Hand Reading: Gussing Game

[ICMoney]

Villian is a fish.
He has been calling raises pf with broadways, Q7o, A5o, etc.

He mb with air or TP.
Haven't seen him pfr before.

He's 34/5 over 100 hands.
Not many other reads.


What does my hand look like?
What is the mininum you would call river with in villian's shoes?

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com (http://www.leggopoker.com) - Hand History Converter (http://www.leggopoker.com/hh)

SB: $7.35
BB: $85.25
UTG: $70.05
MP: $65.85
CO: $43.40
Hero (BTN): $50.50

Pre-Flop: Two Cards dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, MP calls $0.50, <font color="red">CO raises to $1.50</font>, Hero calls $1.50, 2 folds, MP calls $1

Flop: ($5.25) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif Ahttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 Players)
MP checks, <font color="red">CO bets $3</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $8</font>, MP folds, CO calls $5

Turn: ($21.25) Thttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
CO checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $10</font>, CO calls $10

River: ($41.25) 7http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
CO checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $24 and puts him all-in</font>

[Upgrade_U]

You my friend, have a set of fives or you weren't smart enough to 3bet w/ AQ preflop

[ICMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
You my friend, have a set of fives or you weren't smart enough to 3bet w/ AQ preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

So if you're villain you need a set, AQ, AK, QJ or what to call?

Thanks.

You're dumb friend,
ICM

[kylephilly]

You have AQ, he has a one pair hand
Minimum I call with is AQ+

[derosnec]

assuming he even cares what you have, he puts you on a flush draw. he's never folding an ace or even a queen sometimes.

[orlov]

You either have 55 or A10hearts. Tending towards A10hearts since your giving him fairly good odds to draw to his flush(if he is) and hed obviously be drawing dead. Altough this is probably overthinking it already /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

Aq is in your range too probably since his pfr is small, thus u wouldnt have reraised.

Id call with Aq and KJ (assuming kj is in his pfr range lol).

[ICMoney]

Just wanted to say that I like Chick-fil-a too.

I'll post results tonight.

Keep the guesses coming.

I might give a prize or something if you guess his and my hand.

[DonManuel]

The weak turn bet is suspicious. Set of 5's is possible and also some combo draw with two hearts that missed. Villain probably has 2 pair at most. I'd call with AQ and maybe AT (and obviously with KJ). This also depends on wether the villain has the Ah. I'd call you with AK if I've seen you bluffing the river before.

[derosnec]

doesn't really matter what we call with. matters what fishy is calling with. since turn and river didn't change anything to him (i.e., the scary 3rd heart didn't show up), he's calling with a lot. don't be surprised to see KK call either.

[ICMoney]

I can easily get villain in with two 1/2 psb.

Does that play into the decision?

[Mr. Ratface]

You might have 89 of hearts and he called you down with KQ.

[kaz2107]

u have 55, AQ, or a combo draw. pretty narrow range on this flop knowing that u r good and they villian is a donk. luckily tha donk will not be able to put these important pieces of info together thus will call u down with Ax here all day.

on the river the heart draw missed but without n e reads on u i would need AQ or better to call this bet. and i never show up on the river without AQ or better after c/cing the turn on that board

[Spurious]

AT/AJ hearts
set aces (since you were sick that noone gives you action when you 3bet pf)

he calls with any toppair or better i guess

[Profish2285]

Im gonna go with the consensus and say 55, AQ, or KJhh.

[djj6835]

AT hearts or KJ hearts. Hope you didn't have 55 or AQ with that bet sizing.

[icheckcallu]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[uncleshady]

not sure what he had, but you played your hand like a busted flush.

[Nemesis69]

Would hero trippel barrel with AT or KJ of hearts?

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
Would hero trippel barrel with AT or KJ of hearts?

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf not? One is the nuts and the other is basically the nuts.

[Profish2285]

KJhh gives hero the nut straight and AT gives him a strong two pair so I dont see why he wouldnt. I hope this isnt a missed flush draw as I dont see villain folding much. TBH, whatever you had other than KJhh, I dont really like the bet sizing though. Its not big enough for a bluff and too small for protection IMO.

[Daniel LeClaire]

No way do you have a set or two pair. Your weak turn bet pretty much leads me to believe you have a weak Ace or flush draw. When you bet the river you don't have the weak Ace anymore. I put you on J /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif and villain is calling you with any Ace and some Queens.

[cubase]

Grunch.

You asked from the villian's perspective and you said the villian is a fish.

So this may seem trite, however, as a fish:

I'm calling you down with whatever Ax I raised with. I'm never folding AJ, and all my other aces (AK, AQ, are the nuts as far as I'm concerned).

I don't put you on anything, in fact, I don't even know how many opponents are playing.. I have freaking top pair baby... who cares what you have... I'll keep calling your bets... All I know is top pair is the nuts... I have enough trouble keeping track of my own hand, much less worrying about what you have.

--------

So there you go, the fish thoughts.

[gregorio]

Let's assume this is a brag post and not a beat. Obviously it looks like busted flush draw, so the simple answer is that you attempted an ill-fated bluff on the river, and villain had a hand that they never should have called with, your bluff should have worked, and you are bitter they called and screamed HYACHAYCAHCHAA!!!!! How can you call that with A9. Jesus god damned [censored]... ahhh [censored]!

But if we asusme it is a brag, two options. First, river is a bluff that worked. But this is unlikely since hero seems to know what villain had. So we can go with the second option: villain called and hero won.

We have 2 clues additional clues. First,

[ QUOTE ]
Haven't seen him pfr before.

[/ QUOTE ]

So villain has a premium hand, and hand is strong enough to get to showdown for his stack. So that leaves AK, QQ, and maybe AQ (even though hero hasn't seen villain raise, AF is 5). AA is in range, but plays flop or turn more agressive.

Second,
[ QUOTE ]
I can easily get villain in with two 1/2 psb.
Does that play into the decision?

[/ QUOTE ]

So lets assume Hero had a monster, that the plan from the flop (or at least the turn) was to get it all in on the river, and the small turn bet was just to ensure some value, while still being able to push for a 2/3psb.

On to possible hands. Hero has to have something pf worth a cc, and something on the flop worth raising, so that leaves QQ, 55, KJ, AQ and hearts (assuming AA repops pf). The turn card brings some more draws, so with hearts and straight draws out, if hero has a set, he bets more to charge the draws. What hands aren't scared of any draw. AQhh is strong and has a redraw to the nuts, but still has to worry about straight draw. So hero has to have KJhh, since this is the only hand that doesn't need to worry about giving cheap card on the turn, since it's the nuts with a redraw to the 2nd nuts.

So we know hero has KJhh, what about villain. That leaves AK, QQ and AQ. We can eliminate AKhh, since hero has Kh, and we can eliminate AQhh, since then hero would look silly not betting more on the turn. So I think we can narrow villain's range to combinations of AK and AQ that don't have 2 hearts, and QQ. QQ probably repops flop because of the draw. AK and AQ should repop too, but maybe AK/AQ are worried about sets.

So villain probably has AK, since it is more in keeping with the "haven't seen him raise pf clue," and since OP says villain is "a fish," this was a pretty fish-like wayt to play AK. AQ is also possible, but I'm going with AK.

results: Hero had KJhh; villain had AK. What's my prize.

[AZplaya]

if villian is a standard fish, he calls $11 on the flop and stacks off on the turn with any ace and any fd. Basically with your bet sizing you allowed him to chase the flush for $24 less than he would have paid.

[You're No Daisy]

Hero can't have AQhh since the flop had the Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif

I'm putting Hero on AA because he knows villain is a fish and probably doesn't have AA himself. Hero also knows he can outplay villain on the flop. Once the Ace hits on the flop, hero raises to charge for draws (though unlikely in this situation) or hopes villain has an Ace, a Queen or QQ...most fish are postionally unaware and don't raise preflop with suited connectors. If our Hero hasn't seen villain raise preflop over 100 hands, it's safe to assume villain has AA-QQ, AK. Knowing this, our Hero can slowplay the [censored] outta this hand and get paid off on the river.

The minumum villain calls the river here is a loaded question because he'll call with any Ace, any Queen, and he's for sure taking a set of QQQ to the bank (which is what I think villain has).

AC

[gregorio]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero can't have AQhh since the flop had the Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

So at least I got that part right.

[Paul Thomson]

i put u on T/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif just for [censored] and giggles, but i'd call u with any pair

[ICMoney]

Thanks for the thoughts guys.

On the flop I put him on Ax, Kx, KK, JJ.

My plan was to raise small on the flop, jam if I hit or check behind on a blank.

He was pretty passive and I would be 100% shocked if I got CRed on the turn.

I was firing any river and wanted to leave enough behind to fold out A9, KQ or w/e on the river.

On the river he has one pair at best.

How do you like my line?


Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com (http://www.leggopoker.com) - Hand History Converter (http://www.leggopoker.com/hh)

SB: $7.35
BB: $85.25
UTG: $70.05
MP: $65.85
CO: $43.40
Hero (BTN): $50.50

Pre-Flop: 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, MP calls $0.50, <font color="red">CO raises to $1.50</font>, Hero calls $1.50, 2 folds, MP calls $1

Flop: ($5.25) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif Ahttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 Players)
MP checks, <font color="red">CO bets $3</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $8</font>, MP folds, CO calls $5

Turn: ($21.25) Thttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
CO checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $10</font>, CO calls $10

River: ($41.25) 7http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
CO checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $24</font>

[djj6835]

I think it is pretty terrible.

[ICMoney]

I also tried to bet subconscious amounts.

I raised him $5 more so maybe he thinks I have A5, 55.

On the turn I bet $10 when the Ten hits.

My $24 bet leaves exactly $7, which is the river card.

Did I psyche him out?

[ICMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is pretty terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you play turn?

[jk1986]

[ QUOTE ]
I also tried to bet subconscious amounts.

I raised him $5 more so maybe he thinks I have A5, 55.

On the turn I bet $10 when the Ten hits.

My $24 bet leaves exactly $7, which is the river card.

Did I psyche him out?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is 4554643rd level FPS

[ICMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I also tried to bet subconscious amounts.

I raised him $5 more so maybe he thinks I have A5, 55.

On the turn I bet $10 when the Ten hits.

My $24 bet leaves exactly $7, which is the river card.

Did I psyche him out?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is 4554643rd level FPS

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but I had a read that this donk's on the 4554642rd level.

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think it is pretty terrible.

[/ QUOTE ] How do you play turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check. We have some showdown equity along with a decent draw. Trying to get a fish to fold top pair is spew.

[Mr.o0]

i dont like ur line very much.u raised on the flop with the intention of checking behind on the turn when a blank hits.i totally dont understand why you make a 1/2 potsize bet on the turn when you know that villaien is a calling station!?i mean,what the heck do you achieve by that? do you really think that villain(caling station) now folds on the river when you jam again at the pot?the way you presented the hand i think you are proud about a fold of villain on the river,but nevertheless i still think that you shuold have checked the turn and shut down on the river.raise on the flop is fine to get a freecard.use it!

[Paul Thomson]

[ QUOTE ]
i put u on T/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif just for [censored] and giggles, but i'd call u with any pair

[/ QUOTE ]

soul reading ftw!

[Daniel LeClaire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i put u on T/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif just for [censored] and giggles, but i'd call u with any pair

[/ QUOTE ]

soul reading ftw!

[/ QUOTE ]


I called it on the first page, noob! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ICMoney]

In my experience people will auto bet the turn after they raise a CB IP on the flop.

Villain will often check call and see what happens on the river.

If your CB gets raised and turn gets bet, river gets pushed, one pair is pretty crappy usually.

With my draw, raising the flop and checking turn is pretty obvious.

I pretty much know he has one pair higher than my tens - so in a sense the ten is a blank.

I think he calls a psb on the river when I miss, but will fold &lt;AK to a turn/river combo.

[bravos1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I also tried to bet subconscious amounts.

I raised him $5 more so maybe he thinks I have A5, 55.

On the turn I bet $10 when the Ten hits.

My $24 bet leaves exactly $7, which is the river card.

Did I psyche him out?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is 4554643rd level FPS

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but I had a read that this donk's on the 4554642rd level.

[/ QUOTE ]

clearly though he is only on 1st level and called w/ A9.

amirite?

LOL FPS from when I first started playing NL that screwed me because villain is a moron who can not count to 5 or is just far superior than me...verdict is still out.

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com (http://www.leggopoker.com) - Hand History Converter (http://www.leggopoker.com/hh)

SB: $49.50
BB: $30.05
UTG: $117.65
MP: $9.75
CO: $45.80
Hero (BTN): $40.55

Pre-Flop: K/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif dealt to Hero (BTN)
3 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, SB folds, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $3</font>, BB calls $3

Turn: ($10.25) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($10.25) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $10.25</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $35.55 and is All-In</font>,
<font color="blue">
I know you have crap and I still have FE!!!!</font>
BB calls $14.80 and is All-In
<font color="blue">Arrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggh</font>
Results: $60.35 Pot ($3 Rake)
BB showed 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (two pair, Sevens and Fours) and WON $57.35 (+$27.30 NET)
Hero showed K/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (a pair of Sevens) and LOST (-$30.05 NET)
<font color="blue">Hmm, well at least one of my reads was right..LOL</font>

Don't play like hero above /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Daniel LeClaire]

The main problem in this hand is that you, yourself, acknowledge that villain is a fish. Yet you are trying to push him off a hand. That's not how you beat a fish. You are way over thinking this hand.

[ICMoney]

So you just call flop, check behind on turn and check behind on river?

[whyzze]

ewwwwww...bluffing a guy that raising 5% of his hands on an A high flop.


results dont matter...this is baaaad.

[ICMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
ewwwwww...bluffing a guy that raising 5% of his hands on an A high flop.


results dont matter...this is baaaad.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was a bunch of min raising at this table and he didn't have a chance to open-raise much.

I semi-bluff all the time - not super horrible.

Unless I bluff, he's never getting my stack. I get his when he can't fold TP or worse.

[jk1986]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont like ur line very much.u raised on the flop with the intention of checking behind on the turn when a blank hits.i totally dont understand why you make a 1/2 potsize bet on the turn when you know that villaien is a calling station!?i mean,what the heck do you achieve by that? do you really think that villain(caling station) now folds on the river when you jam again at the pot?the way you presented the hand i think you are proud about a fold of villain on the river,but nevertheless i still think that you shuold have checked the turn and shut down on the river.raise on the flop is fine to get a freecard.use it!

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont like ur grammar + spelling very much.kthnxbye

[thing85]

ICMoney,

I see what you're trying to do here, and this line works against some villains, but against a guy you call a fish, this is FPS at its best. Villain is the type to take TPGK too far, and he's the type of player we value bet when we have a good hand.

I'm guessing you posted this hand in this format because you wound up winning (with or without showdown), but regardless of the results, this is not how you get the most value out of a player like this.

[Mr. Ratface]

[ QUOTE ]
You might have 89 of hearts and he called you down with KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a quote by me. I feel 89hearts is close enough to the 810hearts and now I need to know if he had KQ.

[checktheriver]

The real problem here is the bet sizing imo. When I first read the hand, I thought you had a hand like KhJh and you tried to get Villain to commit with his one pair hand. I know stack sizes are a little awkward, but if you think he can fold the turn put in a decent sized bet, here you're giving him too good odds and he'll call both streets a lot.

[ICMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You might have 89 of hearts and he called you down with KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a quote by me. I feel 89hearts is close enough to the 810hearts and now I need to know if he had KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="green"> Mr. Ratface - PM me your FT/PS name and I'll ship you $5. </font>


Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com (http://www.leggopoker.com) - Hand History Converter (http://www.leggopoker.com/hh)

SB: $7.35
BB: $85.25
UTG: $70.05
MP: $65.85
CO: $43.40
Hero (BTN): $50.50

Pre-Flop: 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, MP calls $0.50, <font color="red">CO raises to $1.50</font>, Hero calls $1.50, 2 folds, MP calls $1

Flop: ($5.25) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif Ahttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 Players)
MP checks, <font color="red">CO bets $3</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $8</font>, MP folds, CO calls $5

Turn: ($21.25) Thttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
CO checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $10</font>, CO calls $10

River: ($41.25) 7http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
CO checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $24</font>, CO calls $23.90 and is All-In

Results: $89.05 Pot ($3 Rake)
CO showed Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif Khttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (a pair of Queens) and WON $86.05 (+$42.65 NET)
Hero showed 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (a pair of Tens) and LOST (-$43.40 NET)

[Mr. Ratface]

Wow, I guess Ill use this 5dollars to create a roll at Stars.

Stichio (Montreal)

Thanks btw /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ICMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, I guess Ill use this 5dollars to create a roll at Stars.

Stichio (Montreal)

Thanks btw /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Shipped.

Might take a minute to show up.

[akak]

what does fps stand for?

[LOwrestling2001]

fancy play syndrome

[DennisGPunkt]

I don't like it too much. Those people love to make hero calls.
Also CO does not have a full buyin and if he calls your turnbet he is not going to fold any river.

On the turn I'd take a freecard. If I hit the flush I'd let some time run down and then overbetting/shoving the river and expect mr. fish to call with Ax.

[inverted]

should change your name to IH8Money

[ICMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
should change your name to IH8Money

[/ QUOTE ]

IC my money going bye bye.

[takingcontrol]

strangely remeniscent of some spewy [censored] i've done in the last few days.

another decent play vs a slightly more aware opponent we can make a +ev shove on the turn when our hand improves (or take a free card if we don't) if we raise more on the flop. say $11 dollars ?

as played your line is just not convincing, even to this cave dweller.

[edit///i am make english good.]

[ICMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
strangely remeniscent of some spewy [censored] i've done in the last few days.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should have seen me tonight.

Man, wish I had some of that money back.

[Nemesis69]

[ QUOTE ]
Would hero trippel barrel with AT or KJ of hearts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I misread the board lol