$2/$4 Stud Hi - Playing chicken

[greenage]

I’m pretty resigned to the fact that my posts suck, so here’s another one. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif


7 Card Stud High ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (converter (http://j.1asphost.com/greenage))

3rd Street - (0.75 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds
Hero: K/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif___brings-in___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif___completes___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif___folds

4th Street - (5.25 SB)

Hero: K/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif___bets

5th Street - (3.63 BB)

Hero: K/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif___checks___calls

6th Street - (5.63 BB)

Hero: K/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif___checks___folds

Total pot: (5.63 BB)

[BTirish]

Standard response about this being a small ante game, no need to pull this kind of stuff.

However: I've noted a number of opponents willing to make the 6th street laydown if they haven't improved their single low pair. Against this specific kind of opponent with this particular weakness, I'm willing to make plays like this very occasionally. I had a lot of success with this the other day against a particular opponent, because he was willing to fold 6th UI every single time if I showed aggression the whole way. He basically agreed to play 6 card stud and to give me credit for hands when I bet out on 6th. I take it that, generally speaking, 6th is the worst street to be folding on regularly--you usually have more outs and better odds for a single bet than on any previous street. Also, a single pair will improve to two pair or better by 6th street significantly less than 50% of the time. So, even in the tight structure, against opponents who regularly fold 6th instead of 5th, I think this is a money-making play when used sparingly.

[iamastud]

Your 3rd street play makes no sense and probably no cents in general.

I don't get why you thought 3rd st was the place, with his raise, to make a play here. Were you bored? Was that player always raising? You reraised him because you also have a 7?(in general that is not wise)Did you predict that on 3rd st, you would get him to lay his hand down on 6th? If that is the case and you can forsee opportunities like this, then you really need to be playing $50/100 stud instead of $2/$4 stud, because your talent is being wasted at this level.

[Maksymilian]

My hats off to you. I can't get many players at that level to fold with paired doorcards.

[BeerMoney]

Greenage, it was a bluff that worked... That's great.

I think that when hands like this are discussed, we really need to be discussing %'s, that is, what % of the time should you make a play like this.. Obviously this should not be a default play, and is opponent dependant.

Its great that you have some sort of control over your opponent, etc, but what kind of feedback are you looking for that you don't already know? Like BTIrish said, low ante, small stakes, better spot, yada yada, etc... If your feeling ancy, and don't like the way a table is playing, the beauty of online poker is that it is easy to open a new table.

Mike Emery has a stainless steel butt plug.

[greenage]

Hey Beer, I’m just trying to getting peeps posting hands again.

All my posted hands suck, so it don’t matter which hand I post.

I don’t know how to assign a percentage to “I think you R stealing with sh$t, let’s play“.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
“I think you R stealing with sh$t, let’s play“.

[/ QUOTE ]

I respect that, i just usually wait for some sort of a hand, rather than a crappy hold em hand. Like I said though, brass balls, nice hand. Have you played 3/6 at all? I like the feel of that game a lot better.. I think i like a smaller bring in. The larger ante will make plays like this that you're willing to make more profitable.

[Jeffage]

Fold third. After you misclick, absolutely cake fold on fourth. After you misclick, check behind fifth since you have little chance of winning with a bet. Good thing your spew worked on sixth, but this hand is very poorly played IMO (and no, I'm not trying to be mean, just honest).

Jeff

[iamastud]

amen!

[BTirish]

Jeff: Do you think there's anything even slightly redeemable about what I said? I do think that this can be a profitable play against a particular kind of opponent: weak-passive types who will fold on 6th UI. Obviously you don't encounter such a person very often (and probably almost never at higher stakes, I would guess), when you do, doesn't this, on average, become a profitable play?

Maybe I was just spewing, but I pulled a play similar to this one in 4 or 5 hands against a particular opponent in a game a few days ago.

[7csCB]

Yeah, BT, I agree with your points and I use this too.

There are a few players I have identified who are (relatively) easy to push off a pot at 5th or 6th. Usually, very tight and passive. But these villains, as far as I can tell, are winning players.

Knowing this makes it that much more worthwhile to play but
I do agree that these are not the right starters.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
Standard response about this being a small ante game, no need to pull this kind of stuff.

However: I've noted a number of opponents willing to make the 6th street laydown if they haven't improved their single low pair. Against this specific kind of opponent with this particular weakness, I'm willing to make plays like this very occasionally. I had a lot of success with this the other day against a particular opponent, because he was willing to fold 6th UI every single time if I showed aggression the whole way. He basically agreed to play 6 card stud and to give me credit for hands when I bet out on 6th. I take it that, generally speaking, 6th is the worst street to be folding on regularly--you usually have more outs and better odds for a single bet than on any previous street. Also, a single pair will improve to two pair or better by 6th street significantly less than 50% of the time. So, even in the tight structure, against opponents who regularly fold 6th instead of 5th, I think this is a money-making play when used sparingly.

[/ QUOTE ]

the question is, does the number of times when you try this and fail make up for the 1 or 2 times it does work. It just doesnt seem like this pure bluff is a profitable play...much better to try something like this when you at least start with something and brick, rather than going into the hand knowing the only way you can win is by luck or pure bluff.
Especially at these limits where it is tough to force a fold.

[climber]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold third. After you misclick, absolutely cake fold on fourth. After you misclick, check behind fifth since you have little chance of winning with a bet. Good thing your spew worked on sixth, but this hand is very poorly played IMO (and no, I'm not trying to be mean, just honest).

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm new to stud myself...I read Roy West's book and have played maybe 3-400 hands of 1/2 on Party but I also see no reason for not folding on 3rd or 4th street as Jeffage says above.

[greenage]

I thought villain was on a steal. If you look at the board, I'm last to act before the BI and showing the biggest door card and only "paint".

Seat's 8 and 1 would need to think twice before calling a completion with me still to act.

My fourth street % is in the low 20's, so villain had some good odds that my fold button has already been clicked.

Seat 5 (the BI) is a short-stack with about 5 BB in front of him, so he might want to look for a better spot to play.

The goal in this hand was not to win a showdown; it was to force him to lay his hand down. I was looking to represent a hand and waiting for him to blink.

Now, I don't know if he was on pure air or not. Let's say he has a small pair. That would make me about a 55-45 dog on third. Of course, when he picked up that Ace on fourth, I really lost some ground.

I probably should have given up on fourth, but if I do, I don't get to see if he'll blink on a big bet street. Once he checked to me on fifth, I knew I had him.

But why play this hand at all? All I can offer is some Rounders dialog:

[ QUOTE ]

I had nothing. But he raised.
And I just decided, you know, I don't care about the money.
I'm just gonna outplay the guy.
I'm just gonna outplay this guy this hand.
- I re-raised. - Re-raise.
- You played right back at him, huh? - Oh, yeah.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for putting up with me. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Andy B]

Basically, everything Jeff said, except I don't mind being mean. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Your starting hand is garbage. The other guy has raised in early position in a tightly-structured game when there is a player with a strong door card yet to act. This suggests that he has a legitimate hand. Furthermore, it is very unlikely that you're going to get this guy off of his hand. He's getting 4:1 or something, so he's not folding now. On fourth, it will be 6:1, so he's not going to fold then. Maybe he'll fold fifth, but then you've invested 2 BB to see if you could steal a pot that had 2 BB when you got mixed up in it in the first place. I'm glad it worked out, but this really is just spewing. I don't think that there's any point at which I put money into this pot. The other guy got his money in first. He wins. Please forget ever re-stealing in a game of this size and structure.

[greenage]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you played 3/6 at all? I like the feel of that game a lot better.. I think i like a smaller bring in. The larger ante will make plays like this that you're willing to make more profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beer,

I tried the $3/$6 game on Party yesterday and hated it. Maybe that game was unusual but it played as loose as a micro-limit game and a lot more aggressive.

I’d complete first/second in with split Aces/Kings and get three/four callers. I tried to limp in with flush draws to find it completed, raised and sometimes re-raised behind me.

I don’t know, you guys jump on me for making plays in tightly structured games. I just don’t see where else they’ll work unless you happen to find a more loosely structured game that happens to be playing tight.

I’ll stick with the tightly structured games for now because I don’t know how to play the other.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have you played 3/6 at all? I like the feel of that game a lot better.. I think i like a smaller bring in. The larger ante will make plays like this that you're willing to make more profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beer,

I tried the $3/$6 game on Party yesterday and hated it. Maybe that game was unusual but it played as loose as a micro-limit game and a lot more aggressive.

I’d complete first/second in with split Aces/Kings and get three/four callers. I tried to limp in with flush draws to find it completed, raised and sometimes re-raised behind me.



[/ QUOTE ]

sounds like you just need to adjust and learn some patience. These games can be frustrating, but rewarding when you hit.

If your marginal hand that your trying to sneak in with gets raised, and reraised behind you, you have an easy fold, move on to the next hand... right?

[greenage]

[ QUOTE ]
sounds like you just need to adjust and learn some patience. These games can be frustrating, but rewarding when you hit.

[/ QUOTE ]
I’m just starting to play profitably in the tightly structured games. I don’t think I’m ready for the variance of a more loosely structured game.


[ QUOTE ]
If your marginal hand that your trying to sneak in with gets raised, and reraised behind you, you have an easy fold, move on to the next hand... right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but it was frustrating. Even more so not being able to thin the field with large pairs.

Next time I have a spare buy-in or two, I’ll try it again. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
I don’t know, you guys jump on me for making plays in tightly structured games. I just don’t see where else they’ll work unless you happen to find a more loosely structured game that happens to be playing tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right--I shouldn't get on you for making these kinds of plays in tightly-structured games. I should get on you for making these kinds of plays in low-limit games. Even if the ante is $.50, as it is in my local $2/4 game, don't bother. If you're getting bored waiting for a hand, play a second table.

[greenage]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don’t know, you guys jump on me for making plays in tightly structured games. I just don’t see where else they’ll work unless you happen to find a more loosely structured game that happens to be playing tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right--I shouldn't get on you for making these kinds of plays in tightly-structured games. I should get on you for making these kinds of plays in low-limit games. Even if the ante is $.50, as it is in my local $2/4 game, don't bother. If you're getting bored waiting for a hand, play a second table.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, by posting these hands I guess it looks like I’m advocating these plays as a standard part of the arsenal. In actuality, they are rare and probably shouldn’t even be posted (cough, um played).