50NL: Just giving up in 3b pot when cb is called

[Chomp]

Villain 17/13/2.5, 500 hands
Seems solid and seems to be playing a lot more aggro than those numbers suggest.
Hero 21/17
Hero has been very active, 3betting, opening a lot etc. Villain is definitely aware of this and has been playing back a bit pretty well.

..............................

My question here is about 3b pots: people on 2+2 always talk about spewing in 3b pots and how people don't have a clue how to play in 3b pots.

So what do I do here? Is a double barrell good, or is it spewing in a 3b pot?

And if I were villain, what range SHOULD I be pushing at the end here to make a preflop 3bettor fold? How weak does my turn check look to an ok vilain like this?

Or does he just have a hand?

Thanks.

...............................

$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com (http://weaktight.com/)

Stacks:
UTG (<font color="#0000cc">$49.50</font>)
UTG 1 (<font color="#0000cc">$48.80</font>)
CO (<font color="#0000cc">$93.90</font>)
Hero (<font color="#0000cc">$48.00</font>)
SB (<font color="#0000cc">$61.85</font>)
BB (<font color="#0000cc">$27.90</font>)

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 6 players) Hero is BTN A/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
<font color="#777777">2 folds</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $2</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $6</font>, <font color="#777777">2 folds</font>, CO calls $4

Flop: 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($12.75, 2 players)
CO checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $9</font>, CO calls $9

Turn: J/images/graemlins/club.gif ($30.75, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero checks

River: 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($30.75, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">CO bets $34</font>, <font color="#777777">Hero folds</font>

Final Pot: $63.25

CO wins $63.25 ( won $14.25 )
Hero lost -$15.00

[ama0330]

Standard, you can just check back the flop and fold to pressure if you want, no need to put any more money in. It feels a little weird but its totally fine.

[bazooka87]

His call OOP, combined with decent stats, should indicate that he has a pretty good hand on that flop. I think firing a double barrel on this board is definitely spewy

[Profish2285]

I c/f flop fwiw. Board is too wet to make a c-bet here imo.

[matrix]

Your flop CB is too big. $8 is more than adequate I think.

Fire the dbl barrel on the /images/graemlins/spade.gif turn and call a push - but that board is NOT wet if you take into account what a 17/13's 3bet CALLING range is OOP - he never has a straight or a straight draw here - we have the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif so he almost never has a fd either.

I CB flop and shutdown unless I spike a /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the turn or pick up TPGK+ unless I got a read that villain floats 3bet pots I think a flop CB is standard and reps an OP (as long as we aren't 3betting a huge amount)

nh.

I think he just has a hand - I'd lead AQ+/66+ on this board if I was villain for about 2/3 pot.

[derosnec]

looks good. and i cbet when checked to also.

[Baintz]

Seems standard against a 17/13. I doubt he's floating the flop OOP with nothing if you say he's solid. Turn changes little, so take the free card, you have at least 4 outs here.

[orig!naL]

I agree with Matrix here. How is this a wet flop given villains stats and the pf action? If this is what you consider a wet flop, what are you waiting for 925o?

Assuming I haven't looked spewy in the past and I think I'm being given a decent amount of respect on the table, I'm c-betting here all day long. I would shut down to any action though - I'd most likely put this villain on an over pair or big FD.

[AZplaya]

think about the range that a 17/13 is cold calling a 3 bet pre flop with. I'd say 1010+, maybe AK. Now look at the board. What hands in villian's range is he check folding on this flop? I you need to either check behind flop, or if you decide to bet the flop, do it with the intention of shoving the turn.

[Profish2285]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say 1010+, maybe AK. Now look at the board. What hands in villian's range is he check folding on this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, thank you. This board sucks to bet at but if youre going to do it then just shove this turn and hope it scares him. But I still think checking back here is by far the most optimal play. Everyone keeps saying the board is great to bet at because a 17/13 isnt floating us with sc's. Thats completely true but he IS calling with a range that "hits" that board. There is nothing on that board he should be scared of so a flop bet here is essentially trying to push him off AK and AK only.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
a 17/13 isnt floating us with sc's

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldnt bank on that, either. Most 17/13's I know are closet psychopaths

[Profish2285]

Hes floating sc's oop? I float with those in position and I run at 17/15 but never oop unless Im tilting. But if he is doing that oop, then thats even more of a reason to check back.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Hes floating sc's oop? I float with those in position and I run at 17/15 but never oop unless Im tilting. But if he is doing that oop, then thats even more of a reason to check back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not saying he is, im just saying hes not not.


Anyway, I think this thread is dumb because Chomp is asking us how not to spew in 3bet pots and we are telling him how to do the opposite.

Chomp, cf flop/turn/river is fine.

[Profish2285]

Im not telling him to do the opposite, Im giving the same exact line you just said, c/f.

[ama0330]

I was referring more to the responses above yours.

[Profish2285]

Oh sorry, I got confused as to what was happening right now lol.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
think about the range that a 17/13 is cold calling a 3 bet pre flop with. I'd say 1010+, maybe AK. Now look at the board. What hands in villian's range is he check folding on this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

AK and sometimes JJ. I'd guess that thats about 1/3 of his range. [12 AK combos 6 Jacks 3 Queens 6 Kings 3 Aces - lets discount a few AK's cos he's more likely to 4bet AK as preflop he still has good equity]

Also we 3bet HIM IP - that flop hits our range hard (or it should do)

It depends on our 3betting frequency I suppose - but I don't see why we shouldn't CB this flop with OC's and a bdnfd and rep an OP - planning to push any /images/graemlins/spade.gif/Ace turn and pile the pressure onto villain.

If we are 3betting enough hands IP that we can't rep an OP here with a CB or we gots a read that villain tends to float in 3bet pots then I think c/f is way better cos we turned our hand into a semi bluff preflop and whiffed.

Id also just give up without the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif on this flop. I think the added equity from the nf redraw and a bunch of FE on the scary 3flush turn makes this a profitable spot to CB - if I'm wrong here please can you elaborate.

[AZplaya]

Ya I mean if were gonna rep an overpair then its fine to bet the flop, but then we gotta follow through on the turn. Betting this flop planning to check fold most turns is spew though imo.

[Nick Royale]

Standard. Bet the flop to get him to lay down AK and other whiffed hands crap. Giving him a range of AK/TT+ is too tight without a better read.

Bet any turn Q+ and check blanks and /images/graemlins/spade.gifs behind.