Beat the UIGEA from the bottom up

[Tuff_Fish]

Cross post to the software forum

xpost (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=13012799&an=0&page=0#Pos t13012799)

Tuff

[HSB]

That's really just a horrible horrible idea.

[beanie]

If you want to have a private game you can do it easily with software that exists. No one does it because it is too difficult to administer and the fact that you are running anything could open you up to perceived liability.

I am all for fighting the power but people won't leave what they are currently doing.

What I think gets lost in a lot of these arguments is that in about 3 hours I can play for 1/4 million dollars. So that is a big deterrent to starting from 0.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
Cross post to the software forum

xpost (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=13012799&an=0&page=0#Pos t13012799)

Tuff

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually there is considerable merit to this distributed computing and hosting idea.

Tuff I'll e-mail you with further, you may have "solved" a critical issue and significant legal problems. Plus costs a lot less than $1.2 mill to start.

I like the way you think!


D$D

[daedalus]

Great idea!

[beanie]

there is nothing stopping all of you from doing this today using free money tables.

[daedalus]

[ QUOTE ]
there is nothing stopping all of you from doing this today using free money tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

And making this an open source project (ie. sourceforge) will provide the programmers and testers we need. This could be the elegant solution we've been waiting for.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there is nothing stopping all of you from doing this today using free money tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

And making this an open source project (ie. sourceforge) will provide the programmers and testers we need. This could be the elegant solution we've been waiting for.

[/ QUOTE ]

Playchip wise it flys.

Getting a workable secure legal payment method is still a problem. As is hosting, how do you pay for the servers?


D$D

[TheCutter]

But playability, have you ever tried going through 7 different lobbies at a time, looking for the game you need, only to find empty tables? You need it centralized. At least make all the servers report to a central lobby... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Skallagrim]

Tech and money stuff is for other folks who know it far better than me.

Legally, this idea would work in many states, but not necessarily all. In about 20 or so there would still be open legal issues. For example, in at least 3 states (WA, LA and IL) players would be in clear violation of state law, if that state law is constitutional under the commerce clause.

Tuff, sometime before the Thanksgiving weekend is over I will send you a comprehensive list of the states and their individual issues so you will have a reference for your ideas.

Id send it sooner but the day job comes first.

Keep the ideas coming!

Skallagrim

[Tuff_Fish]

[ QUOTE ]

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Id send it sooner but the day job comes first.

Keep the ideas coming!

Skallagrim

[/ QUOTE ]

Day jobs are overrated.

But thanks.

Tuff

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
But playability, have you ever tried going through 7 different lobbies at a time, looking for the game you need, only to find empty tables? You need it centralized. At least make all the servers report to a central lobby... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hence the rub.

A completely distributed platform might work for play chips but any real money games require some comonality and centrality. Then you have issues with security and functionality.

All are not oversurmountable issues IMO.

Working on it,


D$D

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

.
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Id send it sooner but the day job comes first.

Keep the ideas coming!

Skallagrim

[/ QUOTE ]

Day jobs are overrated.



[/ QUOTE ]

What are those? /images/graemlins/grin.gif


D$D

[Grasshopp3r]

The method to support the site is donations. Think along the lines of tipping the dealer. There is massive cash flow if players are given the option to tip. Plus, you can run tourneys for whatever is taken in that exceeds expenses. Those that tip can play. How about that for elegant solution?

[Tuff_Fish]

[ QUOTE ]
The method to support the site is donations. Think along the lines of tipping the dealer. There is massive cash flow if players are given the option to tip. Plus, you can run tourneys for whatever is taken in that exceeds expenses. Those that tip can play. How about that for elegant solution?

[/ QUOTE ]

Those that tip can play.

Again, you are creating a "Pay for play" situation. I know it is a nitty position, but that is exactly what the opposing authorities will be searching for. You cannot have ANY requirements or conditions with regards to compensation in return for the privilege of playing.

Should an AG wish to bust the site, they will send somebody to play, and that person will refuse all requests for tips, donations, beer, anything. If, at any time, that person is denied the right to play on the site in any way, even special tournaments...., BUSTED.

So, whatever funding mechanism is conceived, it has to be completely voluntary. Then you get the old, "let somebody else pay while I play".

It is a tough problem. How do you deal with the freeloaders? If they don't tip, and a large number won't, you can't kick them off. It is different in a B&M. There is a not so subtle expectation that you tip, and if you consistantly refuse, everyone around you will call you a jerk and worse. You can certainly get away with not tipping, but your B&M trip will not be a pleasant one.

On the internet, nobody cares if they are called a jerk, even if they can't turn off the chat. If they are getting a free ride, they could care less.

Tuff

[tsearcher]

Would it be legal to offer a subscription service? You don't pay a rake or to play, just a monthly fee to log on. Or could you have a subscription service for something else (stock market info, news, music, porn, etc.) that offers poker as a free bonus?

[Tuff_Fish]

[ QUOTE ]
Would it be legal to offer a subscription service? You don't pay a rake or to play, just a monthly fee to log on.

.
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Not legal, it is pay for play.
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Or could you have a subscription service for something else (stock market info, news, music, porn, etc.) that offers poker as a free bonus?
.
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If the right to play is conditional in any way to the purchase of something else..., Illegal. .
.



[/ QUOTE ]

Even selling food and drink in the same proximity as a poker game, ie, having a poker game in the back room of your bar, has been ruled illegal in a number of cases. Even though the purchase of said food and drink is completely voluntary, and you would never be asked to leave if you did not partake.

Again, the actual law may vary, and it is totally lame, but authorities have had a decent track record when they have chosen to push the issue.

TF

[_dave_]

[ QUOTE ]

Even selling food and drink in the same proximity as a poker game, ie, having a poker game in the back room of your bar, has been ruled illegal in a number of cases. Even though the purchase of said food and drink is completely voluntary, and you would never be asked to leave if you did not partake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, that scuppers a lot of the potential ideas I was thinking about /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I was just pondering the idea of free-to-play, but one could purchase "value-added" services if so desired. I guess that's a no-go now /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Looks like the tip-the-dealer model is the most legally viable view... which makes me think:

[ QUOTE ]

It is a tough problem. How do you deal with the freeloaders? If they don't tip, and a large number won't, you can't kick them off. It is different in a B&M. There is a not so subtle expectation that you tip, and if you consistantly refuse, everyone around you will call you a jerk and worse. You can certainly get away with not tipping, but your B&M trip will not be a pleasant one.

On the internet, nobody cares if they are called a jerk, even if they can't turn off the chat. If they are getting a free ride, they could care less.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you so sure?

What if people had a "rating" visible to other players, indicating how much of a baller/freeloader they were? What if requirements for the game were - not as touted - multiple / frequent name changes, but that you could only ever play under your *real*, verified name and location?

I'd imagine people would be far less apt to behave like an antisocial git if it was their real identity at stake /images/graemlins/smile.gif

lol, just ideas.

dave.

[Grasshopp3r]

Well, the cost of providing the service is incrementally low for each new table, so I don't see freeloaders as a problem.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, the cost of providing the service is incrementally low for each new table, so I don't see freeloaders as a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but the first few are a real problem.

I may have a solution I'm working on, we'll see. I missed a call today with an update on the legal prospects.

But it really follows Tuff's dream of getting on-line US poker without trying to make a massive killing. Of course there will be a little profit but most of that is pretty much given away to attract the necessary parts.

If this flys thank Tuff for his dream and inspiration!

Imagine there's no UIGEA
It's easy if you try
No e-pass below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the poker
Playing for today

Imagine there's no countries laws
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to gain or fight for
And no rake too
Imagine all the people
Playing poker in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will play as one

Imagine no affiliates
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or scandal
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one


Sorry John!

(Lennon)


D$D

[Tuff_Fish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, the cost of providing the service is incrementally low for each new table, so I don't see freeloaders as a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but the first few are a real problem.

I may have a solution I'm working on, we'll see. I missed a call today with an update on the legal prospects.

But it really follows Tuff's dream of getting on-line US poker without trying to make a massive killing. Of course there will be a little profit but most of that is pretty much given away to attract the necessary parts.

If this flys thank Tuff for his dream and inspiration!

Imagine there's no UIGEA
It's easy if you try
No e-pass below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the poker
Playing for today

Imagine there's no countries laws
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to gain or fight for
And no rake too
Imagine all the people
Playing poker in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will play as one

Imagine no affiliates
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or scandal
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one


Sorry John!

(Lennon)


D$D

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you got that on a sound track yet?

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Tuff

[crzylgs]

how do you plan on preventing cheating? without a central server each "dealer" computer can make whatever modifications to the code it likes.

[_dave_]

[ QUOTE ]

how do you plan on preventing cheating? without a central server each "dealer" computer can make whatever modifications to the code it likes.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is preventable / detectable, search "Honest Hold'Em"

[Tuff_Fish]

[ QUOTE ]
how do you plan on preventing cheating? without a central server each "dealer" computer can make whatever modifications to the code it likes.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, how many PC games have you decompiled and fixed so as to beat your buddies?

The server program and clients are not going out to you as source code, you get it in finished form on a disk like turbotax. I imagine the authors can insure that if you mess with it, it won't run. Just my assumption, I am no computer geek.

Tuff

[_dave_]

[ QUOTE ]

So, how many PC games have you decompiled and fixed so as to beat your buddies?


[/ QUOTE ]

Is commonplace /images/graemlins/frown.gif usually used for spanking unknowns rather than buddies, however.

[ QUOTE ]

The server program and clients are not going out to you as source code


[/ QUOTE ]

They probably should. (EDIT: The only good reason to conceal source code is that it contains vulnerabilities)

Use an SHA checksum or whatever to check the executable is legit.. but a decent system should not be scared of revealing source code, and should do so whenever possible. If errors are found, sweet /images/graemlins/smile.gif fix it!

dave.

[crzylgs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how do you plan on preventing cheating? without a central server each "dealer" computer can make whatever modifications to the code it likes.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, how many PC games have you decompiled and fixed so as to beat your buddies?

The server program and clients are not going out to you as source code, you get it in finished form on a disk like turbotax. I imagine the authors can insure that if you mess with it, it won't run. Just my assumption, I am no computer geek.

Tuff

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all I haven't done it myself but there are thousands of people cheating at online games right now (OMG HAX) but that's beside the point here since client-side hacks would be useless against well-designed server software.

What I was getting at is this: if there are going to be hundreds (or more) of these "mini-servers" how are you going to verify they're all using your "approved" software? With so much money at stake, I guarantee to you that the server software will be hacked and rigged within a week of hitting the market. And honestly this is probably a much smaller problem than the problem of payment processing.

[_dave_]

For some reason I can't edit /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Tuff:

One does not need source to hax a client /images/graemlins/frown.gif (Search google for "Cheat Engine" or "T-Search") but see my above response. One can verify the legitimacy of clients somehow.

[crzylgs]

[ QUOTE ]
Use an SHA checksum or whatever to check the executable is legit.. but a decent system should not be scared of revealing source code, and should do so whenever possible. If errors are found, sweet /images/graemlins/smile.gif fix it!

dave.

[/ QUOTE ]

So who's going to check these hashes?

Edit: also checking clients is going to be a waste of time, since they're not going to be receiving any exploitable data in a well-designed (and non-rigged) system. Checking servers is what I'm talking about.

[_dave_]

[ QUOTE ]

So who's going to check these hashes?


[/ QUOTE ]

Any homegame client interfacing with another?

[ QUOTE ]

Checking servers is what I'm talking about.


[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC this is a p2p system, each client is also a server. Am I missing something here?

Also note I am here purely in the hypothetical, shooting out ideas - gambling is for some reason not a crime where I live /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So, how many PC games have you decompiled and fixed so as to beat your buddies?


[/ QUOTE ]

Is commonplace /images/graemlins/frown.gif usually used for spanking unknowns rather than buddies, however.

[ QUOTE ]

The server program and clients are not going out to you as source code


[/ QUOTE ]

They probably should. (EDIT: The only good reason to conceal source code is that it contains vulnerabilities)

Use an SHA checksum or whatever to check the executable is legit.. but a decent system should not be scared of revealing source code, and should do so whenever possible. If errors are found, sweet /images/graemlins/smile.gif fix it!

dave.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not think it is an issue of the source code, but security of its application and IMO the need for robust security on the centeral server, hence the need for such a server.

Once you add in real money to the issue, you have additional issues of security, provention of minors participation, IP blocking of jurisdicitions, and the desire of some to address problem gamblers; you may agree as I do that some form of centeral server power is needed to be sucessful.


No Tuff don't have it recorded yet.


I sing even worse than I play poker! /images/graemlins/blush.gif



D$D

[Tuff_Fish]

OK, I quit,

In this area I clearly do not know what I am talking about.

You guys fix this problem. OK?

Tuff

[Grasshopp3r]

The game servers address the hax problem with code verification at launch. There are programming or other solutions to all of these issues.

Much of the fraud is committed by social engineering, which allows the perp to access the victim's secure data by convincing the victim to give it up, ie, fake support, etc.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]

IIRC this is a p2p system, each client is also a server. Am I missing something here?

Also note I am here purely in the hypothetical, shooting out ideas - gambling is for some reason not a crime where I live /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite willing to show "my" hand just yet.

But so far from all that has been disussed here and in other places there seems a pretty good chance there is a solution that doesn't depend on much else; the WTO, Congress, the PPA, or 12 - 18 months for MGM or Harrahs.

Like all poker hands it is currently a matter of evaluating the legal "table" and making the right "bets" to best position for a +EV outcome.

In part from Tuff's input as well as unnamed others the +EV is not a single individual or even a group of people but the larger poker community.

Personally if I can cover my potential legal costs, I'm all-in. I just can not say I have a dealer's count of all the bets on the table just yet. But from an early count it looks +EV.




D$D

[tangled]

What if a company just offers this service to the public as a courtesy. I don't know, say, a beer company or (don't laugh) a male enhancement company or a wrestling company etc. The point is, a company that appeals to the major demographic that uses online poker, young adult males, and a company that would not be hurt by a FOF-type backlash boycott. Their motive would be to increase their name recognition.

They also could ask for donations and give those to charity to make better sure the DOJ stays off their backs.

Stupid idea ?

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
What if a company just offers this service to the public as a courtesy. I don't know, say, a beer company or (don't laugh) a male enhancement company or a wrestling company etc. The point is, a company that appeals to the major demographic that uses online poker, young adult males, and a company that would not be hurt by a FOF-type backlash boycott. Their motive would be to increase their name recognition.

They also could ask for donations and give those to charity to make better sure the DOJ stays off their backs.

Stupid idea ?

[/ QUOTE ]

The indirect profit or even charity angle are somewhat problemative. The charity model showed a lot of promise but suffered from individual State issues among others.



D$D

[Grasshopp3r]

Larry Flynt is a big poker player.

[Tuff_Fish]

See my last post in this same thread in the software forum.

Things are becoming less cloudy as time goes on.

It is just a question of if and when someone can turn the open source code into a decent poker site package.

Tuff << living in interesting times