50 NL - KK fold the flop

[mr_npiv]

Villain is 14/9.4/1.7 over 64 hands

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com (http://www.leggopoker.com) - Hand History Converter (http://www.leggopoker.com/hh)

MP: $45.75
CO: $13.85
BTN: $30.50
SB: $43.75
Hero (BB): $79
UTG: $64.70

Pre-Flop: K/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif dealt to Hero (BB)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $1.50</font>, MP folds, CO calls $1.50, BTN folds, SB calls $1.25, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6</font>, UTG calls $4.50, CO folds, SB calls $4.50

Flop: ($19.50) T/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $10</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $22</font>, <font color="red">UTG raises to $58.70 and is All-In</font>, Hero folds

Results: $63.50 Pot ($3 Rake)
UTG mucked and WON $60.50 (+$32.50 NET)

I didnt bet out the flop, because I didnt want to get just get called, leaving me with a difficult decision on the turn, and by then a bigger pot.

I got the information i needed, but my question is could I have got away from this hand using less money?

[Cueballmania]

No, you bet out on the flop because if you get raised, then you know you have a problem.

If you were looking for a fold, why not fold to his bet? You have to be more aggressive, bet the flop or c/r a real amount like 30. Folding to the shove is fine.

[Profish2285]

I really dont like the way you played this at any point. First of all, once someone raises pf and theres 2 callers ahead of you, you have to make a much larger 3 bet. I would make it around 10, otherwise youre pricing people in. After that I would lead the flop. Its not as scary as you think it is. Realistically youre beat by QQ or quads, as there wont be many if any tens in peoples ranges once you make a large 3b pf. As played I am snap calling. I dont see how you can put in almost 1/2 your stack in here and fold. You have an overpair in a 3 bet pot and are getting almost 3:1 I think, no folding.

[Cueballmania]

Okay, wow, that PFR is tiny. I agree with Profish on the that. I think we're beat a lot as played and don't mind the fold to the 3-bet shove from someone with the stats he posted.

[Speedlimits]

your pf raise is wayyyy too small.

bet flop

[Profish2285]

[ QUOTE ]
I think we're beat a lot as played and don't mind the fold to the 3-bet shove from someone with the stats he posted.


[/ QUOTE ]

Major spew imo to fold here in a 3b pot getting these odds. No way can we profitably fold this over time.

[Cueballmania]

He's getting 2:1ish, hmm. I never end up in these spots because I never check on this flop. I guess calling is okay. I think we're behind a solid chunk of the time. Although other than QQ, ATs, nothing else seems reasonable for him to raise.

[Profish2285]

Realistically, its a small sample of hands to get too caught up on the stats. If its a larger sample then you could start to question it. Yea I miscalculated though, it thought it was 100bb stacks. I still cant really see a fold though. Im sure youre going to see AQ in here and possibly even KQ. The way I see it is that besides the small sample size, this guy got some good odds to come along so now he is. What it comes down to is raising a bet in a 3b pot with the intention of folding when holding a hand like this is just terrible. The only thing I could reasonably fold here is air or an underpair, but Im not raising an underpair so only air is a fold for me.

[Ekos]

bet the flop(as others have mentioned)!!!!*$#

leave HIM with the big decision, not YOU!

[mr_npiv]

[ QUOTE ]
What it comes down to is raising a bet in a 3b pot with the intention of folding when holding a hand like this is just terrible. The only thing I could reasonably fold here is air or an underpair, but Im not raising an underpair so only air is a fold for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Intention of folding? I don't quite follow that logic. I had the intention of winning.

My main question was how i could get the information i needed as cheaply as possible, and leading on the flop probably would have been wise. The villain is a tight mouse by his stats, and my observation. I put him on Queens Or Aces or AK.

I reraised to find out which it was. And it was queens as he showed.

My AF on the flop is 5.5. I dont know why i didnt bet the flop, For some reason I had a strong sense my man had queens. You argue the reraise preflop was small, but according to my read on the guy it was big enough. He wouldnt have called it, with anything but a very strong hand.

And i wanted some action! The remaining players where not the type to cold call a bet like that, unless it was really multiway. the Cutoff was my target here, he was a lagtard.

[Profish2285]

[ QUOTE ]
My main question was how i could get the information i needed as cheaply as possible, and leading on the flop probably would have been wise. The villain is a tight mouse by his stats, and my observation. I put him on Queens Or Aces or AK.

I reraised to find out which it was. And it was queens as he showed.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, that range is way too tight, even for someone with those stats. Second of all, raising for information is bad, raising for info in a 3 bet pot is terrible.

[ QUOTE ]
You argue the reraise preflop was small, but according to my read on the guy it was big enough. He wouldnt have called it, with anything but a very strong hand.

And i wanted some action! The remaining players where not the type to cold call a bet like that, unless it was really multiway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop thinking this way. You dont want to raise small to keep everyone in, your hand is not good multiway. You want to play this heads up. Also, if he has a big hand, hes coming along either way. However, a bigger raise offers him smaller implied odds and in turn makes it incorrect for him to call. Thats how you make money in poker, by having the opponent make more mistakes than you. By raising small youre making a mistake, not the villain.

[Waingro]

I think you are obsessing way to much about finding out where you are at. First of all, pf you have very very profitable situation. The pot is already big and several opponents have indicated they have some sort of hand that they might call a rr with. Rr bigger to $8.5. If they fold speculative hands like 22 or 67s, that they don´t intend to put any money in with post flop unless they flop big, that is ok.

On the flop, in this sized pot and with a hand as good as KK, ask yourself, are there any legitamate hands villains might call with? Obvious answer is hands like KQ, AQ. How do you extract from those hands? You bet. If villain happens to have a better hand than yours, tough break. The awesome check/miniraise from the pf re-raiser is not going to extract more than the minimum from those hands, whereas if you bet out villain might overplay his top pair and raise.

Your job at the table in this spot is not to find out if you are beat, it is getting the most possible value out of a realistic range for villain. To make every effort that the money that goes into the pot goes in good. Also if you think villains range for betting the flop is QQ, AA, AK (lol) raising seems like a really bad idea.

[bozzer]

others have commented on the rest of the play, just to note that i am folding getting 2:1 after we get 3bet.

[Reefypoopoo]

$8 - 9 pf please

dont like flop c/r