A ? for people with faith.

[keikiwai]

This is a question for people with "faith" in anything. I'm mostly thinking of the word in the religious sense, but I think the questions work in other ways as well.

Do you think that your faith could be shattered by any observations you make about the world around you, or is your faith unalterable?

If your faith is unalterable, where did it come from, and why is it so strong?

If your faith is alterable, can you really call it faith?

[Pauwl]

If you aren't certain of something but are confident that it is true and have faith in it, then it should automatically be alterable because of your lack of certainty. If your faith is unalterable, then is it really faith? It would be certainty, not faith.

[Sharkey]

How about faith in politicians?

[bunny]

I try and rely on faith only when observations fail - so it is hard to see how an observation could shatter my faith. Nonetheless, I accept the possibility that I may be wrong and therefore I guess I would answer that it is alterable.

I dont see any problem with having faith at the moment, even though it may change. I used to have faith in the opposing view, after all.

[spanshcastlemagc]

[ QUOTE ]
If you aren't certain of something but are confident that it is true and have faith in it, then it should automatically be alterable because of your lack of certainty. If your faith is unalterable, then is it really faith? It would be certainty, not faith.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Jshuttlesworth]

Bunny,

Can you give me an example of when your observations have failed you?

Thanks,
JShuttle

[spaminator101]

true faith is unalterable
my faith is set in stone
it comes from God
i made no decision on my part to have this faith

[Jshuttlesworth]

[ QUOTE ]
true faith is unalterable
my faith is set in stone
it comes from God
i made no decision on my part to have this faith

[/ QUOTE ]

Congratulations, I guess.

One question: What if your parents had been hindus?

[spaminator101]

if my parents had been hindus then God's whole plan for my life would be different.
I dont know what would happen

[Jshuttlesworth]

Ahh, OK.

If God's plan involves you going to hell, will you be mad at him?

[spaminator101]

ahh
if God's plan involved me going to Hell then i wouldn't know Him, and i wouldnt beleive in Him so if i didn't think He existed then i wouldn't be able to be mad at him

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Bunny,

Can you give me an example of when your observations have failed you?

Thanks,
JShuttle

[/ QUOTE ]
They have failed to provide an answer to which religion I should adhere to. They fail to justify my belief in rationality. They fail in answering the mind/body question.

[Jshuttlesworth]

Bunny,

Why do you assume that there is one religion to which you should adhere?

What is the mind/body question?

I'm not sure what you mean by "My observations fail to justify my belief in rationality." Are you saying that you have observed irrationality in the world? Also, I don't agree with your classification of rationality as a "belief."

Thanks,
JShuttle

[Jshuttlesworth]

Spam,

OK, fair enough. How do you "know" God?

JS

[Pauwl]

[ QUOTE ]
true faith is unalterable
my faith is set in stone
it comes from God
i made no decision on my part to have this faith

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you had no decision and your faith came from God, then why is it that I wasn't given such faith? It sounds like you were predestined to go to Heaven, while I am not. Calvinism?

[spaminator101]

i know God on a personal level
I can talk to him just like im talking to you now.
I can talk about ne thing i want with him and he always listens and if i ask a question he always answers.

[Jshuttlesworth]

[ QUOTE ]
i know God on a personal level
I can talk to him just like im talking to you now.
I can talk about ne thing i want with him and he always listens and if i ask a question he always answers.

[/ QUOTE ]

So does he speak audibly to you? Or write to you on an internet message board? Or make his opinion known to you in your brain while you pray/meditate/sleep? Or something else?

[bunny]

I believe in God for rational (though possibly incorrect) reasons and am forced to relate to him in some way. My rational basis for believing doesnt extend as far as telling me which religion is right, however.

What I mean by the mind/body question is whether mind is a purely physical phenomenon or whether the world consists of two kinds of "stuff" physical and mental.

With regard to failing to justify my rationality I mean that I believe rationality is desirable but I have no evidence to support this claim. I believe it on faith. I didnt mean to call rationality belief - I meant a belief that rationality is desirable.

[Jshuttlesworth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
true faith is unalterable
my faith is set in stone
it comes from God
i made no decision on my part to have this faith

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you had no decision and your faith came from God, then why is it that I wasn't given such faith? It sounds like you were predestined to go to Heaven, while I am not. Calvinism?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
if God's plan involved me going to Hell then i wouldn't know Him, and i wouldnt beleive in Him so if i didn't think He existed then i wouldn't be able to be mad at him

[/ QUOTE ]

THAT DOESN'T SATISFY YOU!?! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[spaminator101]

he doesnt always answer through words.
IF im in a rut ill pray and ask God what i need to do.
Then as i read the Bible something sticks out to me. It tells me something i didnt notice before.
Thats God speaking to you

[Jshuttlesworth]

Spam and Bunny,
Thhanks. That clarifies things.

JS

[spaminator101]

no problems

[spaminator101]

yes Calvinism

[surftheiop]

As far as christians go here is our definition of faith from the Bible
"Faith is being certain of what we hope for and sure of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

[HLMencken]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as christians go here is our definition of faith from the Bible
"Faith is being certain of what we hope for and sure of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a perfect way to put it. And there's no way I would want to base my belief system on such an inherently self-serving and irrational world view.

[surftheiop]

So you dont have faith in anything at all?

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As far as christians go here is our definition of faith from the Bible
"Faith is being certain of what we hope for and sure of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a perfect way to put it. And there's no way I would want to base my belief system on such an inherently self-serving and irrational world view.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know my views are unorthodox but I dont think faith is the basis for my belief system. I think I believe in God for good reasons - the faith comes when I cant understand something or wonder how I should relate to God. Given I have a belief in God I have to do something to relate to him - I choose the details of my theological position purely on faith but I dont think it forms the underlying basis for my belief in God.

[godBoy]

My faith get's stronger each day, I find a new truth about the God I know personally. He corresponds perfectly with the Jesus of the bible. My faith is strong, so many things would have to be explained away that it doesn't seem likely of falling apart. The God I know personally is the same God that I find joy in when I read great writing, listen to a great song or see a beatiful piece of art. I find the God revealed in the bible one and the same as the one I find when I pray.
But, if there was a more simple and convincing explanation of it all then my faith would be broken.

[cambraceres]

[ QUOTE ]
But, if there was a more simple and convincing explanation of it all then my faith would be broken.

[/ QUOTE ]

Faith is the belief in what is not seen, alternatively faith can be seen as the belief in a concept despite evidence to the contrary. If your faith can be broken by what you can see, can it really be said to be pure?

Cambraceres

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
But, if there was a more simple and convincing explanation of it all then my faith would be broken.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unbelievable as it may seem to you, what you mention is all subjective. I guess your faith is broken. You just don't know it yet. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[godBoy]

[ QUOTE ]
Faith is the belief in what is not seen, alternatively faith can be seen as the belief in a concept despite evidence to the contrary. If your faith can be broken by what you can see, can it really be said to be pure?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with your second statement. faith doesn't require belief in anything that there is evidence against. It is simply not having every answer, where there is a lack of knowledge you can still trust.
My faith wouldn't be pure by the way you measured it, but as I see faith, it is quite pure.
The vast majority of things I have read are consistent with my knowledge of God.
Nothing I have read describes a God other than the one I know personally.
Where I do not yet have knowledge of some biblical concept I can trust it to be accurate still.
For me, the God I know personally is accurately written about in the bible, so my faith in the God and the bible is strong.

[MidGe]

godboy,
[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with your second statement. faith doesn't require belief in anything that there is evidence against. It is simply not having every answer, where there is a lack of knowledge you can still trust.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, faith doesn't require belief in anything that there is evidence against, it only requires denial of, ignoring or ignorance of the facts. We are in agreement here. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Darryl_P]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think that your faith could be shattered by any observations you make about the world around you, or is your faith unalterable?


[/ QUOTE ]

It could be shattered, but it would require something extraordinary indeed.

[ QUOTE ]
If your faith is alterable, can you really call it faith?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes because when I say I have faith I mean it in the present tense, ie. I have faith right now.

For my faith to be shattered, something would have to happen in the future . Even if the thing itself already happened, my knowing about it would be in the future.

So there is no contradiction. I make no guarantees about continuing to have faith in the future, although I do consider it very likely.

[cambraceres]

This is a stark difference between you and I, the belief in perceived truths there is evidence against is precisely what is essential for pure faith.

Cambraceres