It's my biggest leak, I've posted so many hands, and still...

[iheartponeez]

I don't know how to get away from overpairs on a safe flop against an unknown.

I 3-bet my big pockets preflop, get cold called, make my c-bet on a safe board and get flat called there. Now I'm lost. Most of my stack is in the middle, and I have no idea where I stand. One bet later it's all in and my hand is crushed. I'm just totally at a loss in these spots. Do I just have to chalk it up to variance, or do I have to slow down when someone takes my 3-bet in stride?

[dazraf69]

Push

[Profish2285]

From how it sounds you are running bad, but this obviously also depends on who you are 3 betting and how big is your overpair? Obviously 99 on a 245 board is very different from QQ.

[vixticator]

Define overpair, keep betting mostly. Get it all in somewhere most of the time as well.

[iheartponeez]

Well, I do. Because I do. But I'm wondering if there's a better way because I think it's consistently losing me money. I mean, if I'm pushing on xxx with JJ, why am I not just pushing preflop? If I'm ahead pre, then most things I'm ahead of post-flop are folding, and I'm probably getting it in against more bad hands by just shoving preflop, or something, right? Or am I just hoping TT calls my 3-bet? By waiting for the flop I give worse hands a chance to draw out, and better hands are just stacking me no matter what, it seems...is this all crazy talk?

[iheartponeez]

Overpair meaning JJ+. I'm not shoving 99, I rarely even 3-bet 99 because I imagine most callers are now crushing my hand. Generally JJ+.

[Profish2285]

Then youre probably running bad. The reason why you dont just push pre flop is because people are much less likely to call an all in with 99 pf. However, when they have 99 on that 245 board and have put in two bets pf already, they can talk themselves into being committed and/or convincing themselves you have AK.

[iheartponeez]

I guess another issue is that when I have a vulnerable overpair, JJ or QQ, it seems like I'm just looking to win a medium pot on the flop, because once I get a caller I'm committed, and I feel like I'm getting flat called more often when I'm behind (2-pair, better overs). Maybe this is all just variance, or maybe I'm just running into especially tricksy villains, but I really do think that a flat call on my JJ preflop means "This might be terrible." But I might just be on a bad streak and being over-concerned. Win a medium pot, or lost my stack seem to be the two ways it can go vs. someone vaguely intelligent.

I guess I just want to be able to avert this sort of streak in the future.

[EMc]

your biggest leak is you think this is a leak

[Profish2285]

First of all, in general, you shouldnt be looking to play gigantic pots with one pair hands unless villain is giving you a reason to. If you think you can squeeze 3 streets of value from someone who overplays top pair or a draw then go for it, but in general youre not getting huge value from an unimproved JJ. That is of course talking about regular pots. In re raised pots youre going to be felting overpairs almost always. You also cant be worried that because someone flat calls you pf or on the flop that youre beat obviously. It depends on the action of the hand is going. Most people are 3 betting QQ-AA pf so you shouldnt be running into those too often. Many times when you get flat called on the flop it is a weaker overpair or a top pair hand, so again, you shouldnt go into a defensive stance by default.

[creamfillin]

If you're playing extremely nitty and predictable than I could see your big overpairs getting cracked more often. You need to c-bet once and awhile multiway with air to protect your overpairs.

I doubt this is the case and you are just running cold. Playing overpairs profitably is something you get a feel for as you play more hands. Generally you want to felt your big pairs, esp. in 3-bet pots. If you can manage to put someone on a narrow range and you're getting alot of heat, then you need to lay them down, otherwise you can't be afraid that you're beat all the time.

[iheartponeez]

Oh I c-bet like a mofo, believe. And I'm certainly not above the occasional 3-bet with air/c-bet FTW. Playing scared pre-flop/on the flop isn't a leak of mine (in fact, I think I'm too aggro on the flop).

I have no issue betting my JJ into a Kxx board or something, I just keep getting cracked on rags, and every time I felt it I go, "This is bound to be KK." And it is, or 2-pair. It's most likely just my paranoia though, because I looked in pokertracker, and QQ and JJ are both very profitable hands for me, so I guess this is mostly just a sanity checkup. But thanks for the advice all.

[traz]

fwiw I don't 3bet JJ alot of the time, but that might not be all that relevant

[Waingro]

If I rr pf with TT+ and get called and proceed to flop an overpair I am happy to felt it 85% of the time. The rest of the time I begrudgingly felt it.

[iheartponeez]

[ QUOTE ]
If I rr pf with TT+ and get called and proceed to flop an overpair I am happy to felt it 85% of the time. The rest of the time I begrudgingly felt it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you generally 3-bet with TT? From any position? At what level? Is this move profitable for you? I've been looking to expand my 3-bet range a bit, so do you think it plays well?

[z28dreams]

[ QUOTE ]
your biggest leak is you think this is a leak

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very true. There are probably a lot of other spots you should worry about more. At the very worst, over pair vs. raise situations are very very marginal situations.

I was running through some hands with orange, and he pretty much told me that "felting overpairs at 25nl is hardly a mistake"

[iheartponeez]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your biggest leak is you think this is a leak

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very true. There are probably a lot of other spots you should worry about more. At the very worst, over pair vs. raise situations are very very marginal situations.


I was running through some hands with orange, and he pretty much told me that "felting overpairs at 25nl is hardly a mistake"

[/ QUOTE ]

I've moved on to 50, but I imagine it's similar.

[Baintz]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh I c-bet like a mofo, believe

[/ QUOTE ]

I lol'd

[Waingro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I rr pf with TT+ and get called and proceed to flop an overpair I am happy to felt it 85% of the time. The rest of the time I begrudgingly felt it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you generally 3-bet with TT? From any position? At what level? Is this move profitable for you? I've been looking to expand my 3-bet range a bit, so do you think it plays well?

[/ QUOTE ]
I began my post with "if". That means I have already made some assumptions about my opponent and the situation before I 3bet with midpairs and the inevitable stackoff postflop. I do not 3bet all the time, so many opponents have ridiculously tight raising ranges.

[Xanthro]

Like others said, you could just be running bad.

In a re-raised pot, I'm going with AA or KK unimproved (unless extremely deep). Most of the time people don't have implied odds to set mine in these hands. I'm more careful with JJ or QQ, but there are usually still pretty strong hands.

The problem is you will run into streaks where your pre-flop monster just gets crushed over and over. It's just variance. It's going to happen.

[Hail Eris]

Always felting overpairs on safe flops can't possibly be anyone's worst leak at uNL.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
your biggest leak is you think this is a leak

[/ QUOTE ]

[orlov]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I do. Because I do. But I'm wondering if there's a better way because I think it's consistently losing me money. I mean, if I'm pushing on xxx with JJ, why am I not just pushing preflop? If I'm ahead pre, then most things I'm ahead of post-flop are folding, and I'm probably getting it in against more bad hands by just shoving preflop, or something, right? Or am I just hopitng TT calls my 3-bet? By waiting for the flop I give worse hands a chance to draw out, and better hands are just stacking me no matter what, it seems...is this all crazy talk?

[/ QUOTE ]
People will call on a 245r flop with TT or 99 because almost everyone puts you on ak in a 3bet pot(well atleast for me thats true, no1 ever folds to my cbet in those spots unless there is A or a K on the board