Feeling lost with QQ as overpair in threebet pot

[sixsixtie]

This is villain's firs orbit at the table. Give it to me straight folks.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
Hero: $166.40
UTG+1: $56.60
CO: $33.45
Button: $11.75
SB: $39.80
BB: $49.70

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $5</font>, 4 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($10.75, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $9</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $25</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises all-in $51.6</font>, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $26.6 returned to UTG+1.

Results:
Final pot: $60.75

[whyzze]

did you seriously just fold QQ getting 4-1 with an overpair?

you can c/f the flop, or you can get it all in. This board sucks for a c/c and you are OOP.

fwiw, hes doing this with spades +overs, AJ probably, sets, KK/AA, occasionally TT and very very rarely 88. cant fold after your raise.

[Mr. Ratface]

After your raise I think the fold is horrible. It's slightly more than a minraise to you...

If you were planning to fold to a 3-bet on the flop then I think a c/f was better.

[sixsixtie]

I definitely felt like I misplayed the hand yes. Except for I really believe the only thing I am beating is AKs or AQs. I thought that I may as well save the 25 rather than draw to 2 outs.

[Profish2285]

The point is that by the time you raise, the odds youre now getting justify a call vs his range. He will do this with hands we beat often enough to justify a call with the pot odds we are being offered.

[sixsixtie]

After he jams to the check raise what do you put his range at? Its really only AA,KK,JJ,99 AK spades or AQspades. And very very rarely TT or 88. We are practically drawing dead to AA,KK,JJ,99 and we are barely even a favorite to AKs and AQs all though obviously we are getting odds for that. I really thought that a bad fold was best =\
Quick poker stove

21,780 games 0.031 secs 702,580 games/sec

Board: 9s 7d Js
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 22.904% 20.73% 02.17% 4516 472.50 { QcQs }
Hand 1: 77.096% 74.93% 02.17% 16319 472.50 { KK+, QdQh, JcJd, JcJh, JdJh, TcTd, 9c9d, 9c9h, 9d9h, 8c8d, AsKs, AsQs }

[orange]

so nasty. c/r-ing overpairs as a bluff in rr-ed pots is lighting money on fire.

[sixsixtie]

So what line do you think I should have taken?
Fold PF?

[bsball8806]

[ QUOTE ]
So what line do you think I should have taken?
Fold PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'd lead out the flop and call a shove. Assuming you weren't playing the Q's solely to set mine, I think his range is heavily weighted towards suited overs, and AA/KK. However, AJ, and other retarded donk plays are mixed in there. Sets are also an option, but once you c/r him, you cannot fold to his shove.

[You're No Daisy]

[ QUOTE ]
The point is that by the time you raise, the odds youre now getting justify a call vs his range. He will do this with hands we beat often enough to justify a call with the pot odds we are being offered.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess the problem I have here is blowing 1/3 of my stack knowing I'm beat in this situation. I understand the pot odds issue, but why call if we are 90% certain we're beat? The typical response I see in many post similar to this one is, "I call, but I don't like it." If you don't like the call, why do it? Isn't it more prudent to save the extra money? I'm not a nit by any means, although you wouldn't know it by this post. I'm just trying to figure out why we call if we're beat.

AC

[EyeJackit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The point is that by the time you raise, the odds youre now getting justify a call vs his range. He will do this with hands we beat often enough to justify a call with the pot odds we are being offered.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess the problem I have here is blowing 1/3 of my stack knowing I'm beat in this situation. I understand the pot odds issue, but why call if we are 90% certain we're beat? The typical response I see in many post similar to this one is, "I call, but I don't like it." If you don't like the call, why do it? Isn't it more prudent to save the extra money? I'm not a nit by any means, although you wouldn't know it by this post. I'm just trying to figure out why we call if we're beat.

AC

[/ QUOTE ]

You call because you are not always beat and more importantly your odds justify the call.

Try this:

You have $105 in your stack. You cap your KK with a $5 chip and open shove $100 into the pot. It folds around to the player on your right who shoves his stack of $105 into the middle and then accidentally exposes his AA.

Do you call the extra $5 knowing that you are beat?

[sixsixtie]

That is an extreme example this one is not the same. Did you see my poker stove? I am getting 3.5-1 and im about 20% to win it.

[udbrky]

You've got 22% equity in the pot, and against that range, you're 20%. If he's bluffing even less than a typical amount of the time, you've picked up your additional equity.

1) It's his first orbit, and he's already up $6. How'd he pick up that money? Was he aggressive? Did he showdown?

2) His shove is really a min-raise. He HAS to figure you're calling a lot.

3) What do you think he might think about you having a 3x stack and how do you think that weighs in what he thinks you're doing here?

1&amp;2 are bigger factors than 3 - not everyone thinks about that kind of thing.

Here's a little something I've learned:

When I make a call based on good pot odds, I'm amazed at how often I'm ahead.

You can't put him solely on one or two hands, you can only assume a range. It's a tough hand against an unknown, but sometimes, you have to ask what makes the most sense. I think it's a call, but I think it's pretty close. He's probably only bluffing maybe 5% of the time.