25NL: Min 3-bet pot 3-way

[Shattered]

Third orbit on the table. Button seems tight-ish, SB seems loose/donkish.

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LeggoPoker.com (http://www.leggopoker.com) - Hand History Converter (http://www.leggopoker.com/hh)

SB: $10.80
BB: $25.75
Hero (UTG): $27.10
BTN: $43.85

Pre-Flop: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $1.75</font>, SB calls $1.65, BB folds, Hero calls $0.75

Flop: ($5.50) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $5</font>, SB calls $5, Hero folds

Standard?

[Profish2285]

If youre not comfortable getting the stacks in the middle on this flop then just fold pf.

[anthb7210p]

I think you can call this with the FD on the board, but if BTN fires pot again on the turn i would fold. The thing that makes these min3bets difficult is that villan will do it with such a wide range, but I think you almost always have odds to call.

[Shattered]

[ QUOTE ]
If youre not comfortable getting the stacks in the middle on this flop then just fold pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems like really bad advice. Basically, you're telling me to fold preflop or stack off if I hit a pair? I'd like to hear the logic behind that.

Furthermore, is folding preflop here correct against basically an unknown? It seems kind of preposterous getting those huge odds.

[Profish2285]

Okay here it is: What flops are you looking for with this hand, two pair, straights, trips? If youre going to take that approach then you could do this with atc. KQ is a high card hand, meaning when you hit a pair it is usually good. (Obviously such a broad statement varies greatly, but hopefully you get the point) Pretty much you hit one of the better flops youre going to hit for your hand and you still dont know what to do. You have tpgk on a drawy board with a c-bet from one villain and a cold call. The c-bet could be whatever and the cold call could easily be a draw. Im getting my stack in now due to all the bad turn cards. But like I said, if youre afraid to play for stacks with this flop, then fold pf. It seems to me that youre afraid of what, AQ/QQ/KK/AA? Well if thats the range you put villain on then its time to go away pf. Im assuming thats not the range you put villain on so bombs away on the flop.

[Profish2285]

Oh and I dont think a fold pf is terrible at all, especially since you have some guy cold calling a 3 bet. This isnt limit and the villains arent going to check down to the river letting the hands lay where they are. Your hand is heavily behind their range and you are strongly on your way to RIO land. You should now see that this statement holds true as youre afraid to get the money in on a relatively good flop for you.

[Shattered]

No, the range I put villain on preflop is extremely wide. After he pots the 3-way flop, the range tightens dramatically. Yes, I'm afraid of QQ+, AQ because that's the majority of his range after an unknown min 3-bets and pots the flop; it could be air, obviously, but he's probably not doing it with QJ or 99.

I agree that this is one of the best flops I could hope for hand strength-wise, but he's min 3-bet and shown massive strength on the flop. Are you saying that you should always get it all in with TPGK on dry boards against unknowns? That seems very bad to me. If he's even somewhat reasonable he's never stacking off with worse, so basically if I check-raise I'm hoping he's retarded and will get it all in with QJ, JJ, or AK (which there's no evidence to support). Otherwise, he's folding his air and stacking me with his good hands: Check-raising is essentially spew.

That said, I'm thinking that calling and reevaluating turn would be better if it was a heads up pot because of the time's it's a c-bet, but SB's call confuses the issue. More advice would be highly appreciated.

[Shattered]

You really think KQo is way behind a min-3bet and a loose/donkish player's call?

[Profish2285]

I had this whole long post typed but I think its pointless. Lemme just clarify this, I NEVER said that you should always stack off with TPGK on dry boards. The board isnt dry so there is value in protection and the whole hand is going to be very difficult to play as youre facing RIO. But if youre going to play the hand and get to the flop this way then c/r&gt;fold&gt;call imo. Oh and me saying youre facing RIO means that yes, youre behind villains range and when you hit youre either going to win the minimum when youre ahead or lose the most when youre behind.

[Shattered]

Could you please give me an example of a hand that calls and doesn't crush me (or is flipping) when I check-raise, or a proposed range PF that is so obviously way ahead of KQo given the reads and information? It seems like you're just saying things instead of actually providing evidence for it.

The one part of your posts I agree with is that preflop is a potential fold due to RIO, but everything else seems ridiculous; for example, saying that I need to raise to protect against draws when it's, I repeat, not a wet board, and when every draw is flipping with me anyways.

[gfejs]

Oh well, I agree with both of you /images/graemlins/smile.gif. According too your reads I would have raised this spot. BTN is only CBing he could honestly have anything and SB is a donk calling with any 2 here, hence you should put some money in. There is nothing in this hand that tells you you are behind accept the min 3-bet preflop. So what you need too know is what the villian is min 3 betting with...

Oh and SB is calling with like any peice on this board IMO. Calling here is spew.

TBH I would have lead this flop and if raised I had folded.

[CubicZirconia]

It might be weak, but I would probably fold this preflop, especially since the button is a tightish player. KQo is easily dominated and you are out of position. Even for a min-raise, there aren't a lot of flops I'd get excited about here.

As played, I would definitely not check fold the flop. If you were check folding this flop, what were you hoping for preflop? Trips?

Bet the flop, and fold if you get raised. Putting in more than one bet on the flop is basically committing yourself, and I don't know that I'd want to do that here. SPR is ~4.6, and I don't know if I'm happy about getting my money in.

[Burcak]

How is this board drawy? Just a flush draw doesn't make a board drawy. JT, 9T have gutshots and that's it.

I agree with the call pf, you don't know whether or not he will continue against 2 players, SB's range is pocket pairs/suited junk mostly imo, initial minraiser's range is very player dependant. It could still be any pocket pair, AK, Axs, and it also depends on how bored he is of you raising his button.

I would raise like 2/3 pot and fold to any raise/pretty much shutdown on call if I don't improve.

Tbh, lately I saw a lot of people who min raised pf with a lot of hands like donks min raise with AA.