Hows about a double barrel?--OESD

[OSUGreg1983]

Disregarding the preflop hand choice (which I think is ok from position every once and a while with many limpers), how's about firin the turn? Many villains call the flop with any 2 overs at 5NL. Double barrel feelin yay or nay?

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com (http://www.leggopoker.com) - Hand History Converter (http://www.leggopoker.com/hh)

CO: $2
Hero (BTN): $7.07
SB: $9.66
BB: $5.50
UTG: $7.15
MP: $8.33

CO posts $0.05
Pre-Flop: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG calls $0.05, MP calls $0.05, CO checks, <font color="red">Hero raises to $0.40</font>, 3 folds, MP calls $0.35, CO folds

Flop: ($0.97) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
MP checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $0.70</font>, MP calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.37) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
MP checks, <font color="red">Hero ?

[gfejs]

I had checked this he aint going anywhere, only way u can get him away from hes fd is too three barrel if he misses but thats sooo spewey. And he is calling any pair here alot.

[rothko]

take the free card

[OSUGreg1983]

[ QUOTE ]
I had checked this he aint going anywhere, only way u can get him away from hes fd is too three barrel if he misses but thats sooo spewey. And he is calling any pair here alot.

[/ QUOTE ]

At this level, villain holds 2 random over cards more often than a flush or straight draw. They almost always call a c-bet because, after all, they can still hit a pair!

[bsball8806]

check behind.

[OSUGreg1983]

Yea I guess it does get spewy though.

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had checked this he aint going anywhere, only way u can get him away from hes fd is too three barrel if he misses but thats sooo spewey. And he is calling any pair here alot.

[/ QUOTE ]

At this level, villain holds 2 random over cards more often than a flush or straight draw. They almost always call a c-bet because, after all, they can still hit a pair!

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why are you C-betting or even playing the hand PF..There not folding and you have NO hand?????

[KEW]

check turn villain not folding and your hands picked up outs..No 2 barrell bluffing at this level value bet made hands...

[OSUGreg1983]

[ QUOTE ]
Then why are you C-betting or even playing the hand PF..There not folding and you have NO hand?????

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, my discussion about calling stations on the flop has nothing to do with my PFR. Widening your range in these spots can be +EV when you hit big. If I miss terribly its an easy c/f.

Second, the implied odds if we hit the straight are very good. Say villain has Ax and he calls my 2 barrel, followed by an A dropping on the river. He thinks he has made the best hand, I bet hard (sometimes more than full pot), he insta calls and I fist pump. If he calls my turn bet and I miss, losing the hand, then I have lost much less than I would have potentially made had I hit.

+EV, imo. Keep in mind you can overbet made hands at 5NL and find a caller often. You can't compare my argument at 5NL with what you think would happen at 25NL+.

[OSUGreg1983]

[ QUOTE ]
check turn villain not folding and your hands picked up outs..No 2 barrell semi- bluffing at this level value bet made hands...

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[DaycareInferno]

i wouldn't say that you should never double at that level, but the 2h is a pretty bad card to do it on, even with outs.

[akak]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then why are you C-betting or even playing the hand PF..There not folding and you have NO hand?????

[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, my discussion about calling stations on the flop has nothing to do with my PFR. Widening your range in these spots can be +EV when you hit big at 25nl+. If I miss terribly its an easy c/f.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP. Against the vast majority of opponents at this level, widening your range is -EV. They do not think in terms of ranges, and if that is the case, you are simply putting more money into a pot you are less likely to win. If you want to practice this kind of stuff (I think you should be focusing on more fundamental things), do it on the 17/15/3 guy that you have 2437 hands on.

[Baintz]

There is a time and a place for raising 54o preflop. 5NL after 2 limpers is not it. Unless you had a read on both these players, reserve this play for opponents who will actually think about your hand, not just their own.

[Shattered]

I don't like any of it.
Starting with PF, unless villains have a tendency to limp/fold, just muck it. This may be stating the obvious but 45o doesn't play well without any fold equity, even in position.
Against two villains I usually just let it go on the flop. That's a wet board and since you know they're stations, I doubt they're both folding the 35% or so you need it to be profitable. You do have a gutshot, though, so betting's not really that bad.
Betting turn, though is really that bad. At 5NL they'll be calling down all the way with a pair of sevens, or hell, a smaller underpair. You have waaaay less fold equity than you think you do; the only thing you're folding out is overcards, period (and even that's not always true). He's calling you with any flush draw, almost all pairs, any straight draw, etc., every single one of which beats you and you're done with the hand unless you hit your straight, which you can do for free (and I hope you're not triple barrelling).

Essentially, the entire hand is spew.

[maSkraP]

[ QUOTE ]
You do have a gutshot, though, so betting's not really that bad.

[/ QUOTE ] No, he has an OESD. Sometimes, checking behind to have pot control is better especially when you're on just a draw then spew betting.

[ QUOTE ]
Second, the implied odds if we hit the straight are very good. Say villain has Ax and he calls my 2 barrel, followed by an A dropping on the river. He thinks he has made the best hand, I bet hard (sometimes more than full pot), he insta calls and I fist pump. If he calls my turn bet and I miss, losing the hand, then I have lost much less than I would have potentially made had I hit.

[/ QUOTE ] IMO, OSUGreg1983, the implied odds aren't great at all here. If you hit your straight on the river, that's 4 to a straight on the board (meaning there are 4 cards to make a straight and you only need one card to hit the straight). That's like having 4 suited cards on the board. You won't get paid much off of that even if they do have just the Ax as you say. You bet hard, likely, they will fold. So essentially, ur losing more money because if you miss, you lose, and if you hit, you will get sissy change if any (usually).

When your straights or flushes are more disguised (like three to the board or two and one off) then considering implied odds is much more crucial and beneficial and accurate than when there are 4 to a board.

I won't talk much about your preflop play, but essentially, sometimes it's worthwhile raising on BTN with practically anything IF AND ONLY IF you sense the table being ridiculously tight. But anyways.. you played this to the turn, and I would definately check here. Get your free card, lose less money (from my explanation above), and valuebet made hand.

[Spurious]

Grunch:

Perfect spot to double barrel, i might even 3 barrel in this spot.
It works more often than people think it would work.
If he got overs, he's folding, if he got a FD he's calling, but folding to a 3 barrel. If he got TP he'll fold if you bet strong on the river, except it's TPTK. If you hit you'll get payed off by those hands. If you bet smaller with your made straight on the river, they'll call with TPWK. If you bet strong they are likely to fold it.

Just my 2 cents, but i have to say that 2 and 3 barreling is working quite often.

[Shattered]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You do have a gutshot, though, so betting's not really that bad.

[/ QUOTE ] No, he has an OESD.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he has a gutshot. He picks up the open-ender on the turn.

As for the other bit, why is implied odds even being mentioned? There is no way that implied odds make a turn bet better than a flop bet, assuming he calls turn. Ever. There is no reason to reduce your EV by taking direct pot odds away from yourself when you're getting a free card.

Semi-bluffing is only profitable when your fold equity makes up for the EV that your hand strength does not; this is not the case.

[Knoooby]

hmm, well i wrote a post but it read like one of my father /images/graemlins/laugh.gif
however,
bluffing at nl5 is usually -ev if you dont have excellent reads about your opps range since the avg. nl5 villian will never fold any tp and often enough will not fold any midpair or medium pp.

ciao