50NL KK

[Panic__NL]

Villian is 46/20/3.6 over 61 hands, the hand before he lost 24bb to me in a pot that was checked down, because a shortie was allin, he had middle pair, I had top pair.
I am 22/20/4.3 and on the table for about 10 orbits


iPoker No-Limit Texas Hold'em (NL50), $0.50 BB (5 handed) SilverKitty Hand History converter (http://www.pokeronline.com.ua/content/view/122/73/) by www.pokeronline.com.ua (http://www.pokeronline.com.ua)

MP3 ($50)
CO($67.22)
Button ($38.24)
SB ($40.65)
Hero($115.79)

SB: Post SB $0.25
Hero: Post BB $0.50
MP3: Post BB $0.50

Preflop:
Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif
MP3 Check
CO Raise $2
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>
Hero Raise $6.75
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>
CO Call $5.25

Flop:($15.25) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif<font color="#0030DD">(2 players)</font>
Hero Check
CO Bet $2.5
Hero Call $2.5

Turn:($20.25) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif<font color="#0030DD">(2 players)</font>
Hero Bet $11
CO Raise $24
Hero?

[Go_BroKe]

What about a flop raise?

EDIT: I mean a flop bet

[Panic__NL]

makes a lot of hands fold that I can get value from on the turn.

[vixticator]

I think when you take this line you have to showdown. The please don't raise me bet on turn you'd only make with intention on shoving or calling a raise, right? Why did you 3bet, c/c lead turn? CO is probably raising the turn really wide, I think most people would in this spot.

[Panic__NL]

I dont think CO is raising very wide, he maybe calling quite wide. But he is raising a range that beats my KK.

[gregorio]

3.6 is pretty agro for a 40+VPIP. Have you seen him way overvalue hands or spew before? It's hard to lay this down vs someone with his stats. Whoa. I am so confused by the way you played the flop. I don't know how to play the hand after checking the flop. Your c/c, lead turn line make no sense, so I can't get any reliable info from the way villain plays the hand, since the way you played it is so odd and they may be reacting to that. Given your line, shove turn since your hand looks like complete BS so villain has no way of putting you on anything.

But please bet this flop.

[vixticator]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think CO is raising very wide, he maybe calling quite wide. But he is raising a range that beats my KK.

[/ QUOTE ]Don't you need to take into account that your line looks incredibly weak? Against a loose aggressive player it's just inducing a raise all day. Unless this is a standard line for you and you know that he knows this... can't fold.

[corsakh]

Flop bet is mandatory. You never know what this tool is calling with, and he certainly is calling with any nine, queen, JT, etc. This board almost certainly hit him and if it did not, you have AK as far as he is concerned.

Btw, whats you sn on iPoker? Pm pls.

[gregorio]

[ QUOTE ]
makes a lot of hands fold that I can get value from on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not betting flop is bad. It makes any info you get from villain after that completely unreliable because your hand is underepped. Villain puts you on AK or JJ. So now it is a guessing game. Is villain actually strong, or just making horrible stabs at the pot because they think you are weak? Since you have no way of knowing, you can't fold.

How does checking the flop get you more value on the turn? You only let him draw to clubs for free. If you want to check flop to get more value, then you have to c/r. too bad you only get villain's joke of a bet. now raise and end it. Yout turn lead is the opposite of trying to get more value. Turn c/r if you want to get really fancy. But I really, really, really hate any line that isn't cbetting flop.

[tweak]

argghhh the min raise wreaks of your beat

I think if you plan to play trickery on the flop, that you will have to be prepared to lay down in this spot. Unless you have seen him min raise bluff.

[Panic__NL]

most pp will fold to a cbet on the flop, if I check he might just call a bet on the turn. I dont cbet the flop for info, I take the line that will get me most value. Betting the flop will make a lot hands fold that I beat.

[corsakh]

No it does not. If he called preflop with 22, he sure is calling a cbet on no A no K board.

[gregorio]

[ QUOTE ]
most pp will fold to a cbet on the flop, if I check he might just call a bet on the turn. I dont cbet the flop for info, I take the line that will get me most value. Betting the flop will make a lot hands fold that I beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so you won't accept the advice of everyone else who posted here,so why even post this? We have no idea how to play the turn given how you played flop. Are you happy with the situation you are in now? Is there any worse scenario possible? Could it have been avoided by betting flop? Did your line give you any value? Can I have your IPoker name too? You are tilting me so much right now.

[gregorio]

Why are you 3betting preflop. That will get a fold more often than your cbet will. Just call pf, call flop, call turn, cr river. There's how you get the value. Don't even worry about what the board is or what villain does.

[vixticator]

[ QUOTE ]
We have no idea how to play the turn given how you played flop. Are you happy with the situation you are in now? Is there any worse scenario possible?

[/ QUOTE ]I don't think this line is worthless, just should be done very very rarely. And, you MUST felt the hand when taking the line. Either shove the turn or call and open shove the river. Not knowing where we are at isn't *that* big of a problem. Have a huge hand and played it for maximum confusion. Going to get paid off pretty wide IMO... unless you do it a lot and they know it.

[gregorio]

I doubt we disagree, but I am just so tilted by OPs reaction to all the advice. Sure, this line is fine if you are committed to your hand. But, if hero is going to take this line "to get maximum value," and then when he gets raised on the turn he is going to think "I dont think CO is raising very wide, he maybe calling quite wide. But he is raising a range that beats my KK," and then think about folding, then hero's line is worthless.

[Panic__NL]

@ gregorio relax man, this forum is for discussion, when I post a hand and I try to explain the way I played it, you all of a sudden think I dont take any advice.
I agree it is not a standard line, but a discussion about this line seems better then just post the hand, listen to what you got to say and close the topic.

If this tilts you already, I love to have your sn on any pokersite.

[gregorio]

[ QUOTE ]

If this tilts you already, I love to have your sn on any pokersite.

[/ QUOTE ]
HU4RLZ!@!@!!!!!!!!!!!11!!1!11!!!

[Panic__NL]

I was about to type something not so nice, but well lets just ignore you. Cant handle a propper discusion it seems.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting the flop will make a lot hands fold that I beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really hate this line of reasoning and I see it everywhere. Its theoretically sound but its fundamentally ridiculous. The point is, you're not trying to "not fold out" worse hands, youre trying to get value from them, and there's a huge difference. You have to decide whether checking is better than betting by asking yourself "is he going to call with XX anyway?" He's going to fold 34o on this board, but so what? Does that mean we should check our overpair? Of course it doesnt.

You dont know what he has, but if he has something like JJ, he wont call without improving anyway, so checking is really awful because it just gives him a free card. On the other hand, if he has JJ with a backdoor flush draw, or some kind of FD or maybe AK with a backdoor draw, you can pressure him into making a mistake by betting, whereas you hand the power to him when you check.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with betting this flop and having him fold.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If this tilts you already, I love to have your sn on any pokersite.

[/ QUOTE ]
HU4RLZ!@!@!!!!!!!!!!!11!!1!11!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

stop being a retard or I will ban you, and panic_nl, dont encourage him.

[gregorio]

it was a [censored] joke. calm down.

[Panic__NL]

sorry for that ama and thanks for youyr explanation, makes sense to me.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
sorry for that ama and thanks for youyr explanation, makes sense to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are welcome. The basic idea behind checking the flop is that you think he wont call a flop bet, but he will call a bet somewhere later on in the hand. The problem with this, especially in 3bet pots, is that the only way your opponent will check the flop then call the turn or river is when he catches his outs (which you gave him for free) to beat you. Better to pressure him into doing something dumb right now.

[Check_The_Nuts]

the only reason to check the flop would be that he would bet with a wider range than he would call with. In other words he'd likely have to bet with all of his open-ender draws/middlepairs/underpairs to the Q/KQ/AQ/QJ. Since he bet like...I don't know wtf that is with his bet size, then I like the flop check less.

I would probably push the turn fearing how hard the river could be to play against him. He may also put you on a draw cause ur line is fishy and stackoff lightly.

[Baintz]

Absolutely bet this flop. It's too drawy to be giving free cards, and a Q is going nowhere. You can't be afraid of scaring away worse hands everytime you have a big hand yourself or you'll just win a small pot, or get outdrawn and lose a big one.
You also bet this flop because presumably you'll be betting it with AK when you DO want a fold.

As played on the turn, I hope you bet small to induce a raise, because I'm shoving over this all day. Your hand is criminally underepped, it looks like you are on a draw and villain may well call with a Q. If he flopped a set, gg him.

[thoman8r]

First off, it's ok to take unorthodox lines sometimes against thinking opponents because we want to mix up our play. Having said that, you need to realize the second you c/c the flop you just pretty much committed yourself to this hand. Push the turn, call the turn. It really doesn't matter because the money's all going in the middle now anyway. Villain's range is so wide, you'll get raised a lot with air here because your line is so weird.