Came Across an Interesting Book...

[Splendour]

yesterday by E.W. Bullinger, the son of a famous Swiss reformer. The name of the book was entitled <u>Number in Scripture</u>. I was wondering if any of the SMP math guys had read this and could give me better info on it. I kind of gave it a cursory look. The book had so many puncuation and technical notes that it was a print editors nightmare so I only picked out one or two things, but apparently the author of the book contends that you can find intelligent design in the scripture of biblical numbers. Now if the bible was a hoax who would put that much work into it? Isn't this an unexplored avenue of intelligent design?

Just for some additional info. Here is Barnes &amp; Noble's synopsis on the book?

"Synopsis
Six hundred and sixty six is "the number of a name." When the name of Antichrist is known its gematria will doubtless be found to be the number 666.~~~ This may be the most famous number in the Bible, but it is by no means the only number to be found therein. Number in Scripture provides a complete and exhaustive synopsis of the spiritual significance of every number found in the Bible. This classic reference book on biblical numerology is one of the most famous and helpful reference books on numerology ever written. E. W. [ETHELBERT WILLIAM] BULLINGER (1837-1913) was a Vicar of the Church of England, a Biblical scholar, and dispensationalist theologian. Educated at King's College, London, he was a recognized scholar in the field of biblical languages. In 1881, the Archbishop of Canterbury granted him an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree in recognition of his biblical scholarship. Bullinger also wrote the notes and appendixes of The Companion Bible and is the author of numerous other works including Commentary on Revelation, Great Cloud of Witnesses, and How to Enjoy the Bible. "

An interesting wiki link to what "gematria" is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria

[Splendour]

Of course I had an interesting question crop up in my mind this morning as I thought about this book as some kind of biblical geometry/numerology.

So I looked up the birth of geometry. Wiki traces the birth of geometry to Thales of Miletus around 6 century B.C.
while wiki says about the OT: Most scholars agree that the Old Testament was composed and compiled between the 12th and the 2nd century BC.
Not sure where I'm going with this since there's probably more to the history of geometry but its an interesting fact.

[Kaj]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course I had an interesting question crop up in my mind this morning as I thought about this book as some kind of biblical geometry/numerology.

So I looked up the birth of geometry. Wiki traces the birth of geometry to Thales of Miletus around 6 century B.C.
while wiki says about the OT: Most scholars agree that the Old Testament was composed and compiled between the 12th and the 2nd century BC.
Not sure where I'm going with this since there's probably more to the history of geometry but its an interesting fact.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please show how a single geometric identity or axiom can be derived from the Bible.

Or I'll even lower the bar: Please explain what "some kind of biblical geometry" even means.

By the way, my post clearly has some kind of message board geometry. I'll let others elaborate.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Now if the bible was a hoax who would put that much work into it? Isn't this an unexplored avenue of intelligent design?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this can all be summed up by "wow."

Its interesting that Splendour finds a book SHE HASN'T read provocative enough that it may be proof of Intelligent design!!??!

[Kaj]

[ QUOTE ]
but apparently the author of the book contends that you can find intelligent design in the scripture of biblical numbers. Now if the bible was a hoax who would put that much work into it? Isn't this an unexplored avenue of intelligent design?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are right!!!

The bible does look to be "designed" by some intelligent being.

After much thinking about this... My guess would be men were somehow involved in the process.

[Johnny Drama]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000OYC7BW.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course I had an interesting question crop up in my mind this morning as I thought about this book as some kind of biblical geometry/numerology.

So I looked up the birth of geometry. Wiki traces the birth of geometry to Thales of Miletus around 6 century B.C.
while wiki says about the OT: Most scholars agree that the Old Testament was composed and compiled between the 12th and the 2nd century BC.
Not sure where I'm going with this since there's probably more to the history of geometry but its an interesting fact.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please show how a single geometric identity or axiom can be derived from the Bible.

Or I'll even lower the bar: Please explain what "some kind of biblical geometry" even means.

By the way, my post clearly has some kind of message board geometry. I'll let others elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is something you're interested in having proved I suggest you prove or disprove it yourself. I looked up the dates question because the wiki article said a Pythagorean motto used to be "God is a Geometer". In fact this whole thread was for math guys input and something new to examine. I specifically said numerology/geometry. I'm not sure myself about the geometry link, but the bible seems to like to use numbers and that book I cited contends there is a pattern to the numbers.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

Or I'll even lower the bar: Please explain what "some kind of biblical geometry" even means.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pi = 3.

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Or I'll even lower the bar: Please explain what "some kind of biblical geometry" even means.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pi = 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks gump.

I just came across this site on theomatics. Apparently there are different schools of bible numerology: bible code, ELS, theomatics, gematria are some. Some are new schools like theomatics while gematria are the older school.

http://theomatics.com

A quote from the "what is theomatics" page of the site:
"In theomatics, people can learn how God has written His entire Word mathematically, because existing inside the Bible there is a mathematical design. This design is the watermark that reveals God's divine authorship. No other work of literature ever written, apparently, contains anything that closely resembles theomatics. It is totally unique to the 66 books of the Bible."

[Limesparks]

i clicked that link and i gotta say that website just screams scientific rigor

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
i clicked that link and i gotta say that website just screams scientific rigor

[/ QUOTE ]

I know. I didn't like the graphics either but I did see Bullinger's name in the teeny tiny print way down at the bottom of the homepage.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue"> Now if the bible was a hoax who would put that much work into it? </font>

Even I woudn't say the bible (OT) is a hoax. It's a literary masterpiece. It's just that there isn't an ounce of truth to it.

[Lestat]

I hear the 8 track player is gonna make a comeback. Why am I getting the urge to sell you a truckload of them at a great price?

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
I hear the 8 track player is gonna make a comeback. Why am I getting the urge to sell you a truckload of them at a great price?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well since you're soon to be one of the most biblically knowledgable atheists in the world you can thank me in heaven if you manage to act on scripture enough to get there. I hear heaven is wired for surround sound so I pass on your most generous offer to provide me with 8 track tapes. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Or I'll even lower the bar: Please explain what "some kind of biblical geometry" even means.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pi = 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 Chronicles 4:2 "Also he [Solomon] made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."

Score one significant figure for God, good enough for government work amirite?

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Or I'll even lower the bar: Please explain what "some kind of biblical geometry" even means.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pi = 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 Chronicles 4:2 "Also he [Solomon] made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."

Score one significant figure for God, good enough for government work amirite?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that God's version of a geometry proof? Sounds a little bit like a land assessor calculating lot dimensions.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Or I'll even lower the bar: Please explain what "some kind of biblical geometry" even means.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pi = 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 Chronicles 4:2 "Also he [Solomon] made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."

Score one significant figure for God, good enough for government work amirite?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that God's version of a geometry proof? Sounds a little bit like a land assessor calculating lot dimensions.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that if a cylindrical vat is 10 cubits across, it'll be 31.4 cubits around. Does it trouble you that the creator of the universe would make such a simple mistake?

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> Now if the bible was a hoax who would put that much work into it? </font>

Even I woudn't say the bible (OT) is a hoax. It's a literary masterpiece. It's just that there isn't an ounce of truth to it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Its amazing that some people like spendid who are so credulous about some of the nonsense in the bible and the book in the op suddenly become skeptical about anything that doesn't suit them.

Though I doubt the bible is a hoax (bits of it may me). The alternative to hoax is not ID.

chez

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Or I'll even lower the bar: Please explain what "some kind of biblical geometry" even means.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pi = 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 Chronicles 4:2 "Also he [Solomon] made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."

Score one significant figure for God, good enough for government work amirite?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that God's version of a geometry proof? Sounds a little bit like a land assessor calculating lot dimensions.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that if a cylindrical vat is 10 cubits across, it'll be 31.4 cubits around. Does it trouble you that the creator of the universe would make such a simple mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not. Nitpicking will get you nowhere. I find him in the sweep of things. But if you want to be anal. Take a look at an ant. One of the tiniest of creatures but God made it the mightiest since it can carry more than 3 times its own weight something even an elephant can't do.
Read the book of Job. See God's reply. When you can do what God does then you can question him, but not until then. Until then you just pray for guidance.

Here's my favorite Christian joke:

One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.

The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."

God listened very patiently and kindly to the man. After the scientist was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this?

Let's say we have a man-making contest." To which the scientist replied, "Okay, great!"

But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."

The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.

God looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!"

[mbillie1]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course not. Nitpicking will get you nowhere. I find him in the sweep of things. But if you want to be anal. Take a look at an ant. One of the tiniest of creatures but God made it the mightiest since it can carry more than 3 times its own weight something even an elephant can't do.
Read the book of Job. See God's reply. When you can do what God does then you can question him, but not until then. Until then you just pray for guidance.

Here's my favorite Christian joke:

One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.

The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."

God listened very patiently and kindly to the man. After the scientist was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this?

Let's say we have a man-making contest." To which the scientist replied, "Okay, great!"

But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."

The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.

God looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!"

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the point of you even posting stuff like this? Like why bother?

Also, doesn't being arrogant and judgmental go against the principles of Christianity that you claim to affirm?

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

The point is that if a cylindrical vat is 10 cubits across, it'll be 31.4 cubits around. Does it trouble you that the creator of the universe would make such a simple mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]

Except, of course, you're making the exact same flavor of mistake.

I obviously enjoyed the opportunity to make a cheap joke but I think that people generally make too much of the "pi = 3" business.

[Splendour]

Quote: "What is the point of you even posting stuff like this? Like why bother?

Also, doesn't being arrogant and judgmental go against the principles of Christianity that you claim to affirm? "


Is there ever any point to humor? I just thought it was a funny joke. Sorry if I came across as judgmental. I just thought a few of the guys on here were big enough to laugh. It is a funny joke unless you take yourself too seriously.

[mbillie1]

[ QUOTE ]
It is a funny joke unless you take yourself too seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has nothing to do with taking yourself seriously... it's just an awful joke. A Down's patient on mushrooms wouldn't laugh at that joke. The arrogant comment was directed at your remarks preceding the joke, "until you can do that god can..." etc. Is that the christian way to act? Judging people?

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is a funny joke unless you take yourself too seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has nothing to do with taking yourself seriously... it's just an awful joke. A Down's patient on mushrooms wouldn't laugh at that joke. The arrogant comment was directed at your remarks preceding the joke, "until you can do that god can..." etc. Is that the christian way to act? Judging people?

[/ QUOTE ]

That wasn't a judgmental response it was an honest perspective. A bump on a road doesn't mean its not a road.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]

Of course not. Nitpicking will get you nowhere. I find him in the sweep of things. But if you want to be anal. Take a look at an ant. One of the tiniest of creatures but God made it the mightiest since it can carry more than 3 times its own weight something even an elephant can't do.
Read the book of Job. See God's reply. When you can do what God does then you can question him, but not until then. Until then you just pray for guidance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've read the book of Job. It's a joke of a book. Somehow God feels he has to prove himself to Satan and makes a bet that Job would still be a good man without all of his possessions. So God gives Satan the power to make Job's life miserable for a while, and this includes killing all of Job's children. Of course in the end God makes everything right again by giving Job more prosperity than he originally had, but they kind of ignore the part where his KIDS ARE STILL DEAD. But that's ok too because he has new children and his daughters are beautiful, and since children are obviously replaceable possessions everything must be fine.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hear the 8 track player is gonna make a comeback. Why am I getting the urge to sell you a truckload of them at a great price?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well since you're soon to be one of the most biblically knowledgable atheists in the world you can thank me in heaven if you manage to act on scripture enough to get there. I hear heaven is wired for surround sound so I pass on your most generous offer to provide me with 8 track tapes. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You're probably kidding, but I really am doing some reading. Right I'm on a book about historical Jesus. It's really quite fascinating! Did you know that no one who knew him ever wrote anything down? It was all passed on as stories from one person to another until someone finally decided to write something at least 60 years after his death. And even then, it wasn't until many, many, many years later until a non-Christian wrote anything about Jesus.

The bottom line is that not only isn't there any credible evidence he was divine, but there's no evidence at all that he even claimed to be divine! Several accounts tell of Jesus speaking about the "Son of Man", but never did he refer to himself as the "Son of God" (although he refer to God as the father).

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Of course not. Nitpicking will get you nowhere. I find him in the sweep of things. But if you want to be anal. Take a look at an ant. One of the tiniest of creatures but God made it the mightiest since it can carry more than 3 times its own weight something even an elephant can't do.
Read the book of Job. See God's reply. When you can do what God does then you can question him, but not until then. Until then you just pray for guidance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've read the book of Job. It's a joke of a book. Somehow God feels he has to prove himself to Satan and makes a bet that Job would still be a good man without all of his possessions. So God gives Satan the power to make Job's life miserable for a while, and this includes killing all of Job's children. Of course in the end God makes everything right again by giving Job more prosperity than he originally had, but they kind of ignore the part where his KIDS ARE STILL DEAD. But that's ok too because he has new children and his daughters are beautiful, and since children are obviously replaceable possessions everything must be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you ever try looking at it from God's perspective? He can let all those kids into heaven and Job will eventually see them all for all eternity.

But the point of Job is more about all the people who surround you with advice. Sometimes the advice sounds good, sometimes it annoys you, sometimes its a bunch of windbag platitudes, but God says take your problems to God.

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hear the 8 track player is gonna make a comeback. Why am I getting the urge to sell you a truckload of them at a great price?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well since you're soon to be one of the most biblically knowledgable atheists in the world you can thank me in heaven if you manage to act on scripture enough to get there. I hear heaven is wired for surround sound so I pass on your most generous offer to provide me with 8 track tapes. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You're probably kidding, but I really am doing some reading. Right I'm on a book about historical Jesus. It's really quite fascinating! Did you know that no one who knew him ever wrote anything down? It was all passed on as stories from one person to another until someone finally decided to write something at least 60 years after his death. And even then, it wasn't until many, many, many years later until a non-Christian wrote anything about Jesus.

The bottom line is that not only isn't there any credible evidence he was divine, but there's no evidence at all that he even claimed to be divine! Several accounts tell of Jesus speaking about the "Son of Man", but never did he refer to himself as the "Son of God" (although he refer to God as the father).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'd have to go back to the OT and read some passages. "Son of Man" is probably an OT pseudonym for the Messaiah, but check out what Peter says in the New Testament regarding Jesus's divinity.

I believe I read somewheres as regards religious texts that many religions that pre-dated Christianity had even longer gaps between the writing of their texts than the gap in the writing of the New Testament. On top of that biblical scholars differ on the actual dating of the Gospels. Some date it earlier than others.

[Lestat]

There has always been a big to-do about whether or not Jesus should be considered divine (obviously, since this is the only real difference between Christianity and Judaism). There was one gospel -I forget which one- that makes no mention of a virgin birth, etc.

There are also many different account of the ressurection, with one having an 8 story tall Jesus coming back from the dead.

There's no doubt about it... Jesus was and continues to be one of the most memorable and talked about people in all of history. And I have to admit, it seems he was a pretty remarkable guy. But...

It's just unimaginable to me how people who have actually read what we really do and do not know about Jesus, can believe what they do about Him. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if most people WERE to actually read up on it, they wouldn't believe most of is said aboutu Him in the NT. You simply couldn't.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> Now if the bible was a hoax who would put that much work into it? </font>

Even I woudn't say the bible (OT) is a hoax. It's a literary masterpiece. It's just that there isn't an ounce of truth to it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Its amazing that some people like spendid who are so credulous about some of the nonsense in the bible and the book in the op suddenly become skeptical about anything that doesn't suit them.

Though I doubt the bible is a hoax (bits of it may me). The alternative to hoax is not ID.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to gossip, but it truly is quite an amazing thing, and one reason I continue to stay on this forum is to try and understand why this is.

To base your entire world view on stories written2000 years year ago, by ancient man who didn't know the shape of the planet he stood on, and then to show unwavering incredulity over current day scientists on biological evolution.... I mean, it makes no sense and like I said... It's an amazing thing.

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
There has always been a big to-do about whether or not Jesus should be considered divine (obviously, since this is the only real difference between Christianity and Judaism). There was one gospel -I forget which one- that makes no mention of a virgin birth, etc.

There are also many different account of the ressurection, with one having an 8 story tall Jesus coming back from the dead.

There's no doubt about it... Jesus was and continues to be one of the most memorable and talked about people in all of history. And I have to admit, it seems he was a pretty remarkable guy. But...

It's just unimaginable to me how people who have actually read what we really do and do not know about Jesus, can believe what they do about Him. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if most people WERE to actually read up on it, they wouldn't believe most of is said aboutu Him in the NT. You simply couldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well here's an excerpt that just about covers things:

Jesus Christ - the Son of God?
As we face the claims of Christ, there are only four possibilities. He was either a liar, a lunatic, a legend, or the Truth. If we say He is not the Truth, we are automatically affirming one of the other three alternatives, whether we realize it or not.

(1) One possibility is that Jesus lied when He said He was God--that He knew He was not God, but deliberately deceived His hearers to lend authority to His teaching. Few, if any, seriously hold this position. Even those who deny His deity affirm that He was a great moral teacher. They fail to realize those two statements are a contradiction. Jesus could hardly be a great moral teacher if, on the most crucial point of His teaching--His identity--He was a deliberate liar.

(2) A kinder, though no less shocking possibility, is that He was sincere but self-deceived. We have a name for a person today who thinks he is God. That name is lunatic, and it certainly would apply to Christ if He were deceived on this all-important issue. But as we look at the life of Christ, we see no evidence of the abnormality and imbalance we find in a deranged person. Rather, we find the greatest composure under pressure.

(3) The third alternative is that all of the talk about His claiming to be God is a legend--that what actually happened was that His enthusiastic followers, in the third and fourth centuries, put words into His mouth He would have been shocked to hear. Were He to return, He would immediately repudiate them.

The legend theory has been significantly refuted by many discoveries of modern archeology. These have conclusively shown that the four biographies of Christ were written within the lifetime of contemporaries of Christ. Some time ago Dr. William F. Albright, world-famous archaeologist now retired from Johns Hopkins University, said that there was no reason to believe that any of the Gospels were written later than A.D. 70. For a mere legend about Christ, in the form of the Gospel, to have gained the circulation and to have had the impact it had, without one shred of basis in fact, is incredible.

For this to have happened would be as fantastic as for someone in our own time to write a biography of the late John F. Kennedy and in it say he claimed to be God, to forgive people's sins, and to have risen from the dead. Such a story is so wild it would never get off the ground because there are still too many people around who knew Kennedy. The legend theory does not hold water in the light of the early date of the Gospel manuscripts.

(4) The only other alternative is that Jesus spoke the truth. From one point of view, however, claims don't mean much. Talk is cheap. Anyone can make claims. There have been others who have claimed to be God. I could claim to be God, and you could claim to be God, but the question all of us must answer is, "What credentials do we bring to substantiate our claim?" In my case it wouldn't take you five minutes to disprove my claim. It probably wouldn't take too much more to dispose of yours. But when it comes to Jesus of Nazareth, it's not so simple. He had the credentials to back up His claim. He said, "Even though you do not believe Me, believe the evidence of the miracles, that you may learn and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father" (John 10:38).

excerpted from: http://www.everystudent.com/features/fai...KWID=3466919512 (http://www.everystudent.com/features/faith.html?OVRAW=historical%20Jesus&amp;OVKEY=historic al%20jesus&amp;OVMTC=standard&amp;OVADID=610484512&amp;OVKWID= 3466919512)

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
but God says take your problems to God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the proper phrasing -

Splendour says, "God says take your problems to god", while acknowledging that there is no reason for anyone to think that Splndour speaks for god.

luckyme

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There has always been a big to-do about whether or not Jesus should be considered divine (obviously, since this is the only real difference between Christianity and Judaism). There was one gospel -I forget which one- that makes no mention of a virgin birth, etc.

There are also many different account of the ressurection, with one having an 8 story tall Jesus coming back from the dead.

There's no doubt about it... Jesus was and continues to be one of the most memorable and talked about people in all of history. And I have to admit, it seems he was a pretty remarkable guy. But...

It's just unimaginable to me how people who have actually read what we really do and do not know about Jesus, can believe what they do about Him. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if most people WERE to actually read up on it, they wouldn't believe most of is said aboutu Him in the NT. You simply couldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well here's an excerpt that just about covers things:

Jesus Christ - the Son of God?
As we face the claims of Christ, there are only four possibilities. He was either a liar, a lunatic, a legend, or the Truth. If we say He is not the Truth, we are automatically affirming one of the other three alternatives, whether we realize it or not.

(1) One possibility is that Jesus lied when He said He was God--that He knew He was not God, but deliberately deceived His hearers to lend authority to His teaching. Few, if any, seriously hold this position. Even those who deny His deity affirm that He was a great moral teacher. They fail to realize those two statements are a contradiction. Jesus could hardly be a great moral teacher if, on the most crucial point of His teaching--His identity--He was a deliberate liar.

(2) A kinder, though no less shocking possibility, is that He was sincere but self-deceived. We have a name for a person today who thinks he is God. That name is lunatic, and it certainly would apply to Christ if He were deceived on this all-important issue. But as we look at the life of Christ, we see no evidence of the abnormality and imbalance we find in a deranged person. Rather, we find the greatest composure under pressure.

(3) The third alternative is that all of the talk about His claiming to be God is a legend--that what actually happened was that His enthusiastic followers, in the third and fourth centuries, put words into His mouth He would have been shocked to hear. Were He to return, He would immediately repudiate them.

The legend theory has been significantly refuted by many discoveries of modern archeology. These have conclusively shown that the four biographies of Christ were written within the lifetime of contemporaries of Christ. Some time ago Dr. William F. Albright, world-famous archaeologist now retired from Johns Hopkins University, said that there was no reason to believe that any of the Gospels were written later than A.D. 70. For a mere legend about Christ, in the form of the Gospel, to have gained the circulation and to have had the impact it had, without one shred of basis in fact, is incredible.

For this to have happened would be as fantastic as for someone in our own time to write a biography of the late John F. Kennedy and in it say he claimed to be God, to forgive people's sins, and to have risen from the dead. Such a story is so wild it would never get off the ground because there are still too many people around who knew Kennedy. The legend theory does not hold water in the light of the early date of the Gospel manuscripts.

(4) The only other alternative is that Jesus spoke the truth. From one point of view, however, claims don't mean much. Talk is cheap. Anyone can make claims. There have been others who have claimed to be God. I could claim to be God, and you could claim to be God, but the question all of us must answer is, "What credentials do we bring to substantiate our claim?" In my case it wouldn't take you five minutes to disprove my claim. It probably wouldn't take too much more to dispose of yours. But when it comes to Jesus of Nazareth, it's not so simple. He had the credentials to back up His claim. He said, "Even though you do not believe Me, believe the evidence of the miracles, that you may learn and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father" (John 10:38).

excerpted from: http://www.everystudent.com/features/fai...KWID=3466919512 (http://www.everystudent.com/features/faith.html?OVRAW=historical%20Jesus&amp;OVKEY=historic al%20jesus&amp;OVMTC=standard&amp;OVADID=610484512&amp;OVKWID= 3466919512)

[/ QUOTE ]

You SERIOUSLY cant come up with more alternatives than this? And didnt it used to be only 3 possibilities? This time next year is it going to be 5? Stop reducing this to shallow platitudes. There are far more than 4 possible options.

Its funny though, the power of this argument is premised on the idea that we would all be so afraid to call him a liar or something.

The bolded part is especially ludicrous.

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but God says take your problems to God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the proper phrasing -

Splendour says, "God says take your problems to god", while acknowledging that there is no reason for anyone to think that Splndour speaks for god.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so luckyme. I just tried to give a shortened interpretation of a difficult bible book. But here's some scripture verses that puts things into perspective:

Job 40 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson



Job 40

1-2God then confronted Job directly: : "Now what do you have to say for yourself?
Are you going to haul me, the Mighty One, into court and press charges?"
Job Answers God
I'm Ready to Shut Up and Listen
3-5 Job answered:
"I'm speechless, in awe—words fail me.
I should never have opened my mouth!
I've talked too much, way too much.
I'm ready to shut up and listen."

God's Second Set of Questions
I Want Straight Answers
6-7 God addressed Job next from the eye of the storm, and this is what he said:
"I have some more questions for you,
and I want straight answers.

8-14 "Do you presume to tell me what I'm doing wrong?
Are you calling me a sinner so you can be a saint?
Do you have an arm like my arm?
Can you shout in thunder the way I can?
Go ahead, show your stuff.
Let's see what you're made of, what you can do.
Unleash your outrage.
Target the arrogant and lay them flat.



Job 41
I Run This Universe
1-11"Or can you pull in the sea beast, Leviathan, with a fly rod and stuff him in your creel?
Can you lasso him with a rope,
or snag him with an anchor?
Will he beg you over and over for mercy,
or flatter you with flowery speech?
Will he apply for a job with you
to run errands and serve you the rest of your life?

Job 42 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson



Job 42
Job Worships God
I Babbled On About Things Far Beyond Me
1-6 Job answered God: "I'm convinced: You can do anything and everything.
Nothing and no one can upset your plans.
You asked, 'Who is this muddying the water,
ignorantly confusing the issue, second-guessing my purposes?'
I admit it. I was the one. I babbled on about things far beyond me,
made small talk about wonders way over my head.
You told me, 'Listen, and let me do the talking.
Let me ask the questions. You give the answers.'
I admit I once lived by rumors of you;
now I have it all firsthand—from my own eyes and ears!
I'm sorry—forgive me. I'll never do that again, I promise!
I'll never again live on crusts of hearsay, crumbs of rumor."

God Restores Job
I Will Accept His Prayer
7-8 After God had finished addressing Job, he turned to Eliphaz the Temanite and said, "I've had it with you and your two friends. I'm fed up! You haven't been honest either with me or about me—not the way my friend Job has. So here's what you must do. Take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my friend Job. Sacrifice a burnt offering on your own behalf. My friend Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer. He will ask me not to treat you as you deserve for talking nonsense about me, and for not being honest with me, as he has." 9 They did it. Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite did what God commanded. And God accepted Job's prayer.

10-11 After Job had interceded for his friends, God restored his fortune—and then doubled it! All his brothers and sisters and friends came to his house and celebrated. They told him how sorry they were, and consoled him for all the trouble God had brought him. Each of them brought generous housewarming gifts.

12-15 God blessed Job's later life even more than his earlier life. He ended up with fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, one thousand teams of oxen, and one thousand donkeys. He also had seven sons and three daughters. He named the first daughter Dove, the second, Cinnamon, and the third, Darkeyes. There was not a woman in that country as beautiful as Job's daughters. Their father treated them as equals with their brothers, providing the same inheritance.

16-17 Job lived on another 140 years, living to see his children and grandchildren—four generations of them! Then he died—an old man, a full life.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but God says take your problems to God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the proper phrasing -

Splendour says, "God says take your problems to god", while acknowledging that there is no reason for anyone to think that Splndour speaks for god.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so luckyme. I just tried to give a shortened interpretation of a difficult bible book.

[/ QUOTE ]

"interpretations" via splendour are not "god says'.

that was my point. thanks.

luckyme

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but God says take your problems to God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the proper phrasing -

Splendour says, "God says take your problems to god", while acknowledging that there is no reason for anyone to think that Splndour speaks for god.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so luckyme. I just tried to give a shortened interpretation of a difficult bible book.

[/ QUOTE ]

"interpretations" via splendour are not "god says'.

that was my point. thanks.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone can read the book of Job and see the emphasis at the end is on prayer and prayer is taking it to God regardless of who paraphrases it.

What is the philosophical term for lame personal attack? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Edit: Nevermind here it is:

Argumentum ad Hominem (abusive and circumstantial): the fallacy of attacking the character or circumstances of an individual who is advancing a statement or an argument instead of trying to disprove the truth of the statement or the soundness of the argument. Often the argument is characterized simply as a personal attack.


The personal attack is also often termed an "ad personem argument": the statement or argument at issue is dropped from consideration or is ignored, and the locutor's character or circumstances are used to influence opinion.


The fallacy draws its appeal from the technique of "getting personal." The assumption is that what the locutor is saying is entirely or partially dictated by his character or special circumstances and so should be disregarded.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue"> These have conclusively shown that the four biographies of Christ were written within the lifetime of contemporaries of Christ. </font>

Is THIS why you're a Christian and why you believe what you do?!?! The above quote is an outright lie! I guess you can safely dispose of all your beliefs now, because there is none ... not one ...single thing ever found to be written about Christ during His lifetime. Nothing. Nada, Zero, Zilch.

Why do you turn a blind eye to this Splendour?

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> These have conclusively shown that the four biographies of Christ were written within the lifetime of contemporaries of Christ. </font>

Is THIS why you're a Christian and why you believe what you do?!?! The above quote is an outright lie! I guess you can safely dispose of all your beliefs now, because there is none ... not one ...single thing ever found to be written about Christ during His lifetime. Nothing. Nada, Zero, Zilch.

Why do you turn a blind eye to this Splendour?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you splitting hairs Lestat?

See: the lifetime of contemporaries of Christ.

The disciples were only with Christ for 2-3 years before his death and resurrection.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but God says take your problems to God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the proper phrasing -

Splendour says, "God says take your problems to god", while acknowledging that there is no reason for anyone to think that Splndour speaks for god.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so luckyme. I just tried to give a shortened interpretation of a difficult bible book.

[/ QUOTE ]

"interpretations" via splendour are not "god says'.

that was my point. thanks.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone can read the book of Job and see the emphasis at the end is on prayer and prayer is taking it to God regardless of who paraphrases it.

What is the philosophical term for lame personal attack? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is simpler than that. ( and it has nothing to do with you throwing your apron over your head and running out of the room snivelling that it's all about you).

If you can claim to speak for god, then so can my neighbor ... that should worry us.
That leads us to realizing that no one can claim in a debate that they are right because "god says"... it's really that simple.

luckyme

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but God says take your problems to God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the proper phrasing -

Splendour says, "God says take your problems to god", while acknowledging that there is no reason for anyone to think that Splndour speaks for god.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so luckyme. I just tried to give a shortened interpretation of a difficult bible book.

[/ QUOTE ]

"interpretations" via splendour are not "god says'.

that was my point. thanks.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone can read the book of Job and see the emphasis at the end is on prayer and prayer is taking it to God regardless of who paraphrases it.

What is the philosophical term for lame personal attack? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Edit: Nevermind here it is:

Argumentum ad Hominem (abusive and circumstantial): the fallacy of attacking the character or circumstances of an individual who is advancing a statement or an argument instead of trying to disprove the truth of the statement or the soundness of the argument. Often the argument is characterized simply as a personal attack.


The personal attack is also often termed an "ad personem argument": the statement or argument at issue is dropped from consideration or is ignored, and the locutor's character or circumstances are used to influence opinion.


The fallacy draws its appeal from the technique of "getting personal." The assumption is that what the locutor is saying is entirely or partially dictated by his character or special circumstances and so should be disregarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is most certainly not a lame personal attack. The crux of the issue is the difference between your interpretation and what God says. He isnt saying its a bad argument because you are incompetent, he is saying it is a bad argument if it doesnt distinguish between incompetent human beings (all of us) and God.