25NL JJ vs K high flop

[gfejs]

Hello this is my first HH post here, and I think leggopoker handconverter doesnt support everest poker... but I dunno mb I am doing anything wrong. So if you could help me convert the hand I would be happy /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

About the hand, I dont have any usefull reads on the villian but he is playing the ussal 40/15 game u see at 25NL. The reason I called this down is that the bets he puts out there screams PP of some sort... Do I have the oddz here or should I fold the flop/turn?

EverestPoker Game #2436365384: Table Muscat-45 - $0.15/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 03:18:39 - 2007/11/29
Seat 1: FreshPnutz ($25.00)
Seat 2: Neto. ($60.62)
Seat 3: gfejs ($26.10)
Seat 4: elINMORTAL ($34.75)
Seat 5: carlos10038 ($6.45)
Seat 6: KAMIKAZ-DUKE ($24.50)
elINMORTAL posts the small blind of $0.15
carlos10038 posts the big blind of $0.25
FreshPnutz posts $0.25
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to gfejs[Jc Jd]
KAMIKAZ-DUKE raises to $0.50
FreshPnutz calls $0.25
Neto. calls $0.50
gfejs raises to $3.00
elINMORTAL folds
carlos10038 folds
KAMIKAZ-DUKE calls $2.50
FreshPnutz folds
Neto. folds
*** FLOP *** [8d 6s Kh]
KAMIKAZ-DUKE bets $2.05
gfejs calls $2.05
*** TURN *** [8d 6s Kh] [2s]
KAMIKAZ-DUKE bets $2.25
gfejs calls $2.25
*** RIVER *** [8d 6s Kh 2s] [Kc]
KAMIKAZ-DUKE bets $3.95
gfejs calls $3.95

[eastern motors]

Hard to say without reads. Have you seem him bet small on three streets before?

I would probably raise the flop. It will be cheaper to fold to a RR than to call down and you might fold out KT etc... You 3-bet PF so he could definitely put you on AA/KK/AK. If he calls and leads the turn, I would fold.

[hoyasaxa]

i learned a long time ago to raise the flop to find out where you are. shut down if youre called.

[gfejs]

Hmm I dont like raising this flop myself as it turns my possibly good hand into a bluff. Mb its the right move dunno, is there any other options? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[gfejs]

Great I just went through the hand like 100 times and came up too a conclusion about it...

The donk bet into me the 3 better must mean something like a weak King, sets or a lower pp... (could be complete air sometimes if the villian is a mainac)... So the question is do I want too try and get the weak king too fold on the flop or do I want too get value from the lower pp´s. The answer is obvious if I want too continue in the hand I must belive he will fold a weaker king too a rr on the flop or I must lay this down.

I think the answer is reraising the flop at this limit is -ev if I dont have a good read on my opponment, thus my conclusion here is too reraise the flop vs like 30% of the villians and fold too the rest.

sry just wanted too spew my thoughts about this, as I felt I played the hand really bad.

[patrick10]

the problem is the way it was played you have very little idea what villain has.

He could easily have many kings here but also draws + PP you have beat.

There is another thread titled "set played too agressive? " or something like that which is somewhat similar to this, in that you are dealing with a villain donk betting super weak into you.

I tend to disagree with you and think that you should raise the flop. Bump it up to $6- $7 and then you have an easy C/F decision on later streets- as played, you put ~$9.5 into the pot after the flop and still didnt know where you were at ...

[patrick10]

edit: thread is actually called " Too aggressive with set" i believe, check it out OP, situation is not identical at all, but it may help ya

[vixticator]

He weak leads into you after calling a 3bet on a paired board, I doubt he has anything. Raise flop or call and raise turn. Not really as a bluff, kind of a value bluff. He has at best KJ imo. More likely something like 77 or TT. I'd even consider betting turn facing a call.

I wrote about this last night. I think it applies here:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...=5#Post13150926 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=13150926&an=0&page=5 #Post13150926)

[gfejs]

[ QUOTE ]
He weak leads into you after calling a 3bet on a paired board, I doubt he has anything. Raise flop or call and raise turn. Not really as a bluff, kind of a value bluff. He has at best KJ imo. More likely something like 77 or TT. I'd even consider betting turn facing a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes that is why I dont want too raise cause I will fold out any hands I beat and I loose value. But I honestly think if you want too continue in this hand you must raise it up.

Patriks reasoning in this thread and the other thread is pretty spot on, but I still think you need a read too raise this up at my limit (25NL) alot of people stack of with any king here.

And the donk lead isnt super weak IMO, there is a big diffrence in min bet leads and like 1/3 size pot leads. A min bet lead I´m raising with 72 off here and expect a fold 99,99% of the time.

In this situation I still dont know if a raise or fold is correct as I dont have any good read on my Villian, but I tend too think I should have raised it up here.

[vixticator]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes that is why I dont want too raise cause I will fold out any hands I beat and I loose value. But I honestly think if you want too continue in this hand you must raise it up.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your hand is too weak to get much value from on this board unless opponent is totally clueless that bet is the most value you are getting other than just calling down. The problem with calling down is it will wind up getting yourself value towned a whole lot more. You won't necessarily fold out a hand you beat either.

Winning pots without showdown is good in no limit.

[ QUOTE ]
And the donk lead isnt super weak IMO, there is a big diffrence in min bet leads and like 1/3 size pot leads. A min bet lead I´m raising with 72 off here and expect a fold 99,99% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]40/15 called a 3bet and leads out on this flop. It's weak. If this is how he plays AK/KQ, whatever. I don't think so. Could be up against QQ and in that case raising and betting turn is a major victory (edit: in a 3bet pot I think betting the turn if you get called is fine). Unless you get called down ldo. But if he calls down with QQ then he'll do it with 99 or TT too.

edit: I edited this a lot, heh.

[patrick10]

gfejs

1st- I might have misworded it alittle bit. i did NOT mean that you raise the flop and stack off. i meant you should raise the flop, but FOLD if villain 3 bets. If just called, probably C/F the rest unimproved

as far as the 'super weak', that may have just been my wording as well; but i was refferring to the fact that villain DONK bets
$2.05 into $7.40 on flop
$2.25 into $11.50 on turn
and $3.95 into $16 on river.

they aren't min bets for sure, but they are pretty weak and it seems clear that villain is aiming to get a cheap showdown. I don't know the exact origins of the term, but i assume they are called DONK bets because bad players use them too often and we are supposed to take advantage of them.

RESULTS? i think villain showed up with a Weak K, small PP or A8 kindof hand. Still a fan of raising the flop then C/F later

[gfejs]

Patrick: Yes, I get it /images/graemlins/smile.gif a raise here is a must. I kinda think a raise on the flop and a 2/3 3/4 bet on the turn might be good in this 3bet situation. But it took me like a day too figure it out /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

The thing is like 70% of the villians at 25NL wont fold a k10+ here ever, and too me that bet screams k10+ or lower pp. But in this situation with the 3bet pf I can show alot of power and he might fold a king.

(He had kq and I think he where stacking off, note taken /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

Ah and thx for all the help with the hand. I learnt something.

[patrick10]

cool, no worries

def agree, i doubt many would fold KT+
fwiw i would often play it just like you. if i am playing well then i would raise flop to $6 and check/ fold the rest, saving $2.25 overall.

i don't usually think like this, but a play like that on the flop can help save 10bb of your win rate