QQ 3 bet pot deep

[Profish2285]

Button runs at 28/22/8. MP runs at 24/18/6. Who here is just mucking pf? I felt that was a little weak at first but this whole hand is pretty difficult to play. As played, what are you doing on the flop and why?

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saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($19.25)
MP ($66.25)
CO ($44.10)
<font color="#C00000">Button ($80.05)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($143.10)</font>
BB ($56.10)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $2.25</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $8</font>, Hero calls $7.75, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $5.75.

Flop: ($25) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $18</font>, Hero....

[JoshNjuice]

Any idea what BU's r/r range is here? At 28/22, he's probably re-raising light here enough to play QQ ("light" includes AQs, 88+).

As played, your SPR is ~3 and I like that flop. MP was calling PF with a wide range because there was so much in the pot. BU and MP3 both have a wide enough PFR range that you're not terrified of AA/KK here.

Shove and hope you get called by 88-JJ.

[whyzze]

you realize your overcall is just as transparent as a 4bet to a decent player and it also provides MP odds to setmine, while losing value the times you are ahead of button....which is like always.

call...if mp shoves you can fold.

not totally sure about the call plan, but i think its got the best EV considering their ranges.

[Profish2285]

Whyzze so youre 4 betting here Im guessing? I just hate 4 betting QQ pf but I guess this is a spot for it. As far as calling flop, what are you doing on a blank turn? How about an A or K turn?

[matrix]

raise preflop for value. You are so far ahead of buttons 3bet range it's not funny and we don't want this to go three ways.

check/shove flop - what kind of flop are you hoping for exactly flat calling a 3bet from an overaggro button 3bettor whose range is huge?

If we call we have less than a PSB behind - and what's the plan if paint turns up??

If anyone here has AA/KK it's MP - and if he stacks us we still cover overaggro button who we have position on.

I think calling here opens up a can of worms the few times a non Q broadway card hits.

[vixticator]

Calling, raising or folding are all fine pf imo. If UTG were to fold MP shove and Button fold, you call (if overcall). As played c/f flop is fine. Anyone can make a case for bet/fold or are we always being shoved after a lead? Is Button capable of light 3bets? If yes, re-raise preflop is fine as well. MP's range should be wide. Button idk need more info, I'd assume JJ+, AK without more reads.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
Is Button capable of light 3bets?

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't get to have 28/20 vpip/pfr stats without 3betting "light"

I 3bet light and limit my light 3bets to LP openers who have highish Attempt to steal %'s and after 18kish hands my stats are 20/15 or so...

[vixticator]

[ QUOTE ]
you don't get to have 28/20 vpip/pfr stats without 3betting "light"

I 3bet light and limit my light 3bets to LP openers who have highish Attempt to steal %'s and after 18kish hands my stats are 20/15 or so...

[/ QUOTE ]Good point. I agree with you now, 4bet. Also, I'd switch tables unless other opponents were huge donks. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[pokerplaya5]

I would definitely 4 bet preflop. As played, I still call flop bet and if blank on turn, I push.

[Profish2285]

They were pretty bad as I got my stack somehow. This may be an obvious question but I will ask it anyway. Assuming I 4 bet pf to like 25 or so, I am calling a shove right?

[matrix]

that depends on who shoves.

if button shoves no. if MP shoves and button folds I'd probably call.

and I think I'd punch it up to ~$20. not $25.

[whyzze]

[ QUOTE ]
They were pretty bad as I got my stack somehow. This may be an obvious question but I will ask it anyway. Assuming I 4 bet pf to like 25 or so, I am calling a shove right?

[/ QUOTE ]

make it 18, call a shove from either and its not even close.

[Profish2285]

Wait now Im really confused. First of all isnt 4 bet/folding very spewy and should never be done? I thought that was 2+2 dogma. Also, shouldnt I be more concerned about MP shoving instead of BTN?

[billip62]

4 betting and folding is only really possible when you can put the villian on AA or KK (obv) and that's hard to do accurately against the guy in MP. The button's deeper stack in my mind gives you the additional information and a better pot odds agrument for folding.

honestly, I think the 4 bet here is essential for information, but I'm going broke on that flop if I see it.

[Profish2285]

Okay I understand that btn is deeper, but its only a matter of 30 extra bb's. I would think a shove from MP would rep the most strength as he would have gotten 3 bet from villain, 4 bet from me, and then still shoves into both of us. That looks alot stronger to me than MP folding and BTN shoving.

[whyzze]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay I understand that btn is deeper, but its only a matter of 30 extra bb's. I would think a shove from MP would rep the most strength as he would have gotten 3 bet from villain, 4 bet from me, and then still shoves into both of us. That looks alot stronger to me than MP folding and BTN shoving.

[/ QUOTE ]


exactly...you will be &gt;50% against button, his range is JJ+/AK, occasionally TT and rarely AQ.

againts MP, you will be a slight dog, but after the 4bet you have odds to call.

[Profish2285]

So pretty much I have to 4 bet pre against these guys and have to get it in after that no matter what? Sorry if this is noob-ish Im just so used to the mind set of QQ all in pf is bad.

[whyzze]

yes.

QQ aipf is usually a good thing. AK/JJ begin to get marginal.

edit: unless you're a nit.

[billip62]

I don't like playing QQ allin pre. I hate it.

Comparing the choices:

4 betting preflop -&gt; pot is HU 100% of the time
-hand ranges narrow to say 25% AK, 30% AA, 30% KK, maybe JJ 5%, 10% other garbage
flatting preflop -&gt;multiway pot say 60% of the time
-hand ranges for MP probably most pp say 66+, AK, AQs and if he's loose probably even some suited connectors.
-hand ranges for BTN probably 1010+, AK, AQ.

If someone could bust out pokerstove for some equity calculations I think it would be really useful