Blackjack Counting and Comps

[Hellmouth]

I'm pretty new to counting at BJ but I dont want to get off on the wrong foot here.

One of the main reasons that I am looking into Video Poker and Black Jack is that I believe that I might be able to get better comps in the long run from casino's. This keeps my wife happy becasue she can eat nice meals and waste money on massages etc while I am playing poker. (Im a lot less of a tightwad about $ when the room and meals are comped to begin with) Also she likes to gamble a little but not poker so these are games we can play together.

Now I understand that in the long run Blackjack is +EV only if you count. I understand that playing long enough sessions to get rated and comped probably would involve a lot of heat and possibly getting flagged as a counter.

So my thought was playing at one casion (Ie the Borg) where I already have a players card and history just using basic strategy so that I dont burn the bridge, try to get rated and comped there since I like the rooms etc. Then when I want to count, hitting all the casino's on the Boardwalk for one hour each during different shifts while I stay at the Borg. That way I can have my comps and still count.

Anyone see any flaws in this plan? I am a newbie counter so I dont know if this has been discussed a million times.

Greg

[Double Down]

If you just play basic strategy and get comped, it will be slightly +EV long run if you include the value of the comps.

Your plan sounds good, I don't know what the games are like out there, but it sounds all right. Just so you know, counting is not the only way to beat blackjack. There are other methods as well, such as shuffle tracking, tracking aces, spooking the dealer, and other things. I don't know too much on the subject, others here would be able to tell you more about those than me.
You may also want to check out www.bj21.com. (http://www.bj21.com.) It's the best bj forum out there.

[playersare]

AC is not a great place to be a card counter. theoretically it can be done and the NJ law states that you can't get kicked out of a casino, but overall the player edge vs. variance will be nominal IMO. a majority of the BJ games are 8-deck shoes with mediocre penetration, and the 6:5 single deck games should be avoided altogether. most boardwalk casinos have VIP pits with 6-deck shoes, but you'll probably have to deal with $25-50 minimum bets and NMSE.

the borg is the only place in AC with 6-deck tables at all limits, but it can be extremely crowded at any red chip table which will make wonging in very difficult. unless you're willing to ramp bets between (minimum) $25 and $200 at will and be bankrolled for the long haul, you're probably not going to make out with much profit. I'm not saying it can't be done (and there are certainly some 2+2ers who do manage to beat AC blackjack), but the bankroll risk to a beginner should not be underestimated.

If you want to milk the comp system, I'd say you'd be better off just flat betting $50-100 BJ at the borg with basic strat, and grinding mid-high limits at 9/6 Jacks or Better video poker. Better yet, you can get a VIP players card at a lower end casino like Harrah's/Showboat or Resorts (which would take a lot less coin-in than the Borg for the same VP paytables), and then flash that to get a Black Card on the spot.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
AC is not a great place to be a card counter. theoretically it can be done and the NJ law states that you can't get kicked out of a casino, but overall the player edge vs. variance will be nominal IMO. a majority of the BJ games are 8-deck shoes with mediocre penetration, and the 6:5 single deck games should be avoided altogether. most boardwalk casinos have VIP pits with 6-deck shoes, but you'll probably have to deal with $25-50 minimum bets and NMSE.

the borg is the only place in AC with 6-deck tables at all limits, but it can be extremely crowded at any red chip table which will make wonging in very difficult. unless you're willing to ramp bets between (minimum) $25 and $200 at will and be bankrolled for the long haul, you're probably not going to make out with much profit. I'm not saying it can't be done (and there are certainly some 2+2ers who do manage to beat AC blackjack), but the bankroll risk to a beginner should not be underestimated.

If you want to milk the comp system, I'd say you'd be better off just flat betting $50-100 BJ at the borg with basic strat, and grinding mid-high limits at 9/6 Jacks or Better video poker. Better yet, you can get a VIP players card at a lower end casino like Harrah's/Showboat or Resorts (which would take a lot less coin-in than the Borg for the same VP paytables), and then flash that to get a Black Card on the spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I understand the difficulties of the 8deck shoe and I know that AC is not a great place to make money counting. I basically just want to minimize my losses while getting a high level of comps without getting flagged as a counter.

Once you have the black card at the Borg, I assume that you still need to do a good deal of playing before you can start getting comps. What are the benifits of the black borg card?

Greg

[playersare]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I understand the difficulties of the 8deck shoe and I know that AC is not a great place to make money counting. I basically just want to minimize my losses while getting a high level of comps without getting flagged as a counter.

[/ QUOTE ]
I still think flat betting without counting might be a better long term strategy if you truly want to "minimize" your losses. you're not going to make enough money relative to any nominal gain in player advantage to offset short-term variance. plus you may get backed off, or low bet-capped, or preferentially shuffled, or who knows what by the floor personnel if they decide they don't like you. if you want to try and make some money counting cards, that's fine, but it's not necessarily the best strategy for maximizing comps. you might want to decide which of the these two separate aspects of casino gambling is more important to you.

[ QUOTE ]
Once you have the black card at the Borg, I assume that you still need to do a good deal of playing before you can start getting comps. What are the benifits of the black borg card?

[/ QUOTE ]
line cutting, free parking, exclusive access to amphora lounge buffet (cost $10 comp dollars), improved comp offers by mail, overall preferential treatment. under normal circumstances, you need to earn $1000 comp dollars in a year to get upgraded to Black, so presumably you'd already have accumulated a bunch of freebies by then.

[Hellmouth]

I think you may be right about the flat betting being +EV with comps. I was just thinking that even if I just used the count enough to offset the -.5% house advantage that in the long run all the comps that they are giving me would be free minus the time invested. Obviouslly a more aggressive strategy to make money (big spread etc) would not be advantageous. But if I could approximate an even money game while accruing comps and not getting any heat I think it would be the best situation overall.

I do know that the varience in BJ is huge and my BR is not, so at this point I am just exploring the options.

Thanks for all the good advice so far. I will definately try to get a VIP card at the Showboat (Since Ive stayed there and played there before) and use it to get the Borg Black card.

Greg

[Shaggy]

Look into the book Comp City by Max Rubin. In it Max outlines numerous techniques to make your play appear higher than it really is. simple things like betting more when the pit is watching (filling out rating slips) and playing at crowded tables so your money lasts longer. Casinos are more interested in the duration of your play than the number of hands you played. It is better to play 2 hours at 40 hands per hour (full table) with $25 bets than it is to play 1 hour at 100 hands per hour heads up. You put less money into action (with negative EV) and got more comp value because they rated you as a $25 player for two hours. Add that style of play with raiseing your bets only when they are watching and you could be a $50 bettor for two hours without really risking much more.

Also check out www.blackjackforumonline.com (http://www.blackjackforumonline.com) for some great articles on counting and comps.

-Shaggy

[Shaggy]

Here is a link to an article in blackjack forum:
http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/countingcardscompcity.html

-Shaggy

[Hellmouth]

thanks man I'm checking it out right now. I'm already in debt to snyder for his Blackbelt in BJ book. Its my bible right now.

Greg

[peterchi]

I just wanted to say thanks for this thread because I'm interested in doing the exact same thing. I don't need to try and make tons of money from BJ; I just want sweet comps without any -EV.

I don't know much more than the basics of counting, and have never actually tried it in a casino (just practiced at home a little). I just bought Snyder's Blackbelt and Wong's Professional Blackjack; these should get me started well, right?

[playersare]

like I said before, counting cards to make money and/or reduce house edge, and maximizing comps are not necessarily correlated strategies. nowhere in Rubin's "Comp City" does the author suggest that you ramp your bets relative to the count. in fact, he says that casino countermeasures like shuffling up early are BENEFICIAL to the basic strategy flat bettor because it reduces the number of hands dealt per hour.

if you're normally a green chip player and you lose a few $200 big bets in a bad session when the count is high, was that free buffet or even a weekend room still worth it? if you were unlucky enough to blow a big stack in less than an hour (definitely possible if you're backcounting), will the computer even give you enough comp credit to offset the difference? probably not. and remember that floor personnel can only give discretionary freebies based on gross wagering handle, not actual win/loss. the simple math is, you may get 10x the comps for 10x the average bet, but you do NOT have 10x the best of it in terms of actual cash win rate. therefore, flat betting your maximum tolerable amount per hand with NO additional variance is, IMO, the optimal strategy in a place like AC where counting produces little or no long-term return in of itself.

for a lower BR requirement, you can grind $1 JoB VP, exploit cash back multiplier promotions, chase progressives, AND be seen in a more positive eye by the casino, all for about the same house edge as BJ. read "The Frugal Gambler" (2nd Ed.) by Jean Scott and "Video Poker - Optimal Play" by Dan Paymar. the Max Rubin book is slightly outdated since it was written before the mass computerization of players club progams.

[HammerinHank]

Not a bad plan but it will be kind of a pain to drag you wife down to the boardwalk for meals and massage’s. Not a lot of money to be made from AC BJ. The Borg is probably the best BJ game in town and and you don't have to worry about losing the poker room because they can't 86 you. You can probably get away with quite a bit of action with a bet spread of 25-300 of you keep the sessions short as long as it’s a busy weekend with a lot of big action around. You could also back count and jump in and flat bet $100 or $200. Play the next shoe off the top and if it goes south take a bathroom break and leave you chips to keep the meter running. Then start the next shoe and play if it’s plus and walk if it’s neg. Video Poker is probably a better play just to get comps and you don’t have to worry (much) about heat.

I counted for years but when in LV I currently play enough at Mirage, B, or Wynn to get my trip comped and spend the rest of the time playing poker, unless of course there is a really good BJ opportunity in town.