Random Shuffles and "Clumping"

[Jayna_W]

I am very new to hold'em. I was playing in cardroom in LA in a $2/$4 game. I played for four hours and was dealt hands like K2, 84, Q7, K7, 73, all day long except for a couple of premium hands and a few good starting hands. The two men on my left were making flushes and straights with hands like Q7s, 74s, and 87, and some good starting hands, etc. Usually when I play on the internet, I get some good hands and some bad hands. After a losing session, I was driving home and it dawned on me that the dealers were manually shuffling the deck, and some were only shuffling once and then cutting the deck. Only later it occured to me that maybe the way they shuffled had something to do with the distribution of the cards. Do cards have a tendency to "clump" together if the shuffle is not thorough. Can I demand a more random shuffle? If so, how many shuffles can I ask for? I feel like an idiot. Am I crazy? Does anyone have any ideas about this?

[MegumiAmano]

The first thing to realize is that "random" doesn't mean "equally distributed." There will be clumps.

One shuffle isn't enough though. You're more likely to get a good answer to that part on the probability forum.

[Nut4Dawgs]

Long time ago I think I read that a deck has to be shuffled 5 times to ensure a good mix. No casino will give up that amount of time and players won't either.

Every house seems to have a set procedure - to ensure a level of consistancy and for security. Where I usually play it involves a mixing around on the table of the muck and undealt, a couple of shuffles, multi-cutting 3 times, shuffle and deal.

Without an auto-shuffler you're just going to have to accept it.

[Bremen]

For the most part these are patterns our mind sees that aren't there. For someone who plays on the internet bad streaks go by quickly and we forget (if we even notice due to multitabling). Getting cold cards for 2 hours in a casino is something we find much harder to brush off. For the most part clumping is something you're imagining as you're not getting sequential cards off the deck anyway.

[PokerEveryDay]

One deck is 7 times, but it might take too long.

[Banks2334]

Even if they clump, the cards are cut, dealt out one at a time and starting with a new player every round. The more you play, the more you will see that your cards were "normal". Also, your own memory can not be trusted. If you make an assumption, it will only remember things to confirm your thinking and ignore the rest. Confirmation bias. But there is nothing wrong with politely asking for a "big scramble" of the cards or an extra shuffle. Just don't do it evry time and give a tip.

[PokerEveryDay]

Actually I think 7 times is from the start of a new deck where a wash is done after the dealer confirms the deck is good. I would think 5 times should be good enough.

[Photoc]

A couple months ago some assclown came on here saying he's never played live but he would INSIST a dealer riffled 10 times for each shuffle before he would play. Thats not only insane, but moronic to boot. Standard procedure is riffle riffle strip riffle cut, or riffle strip riffle riffle cut.

[teddygraham]

Scramble-riffle-riffle-box-riffle-cut is the standard (according to the Professional Poker Dealers Handbook)

[Buzz-cp]

The only reasonable purpose of shuffling is to conceal the identify of the next deal. A game like holdem has no meaningful organization of cards when they are mucked and recollected. The cards could simply be cut and redealt and this would be no less random than 5 shuffles.

[smbruin22]

[ QUOTE ]
The only reasonable purpose of shuffling is to conceal the identify of the next deal. A game like holdem has no meaningful organization of cards when they are mucked and recollected. The cards could simply be cut and redealt and this would be no less random than 5 shuffles.

[/ QUOTE ]

very good point about the cards having no meaningful order in holdem when they are mucked.

when i played my first home tournament i insisted that we put out all 52 cards by rank to make sure they were all there. then the first hand i got dealt KK. felt somewhat bad as i was the one who asked for the cards to be put in order, in which case it would take alot of shuffling to make them random.

i also don't think it's that rare to get pretty cold cards for 4 hours or that rare to hit 87s for straight or flush.

[shant]

It wasn't the dealer's fault, it was God. He hates you a lot.