

Lestat

04-03-2006, 06:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]

>So you are saying that Muslims engaged in jihad don't understand God?

Correct. Absolutely.

> And are you also saying that people like President Bush and all other Christians don't understand God when they say, "God bless America" immediately after justifying our reasons for war?

That is correct. They generally are clueless about God. They read scriptures and think they know God. That would be like reading a menu and thinking they ate food.

One who was in concert with God would not lie, mislead, hate and recklessly kill. It just wouldn't be in their nature and potential set of motivations to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you read any of Midge's posts on this subject? Because this is exactly what he gets at... Almost anyone who believes in god thinks god is in their corner and is in danger of becoming just like those people he considers to be ridiculously irrational.

AceofSpades

04-03-2006, 11:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]

>So you are saying that Muslims engaged in jihad don't understand God?

Correct. Absolutely.

[/ QUOTE ]

On what basis do you believe there is a God, and that holy jihad is not what he desires? What has God said?

Cyrus

04-04-2006, 02:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
cyrus shut up. mmmm is right. your posts truly are of zero value. you thinking ur bright, but ur really a worthless jacka*s. clearly not too intelligent. but you are just another worm, right? i am drunk, so cannot formulate an incredible response right now. but i know drunk or sober, that ur an ass. lestat poses a legitimate question about suffering in a theistic universe, and you pose ur sh*t about savage reality. u r likely a hypocrite. id explain it to you if you were here, probably by kicking the sh*t out of you, thereby showing you what a 'godless' universe really is. fool

[/ QUOTE ]I don't think you're drunk.

Cyrus

04-04-2006, 02:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If there is a God, why would He create such a ruthless system of survival?

[/ QUOTE ]

Asking such a question invites several explanations, which may or may not have to be true at the same time:

A. That the human perception of morality ("evil", "cruel", "ruthless", etc) is NOT a universal criterion.

B. That God does not operate within the human perception of Right and Wrong.

C. That a God could not actually exist.

As to 'A', I have not seen a single example of human morality (an artificial construct even for Man) anywhere else in Nature, so I'd have to conclude that Man's morality is unique. (More fuel for the "accidental/exceptional" theory of Man's existence.) So, if Man is unique in the universe, we human are judging the universe the wrong way. Which, in turn, means we are alone -- with, at best, a God who also does not "think" like us!

In 'B', we have a perfectly reasonable premise: A person from another country starts speaking a foreign language to us. Some of the words sound familiar, and a few of them sound like four-letter English words. The rest we don't understand. This does not mean that the foreign person is not making perfect sense in his language. In fact, chances are that he is saying something totally legitimate, though understandable only in his language -- or imperfectly through an attempt at translation.

All this is well and good but here's the rub: We have to ask ourselves Anytime we do not understand something, does that mean that there is necessarily a meaning behind it?

In 'C', we have the basic underlying assumption in all of this, i.e. that there is actually a God. Now, God (as given to us by almost ALL religions), can be harsh and severe, but is ultimately benevolent. This is contradicted however with the state of the world He created, which is cruel, rutheless, etc. (Moreover, His supposed omnipotence logically means that He could have created the world differently, e.g. without cruelty.) Proponents of the existence of a God rush to explain the state of the world with various (but weak or untenable) arguments, such as that He wants to put the humans to the tests of temptation, etc. All those arguments reduce finally to "The Lord moves in mysterious ways!"

Therefore, elaborating on 'C' leads us to either (C1) indeed God does not exist, or (C2) God is the ultimate sadist!

I logically go with C1.