Is this logical at all? Help settle an argument if it's possible.

[Villainaire]

I know very little about religion. My buddy is a Christian. He claims that God knows everything. Everything. Everything.

Think about it. Everything is a bunch, and as a matter of fact it's exactly everything.

Considering this is true (and that I could talk to God) God could answer every possible question I had. One of the questions could be about the day I die. If God knows the day I'm gonna die, then that means it's out of my control. If he knows EVERYTHING then I'm not really choosing what I'm doing because it's all predetermined.

Now if it's all predetermined I'm assuming it's all predetermined by God. Considering God is just, why would I ever be sent to Hell? God is controlling me in the first place, and he's making all of my decisions, so why would he force someone to make the "wrong" decisions to go to hell.

I'm confusing myself. This was on my mind ALL DAY LONG.

I'm not religious. Period. My mom's a Christian, and I've been to Church, but not since I was like 9. I've never read the Bible, but I'm interested.

Please point out what I'm missing.

[timotheeeee]

Cue the avalanche of rationalizations and pseudo-explanations of how god knows your exact life's path but your life is in no way predetermined.

[Villainaire]

[ QUOTE ]
Cue the avalanche of rationalizations and pseudo-explanations of how god knows your exact life's path but your life is in no way predetermined.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

[Phil153]

If free will exists, an omniscient God cannot. Anyone who can't see that is a [censored] moron.

Christianty is void without the concept of free will. Anyone who can't see that is also a moron.

[Sharkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Now if it's all predetermined I'm assuming it's all predetermined by God.

[/ QUOTE ]

There’s the mistake. It’s predetermined (from God’s timeless point of view, not yours) by free will.

Is a photograph of someone somewhere proof they couldn’t choose not to be there?

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]

If free will exists, an omniscient God cannot. Anyone who can't see that is a [censored] moron.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are some cute ways around that naturally, but I've never been able to grasp how God could change his mind and related issues, such as what it means to say, "God will decide". Not that I concern myself about it other than as a diversion from sudoku or SNG's.

luckyme

Hi Villainaire

I am an athiest, but I would suggest that you read a book or two that provides a basic introduction to the issues and apparent paradoxes of religious belief in general.

I wish I knew of a book that was objective (that is, neither pro-faith or anti-faith). Perhaps another poster can suggest one or two books, as the topic you raise is too big to be addressed here, but more importantly, it's something you need to read about in a structured way in order to help yourself frame in your mind what it all means.

There are no quick answers, nor should there be.

[Villainaire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now if it's all predetermined I'm assuming it's all predetermined by God.

[/ QUOTE ]

There’s the mistake. It’s predetermined (from God’s timeless point of view, not yours) by free will.

Is a photograph of someone somewhere proof they couldn’t choose not to be there?

[/ QUOTE ]

But it's not free will if God knows what I'm going to do before I do it. It's just SEEMS like free will. Correct?

[Sharkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now if it's all predetermined I'm assuming it's all predetermined by God.

[/ QUOTE ]

There’s the mistake. It’s predetermined (from God’s timeless point of view, not yours) by free will.

Is a photograph of someone somewhere proof they couldn’t choose not to be there?

[/ QUOTE ]

But it's not free will if God knows what I'm going to do before I do it. It's just SEEMS like free will. Correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It is free will, just like it is possible for you to know what you are going to choose to do.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
But it's not free will if God knows what I'm going to do before I do it. It's just SEEMS like free will. Correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

You could still have free will and a person looking back from the future would still know how you exercised it ... if you buy into that supposition. The tougher one is 'does god ( or a future-knowing entity) have free will' ?

If he knows how he is going to punish/reward/protect you in your situation today because he knows the future then he has no decision to make today and has turned into a deterministic automaton. If he has a decision to make because of your free will action then he doesn't know your future because he doesn't know his decision/reaction to your action.

ok, back to sukodo, luckyme

[Villainaire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But it's not free will if God knows what I'm going to do before I do it. It's just SEEMS like free will. Correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

You could still have free will and a person looking back from the future would still know how you exercised it ... if you buy into that supposition. The tougher one is 'does god ( or a future-knowing entity) have free will' ?

If he knows how he is going to punish/reward/protect you in your situation today because he knows the future then he has no decision to make today and has turned into a deterministic automaton. If he has a decision to make because of your free will action then he doesn't know your future because he doesn't know his decision/reaction to your action.

ok, back to sukodo, luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're wrong. It would seem like I have free will because I don't know anything different, but how can I have free will when the future is already written?

[Sharkey]

[ QUOTE ]
how can I have free will when the future is already written?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you wrote (your part of) it.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
It would seem like I have free will because I don't know anything different, but how can I have free will when the future is already written?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say the wormhole theorists are right and a form of time travel is possible using them. If a guy pops up from the future, he would know what you are about to do, but that doesn't mean you don't have free will in doing it.

It's not you that is choice-restricted, you can choose what you like. It's him that is restricted. He can only 'know' what you have actually chosen, you are not restricted to doing what he knows, he only knows it after the fact of your doing it, not before.

It doesn't work so well in the case of a meddling god because then we have an everchanging future and it's meaningless to talk about god knowing it ( else he couldn't meddle).

luckyme... I think I lost the sudoko game too.

[Villainaire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how can I have free will when the future is already written?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you wrote (your part of) it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I didn't write my part of it. Considering God is the creator, he wrote my part of it. He created all "parts" of it. If there's a 0% chance that I can change the future, how much control do I have over my own life? None.

If God knows EVERYTHING, that means that he knew everything possible about me back before I could even comprehend.

[Villainaire]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't work so well in the case of a meddling god because then we have an everchanging future and it's meaningless to talk about god knowing it ( else he couldn't meddle).


[/ QUOTE ]

Assume that this GOD in the thread is all-knowing.

[Sharkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how can I have free will when the future is already written?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you wrote (your part of) it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I didn't write my part of it. Considering God is the creator, he wrote my part of it. He created all "parts" of it. If there's a 0% chance that I can change the future, how much control do I have over my own life? None.

If God knows EVERYTHING, that means that he knew everything possible about me back before I could even comprehend.

[/ QUOTE ]

You’re making an unproven assumption: if someone, anyone for that matter, knows what you are going to do before you do it, then your doing it can’t be by free will.

[New001]

[ QUOTE ]
If free will exists, an omniscient God cannot. Anyone who can't see that is a [censored] moron.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're going to have to do better than that. Assume that you have two choices. You can make either one or the other. Some being (the Christian God, in this case) knows which one you will choose in advance, but does not interfere in any way with your choice. How is your choice not of your own free will?

[yukoncpa]

As I’ve debated with Notready in the past, I don’t believe that knowing everything entails knowing the future. I believe that there are many futures and no being knows any specific future. God could no more know the future than “know” that 2+2=5. If God knew his own future, than he would be bound by that future and I don’t think any Christian believes that God is bound by anything. I've read the bible and where does it say in the bible that God is omnipotent? And where does it define omnipotence as knowing the future?

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
Assume that this GOD in the thread is all-knowing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was. I'm making two claims -
1) god being all-knowing does not prevent you from exercising free will, just picture him as a visitor from the future.
2) an all-knowing god is a neutered god. He can't meddle in the present, or make choices, rulings, decisions, or he wouldn't know the future.

An all knowing entity is no bar to human free will, it is a bar to the entities free will.

luckyme

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
If God knew his own future, than he would be bound by that future and I don’t think any Christian believes that God is bound by anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmmmm... if he doesn't know what the results of his meddling are going to be, does that mean he's just bumbling along with the rest of us? Taking his best shot.

luckyme

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
An all knowing entity is no bar to human free will, it is a bar to the entities free will.



[/ QUOTE ]
Hi luckyme, please see my post above, I believe I'm elaborating on your points.

[Sharkey]

[ QUOTE ]
He can't meddle in the present, or make choices, rulings, decisions, or he wouldn't know the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does that follow?

[Villainaire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If free will exists, an omniscient God cannot. Anyone who can't see that is a [censored] moron.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're going to have to do better than that. Assume that you have two choices. You can make either one or the other. Some being (the Christian God, in this case) knows which one you will choose in advance, but does not interfere in any way with your choice. How is your choice not of your own free will?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I am the sum of every choice before the one at hand. This goes all the way back to the first choice I can remember. Considering God is responsible for EVERYTHING, he's indirectly responsible for my creation, so how do I have a choice? In reality I'm just going through the motions, but my brain sees it as choices and options.

[yukoncpa]

Hi Luckyme,

He’s the ultimate collapser of the wave function. He’s not bumbling along with the rest of us; his wisdom surpasses the wisdom of every being in the universe.

[Sharkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Because I am the sum of every choice before the one at hand. This goes all the way back to the first choice I can remember. Considering God is responsible for EVERYTHING, he's indirectly responsible for my creation, so how do I have a choice? In reality I'm just going through the motions, but my brain sees it as choices and options.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that argument is against any free will whatever, wherever you think you came from.

[Villainaire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because I am the sum of every choice before the one at hand. This goes all the way back to the first choice I can remember. Considering God is responsible for EVERYTHING, he's indirectly responsible for my creation, so how do I have a choice? In reality I'm just going through the motions, but my brain sees it as choices and options.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that argument is against any free will whatever, wherever you think you came from.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how it's considered free will, when every choice I make is the "right one" considering God knew it was coming. No matter how it feels that I'm doing what I want, I'm just doing something else that was already predetermined. I could jump outta my window, but... nope, knew it was gonna happen. Since I'm only choosing the "right" (or wrong) answers with everything I do, how is there another option? I may feel like there's another option, but in reality no matter what I do is already DONE.

So if there was a diagram involved, it wouldn't be a web of events, it would just be a single line because there are no options because God knew everything I was going to do in my life before I even took my first breath.

[Sharkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because I am the sum of every choice before the one at hand. This goes all the way back to the first choice I can remember. Considering God is responsible for EVERYTHING, he's indirectly responsible for my creation, so how do I have a choice? In reality I'm just going through the motions, but my brain sees it as choices and options.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that argument is against any free will whatever, wherever you think you came from.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how it's considered free will, when every choice I make is the "right one" considering God knew it was coming. No matter how it feels that I'm doing what I want, I'm just doing something else that was already predetermined. I could jump outta my window, but... nope, knew it was gonna happen. Since I'm only choosing the "right" (or wrong) answers with everything I do, how is there another option? I may feel like there's another option, but in reality no matter what I do is already DONE.

So if there was a diagram involved, it wouldn't be a web of events, it would just be a single line because there are no options because God knew everything I was going to do in my life before I even took my first breath.

[/ QUOTE ]

God knowing something is coming doesn’t force you to do anything. He knows what you are going to choose BECAUSE you are going to choose it, not the other way around.

[Villainaire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because I am the sum of every choice before the one at hand. This goes all the way back to the first choice I can remember. Considering God is responsible for EVERYTHING, he's indirectly responsible for my creation, so how do I have a choice? In reality I'm just going through the motions, but my brain sees it as choices and options.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that argument is against any free will whatever, wherever you think you came from.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how it's considered free will, when every choice I make is the "right one" considering God knew it was coming. No matter how it feels that I'm doing what I want, I'm just doing something else that was already predetermined. I could jump outta my window, but... nope, knew it was gonna happen. Since I'm only choosing the "right" (or wrong) answers with everything I do, how is there another option? I may feel like there's another option, but in reality no matter what I do is already DONE.

So if there was a diagram involved, it wouldn't be a web of events, it would just be a single line because there are no options because God knew everything I was going to do in my life before I even took my first breath.

[/ QUOTE ]

God knowing something is coming doesn’t force you to do anything. He knows what you are going to choose BECAUSE you are going to choose it, not the other way around.

[/ QUOTE ]

From his perspective it shouldn't look like a choice though. It should just be what I'm doing next.

Here's a terrible example of how I'm thinking.

I'm a contestant on a game show and I can choose Prize A or Prize B

Prize A: Drive off in a new car.
Prize B: College Scholarship

I'm predestined to choose prize B.

So I "choose" prize B.

Could I have chosen prize A?

NO. The reason is because it wasn't predestined. How could I have chose prize A? Go against God's will? My future is already written. At the time, I may feel like I could've chosen prize A, but in reality there was a 0% chance of me picking prize A.

Prize A might as well be an illusion.

[Pauwl]

This was quite a while ago, but it might help:
Old Sklansky Post about Omnipotence and seing the future (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4396283&page=0&fpart=all &vc=1)

[cambraceres]

Human perception is decieving thing, because it is linked with our creative minds. We could indeed perceive situations to contain choice, but God's perceptions are not bound by the same information barrier. That's our main argument, does God's lack of an information barrier make him responsible for what happens?

Although he may be conscious of every consideration and decision we make, this does not mean he is in control of them. Some would say we are simply going through motions, but what is wrong with that? We are going through motions from God's perspective, but you are not in God's perspective.
The clever complications of time and being play out for us in real time, and regardless of a sadist observer we still weigh our choices, do we not?

Cambraceres

[Aver-aging]

Psst... guys, he's the cosmic AC in Isaac Asimov's "The Final Question".

Sheesh. Duh.

[Taraz]

This isn't a response to anyone in particular but . . .

Isn't God supposed to be outside of time? I mean if time is a feature of this universe and not of God (or God's universe or whatever you want to call it), then that solves to problem of God knowing his own future. He has no future, no past and no present as we perceive them.

I'm not sure if this solves the problem of your free will or not though.

[cambraceres]

see my earlier response

[Central Limit]

In the Old Testament, God is neither all powerfull nor all-knowing.

God makes bad choices that he later regrets. Example: "God Regrets His Choice of Saul as King" Samuel II.

God rests after he exerts himself. Example: "On the seventh day, God rested."

God asks questions of people. Example:

God: "Cain, where is your brother, Abel?"
Cain "I am not my brother's keeper."
God: "What have you done? Your brothers blood from the ground cries up to me."

(Well, in the Cain and Abel case, God somehow knws the answer after Cain lies to him. But, it doesn't seem like a trick question. Hmmm, maybe I need a better example than this one.)

The God of the Bible is neither all-knowing nor all-powerful.

[daryn]

seems pretty clear the point they are trying to make villainaire, yet you cannot comprehend it for some reason.

[bunny]

I used to perform occasionally as a close-up magician. There was one trick that amazed me more than the audience. They are presented with 5 cards - QH, AD, 6C, 2H, 9D and asked to select one purely mentally (then there's lots of guff about concentrating, jokes, blah blah...) What was extraordinary was everyone picked the 9D - it never failed for me (they try and outsmart me and pick something they think I think they're not going to think...)

The point being I know they're going to pick the 9D yet they have free will. Why is this different from God? (Obviously he is presumed to have 100% accuracy - although mine never failed, I'm sure it would some of the time. I would still count it as knowledge though, it was quite eery).

[Philo]

Even if everyone always picked the 9D, I don't think you knew they would. I would have to hear what your justification was for believing they would pick the 9D before I would consider seriously the claim that you knew they would.

And I'm not sure why everyone would always pick the 9D--what's the explanation for that oddity? (I didn't pick the 9D, fwiw)

[HLMencken]

Santa Claus can fly around the whole world and deliver presents to every boy and girl in one night.

Give that similar thought.

[Copernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
Santa Claus can fly around the whole world and deliver presents to every boy and girl in one night.

Give that similar thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Santa rocks, but if the Easter Bunny sees his shadow and it is longer than his height he will know it is afternoon, and whilst marveling at the efficiency of his own body telling time, will cause Keith Richards to rise from the dead.

What do you mean he isnt dead? hmmmmm...maybe there are miracles.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if everyone always picked the 9D, I don't think you knew they would. I would have to hear what your justification was for believing they would pick the 9D before I would consider seriously the claim that you knew they would.

And I'm not sure why everyone would always pick the 9D--what's the explanation for that oddity? (I didn't pick the 9D, fwiw)

[/ QUOTE ]
I doubt it's ever been studied - the theory I was told (and accepted) was that they rule out everything else. I left out some details of course - first you give the impression you've just picked 5 cards at random, second you only pick men (on the premise they are more likely to be uncooperative, third you tell them you are going to make them choose a card and influence their mind...) The theory was they ruled out the picture card, the only black card and the two extremes in an attempt to avoid the card you want them to pick - settling on the 9D as the least innocuous.

Of course you have an out in case they pick something else (a joke at their expense, usually) and I fully expected to have to use this. It was really weird though - I literally never had to (I would guess in around 10-15 performances).

As an aside there are a bunch of tricks like this - apparently if you ask a woman to pick a card at random around 30% of the time she will pick the QH. I know a guy with a strong bit in his routine that is built around this - 70% of the time he has a 2 or 3 minute joke about his incompetence 30% of the time he has a killer trick.

Perhaps you can exclude it as knowledge (after all there is clearly not going to be a 100% success rate) whereas God is claimed to have infallible knowledge. I still dont see the problem in knowing what someone will choose in advance without impinging on their free will to make that choice (and I dont think I'm a moron, censored or otherwise /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
If free will exists, an omniscient God cannot. Anyone who can't see that is a [censored] moron.

Christianty is void without the concept of free will. Anyone who can't see that is also a moron.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can see the second but not the first. Can you elaborate on why you believe the existence of free will implies there is no omniscient God?

[Felix_Nietzsche]

Since God is omniscent(sp?) means all-knowing) he should know everything including the future.

The religious belief that God knows everything is called predetermism. If I remember correctly this a central theme of the presbyterians(sp?). Therefore, he knows who is going to hell and who is not before they are ever born. This is direct conflict with the concept of free will.

A religious person can not logically claim that god is all-knowing without ruling out the doctrine of free will.

[Villainaire]

[ QUOTE ]
Since God is omniscent(sp?) means all-knowing) he should know everything including the future.

The religious belief that God knows everything is called predetermism. If I remember correctly this a central theme of the presbyterians(sp?). Therefore, he knows who is going to hell and who is not before they are ever born. This is direct conflict with the concept of free will.

A religious person can not logically claim that god is all-knowing without ruling out the doctrine of free will.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was trying to say, and is the conflict I have with Christianity.

[FredBoots]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If free will exists, an omniscient God cannot. Anyone who can't see that is a [censored] moron.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you elaborate on why you believe the existence of free will implies there is no omniscient God?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've posted this elsewhere, but the argument is simple:
1. If the world is deterministic, there is no free will.
2. If someone can predict your future, the world is deterministic.
3. God can predict your future.
Therefore, if God can predict your future, there is no free will.

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
1. If the world is deterministic, there is no free will.


[/ QUOTE ] Please discuss how a deterministic universe forbids the emergence of free will. Or please show how order cannot arise out of choas. You can't have it both ways axiomatically. Either things can arise with entirely different properties than it's make up. Order from chaos, or things cannot possibly arise with entirely different properties than its make up: life, conciousness, free will.

[ QUOTE ]
If someone can predict your future, the world is deterministic.


[/ QUOTE ] Please explain to me how a being living outside of time views the universe. In regards to how the future is different than the present or past to this being?

[ QUOTE ]
God can predict your future.


[/ QUOTE ] Please explain how this is any different than God can see the present?

It just seems that this arguement isn't as good as people think it is. I mentioned before that with a QM aspect, God's viewing of the "future" is the cause of that future, would put some serious doubt on freewill. But most times I hear this arguement it is not brought up in that fashion.

[FredBoots]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. If the world is deterministic, there is no free will.


[/ QUOTE ] Please discuss how a deterministic universe forbids the emergence of free will.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your actions are caused by the actions that preceded them, then you have no free will.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If someone can predict your future, the world is deterministic.


[/ QUOTE ] Please explain to me how a being living outside of time views the universe. In regards to how the future is different than the present or past to this being?

[/ QUOTE ]

If your future can be “determined”, in whatever method you like (“living outside time”, whatever), then the world is deterministic.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
God can predict your future.


[/ QUOTE ] Please explain how this is any different than God can see the present?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn’t say it was different.

[ QUOTE ]
God's viewing of the "future" is the cause of that future, would put some serious doubt on freewill.

[/ QUOTE ]

God doesn’t have to “cause” the future, only “know” the future, to eliminate free will. It is the fact that the future can be known that eliminates free will.

[Central Limit]

[ QUOTE ]

I've posted this elsewhere, but the argument is simple:
1. If the world is deterministic, there is no free will.
2. If someone can predict your future, the world is deterministic.
3. God can predict your future.
Therefore, if God can predict your future, there is no free will.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Death is inevitable.
2. I predict that you will die.
3. I have just predicted your future.
4. Therefore, there is no free will.

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
If your actions are caused by the actions that preceded them, then you have no free will.


[/ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that order cannot arise out of chaos?

Higher level thought processes (conciousness) are the cause of alot of actions. Sometimes lower level thought processes (unconciousness) are the cause of actions. Sometimes the two are in conflict, as to the right cause of action. Out of the conflicting recomendations of correct action, free will can emerge. Considering that a major input into the equations is self, free will is possiblity even if everything in the universe is deterministic.

[ QUOTE ]
If your future can be “determined”, in whatever method you like (“living outside time”, whatever), then the world is deterministic.

[/ QUOTE ] All I'm trying to do is to get you to see that a God that could see the present, would be able to see the future in the exact same fashion as it would make no difference to him. We create this problem about god and think we have a good argument about his existance. But instead on further examination we just see that our arguement is severly limited by our perspectives.

[ QUOTE ]
God doesn’t have to “cause” the future, only “know” the future, to eliminate free will. The fact that the future can be known eliminates free will.

[/ QUOTE ] God "knowing" what you freely will is not a barrier to free will, any more than you not being able to change the past is.

It's a bad arguement caused by a severly limited perspective.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Since God is omniscent(sp?) means all-knowing) he should know everything including the future.

The religious belief that God knows everything is called predetermism. If I remember correctly this a central theme of the presbyterians(sp?). Therefore, he knows who is going to hell and who is not before they are ever born. This is direct conflict with the concept of free will.

A religious person can not logically claim that god is all-knowing without ruling out the doctrine of free will.

[/ QUOTE ]
Omniscience doesnt imply predeterminism. There are other religious interpretations beside this one.

The point being God knowing what you will do doesnt imply he is going to make you do it, just that he knows what you will freely choose before you make that choice.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
I've posted this elsewhere, but the argument is simple:
1. If the world is deterministic, there is no free will.
2. If someone can predict your future, the world is deterministic.
3. God can predict your future.
Therefore, if God can predict your future, there is no free will.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont agree that your second premise is true. It implies you are predicting the future based on the current state of the universe (and playing out the deterministic rules in advance to see where you end up).

The conception of God's omniscience is not this at all - he sees the past, present and future at the same time - he doesnt see the present and then predict what the future will be.

[Central Limit]

[ QUOTE ]

The point being God knowing what you will do doesnt imply he is going to make you do it, just that he knows what you will freely choose before you make that choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would God make you do something that he already knows you're going to do? There would be no reason to.

Since he already knows what you're going to do, he can't make you do anything else, either, since you have to follow the course he already knows you will follow.

So, you're free to choose this course which you must choose and from which you can not deviate.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would God make you do something that he already knows you're going to do? There would be no reason to.

Since he already knows what you're going to do, he can't make you do anything else, either, since you have to follow the course he already knows you will follow.

So, you're free to choose this course which you must choose and from which you can not deviate.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can choose to deviate - I think there is an error here in assuming God exists in time. He experiences all times at once.

When I see a pendulum I can predict what will happen next because it has no free will and has to follow deterministic laws. I cant predict what you will say next because you dont and I have to wait and see. If I could predict what you were going to say then you would have no free will - I accept this argument but this involves me predicting your actions not knowing.

Grant me the power to know what you will say without having any required knowledge of your current state (in violation of physical laws) and I dont see how you have suddenly lost your free will - it's just that I know what you are about to choose before you go through the act of making the choice. This is the reason I find the argument unconvincing, because God is claimed to exist outside of the physical universe but the argument seems to me to be placing limits on the omniscient being consistent with being existant within the physical universe.

[Sharkey]

Agreed. There is no contradiction between the following propositions:

1. The causes of your next action are entirely your own.

2. God knows everything about you.

[Philo]

I see. I can buy the 9D being picked in 10-15 performances without exception, with the rest of the story in place (whatever the whole rest of the story is, I take it that there are strong psychological grounds, given the setup, that will usually result in the 9D being picked). I've seen other 'mind' tricks that work on the same premise.

I agree with you, btw, that foreknowledge (even god's infallible divine foreknowledge) is not incompatible with free will (though I'm not sure at all that I believe in free will in the full-blown philosophical sense).

[bunny]

The 9D trick was really quite eery to perform (far more impressive to me than them /images/graemlins/tongue.gif). Despite the theory, I was not expecting it to be accurate so often. On the other hand, getting women to pick a card has never resulted in a QH for me, so I cant provide any evidence supporting the claim that it is more likely than other cards.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]

1. The causes of your next action are entirely your own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm... so you're not into praying for god to prevent the kidnapper from hurting her? .... Or giving god credit for the hunter showing up in time to save the boy in the well. interesting, I'd have suspected otherwise. shows ta go ya.

luckyme

[Sharkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

1. The causes of your next action are entirely your own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm... so you're not into praying for god to prevent the kidnapper from hurting her? .... Or giving god credit for the hunter showing up in time to save the boy in the well. interesting, I'd have suspected otherwise. shows ta go ya.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I didn’t mean those things. There isn’t any contradiction between free will and an influence by God, as long as the final choice is one’s own.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
There isn’t any contradiction between free will and an influence by God, as long as the final choice is one’s own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'm trying to grasp your view of this. Let's take the hunter and the boy in the well. Which is 'The Final Choice' for the hunter?
- deciding to go hunting that day.
- hunting in the valley rather than the ridge
- going up near the old mine.
- turning left at the big stump.
- stopping for a smoke.
- myriad other choices.

I can't see why any one of the bizillion choices we make in an hour is 'the final choice'. I don't see how we can have free will if god mucks with any of them. How often a day would he be doing this?

You seem to be saying 'we have free will, unless we don't', but I'll be interested in your clarification,

thanks, luckyme

[Sharkey]

The course the hunter’s life will follow is determined by two things: his circumstances and his choices. Controlling only the first one is enough to influence the hunter in a particular direction.

[FredBoots]

[ QUOTE ]

The conception of God's omniscience is not this at all - he sees the past, present and future at the same time - he doesnt see the present and then predict what the future will be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please cite a bible passage that implies God sees past, present and future the same. If God is outside time, then human history would look like a book. Why would God talk to people? Do you talk to books?

[cambraceres]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The conception of God's omniscience is not this at all - he sees the past, present and future at the same time - he doesnt see the present and then predict what the future will be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please cite a bible passage that implies God sees past, present and future the same. If God is outside time, then human history would look like a book. Why would God talk to people? Do you talk to books?

[/ QUOTE ]

Many timorous college philosophers and haggard Christian theologists like to say that God functions outside of time because it so tidly deals with two troublesome issues, that can probably be simplified into one by a greater mind than mine. The first issue is the beaten to death free will problem. If God knows all that was and will be from our perspective, then free will is moot from his. The other problem is a related one, that being omniscient, God by definition can have no information gaps in whatever rationality he may posess, but information gaps are intrinsic to all temporal systems.

But if you say God hangs above and outside of these obscene places where "the cheap acid of mere logical acumen" may touch him, then all is well and the crop will come in this year.

Cambraceres

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The conception of God's omniscience is not this at all - he sees the past, present and future at the same time - he doesnt see the present and then predict what the future will be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please cite a bible passage that implies God sees past, present and future the same. If God is outside time, then human history would look like a book. Why would God talk to people? Do you talk to books?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont have a bible passage to quote you (though it may exist). I dont like to back up my arguments on a philosophy forum by citing theological sources (except for the purposes of clarifying my position which doesnt seem to be needed here). The point is God is conceived to be outside time by theists (not exclusively christians) so claiming God is "predicting" the future and therefore we dont have free will is not arguing against the theist conception of God.

With regard to why would God talk to people it seems this is again theology, I cant think of a way to argue for why he would. It doesnt seem unreasonable that he may choose to do this though - for example, if he cares about us and talking to us makes us grow closer to him (which from a theist perspective is a good thing) then he may well interfere in the world.

With regard to do I talk to books, the answer is obviously no - one difference being the books (or the characters in them) are not sentient beings.

[bunny]

I think the strongest argument for believing God exists outside of time is that he is claimed to have created the universe including time. It is difficult to imagine how he could do that if he was temporally limited the way we are.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
With regard to why would God talk to people it seems this is again theology, I cant think of a way to argue for why he would. It doesnt seem unreasonable that he may choose to do this though - for example, if he cares about us and talking to us makes us grow closer to him (which from a theist perspective is a good thing) then he may well interfere in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

But doesn't the merry-go-round have to stop somewhere? If he knows the future and what we are going to do ( free will or no) why is he talking to me? It can't change the future that he claims to already know, or he doesn't really know it. He can't have it both ways.

luckyme

[Sharkey]

[ QUOTE ]
If he knows the future and what we are going to do ( free will or no) why is he talking to me? It can't change the future that he claims to already know, or he doesn't really know it.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you do now causes the future, not vice versa.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
But doesn't the merry-go-round have to stop somewhere? If he knows the future and what we are going to do ( free will or no) why is he talking to me? It can't change the future that he claims to already know, or he doesn't really know it. He can't have it both ways.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the point is that there are two ways - God's perspective and our perspective. So it certainly doesnt make any difference to him - but I am limited by existing within time. So I need to experience things sequentially and I need the stimuli and inputs in my past to enable me to make a choice in the present which will influence my future. There is no inherent contradiction in God looking at all three of these stages at once (and participating in each of those choices all-at-once from his perspective but sequentially from ours).

I think the view of human history as a book is a useful metaphor, although you have to allow the characters in the book to be responsible for writing some of it too to correspond to my view. God as the ultimate author and reader can write a bit in at page 1, page 10, the final page, whatever he wants. We also make choices which change how the book unfolds (from our perspective) and which we can freely decide on - he just sees all of these at once.

[bunny]

Another way to respond to your post perhaps is to say that if he doesnt act then the future will be different. He makes his choices "all-at-once" as well as seeing ours.

The ultimate problem I think is in attributing temporal existence to God. This is not the theist position.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
Another way to respond to your post perhaps is to say that if he doesnt act then the future will be different. He makes his choices "all-at-once" as well as seeing ours.

[/ QUOTE ]

How would choice operate in an 'all at once' frame? There would be no future to alter so what would the choice be about? The 'future' he's already seen? But then he has no choice to make.

The book analogy roughly illustrates the issue. There can't be "the book" to see "all at once" if it is still being modified, in any time frame.

It's a concept that only seems useful if you look at it in separate pieces and don't consider the recursive effect, for example.

luckyme

[bunny]

Well I dont know what else to say - I think the problem is caused by inadequacies of language and the difficulty in conceiving of something existing outside of time. When you say "the future he's already seen" there is a subjective timeline implied - that he has seen the future and subsequently makes his choice. I think he sees all of creation, makes all choices, watches all of our choices and sees the ramifications of everyone's choices all at once. To us, choice logically precedes consequence because we experience time linearly. The theist conception of God is that he doesnt - this is hard to imagine but is not logically inconsistent.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
The book analogy roughly illustrates the issue. There can't be "the book" to see "all at once" if it is still being modified, in any time frame.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again it is language - the book's characters are the ones experiencing the time. The reader doesnt - they can flip to any page and see what the characters are experiencing as the present. Time flows for those in the book but not for the reader - they can read a series of events in any order they choose.

[ElaineMonster]

Since when is religion logical?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because I am the sum of every choice before the one at hand. This goes all the way back to the first choice I can remember. Considering God is responsible for EVERYTHING, he's indirectly responsible for my creation, so how do I have a choice? In reality I'm just going through the motions, but my brain sees it as choices and options.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that argument is against any free will whatever, wherever you think you came from.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how it's considered free will, when every choice I make is the "right one" considering God knew it was coming. No matter how it feels that I'm doing what I want, I'm just doing something else that was already predetermined. I could jump outta my window, but... nope, knew it was gonna happen. Since I'm only choosing the "right" (or wrong) answers with everything I do, how is there another option? I may feel like there's another option, but in reality no matter what I do is already DONE.

So if there was a diagram involved, it wouldn't be a web of events, it would just be a single line because there are no options because God knew everything I was going to do in my life before I even took my first breath.

[/ QUOTE ]

God knowing something is coming doesn’t force you to do anything. He knows what you are going to choose BECAUSE you are going to choose it, not the other way around.

[/ QUOTE ]

From his perspective it shouldn't look like a choice though. It should just be what I'm doing next.

Here's a terrible example of how I'm thinking.

I'm a contestant on a game show and I can choose Prize A or Prize B

Prize A: Drive off in a new car.
Prize B: College Scholarship

I'm predestined to choose prize B.

So I "choose" prize B.

Could I have chosen prize A?

NO. The reason is because it wasn't predestined. How could I have chose prize A? Go against God's will? My future is already written. At the time, I may feel like I could've chosen prize A, but in reality there was a 0% chance of me picking prize A.

Prize A might as well be an illusion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Youv'e got a point if God "told" you which door to pick, but if he didn't, then you don't. Period.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
To us, choice logically precedes consequence because we experience time linearly. The theist conception of God is that he doesnt - this is hard to imagine but is not logically inconsistent.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not logically inconsistant because it's not logical at all. Logic, like time, requires a cause-effect progession, we say, "that doesn't follow".

I'm not having any problem with my making a free will choice, god being aware of it in the 'all at once' view. Not unlike a worm-hole traveller would be. I'm trying to flesh-out the spinoffs of this concept.

a) what does it mean to 'make a choice' for a being that sees all at once. What would change? Choice seems to require cause-effect. etc.

b) You mention the reader going in any direction he wants and writing stuff in. If he writes in my grandfather killed as a boy, what happens to me. and to those pages of the book that 'were' there. It seems meaningless to talk of a book, or "all at once" if "ALL" can change.
When you use the phrase ' it's god's decision now' what does that mean... god has already made the decision in this 'all at once' view. ?? No? he doesn't know what he decided, or ...

iow, it's not issues around my free will in a timeless god that is the problem it's her having it and making decisions that cause changes in a 'allness' that he already knows all about.

hope that helps, luckyme

[FredBoots]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The conception of God's omniscience is not this at all - he sees the past, present and future at the same time - he doesnt see the present and then predict what the future will be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please cite a bible passage that implies God sees past, present and future the same. If God is outside time, then human history would look like a book. Why would God talk to people? Do you talk to books?

[/ QUOTE ]


I dont have a bible passage to quote you (though it may exist). I dont like to back up my arguments on a philosophy forum by citing theological sources (except for the purposes of clarifying my position which doesnt seem to be needed here). The point is God is conceived to be outside time by theists (not exclusively christians) so claiming God is "predicting" the future and therefore we dont have free will is not arguing against the theist conception of God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thousands of people agreeing that God is outside time doesn’t make it true. This is pretty shaky ground to base your conviction on.

[ QUOTE ]
With regard to why would God talk to people it seems this is again theology, I cant think of a way to argue for why he would. It doesnt seem unreasonable that he may choose to do this though - for example, if he cares about us and talking to us makes us grow closer to him (which from a theist perspective is a good thing) then he may well interfere in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

If God is outside time, then he can’t interfere in the world. The world history was written when God created the universe. How can “characters in the book to be responsible for writing some of it too” when God already wrote it. Are you saying that I can rewrite something a God wrote? That’s pretty incredible.

I only see two choices: human history was written when the universe was created, or it wasn’t. The first eliminates free will, and the second means God isn’t omnipotent. Personally, I’d just scrap the omnipotent God to keep free will and concede God doesn’t know how your life will unfold.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The conception of God's omniscience is not this at all - he sees the past, present and future at the same time - he doesnt see the present and then predict what the future will be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please cite a bible passage that implies God sees past, present and future the same. If God is outside time, then human history would look like a book. Why would God talk to people? Do you talk to books?

[/ QUOTE ]


I dont have a bible passage to quote you (though it may exist). I dont like to back up my arguments on a philosophy forum by citing theological sources (except for the purposes of clarifying my position which doesnt seem to be needed here). The point is God is conceived to be outside time by theists (not exclusively christians) so claiming God is "predicting" the future and therefore we dont have free will is not arguing against the theist conception of God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thousands of people agreeing that God is outside time doesn’t make it true. This is pretty shaky ground to base your conviction on.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am not trying to justify my belief - nor am I trying to persuade you that there is a good reason to think this way. (If I had cited a Bible passage would you think it was any less shaky grounds for belief?)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With regard to why would God talk to people it seems this is again theology, I cant think of a way to argue for why he would. It doesnt seem unreasonable that he may choose to do this though - for example, if he cares about us and talking to us makes us grow closer to him (which from a theist perspective is a good thing) then he may well interfere in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

If God is outside time, then he can’t interfere in the world. The world history was written when God created the universe. How can “characters in the book to be responsible for writing some of it too” when God already wrote it. Are you saying that I can rewrite something a God wrote? That’s pretty incredible.

I only see two choices: human history was written when the universe was created, or it wasn’t. The first eliminates free will, and the second means God isn’t omnipotent. Personally, I’d just scrap the omnipotent God to keep free will and concede God doesn’t know how your life will unfold.

[/ QUOTE ]
From his perspective the universe is created, the universe ends, he acts in various ways, other free-willed being act in various ways, physical laws play themselves out, etc...all this in-an-instant. From our perspective time flows and cause precedes effect. The original argument is only true if God predicts the future, I dont think you have established why simply knowing a choice means it is not free - your argument for that seems to hinge on God knowing what will happen at some time in the future. I would claim God's viewpoint doesnt include a future.

Perhaps another point will explain what I mean - I know the choices I made yesterday with 100% certainty. The fact I know what I chose yesterday doesnt mean it wasnt a free choice. God makes no distinction between past, present and future - all moments are identical to him, just with one parameter changed - why does simply knowing any of them make the choice no longer free?

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To us, choice logically precedes consequence because we experience time linearly. The theist conception of God is that he doesnt - this is hard to imagine but is not logically inconsistent.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not logically inconsistant because it's not logical at all. Logic, like time, requires a cause-effect progession, we say, "that doesn't follow".

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that we say it - but that's again a flaw in our language. Logic doesnt have to be phrased with respect to time. eg "A implies B" (or B follows from A) can be expressed as "if the facts which are necessary for statement A to be true exist then the facts which are necessary for statement B to be true also exist"

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not having any problem with my making a free will choice, god being aware of it in the 'all at once' view. Not unlike a worm-hole traveller would be. I'm trying to flesh-out the spinoffs of this concept.

a) what does it mean to 'make a choice' for a being that sees all at once. What would change? Choice seems to require cause-effect. etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont see this requirement. God reaches out and changes the world at time 0,5,15,200,whatever... there are consequences to all of those acts and he sees them all-at-once. It's hard to imagine what it would be like to live like that (probably impossible for us I would guess) but I dont see any inherent contradiction.

[ QUOTE ]
b) You mention the reader going in any direction he wants and writing stuff in. If he writes in my grandfather killed as a boy, what happens to me. and to those pages of the book that 'were' there. It seems meaningless to talk of a book, or "all at once" if "ALL" can change.
When you use the phrase ' it's god's decision now' what does that mean... god has already made the decision in this 'all at once' view. ?? No? he doesn't know what he decided, or ...

[/ QUOTE ]
The "writing in your grandfather dying" choice is clearly not one God made. He could have and then the world would be a different place (with different people making different free choices). I dont think it changes what "was" there - I dont think he reads it all, then changes a bit, then reads it again, then changes other bits - I think it all happened at once. With regard to "it's God's choice now" I am using human language and am speaking sloppily. God sees everything all at once - that doesnt mean the future isnt unknown to me and that his choices happen sequentially to me - so I could see him "predicting" the future, but that wouldnt be how he experienced it.

[ QUOTE ]
iow, it's not issues around my free will in a timeless god that is the problem it's her having it and making decisions that cause changes in a 'allness' that he already knows all about.

hope that helps, luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this highlights my view that it is a language problem - "making decisions that cause changes in a 'allness' that he already knows all about." inherent in this view is that he knows the "allness" and then makes changes to the world.

[bunny]

Hi luckyme

I had another thought that might clarify my position - I dont know what position you take with regard to the meaning of "possibly true" but I subscribe to the possible worlds account for this. Briefly this postulates the existence of uncountable numbers of possible worlds - ways the world might be, one of which is the actual world (the one we inhabit). Something being possibly true means there exists a possible world in which the statement is true. It is necessarily true if it exists in all worlds and is true if it exists in our world (the actual world).

It seems that when I am faced with a choice (say whether to go to work tomorrow or sleep in) both are possible because there is one possible world in which I go to work and another in which I sleep in. One way to distinguish the actual world from the possible world that didnt eventuate is after the event - based on which choice I make. Another distinguishing feature will be God's knowledge. In the one in which I sleep in, God will know I am going to choose to sleep in. In the one in which I go to work, God will know I am going to choose to go to work.

I hope it is clear I'm not attempting to persuade you to accept my view, but rather attempting to point out it is not inherently contradictory.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope it is clear I'm not attempting to persuade you to accept my view, but rather attempting to point out it is not inherently contradictory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all, I appreciate the time you're taking trying to express it well, hopefully my pestering is shaping it for you too. I was wondering if you'd be attracted to the infinite universes concept, thanks for mentioning it.

No need to go farther. luckyme

[Sharkey]

[ QUOTE ]
How would choice operate in an 'all at once' frame? There would be no future to alter so what would the choice be about? The 'future' he's already seen? But then he has no choice to make.

The book analogy roughly illustrates the issue. There can't be "the book" to see "all at once" if it is still being modified, in any time frame.

[/ QUOTE ]

To use a different analogy, God sees a person’s entire world line through 4-dimensional spacetime.