Am I ever scared of this bet on the river? (BIG bet)

[n4rf]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) Full Tilt (http://www.flopturnriver.com/reviews/Online-Poker-FullTilt.php#converter) Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($14.30)
SB ($9.90)
Hero ($14.55)
UTG ($7.95)
MP ($12.20)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $0.3</font>, SB calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.5</font>, Button folds, SB calls $1.10.

Flop: ($3.20) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2.2</font>, SB calls $2.20.

Turn: ($7.60) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($7.60) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $6.3 (All-In)</font>


Villain is Unknown

Should I have bet the turn as well and folded to resistance?

As played, what would you do here?

[nate_b_17]

looks like a missed c/r on the turn that is trying to get value. i probably would have fired on the turn and if shoved on i'm never good here. cant see any 10 combination that we beat playing it this way.

i expect to see at least 2 pair/set most of the time

[djj6835]

Not a big bet, it not even a psb. Shove turn, call river. If this is how villain plays a flush draw/flush in a rr pot then he is terrible and can have a bunch of other junk too.

[n4rf]

[ QUOTE ]
Not a big bet, it not even a psb. Shove turn, call river. If this is how villain plays a flush draw/flush in a rr pot then he is terrible and can have a bunch of other junk too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this is NL10 so the bet is moderately big considering it's the rest of his stack.

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not a big bet, it not even a psb. Shove turn, call river. If this is how villain plays a flush draw/flush in a rr pot then he is terrible and can have a bunch of other junk too.

[/ QUOTE ] Well this is NL10 so the bet is moderately big considering it's the rest of his stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a rr pot so 100 bbs deep any time a bet is made on two streets the last bet is likely going to be for stacks so relatively speaking his bet size shouldn't be scary.

edit: basically I'm saying the situation is completely different than if it is a normal raised pot and villain over bet shoved 2x pot on the river.

[bored]

I shove turn.

As played, I snap call river.

It is hard playing against unknowns. I'd play it different if I had stats and/or reads.

[Aceium]

I like betting on the turn. Since you didn't bet on the turn his shoving range on the river is a lot less defined. As played I don't think you're going to win this pot with one pair all that often. Some villains are capable of shoving here with JJ or QQ, or a busted draw (unlikely). Against an unknown who we haven't seen do things like that before, this is probably a fold.

[n4rf]

A lot of mixed feelings about this hand. I understand I put myself in a tough spot by not betting out the turn.

The one thing that's tricky is that some of you are saying vs an unknown you would call, where as others are saying they would fold.

Now in general, am I giving unknowns more credit with hands like these? Even at these levels? (I assume as you move up you're not going to see as many donks as you see at NL10 + 25).


Consensus of hand in white:<font color="white"> Villain shows A10, top pair. </font>

[Paul Thomson]

u can't ever fold in the hand.

[n4rf]

I feel like for this exact hand, and other similarly played hands this is how I would play vs certain opponents:

Unknowns: Call 80% Fold 20% (I just can't give unknowns too much credit at these levels, if I get stacked I get stacked...)
Solid TAGS (same applies for LAGS who play TAG postflop): Call 50% Fold 50% (depends on read)
LAGS (preflop and postflop): Call 70% Fold 30% (assuming I'll see similar holdings as I did in this hand, but also flushes since they play any 2 suited cards).
Fish: Call 100% Fold 0%

Anyone have similar views?

[Chargers In 07]

[ QUOTE ]

Anyone have similar views?

[/ QUOTE ]No I don't think so. You should be pushing the turn. Giving somebody a free card to beat you in a large pot is awful.

[Paul Thomson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Anyone have similar views?

[/ QUOTE ]No I don't think so. You should be pushing the turn. Giving somebody a free card to beat you in a large pot is awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isn't necessarily true if they'll bluff the river a ton or even 50% of the time for that matter. especially if there always folding to a turn bet. (this hand isn't necessarily a good example but i think the concept ur talking about isn't always applicable)

[existential_dred]

everyone at the table thinks you have pocket pair, if not a big pocket pair. most re-raises that come over the top of two pre-flop raises on full tilt micro-limit turn out to be pocket pairs. the only other hand anyone will think you might have is big slick...but most assume you have pocket pair...keep in mind that you are giving away information about how you play big pairs before you decide to call or fold.

i hate the no bet on the turn because of the position i find myself in on the river...

i would have to catch someone bluffing ~30% of the time for this call to be profitable. in my experience on full tilt .10/.25 tables, i don't catch people bluffing with pot matching bets that often. with that said...i probably take my lumps and call for the following reasons.

i feel pressure to call because i don't want to encourage anyone else (paying attention) to take shots at me everytime a scare card hits the board...if i just sat down at the table, i will call because even if i am wrong, i am creating a more manageable table image since people will bluff and semi-bluff at me less. if i have been at the table a while, i might think about the recent hands and decide whether i showed weakness in any previous big hands...if i did, i would feel more compelled to call because i gave the villian reason to believe he could bluff me out.

finally, i find that it is worth rooting out these habitual bluffers on full tilt. why? because they get attached to the pot frequently and bluff/over-represent hands all the time in hopes of getting their money back. even if you only catch a bluffer 10 to 20% of the time, you will find you can trap him over and over again in one session. finding the exploitable donkey at the table is valuabe information and probably worth the negative EV you take on calling the river...

dred