KK check-raised on an TTx flop

[iheartponeez]

Villain is a 19/16 thinker, but I don't think he bluffs much.

$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com (http://weaktight.com/)

Stacks:
UTG (<font color="#0000cc">$55.15</font>)
Hero (<font color="#0000cc">$50.00</font>)
CO (<font color="#0000cc">$54.10</font>)
BTN (<font color="#0000cc">$65.40</font>)
SB (<font color="#0000cc">$45.95</font>)
BB (<font color="#0000cc">$54.85</font>)

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1 K/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif
<font color="#777777">1 fold</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="#777777">2 folds</font>, SB calls $1.75, BB calls $1.5

Flop: T/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($6, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $4</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $8</font>, <font color="#777777">BB folds</font>

Sigh...what's the move and why?

[iheartponeez]

Brump!

[doppelganger]

What's his aggression look like? Any other reads? How does he like to play draws? Have you seen him make similar moves on paired boards against anyone else?

Without any of these reads I will probably try to get to showdown cheaply unless I improve. Call and plan on calling a reasonable bet on a non-heart/non-ace turn.

[winnnar]

Call and re-evaluate turn. If a face card rolls off and he checks, bet and fold to a raise.

This may seem weak, but if he leads out for half the pot or more I would give serious consideration to folding.

[mojed]

Tricky spot, do you think a 19/16 is defending his blind to a UTG raise with JT, QT, KT or AT to a UTG+1 raise? I don't think I would defend with such hands. This could be an underpair deciding this is a good board to take it away from the preflop raisor. That said it's a weak raise, which I don't like. I'm tempted to call it down, hoping to induce an underpair to keep playing with us. A shame if villain has a weirdly played flush draw, probably not a big part his range though.

[Fulzgold]

flop min-raises don't scare me off KK here. What's your table image?

call and re evaluate. you're still ahead of his range.

[Speedlimits]

call

[storman99]

i don't like calling here i would reraise to $18
and if villain pushes back then fold.

if you call the $4 villain might check it down.
if you call the $4 will you call $7 to $10 on the turn [yes]
if you call the $7 to $10 on the turn villain might check the river. but what bet will you call on the river if villain bets.

that is why I'd rather lose $14 if villain pushes back on the flop then calling it down and lose $14 to $20 or more to a set of tens or a flopped full house.
There is to many scary cards that could come any A and any heart.
unless if villain is very tight after the flop c/f

[mojed]

I guess your suggestion is a "find out where we're at" type of raise. I get the feeling these have gone out of fashion, nowadays people are more concerned about hand ranges.

If we put 14 dollars in now by raising, we are probably folding out the hands we beat, while the hands that have us beat remain. So we narrow the villain's range to hands we beat, if called, otherwise we win the pot. It's kinda WA/WB if we reraise.

If we call and villain bets 16, villain's range is wider, he could be double barreling with an underpair. We can call, and we've only invested 6 dollars more than we would have had we raised to 18 on the flop, but now we have a much greater chance of winning.

[Briman51]

He's giving us odds of 4.5:1 so there's no way we're folding here.

Call or raise?

His range conatins mostly pockets, blufss and hearts.

5% Against bluffs we want to call do induce another bluff.
20% Against hearts we want to reraise to kill his implied odds.
50% Against pockets we want to put in a small reraise/call to extract as much value as possible from the hand.
25% Against trips we want to fold.

Which means that we should probably call hoping to extract value from his pockets, reevaluating if a heart or ace comes and folding if he makes two big bets.

[Profish2285]

Standard WA/WB time, just call down on any non heart or possibly A turn and river.

[ama0330]

All those saying call, do you fold a /images/graemlins/heart.gif turn if he leads?

[Profish2285]

[ QUOTE ]
just call down on any non heart

[/ QUOTE ]

If he is leading a heart then he isnt afraid of it but he should be. If someone is still leading on a scare card more often than not I would think that either that card helped them or they were strong enough where they dont even care about it.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just call down on any non heart

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

So if we think he has a FD then shouldnt we be raising the flop again, especially if we are paying off Tx or 44 anyway when the heart doesnt hit?

[Profish2285]

Well Im not saying he has a flush draw only, obviously thats hard to tell from our spot. But I do think a flush draw is a part of his range. Those min c/r could mean alot however. It could also be a ten or a mid pocket pair. I think raising while it has its merits will blow him off the mid pocket pairs which could give us action. The tens will win the maximum off us. While a raise would protect us against a fd, I think the benefits of calling outweigh the benefits of raising. Honestly, in a vacuum, I would probably call a heart turn and fold most rivers depending on bet sizing, but it varies so much. I think the standard play here is to call down barring any heart though in general.

[corsakh]

Question is, do we call the river.

[Profish2285]

Well its definitely close either way I would think. Im going to guess that villain will bluff a whiffed draw or bet some random pair often enough to make a call profitable. Again it really depends on bet sizing though because if hes betting all 3 streets youre probably behind more often than youre ahead.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Well Im not saying he has a flush draw only, obviously thats hard to tell from our spot. But I do think a flush draw is a part of his range. Those min c/r could mean alot however. It could also be a ten or a mid pocket pair. I think raising while it has its merits will blow him off the mid pocket pairs which could give us action. The tens will win the maximum off us. While a raise would protect us against a fd, I think the benefits of calling outweigh the benefits of raising. Honestly, in a vacuum, I would probably call a heart turn and fold most rivers depending on bet sizing, but it varies so much. I think the standard play here is to call down barring any heart though in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

It just seems to me as though if I am villain, I should be raising any two cards then betting the turn because you can't continue, and Im trying to think about a way to stop that as hero. I personally am happy to go broke against 44/Tx on this flop because Tx is a dumb call from the blinds and he can have JJ/QQ/FD which may put more money in on the flop but not the turn. I think the main thing is that I dont want to call twice on turn and river blanks and I definitely don't want to fold.

[corsakh]

Two thingies.

If he can have a T, he can have a flush draw.
If he can't have a T, he can't have a flush draw.

But

He can have a T because the pot is overlimped, its cheap for him and he has relative position.

[Profish2285]

I agree that calling is the suck and so is folding but dont you think raising and trying to get it in will fold out those random 77-JJ? As far as betting ATC so I cant continue, again that is why I would probably call any turn and fold on a decent number of rivers assuming a heart hit at some point and bet sizing. With that said, I dont think its too big of a concern because most villains arent thinking this way and he really has no idea what we hold.

[ QUOTE ]
Two thingies.

If he can have a T, he can have a flush draw.
If he can't have a T, he can't have a flush draw.

But

He can have a T because the pot is overlimped, its cheap for him and he has relative position.

[/ QUOTE ]

So he could also have a fd and mid pocket pair, no? I could be off here I just feel like we get max value by calling and lose the most by raising.

[Don Melchor]

I think he had a middle pair, and with the minny raise he was testing the field.....

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that calling is the suck and so is folding but dont you think raising and trying to get it in will fold out those random 77-JJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but this doesnt really matter because its pretty unlikely that 77-JJ will VPIP again on later streets after the flop action, so its not about "not folding them out", its about getting max value. If they are folding they are folding, there's no point giving them a free card

[Profish2285]

The problem is he rarely has JJ and QQ so his pairs do consist of medium ones mostly.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is he rarely has JJ and QQ so his pairs do consist of medium ones mostly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but if he folds 77 on the flop he folds it on the turn and if he calls it on the flop he calls it on the turn so the net difference between betting and checking is that we give him a free card

[Profish2285]

Why do you think that though? Many times people will make this move and fire turn again with most their range. He could easily think he is protecting his pair or choosing to continue this bluff or semi bluff. I dont think he will vpip anymore money in with mid pockets if we raise him but I dont see why he wouldnt at least bet the turn again with most of the hands he does this with on the flop. Thats why I call the turn bet more than likely and fold to a river bet. He would have to be a maniac or really strong to fire f/t/r.

[Briman51]

I think it's more likely that he'll get it in with a mid-pair on the flop. This is because any overcard to his pair is a scare card. This means we should raise the flop if enough of his range contains a pocket pair.

I'm raising this flop

[jasonfish11]

Dont mean to hijack, but I was just about to post a question with the same situation. Here is how it played out for me.

6 people no reads I just sat down. $25NL
villain has $33
I have $25

UTG MP fold
Hero (CO) dealt A /images/graemlins/club.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif raises to $1
BTN folds
SB folds
BB calls

Flop
J /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif
BB checks, Hero bets $2, BB raises to $4, Hero raises to $10, BB shoves, Hero folds. BB shows Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I liked a smallish raises that doesnt really commit me if I get reraised. I knew that raise would give me all the info I needed and I dont really lose a lot if he shoves over the top. I liked that better than just calling down. I wanted to know on that flop where I stood and I found out by raising. I hate calling in spots like this. I may start to mix in calling here with the arguments yall have given for it but I really hate not having any new information on villains hand.