An intelligent atheist becomes an intelligent christian! True!

[MidGe]

Here is the link (http://www.alternet.org/story/33236/).

[bunny]

I dont really understand why he calls himself a Christian. If it were me I think I would identify myself as an atheist churchgoer. Or an atheist member of a religious community.

It seems to me that a fundamental requirement to be Christian is to believe that God exists and that he sent Jesus to "show us the way". I would also include a belief that the Bible is the revealed word of God but I guess that this being a requirement is open to debate.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont really understand why he calls himself a Christian. If it were me I think I would identify myself as an atheist churchgoer. Or an atheist member of a religious community.

It seems to me that a fundamental requirement to be Christian is to believe that God exists and that he sent Jesus to "show us the way". I would also include a belief that the Bible is the revealed word of God but I guess that this being a requirement is open to debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bunny, exactly.

I bolded some words in your post.

To me, an impartial observer wo doesn't belong to any christian sect, nor subscribes to whatver that author even sees in christianity, it appears that he is more eucumenical, universal, catholic, and tolerant than your brand of christianity. In fact, to me, he appears more "christian". I surely have no objections to this type of christianity, neither does it have to be atheistic in any way for me to respect it. I very much respect the Amishes, for instance, in the same way that they respect/allow me to live my life without being preached at or told what I can or cannot do (altough I am not impressed by their beliefs of what will happen after I die... LOL ).

[bunny]

I understand - it just puzzles me why he would use the name Christian rather than labelling himself an atheist who goes to church. I wonder whether he sees any distinction between these two positions. There is presumably advantage to him in that he wants to engage in political activism of some sorts and calling himself an atheist churchgoer may create barriers between him and his audience - he didnt read like someone making a decision based purely on advantage to him though.

[MidGe]

No bunny,

I think that he is right, and that you are wrong (and imo arrogant) by not accepting other view points. He considers himself christian, like you do, based on his understanding, like you have yours, he undertakes to deepens his undertsanding, like I presume you do, and he vowed to try to uphold the values (which he names) he understand christianity to have.

Seems very hard to beat to me, as far as christianity goes, unless christianity implies a narrowness of mind.

[bunny]

Dont get me wrong - I'm not challenging his right to call himself a Christian, just wondering why he does. I certainly accept other views of Christianity (in fact I usually label myself a heretic - adopting the view that my position is not the "true Christian" position).

[MidGe]

He calls himself a christian, and what's more went thru the step of joining a congregation, because he believes he is a christian, due to his current understanding of the foundation of christianity. (here I am preaching /images/graemlins/smile.gif lol ) And imo, he is a more examplar christian than most (NOT all) christians posters on this forum. He doesn't deny other sects, he is open, and surely is not going to start bickering about what theological issues may be right or wrong. He seems intent on practicing what he believes. Refreshing change for what I see of christianity, or as it is often, examplified on this forum by so-called christians that all vie for the orthodox label. LOL

[bunny]

It certainly seems to me that the morally important part of being Christian is in how you live rather than which interpretation of the Bible you believe. Or in which religious customs you follow.

[purnell]

[ QUOTE ]
The task of religion, paradoxically, is to bring into being a world based on the universal values that underlie most major theological and philosophical systems -- compassion, empathy, solidarity, dignity. Such a world would be truly based on love and real solidarity, a world in which we would take seriously the claim that all people have exactly the same value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this passage very much- except that I don't think it's paradoxical at all.

edit:
http://www.stickergiant.com/Merchant2/imgs/250/b5643.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[nepenthe]

I've read the link, and I've gathered that the author has decided to call himself a Christian for the purpose of leading the other, 'truer' Christians away from their faith. It is smarter, and in many ways more effective, to work from 'within,' for no other purpose than to foster a false sense of credibility and commonality. To cause an implosion rather than an explosion. This is why atheists and/or agnostics like you, MidGe, and people of your ilk, appear to like this person. And no, I am most definitely not a Christian. Don't bother replying here, if you feel inclined to, because I most likely won't have the time to read it (I rarely ever come here). Instead email me. nepenthe@mindspring.com. Then I'll consider explicating.

[MidGe]

To keep going I am posting a reply to the original article that, I think, again is a good example of christian attitude:
[ QUOTE ]
As a lifelong Roman Catholic and also as a committed theologian within the catholic community, I can only say to prof. Jensen: I respectfully salute you as my brother in Christ. Was it not Jesus himself who said that his true followers are not those who say "Lord, Lord" but those who are doing the will of his Father? If Christians are those who accept the way of the Christ as their way (and they are: before anyone called us Christians we were called 'people of the Way'), I simply cannot understand all those who commented that Robert Jensen cannot be a Christian. My dear sisters and brothers: orthopraxy (i.e. the right way of acting) was, for Jesus Christ himself, always paramount. As far as I know the obsession with orthodoxy (literally: the right way of worshipping, which only later on took on the meaning of "the right doctrine") dates from a later period, when Christianity spread and had to find its place in the Greek-Roman world and its philosophies - and had to cope with all the different interpretations of Christ's life and teachings that sprang up within Christianity itself.

Therefore: if someone chooses to join the community of Christ's followers because he endorses Christ's teachings en acknowledges the divine Love that lies at the heart of them (as John the apostle wrote: "God is love"), let no-one presume to deny him (or her!) the right to call himself "Christian". The great German theologian Karl Rahner was the first one to give the name "anonymous Christians" to those honest people who do not belong to any Christian community but who do devote their lives to justice, peace and compassion. So all that professor Jensen has done is to stop being "anonymous" by joining a Christian community. And indeed, I heartily embrace as my sister and brother in Christ any honest person who may refuse to say "Lord, Lord" (and thus would qualify as an atheist) but does live according to the will of God.

[/ QUOTE ]

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
I've read the link, and I've gathered that the author has decided to call himself a Christian for the purpose of leading the other, 'truer' Christians away from their faith.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no evidence of that at all in the article, on the contrary.

Sorry, I don't engage in personal e-mails with persons unknown /images/graemlins/smile.gif ... I prefer public debate.

[godBoy]

He has rejected Jesus' claims of identity, a christian believes Jesus is who he said he was. It's this belief alone that qualifies someone as a christian. No need for response MidGe.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
He has rejected Jesus' claims of identity, a christian believes Jesus is who he said he was. It's this belief alone that qualifies someone as a christian. No need for response MidGe.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats your view but another view is that following the teachings of christ in the way you live your life makes you a christian.

IMO those who believe christ was the son of god but then dont follow his teachings are not in any way christian.

chez

[godBoy]

I think that naturally follows, God says if you love me you will obey my commands.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that naturally follows, God says if you love me you will obey my commands.

[/ QUOTE ]
So you're saying that all those who claim to be christians but then act in an unchristian manner are in fact not christian. I agree with that.

Still doesn't mean that those whose moral code follows jesus' believe in (or love) god.

chez

[purnell]

Hi GB. Please take a look at Luke 6:43-49. What I get from it is that it is far better to be a good person with weak or no faith than to be a hypocrite. IMO we should embrace those who "bear good fruit" even if they don't (or can't) accept our doctrine.