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Profish2285
11-18-2007, 08:59 PM
Villain is unknown. Maybe I am just running bad but I am really starting to re think this whole 4 bet shoving thing with AK. I just really hate risking 100 bb to win like 14. If I get called Im usually [censored] so it all just seems meh. The problem is, I cant think of any other reasonable line besides folding. Heres the problem: AK is a hand that gains a lot of value from seeing all 5 cards as youre only going to hit a pair on the flop 33% of the time. This is what makes calling bad, being oop magnifies this a ton. I already gave my reasons why shoving is bad imo, its just risking too much to win too little overall. I guess this leaves us with folding, even though that seems weak tight. I mean I would fold JJ or TT in this position as long as villain isnt a hyper aggro monkey so folding here with AK cant be too incorrect. I would love to hear everyones thoughts.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt (http://www.flopturnriver.com/reviews/Online-Poker-FullTilt.php#converter) Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($72.10)
BB ($17.45)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($67.80)</font>
<font color="#C00000">MP ($52.50)</font>
CO ($31.15)
Button ($100.95)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $6.75</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero....

matrix
11-18-2007, 09:03 PM
pushes.

AK is teh nutz preflop - postflop it's not so hot.

[ QUOTE ]
its just risking too much to win too little overall.

[/ QUOTE ]

look at any hefty sized pt database.

Do you make 14bb/hand with ANY hand???

DaycareInferno
11-18-2007, 09:07 PM
i raise to 17 and call a shove since you can do that with part of your range that won't be able to call a 3bet and won't be priced in to call a shove. it gives you a little bit more flexibility i think.

Profish2285
11-18-2007, 09:09 PM
No, I dont make 14bb/hand, not even close. However, we arent making 14bb/hand here either. Are we really folding out enough hands overall to make a push right? I dont think unknowns fold TT or JJ to a shove here, but they probably do fold AQ. When we are getting called we are flipping a coin best case scenario. Other times we are drawing slim or close to dead. (KK and AA respectively) I think at ssnl pushing here is correct as everyone plays alot more aggro, but people at the micros seem passive overall. Given NL50 is definitely much more aggro than NL25, but still. How often does villain have to fold pf for us to show a profit? We cant count on our profit from post flop as it really just isnt there, or at least I dont think so but maybe Im wrong.

shooot@04
11-18-2007, 09:09 PM
6 max I would def. re-raise here

Profish2285
11-18-2007, 09:11 PM
I think 4 betting a normal amount pf is again incorrect. What do you do when he flat calls you and the flop comes ragged? Or worse, when it comes QJ3 or something like that? Here is one more problem. Do you take this same line with AA and KK or do you 4 bet smaller, or do you flat call? Against a reg if you are only doing this with AK you have to become pretty exploitable I would think. I have been experimenting alot recently with not 4 betting at all and it works well except for with AK.

bsball8806
11-18-2007, 09:14 PM
You posted a similar situation with AKo, except last time the UTG raised to 3x bb, and the BTN min raised him. I said raising was the correct play there, but was in the minority. I believe 4 betting is the correct play here, as well. Just because he 3bet you doesn't mean he has AA or KK. An unknown could be doing this with 99, 10's, J's, Q's, AK, or AQ as well. I think calling is a bad play, but folding is even worse.

corsakh
11-18-2007, 09:16 PM
I usually just call and see the flop. MP reraise of UTG is pretty tight no matter how you look at it if he has any clue.

DaycareInferno
11-18-2007, 09:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think 4 betting a normal amount pf is again incorrect. What do you do when he flat calls you and the flop comes ragged? Or worse, when it comes QJ3 or something like that?

[/ QUOTE ]

you just make a decision based on who you're playing and what you think they might be doing. most decent players aren't going to coldcall a 4bet at 100bish stacks with anything unless they're trying to trap a fish with AA/KK. if you can put some more of your range to work here, it will greatly benefit you.

edit: flatcall that is

Profish2285
11-18-2007, 09:17 PM
Bsball I think this situation is different as before it was 3 bet before it even got to me. Onto this hand, I agree with you that just because he 3 bets doesnt means its AA or KK. However, once we 4 bet we are narrowing his range down alot further. Of all the hands you just listed the only one we dominate is AQ and Im fairly confident AQ gets mucked by the majority to a huge shove like that.

Profish2285
11-18-2007, 09:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I usually just call and see the flop. MP reraise of UTG is pretty tight no matter how you look at it if he has any clue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Corsakh so what do you do when you miss 66% of the time? I am guessing c/f but that seems like a huge spew of cash over time. Heres the thing with calling from my perspective. Most of the times you miss so you lose your initial investment. Othertimes you hit, you get a c-bet from villain and there goes the hand. Othertimes you hit and you get no action from villain as his QQ or JJ are now scared. Sometimes you just trapped AQ and can probably take a sizable pot. Lastly, you hit and are still dominated and lose your stack. So either you lose a little most of the time, win a little sometimes, win a stack Id say once in a while but definitely less than the first two scenarios, and sometimes you lose huge. Even assuming that when you stack villain counteracts when villain stacks you, the first scenarios put you in the red. Sorry if this sounds confusing, Im not sure how else to put this.

corsakh
11-18-2007, 09:37 PM
We are not discussing a 3bet light situation, are we? If I have a suspicions I am getting 3bet light, AK is the nuts. I thought we were talking about a tighter range, somewhat like JJ+, AQs+. We put 5 into 7, we need hit 35%. Taking into account straights and flushes we hit more often than that. Many people dont even cbet without a pair. When they do we usually are against a pair and are behind.

bsball8806
11-18-2007, 09:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Bsball I think this situation is different as before it was 3 bet before it even got to me. Onto this hand, I agree with you that just because he 3 bets doesnt means its AA or KK. However, once we 4 bet we are narrowing his range down alot further. Of all the hands you just listed the only one we dominate is AQ and Im fairly confident AQ gets mucked by the majority to a huge shove like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fish, I agree with you that these are different situations. However, if we raise (AKs on this hand, AKo on the other hand), don't you agree that we can get hands like 9's, 10's, and J's (possibly QQ), to fold? AQ isn't the only hand that 3bets us, but folds to a reraise..

Profish2285
11-18-2007, 09:42 PM
Corsakh, no Im not talking about 3 betting light. I generally give people alot more credit when they 3 bet my UTG or MP raise than anywhere else. Thats a good point about the addition of straights and flushes. It just seems inherently bad to call at first glance as QQ or JJ takes our money 65% of the time and even the other times we only get so little of theirs in return post flop.

Bsball, honestly, unless villain is a tag, I dont think we can get him to fold 99-JJ. I think they will call and take a flop. I think if we shove we increase the rate that they fold those, but I dont think we increase that rate enough to make up for all the cash we are risking to accomplish this.

corsakh
11-18-2007, 09:44 PM
Ye but the problem is, 4betting commits you. They can still fold with AQ and TT. But anything they call with - you are screwed. You are putting your stack at risk for winning $9.

Profish2285
11-18-2007, 09:47 PM
See that was my exact point as well, risking so much to win so little and if we get called we expect to lose. Essentially, we are turning AK into a bluff by doing this except of course AK has better equity than 72o obviously. Maybe that statement just contradicted itself but it sounded right in my head. Your line of just calling would fit in perfectly with the rest of my style of not 4 betting except in rare situations so I guess that works best. I really hate playing AK oop.

Pokey
11-18-2007, 09:48 PM
There's already $9 in the pot right now, including the money from the blinds. A push is therefore risking $50 to win either $9 immediately or $59 at showdown.

Risking $50 to win $59 means you're looking at 59-to-50 odds, so you'd have to win 45.9% of the time for this to be +EV. Without having good information on villain it's hard to say what his range is for the preflop three-bet. Let's say villain calls this four-bet push with "QQ+, AK." Considering some of the dreck I've seen people call pushes with, this is insanely tight. Against this range, you will win 41.9% of the time by showdown. As an EV calculation, you're looking at:

0.419*(+$59) + 0.581*(-$50) = -$4.33.

Seems like a losing proposition, yeah? Not so fast....

A range of "QQ+, AK" is 2.6% of your preflop holdings. I cannot imagine that the average unknown player only three-bets 2.6% of the time. If we start throwing other hands into the mix the situation changes rapidly -- either your odds at showdown improve because the added hands fare badly against AKs or your folding equity improves when villain three-bets with a hand but folds to your four-bet push.

If you throw in AQs into villain's calling range, this becomes EV-neutral.

If instead villain three-bets with just 1.25% more hands that he then folds to a four-bet, this becomes EV-neutral. That would be "99, TT, and JJ," as an example, or "AQ."

A combination of the two makes it INCREDIBLY easy for this to be a +EV situation. In fact, it makes it hard for it NOT to be +EV.

Really, the only way this can be -EV is if (1) your opponent is INCREDIBLY tight with the three-bets and (2) your opponent will NOT fold to a four-bet all-in.

Think about that for a minute: do we really think that the sort of player who will only three-bet "AK, KK, AA" is happy to call a 4xPot reraise all-in from UTG while he's only holding KK/AK? We're literally in a situation where our opponent only has to fold a couple hand holdings, or only has to call with a couple bad hand holdings, for this to be EV-neutral.

I've seen unknowns call pushes with KQ, A4, QJs, and all sorts of random trash; just ONE of those hands makes this an easily +EV situation. I've seen unknowns fold KK to a four-bet push; that also makes this a +EV situation.

Ignore the past, plug your nose, and push. You'll be surprised how well it works in the long run.

Profish2285
11-18-2007, 09:53 PM
Im confused, pokey youre saying that if villain is calling with JJ-99 then a push is +EV? What I dont understand is that QQ is about the same as those equity wise against AK, no? While I do agree that people 3 bet light sometimes, I dont run into that pretty much ever if I am opening from either UTG or MP. Figure if villain 3 bets 99+ and AQ+ and calls a raise with all of those except AQ, how can pushing be +EV?

matrix
11-18-2007, 09:58 PM
If you raise and villain pushes - then what?

What hands push OTT of a 4bet preflop?

say we make it 17 (34bb) thats over a 1/3rd of our stack.

Pot odds after we get pushed on mean I think that we have to put villain on AA and ONLY on AA to make a fold correct and we can see one Ace already. If villain has KK and we have over 1/3rd of our stack the pot is offering us better than 2:1 odds. and AKs v KK is 34/66.

There are THREE combos of AA left out there when we have AK - villain has AA very rarely. If we are called by JJ+ we have made a +EV play - we are supposed to be making +EV plays and not caring much about the individual results.

Lets say we fold out villains AQ here - is that bad??

If we are against AQ we are praying for an Ace on the flop - that ace isn't coming very often if there are two accounted for already. If we are against KK or a worse pair and an Ace hits the flop what action do we get postflop? KK now curses their "Ace magnets" and we lose a lot of postflop monies...


There are 12 combos of AQ left there are 3KK's 6 QQ's 6 JJ's - so villain has a pp JJ+ here more often.

If we raise and villain flat calls often we end up gettin money in postflop even further behind - If we miss AQ flops a Q then hello reverse domination.

Preflop we have good equity vs his range - we have a bunch of FE vs his range - and AK hates just about every flop going for various reasons. Either we hit enough or miss and price ourselves in enough to get ourselves stacked when Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay behind. Or we shutdown our action. Or we tilt and fold and make a worse mistake.

Why not push preflop and take the easier +EV path? Postflop is a minefield and hoping that we will somehow outplay a villain *everytime* is wishful thinking.

Profish2285
11-18-2007, 10:03 PM
Matrix I completely agree with you about 4 betting a small amount. I think that is the worst of all the options. I guess folding is bad because we become fairly exploitable if we are folding everything to a 3 bet except QQ-AA. So that leaves us with calling and shoving. I definitely understand your points about calling, I guess maybe I am being too results oriented. I keep going back and forth right now about what is correct. Alot of this talk about pushing though is ending up with the knowledge of this being a neutral EV situation. I really dont like to put my stack in the middle of neutral EV spots. The way I see it is much more often than not, if someone is willing to 3 bet a UTG raise, they are also willing to get their stack in when we shove to them but maybe thats wrong?

Jailblazers
11-18-2007, 10:04 PM
If we are going to be pushing for 9x the 3bet raise, will people catch onto this that we ONLY do this w/ AK? Because I don't think many of us are over-betting all-in w/ AA or KK.

Pokey
11-18-2007, 10:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Im confused, pokey youre saying that if villain is calling with JJ-99 then a push is +EV? What I dont understand is that QQ is about the same as those equity wise against AK, no?


[/ QUOTE ]

No, what I meant was that if villain three-bets with 99-JJ but folds them to your push, that alone will win you the $9 pot often enough to make pushing EV-neutral.

[ QUOTE ]

While I do agree that people 3 bet light sometimes, I dont run into that pretty much ever if I am opening from either UTG or MP. Figure if villain 3 bets 99+ and AQ+ and calls a raise with all of those except AQ, how can pushing be +EV?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, but you're suffering from Psychic Villain Syndrome. You've given a reasonably tight range for villain, but you've then had him fold the ONLY hand that is significantly -EV against your range. Why are you sure he'd fold AQs but not 99? He surely can't put you on EXACTLY AK when you four-bet push; if he thinks there's a chance it's AA or KK he should be dumping 99-QQ into the muck, too. If he's convinced you're FOS, he's also calling with the AQ, making your showdown odds +EV.

Villain can't see your cards, so he's going to have a nasty time trying to respond perfectly to your push, here. If he folds the wrong kinds of hands, your play is +EV. If he calls the wrong kinds of hands, your play is +EV. It's pretty hard to come up with a realistic scenario where this push actually loses you money in the long run.

olliejen
11-18-2007, 10:15 PM
Profish, what range of hands does an average player in this game 3-bet here?

Profish2285
11-18-2007, 10:16 PM
I guess I am just being really results oriented but I ran into this situation once today and twice yesterday and got insta called in all 3 spots by AA, 99 and TT respectively. Obviously I am expecting the call from AA so that is whatever. But once I get called by the 99 and TT and both of them were from villains with taggy stats, I began to think about it alot.

Ollie, obviously that depends on where youre opening from. Like I said before though, I generally give villains ALOT more credit for their 3 bets when I open from either UTG or MP. So I would say a fair 3 betting range would be 99+ and AQ+.

Pokey
11-18-2007, 10:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Alot of this talk about pushing though is ending up with the knowledge of this being a neutral EV situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

You miss the point of the EV-neutral calculations. They're not to show you that the bet is neutral; they're to show exactly where the tipping point between "profitable" and "unprofitable" sits. After looking at the EV-neutral situations they look VERY conservative to me, meaning that most of the time a push is going to be extremely +EV, rather than neutral.

[ QUOTE ]

I really dont like to put my stack in the middle of neutral EV spots.


[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't think this way; rather, you should not care at all about putting your money in when the EV is neutral. If you fear EV neutral situations you're playing too conservatively, and it will cost you money in the long run as you flee from slightly +EV but high-variance situations. Stop fearing variance and your bankroll will thank you for it.

[ QUOTE ]

The way I see it is much more often than not, if someone is willing to 3 bet a UTG raise, they are also willing to get their stack in when we shove to them but maybe thats wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's wrong, but I also think it's irrelevant. If you shove and they always call, that will be very +EV (but very high-variance) in the long run, since they're three-betting with hands that are badly dominated by your range. If you shove and they fold frequently, that will also be very +EV in the long run, as you scoop that tasty $9 pot uncontested with a high frequency. The only way this is -EV for you is if your opponent's three-betting range is just SICKLY tight AND your opponent calls a 4xPot four-bet all-in with the entire range. I just can't see that as a likely scenario, so I think this is a highly +EV move.

Profish2285
11-18-2007, 10:23 PM
Pokey you make some very good points, I will definitely give you that. Okay, I guess its time to stop letting 3 bad hands affect me and keep pushing. One more question, what do you do against a villain who you know will call your shove with 99 and TT? Do you start to fold AK then and increase the times you do this with AA and KK, or do you just push AK each time anyway?

anthb7210p
11-18-2007, 10:26 PM
Does anyone like a small 4bet here? If you push, your likely only going to get called by hands you have suspect equity against (range maybe QQ-AA, AK), and if you call your most likely folding to a cbet. Folding your likely missing out on value against a tag who 3bets light.

LegendLength
11-18-2007, 10:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
so what do you do when you miss 66% of the time? I am guessing c/f but that seems like a huge spew of cash over time.

[/ QUOTE ]

But folding AK can also be though of as spew. 4 betting is probably the best option because of position but I also like to flat call here.

Depending on the villains cbet percentage you can check/call a ragged flop.

Pokey
11-18-2007, 10:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
what do you do against a villain who you know will call your shove with 99 and TT? Do you start to fold AK then and increase the times you do this with AA and KK, or do you just push AK each time anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just push AK each time anyway, and I'm even more happy to do so, because the player who calls 99 also calls AQ and KQ and probably a few other hands, so my overall winrate when pushing AK skyrockets:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
431,500,608 games 0.005 secs 86,300,121,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 55.609% 48.59% 07.01% 209683452 30269364.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 44.391% 37.38% 07.01% 161278428 30269364.00 { 99+, AQs+, KQs, AQo+, KQo }
</pre><hr />

Note that I'm now a FAVORITE against his range, rather than a dog. I'm now winning $60 six times and losing $50 five times, meaning I'm ahead about $10 PER HAND with a push.

Tasty.

anthb7210p
11-18-2007, 10:32 PM
right, but are people really 3beting UTG opens with hands like KQo, 99, TT, AQ?

ICMoney
11-18-2007, 10:33 PM
If I have AA I'm not shoving here. I 4b 2.5x or 3x or w/e.

I'd do the same with any hand I 4b with.

Pokey
11-18-2007, 10:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Does anyone like a small 4bet here?


[/ QUOTE ]

This seems like the worst possible choice to me. A small four-bet has less folding equity than usual, meaning you fail to grab that $9 pot that is definitely worth scooping up. Also, you're going to be OOP on three more betting rounds in a huge pot where you're going to miss the flop 2/3rds of the time. If you're going to build a huge pot OOP you really want to end the betting immediately. The best argument for a push here is that it completely eliminates any chances that you make an expensive FTOP mistake, and it maximizes the chances that your opponent makes an expensive FTOP mistake. That can be nothing but good for you.

OOP and against an unknown but probably aggressive opponent with a strong drawing hand, I'd rather just put it all in and see where the chips fall. Anything else is going to be more expensive in the long run.

[ QUOTE ]

are people really 3beting UTG opens with hands like KQo, 99, TT, AQ?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, they are.

Profish2285
11-18-2007, 10:38 PM
What about ICMoney's point though about the fact that we really arent doing this with AA and KK are we? If we are going to assume that a huge shove like this should get a fold from those 99-QQ hands often, then we surely shouldnt do it with AA and KK. If we arent doing it with either of those hands, then doesnt this play become fairly transparent?

matrix
11-18-2007, 10:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What about ICMoney's point though about the fact that we really arent doing this with AA and KK are we?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why aren't we?

we shouldn't make ANY play 100% of the time should we (talking about playing this vs a thinking TAG that is)

why shouldn't we 4bet push AA or KK if the TAG is going to see through our sneaky play with "AK" and call with TT.

IF we pull this trick with KK and get all our chips in vs this TAG as an 88% preflop favourite isn't that TAG going to think twice about calling off his whole stack with JJ or worse again in thefuture? Once you put doubt in peoples minds - once we make them guess at what our holding really is - THEN they are GOING to make mistakes - big expensive mistakes and THAT is where our profit is - giving people the opportunity to make HUGE blunders is very very +EV.

anthb7210p
11-18-2007, 11:12 PM
the answer to this question depends on an unknowns 3betting range versus a UTG raise. At 25NL i feel its JJ+/AK making this a fold (43% equity) while at 50NL and above its probably a push because villans are 3betting lighter and are much more agressive preflop.

EMc
11-18-2007, 11:22 PM
I love a push PF but as I said I will do this with AA, KK, maybe QQ if I am raising/3betting a lot.

stu-unger
11-18-2007, 11:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I love a push PF but as I said I will do this with AA, KK, maybe QQ if I am raising/3betting a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

matrix
11-19-2007, 01:04 AM
some ye olde heavydance for my AK results...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=ssplnlpoker&amp;Number=799477 4

used to be my numero uno losing hand (yes I was playing it badly)

so far this db it's one of my biggest winners and thats despite hands like...

Party Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com (http://www.leggopoker.com) - Hand History Converter (http://www.leggopoker.com/hh)

CO: $25.21
BTN: $52
Hero (SB): $50.25
BB: $60.57
UTG: $49.75
MP: $105.50

Pre-Flop: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif dealt to Hero (SB)
2 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $2</font>, BTN folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6.50</font>, BB folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $21</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $35.25</font>, CO calls $4.21 and is All-In

Flop: ($50.92) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($50.92) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($50.92) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $50.92 Pot ($2.54 Rake)
CO showed Q/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif (a flush, Ace high) and WON $48.38 (+$23.17 NET)
Hero showed K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (two pairs, Aces and Fives) and LOST (-$25.21 NET)





Party Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players

Hero (UTG): $50
MP: $59.58
CO: $9.25
BTN: $32.31
SB: $67.70
BB: $77.06

Pre-Flop: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, 4 folds, <font color="red">BB raises to $8</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $50 and is All-In</font>, BB calls $42

Flop: ($100.25) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($100.25) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($100.25) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $100.25 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero mucked K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (high card Ace) and LOST (-$50 NET)
BB showed J/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (a pair of Jacks) and WON $97.25 (+$47.25 NET)

and because of hands like this....



Party Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players

BB: $116.95
UTG: $49.04
Hero (MP): $47.50
CO: $35.10
BTN: $24.18
SB: $161.56

Pre-Flop: A/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif dealt to Hero (MP)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $4.50</font>, 3 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $47.50 and is All-In</font>, CO calls $30.60 and is All-In

Flop: ($70.95) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($70.95) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($70.95) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $70.95 Pot ($15.40 Rake)
Hero showed A/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif (three of a kind, Kings) and WON $55.55 (+$20.45 NET)
CO showed T/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif (two pairs, Kings and Tens) and LOST (-$35.10 NET)

and then there are hands like this ....

Party Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players


UTG: $51.93
Hero (MP): $49.71
CO: $74.31
BTN: $51.77
SB: $62.12
BB: $80.73

Pre-Flop: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif dealt to Hero (MP)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $13</font>, 3 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $49.71 and is All-In</font>, CO folds

Results: $26.75 Pot

who knows what villain folded this last hand - I'm betting it was something like TT/JJ tho.