Where Did God Go For These People?

[Mrs. Utah]

I didnt see this posted yet. I apologize if it has.

Study shows prayer doesnt help heart surgery patients. If the study is accurate, doesnt that put a major dent in many people's concept of religon and prayer? Does the study, if accurate, provide evidence of a lack of God?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-03-30-prayer-study_x.htm?csp=34

[BCPVP]

No and no.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
I didnt see this posted yet. I apologize if it has.

Study shows prayer doesnt help heart surgery patients. If the study is accurate, doesnt that put a major dent in many people's concept of religon and prayer? Does the study, if accurate, provide evidence of a lack of God?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-03-30-prayer-study_x.htm?csp=34

[/ QUOTE ]
It certainly provides evidence against the efficacy of intercessionary prayer (and hence evidence against God as usually portrayed).

[yukoncpa]

Here's what Koenig of Duke University had to say on the matter: "There is no god in either the Christian, Jewish or Muslim scriptures that can be constrained to the point that they can be predicted. Within the Christian tradition, God would be expected to be concerned with a person's eternal salvation, he said, and "why would God change his plans for a particular person just because they're in a research study?"

[quinn]

Thou shalt not test the Lord thy God.

It is entirely plausible that God would abstain from helping people who pray not out of faith but unfaithful inquiry.

If a test like this showed a correlation between prayer and healing, it would suggest that the power of prayer lies in something besides the Christian God.

[DougShrapnel]

Yes, No.

[Sharkey]

[ QUOTE ]
If the study is accurate, doesnt that put a major dent in many people's concept of religon and prayer? Does the study, if accurate, provide evidence of a lack of God?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the studies indicating the contrary are accurate, what would that prove?

[DougShrapnel]

That prayer is effective.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the study is accurate, doesnt that put a major dent in many people's concept of religon and prayer? Does the study, if accurate, provide evidence of a lack of God?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the studies indicating the contrary are accurate, what would that prove?

[/ QUOTE ]
It would prove that intercessionary prayer worked.

[Mrs. Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's what Koenig of Duke University had to say on the matter: "There is no god in either the Christian, Jewish or Muslim scriptures that can be constrained to the point that they can be predicted. Within the Christian tradition, God would be expected to be concerned with a person's eternal salvation, he said, and "why would God change his plans for a particular person just because they're in a research study?"

[/ QUOTE ]Wow. That is quite silly. So, the defense against the ineffectivenss of prayer is that you can't measure it? How convenient. Can a scientist/theorist/doctor use the same argument for every single failed study - "Well, the results mean nothing because God would never be constrained so that the rules he created governing the universe would be measurable by a study. And of course, God would only be concerned a person's internal salvation and not a silly study. Of course, we need to suspend the whole incredibly retarded notion of God creating man so God can save him".

[Matt R.]

You're missing the point. He's saying that God and prayer are concerned with a person's "eternal salvation", and not concerned with the results of some pseudo-scientific study which picks random religious groups, tells them to pray for someone they've never even heard of until now in the name of some retarded study, and expect these actions to force "God's hand". I don't believe anyone has ever claimed you can measure "prayer" in a controlled, double-blind, white lab coat, statistically analyzed study. We're not measuring natural laws here, we're attempting to measure intervention by a deity. What makes you think that the creator of all of reality will conform to a random scientific study when those involved in the praying have no legitimate faith behind the praying? Even though they chose the people from religious groups, it's pretty obvious they would just be going through the motions if they're only praying for some study.

Basically, it is silly to try to measure anything involved with the intervention of God. It's not like his choices and thus the times when he intervenes are governed by some law we can measure. And even if the study did point to some divine intervention, it's pretty clear that those who did not want to believe would explain it away by probability and small sample size. It is pointless for either side of the debate.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe anyone has ever claimed you can measure "prayer" in a controlled, double-blind, white lab coat, statistically analyzed study. We're not measuring natural laws here, we're attempting to measure intervention by a deity. What makes you think that the creator of all of reality will conform to a random scientific study

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree entirely and conversely you should not use a god concept to deny scientific reality. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Matt R.]

Agreed. I believe someone posted a lecture from Hawking awhile back that says something along the lines of you shouldn't invoke God in a scientific study because then it ceases to be scientific (paraphrased.... most likely poorly /images/graemlins/smile.gif). If God does not exist, then it's clearly silly to invoke an argument involving God when explaining science. If he does exist, there's no way we can expect to predict his actions (and thus when/where/how he intervenes), so it's pointless to include the concept of God in scientific studies in this instance as well. We should stick to what we can measure.

[oneeye13]

[ QUOTE ]
patients who were told that study volunteers were praying for them were actually more likely to suffer a medical complication

[/ QUOTE ]

i would be mad as hell if a doctor told me they had people praying for me.

[yukoncpa]

“The prayer of faith shall save the sick”, James 5:14-15. A bible passage used by many parents to allow their children to suffer and die rather than taking them to a “scientific” medical facility.
I guess those Christian folk they culled for the study had no faith. Either that, or God ran as soon as he spotted that some devious person was trying to gain a better understanding of him, rather than fulfilling the promise he clearly made in the bible.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Thou shalt not test the Lord thy God.

It is entirely plausible that God would abstain from helping people who pray not out of faith but unfaithful inquiry.

If a test like this showed a correlation between prayer and healing, it would suggest that the power of prayer lies in something besides the Christian God.

[/ QUOTE ]

This struck me as funny.

So, God WOULD normally help these people (who don't even know that they're in a study), but he would choose not to in order to spite the people who are looking to see if prayer works?

Furthermore, with this logic we must conclude that God says, "Pray... but don't pay attention to see if it works... cause if you stop to see if I'm answering your prayers, I won't."

And regarding the OP questions... no study, no matter how thorough or conclusive, will ever change the mind of believers. In order to have faith, they had to throw logic out long time ago...

[yukoncpa]

"Thou shalt not test the Lord thy God."

Where are you coming up with this new commandment? A more appropriate passage for the OP is: “The prayer of faith shall save the sick”, James 5:14-15. For my comments on this; See below.

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe anyone has ever claimed you can measure "prayer" in a controlled, double-blind, white lab coat, statistically analyzed study.

[/ QUOTE ]Why not try it? What is there it to fear? Why does science attempt to find the answer to things and to constantly challenge assumptions and previous thinking where religion has a violent opposition to challenging the standard religious view? Why is the approach to religion so fundamentally different? Why doesnt religion attempt to seek the truth as opposed to simply trying to quickly dismiss everything that points out potential flaws in religions and beliefs in God?

[ QUOTE ]
We're not measuring natural laws here, we're attempting to measure intervention by a deity.

[/ QUOTE ]Does not a God supposedly control natural law? Thus, isnt any attempt to measure natural law attempting to measure an aspect of God?

[ QUOTE ]
And even if the study did point to some divine intervention, it's pretty clear that those who did not want to believe would explain it away by probability and small sample size. It is pointless for either side of the debate.

[/ QUOTE ]So, we should not be for the pursuit of truth because it is sometimes hard, messy, and ugly?

[surftheiop]

A bible passage used by many parents to allow their children to suffer and die rather than taking them to a “scientific” medical facility.

Thats just flat out untrue there might be one or two denominations that would believe something like this, to say Christains as a whole are like this would be like saying all whites are supporters of the KKK.

[yukoncpa]

I wasn't trying to be untrue or misleading. I never mentioned all Christians. But as you pointed out, some denominations, such as; The body of Christ, Bible Readers Fellowship, Christian Science, Some Jehova's Witnesses, etc., reject modern medicine because God promised, in the bible that the sick would be healed through prayer. These people all apparently have faith and are being mislead by the word of God. Not one child should have to suffer because his parents have faith in prayer over medical science. Studies such a the one Mrs. Utah posted will hopefully benefit some of these ignorant people.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
I didnt see this posted yet. I apologize if it has.

Study shows prayer doesnt help heart surgery patients. If the study is accurate, doesnt that put a major dent in many people's concept of religon and prayer? Does the study, if accurate, provide evidence of a lack of God?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-03-30-prayer-study_x.htm?csp=34

[/ QUOTE ]
finally!!!!! evidence there is no god!!!!! how was this not the top news story across the world?!?!?!?!?

[yukoncpa]

"finally!!!!! evidence there is no god!!!!! how was this not the top news story across the world?!?!?!?!?"


It's been on Fox news all day.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Thats just flat out untrue there might be one or two denominations that would believe something like this, to say Christains as a whole are like this would be like saying all whites are supporters of the KKK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or like saying that all christians believe in the resurection or the divinity of christ, or the virgin birth, or the literalkness of the bible... Wait, the whole concept of christians doesn't seem to stand up as a group...

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[surftheiop]

You seem bitter about something, did you have parents who bashed you with bibles or something ?

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
You seem bitter about something, did you have parents who bashed you with bibles or something ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I may be bitter, but I don't confuse love with inflicting suffering and I know the difference between the two.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didnt see this posted yet. I apologize if it has.

Study shows prayer doesnt help heart surgery patients. If the study is accurate, doesnt that put a major dent in many people's concept of religon and prayer? Does the study, if accurate, provide evidence of a lack of God?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-03-30-prayer-study_x.htm?csp=34

[/ QUOTE ]
It certainly provides evidence against the efficacy of intercessionary prayer (and hence evidence against God as usually portrayed).

[/ QUOTE ]
It provides evidence against some sort of god but isn't the traditional idea (or at least one traditional idea) that you pray for strength and guidance rather than direct intervention.

and this sort of prayer probably works but it working isn't evidence of god as periods of quiet reflection and a few deep breaths may well be beneficial.

chez

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
...that you pray for strength and guidance rather than direct intervention[ QUOTE ]
I have heard this said many times in my wasted 15 years of catholic schooling. However, isnt this just a silly argument to deflect those who point out prayer doesnt work?

person - "my prayers never work"
believer - "they are not supposed to"
person- "ah"

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...that you pray for strength and guidance rather than direct intervention[ QUOTE ]
I have heard this said many times in my wasted 15 years of catholic schooling. However, isnt this just a silly argument to deflect those who point out prayer doesnt work?

person - "my prayers never work"
believer - "they are not supposed to"
person- "ah"

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not defending it, just pointing out that experiments on intervention aren't relevent to at least one mainstream view of prayer.

chez

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not defending it, just pointing out that experiments on intervention aren't relevent to at least one mainstream view of prayer.

[/ QUOTE ]Please note - I was not assuming you were defending it. My comments were just directed at the idea.

[Emmitt2222]

Jesus prayed that the cup pass him by. He still died a horrific death. There is a theology of suffering, it can be redemptive. Suffering can be the quickest way to heaven. People today think that God abandons those who suffer when its the exact opposite.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus prayed that the cup pass him by. He still died a horrific death. There is a theology of suffering, it can be redemptive. Suffering can be the quickest way to heaven. People today think that God abandons those who suffer when its the exact opposite.

[/ QUOTE ]

As redemptive as telling someone to go and repeatedly hit their head against a wall because it will feel so good when they stop.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It certainly provides evidence against the efficacy of intercessionary prayer (and hence evidence against God as usually portrayed).

[/ QUOTE ]
It provides evidence against some sort of god but isn't the traditional idea (or at least one traditional idea) that you pray for strength and guidance rather than direct intervention.

and this sort of prayer probably works but it working isn't evidence of god as periods of quiet reflection and a few deep breaths may well be beneficial.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]
This "strength and guidance" view is certainly my belief in prayer (and I agree that it provides zero evidence). I dont think it's the traditional one though - as far as I can see, the "truth" of intercessionary prayer is a very widely held belief amongst theists.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
This "strength and guidance" view is certainly my belief in prayer (and I agree that it provides zero evidence). I dont think it's the traditional one though - as far as I can see, the "truth" of intercessionary prayer is a very widely held belief amongst theists

[/ QUOTE ]

My sentiments as well Bunny. I was afraid to post because I'm always wrong if I argue with Chezlaw. He must be thinking of mainstream Buddhists or maybe that's how the folks at the Church of England view prayer. But every Christian I've ever encountered believes in intercessionary prayer, indeed the belief is fervent. However, here up north, my sample size is small.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This "strength and guidance" view is certainly my belief in prayer (and I agree that it provides zero evidence). I dont think it's the traditional one though - as far as I can see, the "truth" of intercessionary prayer is a very widely held belief amongst theists

[/ QUOTE ]

My sentiments as well Bunny. I was afraid to post because I'm always wrong if I argue with Chezlaw. He must be thinking of mainstream Buddhists or maybe that's how the folks at the Church of England view prayer. But every Christian I've ever encountered believes in intercessionary prayer, indeed the belief is fervent. However, here up north, my sample size is small.

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/smile.gif well maybe I'll concede this one. I did say a traditional view not the traditional view.

Certainly the interventionists are a lot noisier as the other is a more private type of prayer. I wonder how much of the praying for intervention we hear about is just vocalising hope - like poker players on TV chanting the card that they want or praying 'c'mon just one time'

chez

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
I was afraid to post because I'm always wrong if I argue with Chezlaw.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know...he's scary isn't he?

[godBoy]

I think a lot of prayers that God does not answer are reducing an all powerful loving God to a magician. He doesn't exist for us to demand things of him.. These statistics only show what the numbers do, not much else.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
He doesn't exist for us to demand things of him

[/ QUOTE ]


whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Matthew 21:22

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a lot of prayers that God does not answer are reducing an all powerful loving God to a magician. He doesn't exist for us to demand things of him.. These statistics only show what the numbers do, not much else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes he is an evil powerful or an incompetent magician.. Your conception of god, that is, the one that condone/impose suffering (that you cannot see, I know) on its creatures.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
“The prayer of faith shall save the sick”, James 5:14-15. A bible passage used by many parents to allow their children to suffer and die rather than taking them to a “scientific” medical facility.
I guess those Christian folk they culled for the study had no faith. Either that, or God ran as soon as he spotted that some devious person was trying to gain a better understanding of him, rather than fulfilling the promise he clearly made in the bible.

[/ QUOTE ]
Notice your bible quote doesn't say "heal". Nice try.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“The prayer of faith shall save the sick”, James 5:14-15. A bible passage used by many parents to allow their children to suffer and die rather than taking them to a “scientific” medical facility.
I guess those Christian folk they culled for the study had no faith. Either that, or God ran as soon as he spotted that some devious person was trying to gain a better understanding of him, rather than fulfilling the promise he clearly made in the bible.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Notice your bible quote doesn't say "heal". Nice try.



[/ QUOTE ]

Woops, My bad reading comprehension. Would you be so kind as to inform those Christian communities that are needlessly making their sick and infirm suffer, that the bible doesn't really mean what it says, that prayer shouldn't be interpreted to help people on this planet - only in the after life. Boy, this is an eyeopener, all this time I thought Christians thought prayer actually works. Oh, but it does. In the afterlife, we'll be saved, as long as we pray.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
Woops, My bad reading comprehension. Would you be so kind as to inform those Christian communities that are needlessly making their sick and infirm suffer, that the bible doesn't really mean what it says, that prayer shouldn't be interpreted to help people on this planet - only in the after life. Boy, this is an eyeopener, all this time I thought Christians thought prayer actually works. Oh, but it does. In the afterlife, we'll be saved, as long as we pray.

[/ QUOTE ]
I do think prayer works. I also don't think God is a genie that grants wishes to people.

[AceofSpades]

[ QUOTE ]
I do think prayer works. I also don't think God is a genie that grants wishes to people.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, prayer works, but only in the sense that asking the dealer for a winning card works? An arbitary inconsistent fashion, that may sometimes work in one situation, but in others (that are less likely) doesn't work? If God is not consistent to his promises, then how can you tell God from coincidence?

If instead, you started praying for the winning card, instead of hoping aloud, how would you tell whether God was acting or it was simply the flucations of random chance? Would not small scale arbitary (favor without merit or reason) miracles happen? How is this different from real life?

[spaminator101]

tell me why God should do anything. God doesnt have to love everybody. Romans 9

Romans 9
God's Sovereign Choice
1I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.
6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[b] 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."[c]

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[i] 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."[k]

29It is just as Isaiah said previously:
"Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah."[l]

Israel's Unbelief
30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[m]

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
So, prayer works, but only in the sense that asking the dealer for a winning card works?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think so.

[ QUOTE ]
An arbitary inconsistent fashion, that may sometimes work in one situation, but in others (that are less likely) doesn't work?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think he answers every pray, but I don't think of him as a genie granting wishes. It may not be the answer you want...

[ QUOTE ]
If God is not consistent to his promises, then how can you tell God from coincidence?

[/ QUOTE ]
Prayer and promises are different things. Maybe you could clarify your point?

[thekiller]

This provides no prove at all.