What would ET know?

[luckyme]

What are the philosophical terms for ideas that would be universal, as compared with those that are species and/or culture dependant?

It would seem ET would know 'pi' and E=MC2 and processes like radioactive decay and evolution. Even honesty ( regardless of the value ET places on it) and exaggeration would seem to be universal species-independant concepts that require just a decent dose of intelligence.

Other knowledge is species created and not knowledge of the universe itself. We wouldn't expect ET to know the order of our alphabet, or the way to pull off a slowplay in NL hold'em. We'd expect ET to learn such things easily, but not to arrive here already knowing them.

thanks, luckyme

[evolvedForm]

I like this question because it relates to one I've been thinking about: what kind of knowledge would a non-humanoid species have if it evolved to an 'intelligent' level (and what we be considered intelligent?)

The thing is, we humans are herd animals, we are social. This fact necessarily changes what constitutes 'knowledge.' For instance, 'honesty' is a term that has meaning for us, but probably wouldn't for say, an intelligent owl, who is more independant.

Also, it may not even be possible for a non-social animal to become 'intelligent' (by our definition) because communication is important to the latter's development. I just read an article in Scientific American about a study of certain Chimpanzees that seems to support this.

This leads to the question, 'what is intelligence?' If it's defined only in a human sense (and can it be otherwise?) then we are left pretty much in the dark as to other kinds of intelligences.

Maybe if the ETs are social animals, and develop intelligence like ours, they will have similar notions of honesty and exaggeration. But to what degree are those notions social constructs? In other words, aren't those notions not even universal in human culture? I bet a sociologist could dig up cultures where honesty has little or no meaning or value whatsoever.

To answer your question about pi and mathematical concepts, and scientific concepts - aren't they also dependent on our planet? I'm no scientist but my understanding of the relative nature of the solar system leads me to believe that the physical properties of other solar systems are completely different. Different revolutions of stars and moons would mean different mathematical equations...?

Another point about math: perhaps it's a wholly human desire to explain the universe that led us to find 'meaning' in numbers. Maybe there is no meaning in numbers at all, no 'truth' to be found in them. Perhaps they just help us to make our world better because of our specific kind of intelligence. Perhaps math would be meaningless for an intelligent species of ETs. They might discover wholly new traits of the universe (and even our planet) that we never even thought of.

[luckyme]

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For instance, 'honesty' is a term that has meaning for us, but probably wouldn't for say, an intelligent owl, who is more independant.

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I bet a sociologist could dig up cultures where honesty has little or no meaning or value whatsoever.

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Heck, I know those people :-)

I was avoiding the 'value' part of any knowledge, merely the awareness of it. Perhaps I've warped it a bit but honesty in the sense of, "the statement being made is aligned with the facts." Can an entity be intelligent, even if solitary, and not use true/false about their environment.

Maybe I have wandered into the nature of intelligence by accident. An understanding of relationships seems to be a major aspect of it. The concept of 'different types of intelligence' seems to deal with 'an understanding of the relationships in various fields'.
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Another point about math: perhaps it's a wholly human desire to explain the universe that led us to find 'meaning' in numbers. Maybe there is no meaning in numbers at all, no 'truth' to be found in them.

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I'm not sure numbers are a necessity to ET, but some method of recognizing ratios ( relationships) seems basic to intelligence. In the case of pi, it's not the 3.1..... that matters, it would be the recognition that there is a fixed relationship involved, however ET would express or experience it.

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Perhaps math would be meaningless for an intelligent species of ETs. They might discover wholly new traits of the universe (and even our planet) that we never even thought of.

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And they would need to express that in relationships of some sort, or what would it mean that it's a 'trait' of the universe. As we have discovered other methods of expressing relationships, there shouldn't be a bar to thinking ET may have some unique methods of their own that may in a lot of cases overlap or underlap ours.

thanks for the comments, did you come up with the normal terminology for this division of knowledge I'm poking at?

thanks, luckyme

[chezlaw]

Maybe skepticism and justified belief.

chez

[luckyme]

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Maybe skepticism and justified belief.

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Thanks chez, I was hoping you be around and not lollygaggin' in italy again.

You're likely on the right traack, but I was trying to split the epistimological pie in a way that leaves humans out of it. I'm not good at examples but let's grant that "John hurt Mary's feelings" is a true statement and my knowing that is a justified true belief.

Would we expect ET to 'know' what a 'mary's feelings being hurt' is, given that we could express it to him? I'm trying to get my head around what knowledge ET would arrive here with, in some sense "universal knowledge" but after thousands of years I'm sure there is a specific term for that body of knowledge. Or a better way of expressing it a least :-)

thanks, luckyme

[luckyme]

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The thing is, we humans are herd animals, we are social. This fact necessarily changes what constitutes 'knowledge.'

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Yes, much of what people deem as 'true' seems to not take into account the human/social/cultural bias that molds that 'knowledge'.

Perhaps one spin-off from my question is "what would still be true even if you're not human, or a mammal or .."? Is it a given that anything we are capable of recognizing as intelligent would know that the sun is bigger than the earth? Is 'bigger' and it's recognition a universal truth?

still poking at getting this question in the right form, thanks, luckyme

[chezlaw]

Hi

No more holidays for me this year, not even allowed to go to Australia for the cricket /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Would ET understand that this could hurt? Only if conscious experience is necessary for intelligent life. If not then some ET's wouldn't have a clue what was being said and I suspect would think it was merely a mode of speach.

Long time no post, where have you been?

chez

[luckyme]

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Would ET understand that this could hurt? Only if conscious experience is necessary for intelligent life.

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I'm ducking that direction until I have a better grasp of this 'universal body of knowledge' concept. ET was a way of delivering the question.

In some sense, science may claim to be trying to discover these universals, but science seems to get bogged down with classification confusion.

'Bigger' seems a universal, but 'Big' obviously isn't. 'Evolving' seems a universal, but 'species' obviously isn't.

Sorry that I'm not clearer, but if it was clear to me I wouldn't be asking :-)

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Long time no post, where have you been?

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Just wrapped up 18 years in political office, as well as untangling from business, and still trying to get some poker played, experimenting with all the forms. I've been poking in here but lacked the time to take on Sklansky's Last Theorem, much as I was tempted.

thanks for the ideas, luckyme

[keikiwai]

I think there are whole systems of ideas ET would be familiar with.

The concept of logic, and it's rules.

Birth / Death / Competition - not sure what this entails exactly...

Physics - your e=mc^2 example, etc.

[luckyme]

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I think there are whole systems of ideas ET would be familiar with.
The concept of logic, and it's rules.

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My earlier comment on ET's awareness of 'honesty' was based on knowledge being the awareness of 'true/false' which is involved in logic. Whether ET needs an awareness of logic or simply does a form of it well may be a step beyond this 'expected universal body of knowledge' that I'm looking for the name of.

My dog exhibits logic, sometimes more than my kids do, but I'm pretty sure he's not aware of the concept of it. What truths would ET know, and what would we call them?

I've been ducking some great questions that tend to deal with the 'necessary nature' of ET, but just as I'm trying to get a wrap on this body of knowledge that is independant of being known by a human, I need to stay away from making it ET dependant also.

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Birth / Death / Competition - not sure what this entails exactly...

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Birth/Death may well be a viewpoint that is earth-species driven. Would there be a need for an intelligent being to experience or relate to them...birth especially. An intelligence that evolved in a coral-reef colony analogy may not relate to 'birth', which even in our species is arbitrary point and has no meaning or reason to be recognized as a special point in development.

I'll be mulling your comments,
thanks ( I think :-), for the push along, luckyme

[keikiwai]

Well, I'm pretty sure bacteria are not aware of anything (I could be wrong), so I was assuming you meant an intelligent, self-concious, etc. ET....

Interesting point about birth / death. A unit of a colonial organism may not have the same point of view as us... but all life has to have a beginning... since there was no life at the big bang... so they will def. have a concept of birth / beginning....

I guess the same argument cannot be made for death... interesting...

[bunny]

I think truly universal ideas would be very few indeed. I dont think it includes mathematics or logic as I see lots of people managing to exist with little, if any understanding of these (true they rely on them in a primitive and instinctive way but to me that doesnt imply that every culture will notice their existence). I can hardly conceive of an alien culture that wouldnt be based on an understanding of rationality and the scientific method - but that doesnt mean it isnt possible.

I guess I would claim self-awareness as being a prerequisite. Perhaps also knowledge that there is a physical universe distinct from themselves. I cant think of much else that seems essential though.