The Übernit

[Gelford]

Errr OK (the traditional cardrunners video intro) I am writing a post on the übernit, I've been wanting to do this for a while, and todays discussion about starting hands in another post made me decide to finally follow thru.


First of all, why would anyone play nitty, when LAG is sooo sexy ?

Second is it good poker ??

Finally aren't you supposed to really concentrate on few tables, so that you can become amazingly good and play aba HU within a week or two?
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6145/lolcatraisebidyy3.jpg


Well, yes you are supposed to concentrate on a few tables ... and no! It is not good poker to play the übernit, but ..... this is uNL. The thing is, when you are a noob, you have no clue as to what is happening and what you are doing, so no matter how much you concentrate, you will still be a noob. The following will is simple and straightforward, and the good thing about it is, that it allows you to build experience. I hope to have constructed it in a way that is clean and will not force habits onto anyone that will have to be unlearned later, what I've tried to do is to just keep it simple.

Ok so what are we talking about, well ... it all started in the brew, people where talking about lagging up 10NL .. and I chimed in in my usual grumpy tone and claimed that if you just raised AQ+, 22+ pf and folded everything else, you'd still show a profit. ... and the übernit was born. So here it is.

The Pure Übernit
First in:
Raise 22+ and AQ+

Facing a raise without coldcallers:
Reraise QQ+
Call AK (and AQ)

Facing a raise with coldcallers:
Reraise QQ+
Call 22+ and AK.

Postflop:
HU: Cbet and give up if not connected
Threeway or more: Do not even bother cbetting, if not connected.

Bet sizing: 2/3rds to full pot.

And that is basically it.

Discussing the pure übernit: As you can easily see, it is not very good poker ... transparant as hell ... no regards for position (at least preflop /images/graemlins/wink.gif ) etc etc., but the thing is ... most pokerplayers truly play poor. They are there to enjoy themselves often and all in all, they like to bet, bluff and think that their opponents bluff. At lower stakes they play any two almost and will go broke with any piece of it even tho it is blatantly clear, that you are a nit. But there isn't much thought here, boring as hell ... fire up a zillion tables ! Still I have a feeling that you might very well show a nice profit playing like this even into SSNL is you table select well and change tables if you notice a good laggy reg on your left, who might decide to just pwn your sorry behind.

This basically requires players that are too loose and go too far with mediocre hands. Now what if we want to proceed. (If it is broken, then do not fix it, but if it starts to struggle, what then)


There are among other things two things that come into play.

The first is balance, the above is fairly transparent, so you might need to start doing something in order to get paid of (or not to get exploited).

The second thing is stealing, as you all know you can choose to construct your game around stealing instead of around value (this is value), but I will not talk about stealing here. (Just to be clear, there is a huge difference between stealing and bluffing).


Balance
So now that we have disregarded stealing, there is the matter of balance. So what am I talking about when I use the term balance here. I am thinking of Sklansky's chapther on bluffing frequencies in TOP (and not the more advanced Chen and Ankenmann stuff from MOP). Basically the thing is this. If we only bet when you have the nuts, then villian will notice this and adapt, so what do we do? We adjust and start to bluff. As you increase your bluffing frequency, your profit will increase until your frequency gets too wide and then it will decrease again ... until someday you might end up bluffing your way to BUSTO!


But if we do it right, there is an optimal bluffing frequency where your profit is maximized.


So what does this mean in context of the übernit? Well, if you consider the above as your value hands, then you can start adding hands that we can call bluffs. The point of these is not to show a profit on their own, but to increase the profit of your AK TPTK'ers and your sets etc.

Starting with the button, you can add more hands than the above. The button is the best position on the table, so here you can get hurt the least by playing hands of 'less' value ... next is the CO ... etc.

Basically what you hope to do is more or less nothing with each hand you add. Most of the time you will just raise pf ... and take it down with a cbet. But playing more hands will get you more action on when you hit something.

NOTE: If opponents are unobservant, you do not have balance your game.


More balance
There is turn play and 3betting play to consider. Again one approach to this is the same as above, you simply just add a few 3bets and 2nd barrels with 'nothing' in order to increase the profit on your good hands, if your 3bets or 2nd barrels with 'nothing' missfire, then no big deal .. villian has seen you 'bluffing' and is more inclined to pay you off when you have something. Again if you overdo this, then BUSTO is around the corner /images/graemlins/smile.gif



But how ... ?
How do you know if you should bet or not bet or .... on different flop?

Well pokerstove to the rescue.


But before I talk about stove, here is a definition of good poker:

Good Poker
When solving poker problems, they fall into two steps ... first is to accurately rate your opponent (is he aggro, how will he play this .. what part of his range will he fold, call and raise etc).

Once you have that down, the rest is math

So the uncertainty is your opponent. When playing a zillion tables like I myself sometimes do, then you have an average say 50NL villian and you adjust sliglty by taking your HUD into consideration, but HUD will now show everything .. like if he will only be aggro with semibluffs and play his made hands from behind or the other way around or ...

But accurately describing your opponent is key. So first some thoughts about your opponent and then stoving.


Pokerstove
We all know that if you put in a hand in stove and a range for villian, then it will evaluate your equity, so I will not talk about this, but there is also something else you can use it for. It is the how often does villian hold exercise.

Say you are facing a flop like JT3 and you want to know how often villian has hit a pair .. as you can see from your HUD or experience that he opens 22%?

What you can do is give yourself AK (the nut nonpair and then a two deuces on flop and river (unimportant as they are not really in his range, or at least there is very few hands in his range that hit those ducks)

3,220 games 0.005 secs 644,000 games/sec

Board: 3c 2d 2h Js Th
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.509% 36.27% 02.24% 1168 72.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 61.491% 59.25% 02.24% 1908 72.00 { 66+, A3s+, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }


Villian has a pair 61,49% of the time, which actually makes our AK look like bad, so question is if you want to cbet .. or call a cbet for that matter. Not that I've chosen a rainbow flop .. suits might even make this worse. Off course you need to know if villian will play back at your our not etc.


Or say that you wish to find out how often villian has a flush draw, well ... on a given board you give yourself top set and then complete the flushdraw without pairing the board and there you have it.

A final example could be how often does villian have an ace on an ace high flop ... give yourself KK and add in some ducks again and you got it. (you might hit the remaining 22 for quads in his range, but it shouldn't weight too much and not make much difference for the result).



So here is one tool to evaluate flop play etc for you, when you start to add more hands. (+ some of the common tools that float around a lot, but this is more unusual and I've learned it from The Bryce at STOXPOKER.com). It is simple as hell, but amazing that you don't think of it on your own, go figure.



Potcontrol
Sometimes when you hit a marginal hand like midle pair or tpnk on a DRY flop, you might consider checking behing either flop or turn in order to play a small pot, as it is WA/WB and not many cards can hurt you. Again like in the above it important to know who your opponent is. If you know he will not checkraise you without a hand, then bet/fold ... but if he is a tricky BASTARD !!!!! ... then take one of and you're in potcontrol land. (which we all know what is).




Gelford over and out, this is my attempt on a starting hands chart .... note that the AQ might well be a reverse implied odds hands vs an even greater nit (hehe .. drumroll). The thing I have attempted here is to keep it simple, but yet show enough to enable you too expand it on your own.

Keywords are
Value (that is the übernit itself)
Balance (adding more hands)

And knowledge of opponent, can I safely bet/fold or ??? ... and to assist in this, a quick course in pokerstove for those who didn't know these things.


NOT COVERED: Stealing, bluffing and all the sexy stuff, which takes skill and experience. This is intended as training wheels for noobs, but do not understimate this, I have been zillion tabling SSNL all year playing like this and it's been paying my rent just nicely (well at least until October .. I am no longer a poker pro, but now I'm just your Regular Joe).

[Gelford]

Note two things:

That I don't think you should call small pp's for set value and that AK/AQ play fairly bad oop for a pf call, when you're oop, so in the blinds AK might prefer that you 3-bet it

[thac]

Gelford, I /images/graemlins/heart.gif you.

[ICMoney]

Bump

give it some /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Edit: beat me to it

Thanks for the brew link

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
Gelford, I /images/graemlins/heart.gif you.

[/ QUOTE ]


Lol .. there aint nothing here, that is new to you

[thac]

Yeah but you described my style perfectly imo. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah but you described my style perfectly imo. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

We'll ... we started out together back in the day, didn't we /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[creamfillin]

Great post Gelford.

Don't think many people realize the true power of pokerstove. If you watch aba's videos you can definitely see that he's a pokerstove fiend and is a MAJOR part of why he is so successful.

[NL Newbie]

This is essentially The Bryce's stoxpoker video, which is the best non playing poker videos ive ever seen in my life.

He also goes into much more depth about stove, its worth it if you can buy the video as a single purchase for sure. Gets pretty confusing to, that guy is awesome and will probably chrush NL when/if(?) he makes the move to NL.

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
Great post Gelford.

Don't think many people realize the true power of pokerstove. If you watch aba's videos you can definitely see that he's a pokerstove fiend and is a MAJOR part of why he is so successful.

[/ QUOTE ]

or indeed some of the slightly improved tools that are coming available.

nh Gelford. people like to moan about 'recipe' type ideas here, but i wouldn't mind betting that they are the most popular posts and that this will help lots of beginners find their feet while they start learning to think about poker. this feels like the new tien 'raise that [censored] up'.

[takingcontrol]

quality.

[ZingZhang]

Sweet post, and an original introduction /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[vixticator]

I did this for about an hour and went on massive tilt.

[monkover]

do you consider me a noob gel?

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
I did this for about an hour and went on massive tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Shizzle12345]

you can beat 25NL playing 30/25, because everyone sucks postflop (i can at least probably). But you need like 60% rb, because of the sick rake. Way more profitable to exploit the hell out of all the fish because yo usee more flops, and you learn more stuff too. Once you learn to play this style you will move up very fast and beat limits like 50NL 100 and 200NL much faster. And its 10times more fun.

What you described is not real poker, lol.

[netstorm]

[ QUOTE ]
you can beat 25NL playing 30/25, because everyone sucks postflop (i can at least probably). But you need like 60% rb, because of the sick rake. Way more profitable to exploit the hell out of all the fish because yo usee more flops, and you learn more stuff too. Once you learn to play this style you will move up very fast and beat limits like 50NL 100 and 200NL much faster. And its 10times more fun.

What you described is not real poker, lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

please dont turn this post into a brag post for yourself. You were just lucky to go on a heater with those stats in uNL.

[_dave_]

Gelford, ty for posting.

A question:

[ QUOTE ]

Facing a raise without coldcallers:
Reraise QQ+
Call AK (and AQ)


[/ QUOTE ]...[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you should call small pp's for set value

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there a missing section on medium pairs here? or is anything <QQ to be dumped unless there is a cold-caller?

Many thanks,

dave.

[Shizzle12345]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you can beat 25NL playing 30/25, because everyone sucks postflop (i can at least probably). But you need like 60% rb, because of the sick rake. Way more profitable to exploit the hell out of all the fish because yo usee more flops, and you learn more stuff too. Once you learn to play this style you will move up very fast and beat limits like 50NL 100 and 200NL much faster. And its 10times more fun.

What you described is not real poker, lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

please dont turn this post into a brag post for yourself. You were just lucky to go on a heater with those stats in uNL.

[/ QUOTE ]
I never played like that at micro limits and i learned how to play at 100NL. It took me like 70k hands to learn. but i did a little experiment a while back and it worked very well. My stats at micro limits were more like 25/17, with W$WSf of 36 or something. But there are alot of bad tags, and fish who you can exploit big time. I mean vs some 60/14 fish you wanna see alot of flops... or vs a spazzy 23/18 who starts calling you down with middle pair after a while, stuff like that. It doesnt work for alot of players because they just spew at start and then give up without finetuning it.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
This is essentially The Bryce's stoxpoker video, which is the best non playing poker videos ive ever seen in my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only the stove part for which I've already credited him, the rest is me (or a cook up of aba, chen etc .. all the folks that showed me how to play when I swithed to cash a year ago)

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]

What you described is not real poker, lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

Luckily I never claimed it to be .... Also I've loud and clearly avoided the subject of stealing as well

Tho actually once you've gone thru the process of balancing your ranges, you can get very far playing like this.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
Gelford, ty for posting.

A question:

[ QUOTE ]

Facing a raise without coldcallers:
Reraise QQ+
Call AK (and AQ)


[/ QUOTE ]...[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you should call small pp's for set value

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there a missing section on medium pairs here? or is anything <QQ to be dumped unless there is a cold-caller?

Many thanks,

dave.

[/ QUOTE ]


Heh ... yes, there is a hole in the chart there. Basically I've avoided all marginal situations here, and those medium pp's often end up in marginal situations, where you need to read.

I prefer coldcalling those and then to play poker once the flop hits. Sometimes this means playing from behind (ip), sometimes it means folding a lot of flops ... and since we are not playing for set value, then in order to stay profitable, you sometimes represent a set as a bluff.


OOP is even more tricky .. against a tight raiser I fold a lot ... against a VERY loose raiser, you might threat say 99 like if it was the mortal nutz and repop him pf ... and for all those in between raisers, I might call with the intention of checkraising an appropriate flop (tho folding pf is never a large mistake)


Experience and stoving ftw! ... (And tbh, I've need to do a lot more stoving myself /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
I did this for about an hour and went on massive tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]


haha ... you limidonk /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I did this for about an hour and went on massive tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


Hmmm .... so this has even caught the eye of the experienced poster /images/graemlins/smile.gif


Well Ama, you're no noob, so if you want to test this out, add SC's and maybe SC1s to your pf ranges asap (but if you want to stay true to the übernit way of life, don't coldcall raises. Keep the pump working, primarily raising first in .. and only 3betting trash for balance once in a while)

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
do you consider me a noob gel?

[/ QUOTE ]


You're one of the few 2+2'ers that I don't have a big read on. So you must do something right /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[vixticator]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I did this for about an hour and went on massive tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha ... you limidonk /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]Heh, you are right that no one adjusts. That's what put me on tilt. Oh, that and all my big hands getting pwned. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

About 30 mins into it I started c/r'ing my mid/small pairs on the flop. I think one person folded and I did it like 9 times lol.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I did this for about an hour and went on massive tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha ... you limidonk /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]Heh, you are right that no one adjusts. That's what put me on tilt. Oh, that and all my big hands getting pwned. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Haha ... yeah, I should follow up with a 'Now that you gotten sets, overpairs and tptk cracked non-stop for weeks, why shouldn't you just jump out of the window' post

[sivadom]

Did a small experiment at .02/.05 along these lines just now, I didnt follow the rules exactly (sometimes called a raiser w PPs in position without any callers in between, sometimes made a few 3bets not prescribed against bad lags, etc) but i didnt play anything other than 22+, AQ+. Some pf folds felt a little gross, especially otb vs a limper or 2, or in BvB situations. I've never played as tight as this before (8/6.5, ubernit indeed) and i've never played more than 6 tables before either, but i bumped it up to 9-10 for this, but i dont think it caused any mistakes given the simplicity of the system. Obviously I ran pretty hot, didnt have AA or KK cracked once, and actually picked them up above expectation too. Anyway, I think i'm going to play a few thousand more hands and get a feel for what my actual winrate is, i'll post more results if anyone cares. Also, i'd be interested to know if anyone has tried this out at 10nl or above.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee7/sivadom/ubernit.jpg

[Vader4]

I've actually be experimenting with something similar as well. After dropping 7 buy-ins at 25NL pretty quickly at the end of October (I was trying to be too tricky), I decided to try an experiment for November. I dropped down to 10NL, and I've been playing 12/9 "mindless" poker, while multi-tabling. It's been working. Obviously it's VERY boring, but I've ran about 5.75/100PTBB over 10k. You'd be surprised how many times you think you are playing your hand face-up, but people still pay you off with mediocre hands.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee7/sivadom/ubernit.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha ... that is simply brilliant, let's gogogogogogo /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]
you can beat 25NL playing 30/25, because everyone sucks postflop (i can at least probably). But you need like 60% rb, because of the sick rake. Way more profitable to exploit the hell out of all the fish because yo usee more flops, and you learn more stuff too. Once you learn to play this style you will move up very fast and beat limits like 50NL 100 and 200NL much faster. And its 10times more fun.

What you described is not real poker, lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

I aggree with this. I think it`s an important step to try this. Also, it will help to convert you from 19/13 to 22/19 or so. I played this style to as an experiment and you can crush 25NL with a very laggy aggro style. People at 25NL just don`t know how to adapt to the constant aggression, and pay you off bigtime.

Also, for the people that say it`s not a good strategy for 25NL, I`m willing to make a prop bet, over 5000 hands for 200$.

rules:

I select my tables, no 2+2 to join tables on purpose to sabotage.

My stats have to be at least 33+/27+/4+.

winrate on the end of the 5000 hands must be at least 5ptbb.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you can beat 25NL playing 30/25, because everyone sucks postflop (i can at least probably). But you need like 60% rb, because of the sick rake. Way more profitable to exploit the hell out of all the fish because yo usee more flops, and you learn more stuff too. Once you learn to play this style you will move up very fast and beat limits like 50NL 100 and 200NL much faster. And its 10times more fun.

What you described is not real poker, lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

I aggree with this. I think it`s an important step to try this. Also, it will help to convert you from 19/13 to 22/19 or so. I played this style to as an experiment and you can crush 25NL with a very laggy aggro style. People at 25NL just don`t know how to adapt to the constant aggression, and pay you off bigtime.

Also, for the people that say it`s not a good strategy for 25NL, I`m willing to make a prop bet, over 5000 hands for 200$.

rules:

I select my tables, no 2+2 to join tables on purpose to sabotage.

My stats have to be at least 33+/27+/4+.

winrate on the end of the 5000 hands must be at least 5ptbb.



[/ QUOTE ]

Get the [censored] out of my post, this is not about your personal abilities playing LAG or whether it is important or not to learn how to play a style based on stealing. Nobody here is interested in your (or shizzle's) penis. Now [censored] off mate /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[PJo336]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you can beat 25NL playing 30/25, because everyone sucks postflop (i can at least probably). But you need like 60% rb, because of the sick rake. Way more profitable to exploit the hell out of all the fish because yo usee more flops, and you learn more stuff too. Once you learn to play this style you will move up very fast and beat limits like 50NL 100 and 200NL much faster. And its 10times more fun.

What you described is not real poker, lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

I aggree with this. I think it`s an important step to try this. Also, it will help to convert you from 19/13 to 22/19 or so. I played this style to as an experiment and you can crush 25NL with a very laggy aggro style. People at 25NL just don`t know how to adapt to the constant aggression, and pay you off bigtime.

Also, for the people that say it`s not a good strategy for 25NL, I`m willing to make a prop bet, over 5000 hands for 200$.

rules:

I select my tables, no 2+2 to join tables on purpose to sabotage.

My stats have to be at least 33+/27+/4+.

winrate on the end of the 5000 hands must be at least 5ptbb.



[/ QUOTE ]

Get the [censored] out of my post, this is not about your personal abilities playing LAG or whether it is important or not to learn how to play a style based on stealing. Nobody here is interested in your (or shizzle's) penis. Now [censored] off douchebag /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

there gel i hit him with the american version too

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]

there gel i hit him with the american version too

[/ QUOTE ]


LOL ... but yeah /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I can see people suffering from fgator syndrom soon ....

[monkover]

I can play lag too but my dick is still short! wtf is wrong with me?!

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
I can play lag too but my dick is still short! wtf is wrong with me?!

[/ QUOTE ]

At least you don't try to fake a large dick /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[AZplaya]

[ QUOTE ]
I can see people suffering from fgator syndrom soon ....

[/ QUOTE ]
lol if playing nitty leads to losing gator dollars at uNL then people seriously need to improve on there table selecting skills.

[MicroDonk666]

Figured I'd give this a shot as my usual megalag (donkey?) style has huge swongs and was kinda gettin me down. Up 13 buy ins in the last 2 days only playin a few hours each day but increasing my tables. Could be just an upswing but either way it got my confidence back, Thanks Gelford A+

[sightless]

i play similar but 21/18
i iso a lot

[sivadom]

Well, I’m not gonna lie. There’s been some reversals. I was really, I was really up big. I was cruising along. Man, I caught a frozen wave of cards like you [censored] read about.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee7/sivadom/ubernit2.jpg

lol anyway, it was quite the experiment. I was running at about 12ptbb/100 after the first 3k and just caught the inevitable nasty stretch. No hands worth mentioning, but pokerev says i'm running 2.5 ptbb/100 below expectation, and i'm sure i was hot before. A few things learned: I'd been drastically overestimating the value of image at 5nl. I'm much improved at table opening/closing dexterity after today. I am going to screw down my game a bit and see how I run at around 15/12 and work on extraction, this has really shown me how bad I am at it. All in all, it was fun, got me thinking, and i didnt lose money. win/win/win.

nh gelford.

[icanseeyourcards]

8/6/AF Infinite

might be the best style for 5NL ;-)

[vixticator]

Oh, wait. I misread OP and kept cold calling 22+ facing one raise and no other calls. That explains a lot.

[Lego05]

Good post Gelford though IMO eventually everyone needs to move out of this and add the uncovered dimensions to their game...and as you say "learn a style based on stealing) I still consider that a TAG style....at such a point obviously though it can cross to LAG.

I'm surprised when you said you played like this all year. What were your stats if you don't mind? You never thought about trying to loosen up and such with the goal of moving up through the levels and gaining a bigger edge by being able to profitably play more hands?



I remember when I first started playing cash games you were a somewhat rare poster but somebody for me to pay attention to. I would have thought you'd be playing above 100 now. I'm doing pretty good at 100 right now over a somewhat small sample. If you don't mind...have you tried playing higher?....and what did you think about it?

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
Good post Gelford though IMO eventually everyone needs to move out of this and add the uncovered dimensions to their game...and as you say "learn a style based on stealing) I still consider that a TAG style....at such a point obviously though it can cross to LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure ... I never said anything else, this is presented as a good place to start for those that need something solid from which they can work.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised when you said you played like this all year. What were your stats if you don't mind? You never thought about trying to loosen up and such with the goal of moving up through the levels and gaining a bigger edge by being able to profitably play more hands?


[/ QUOTE ]

No until recently I had no other income than poker and a monthly of around 2500$ (or more if I wanted to do something fun), So my primary concern was just to print money thru volume.

[ QUOTE ]

I remember when I first started playing cash games you were a somewhat rare poster but somebody for me to pay attention to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thx /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]

I would have thought you'd be playing above 100 now. I'm doing pretty good at 100 right now over a somewhat small sample. If you don't mind...have you tried playing higher?....and what did you think about it?

[/ QUOTE ]


I've been playing like this with a profit up to and including 200NL.


I never had the roll to play 400NL, so it's has all just been underrolled shottaking, that never succeeded. The thing with 400NL seems to be that pf aggression is huge, so I end up doing a good bit of flipping often which I don't mind having a pokereducation playing sngs, but it can be heavy on your roll.

I suspect you can grind out a profit like this at 400NL if you do not fall into the gator trap and adjust your bluffing frequencies so they match your opponents aggression and floating (also start to balance your riverplay .. in other words 3 barrel)


But if your question is, do I need to be scared of higher limits, then the answer is no .. there are fairly weak players everywhere it seems, but they do get more and more aggro tho.


Personally I have no longer any need to show a profit anymore .. and thus been experimenting a good deal (I did a 3 month stretch playing lag while shelling out a nice chunk on coaching about a year ago, it's not that I can't get my vpip over 30 if need be). Hopefully I'll be rolled for MSNL at the start of 2008 (Work is unfortunately cutting into my poker time /images/graemlins/frown.gif )

[Lego05]

I appreciate the response...and a very good one at that.



You mentioned poker education in sngs. I started my serious/I am playing for money online poker playing at sng's. I did it at Stars and started at $11 regular sng's. At the end I think I had about a 10% ROI at 27 turbos and like 2/3% at 60 turbos.

I'm just wondering what your sng experience was like?

Used SNGPT and the like?

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
I appreciate the response...and a very good one at that.



You mentioned poker education in sngs. I started my serious/I am playing for money online poker playing at sng's. I did it at Stars and started at $11 regular sng's. At the end I think I had about a 10% ROI at 27 turbos and like 2/3% at 60 turbos.

I'm just wondering what your sng experience was like?

Used SNGPT and the like?

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah, SNGPT and the works ... I used to cruise the Party 22s-33s, but then disaster stuck finally with me losing a zillion flips in a row (good, bad whatever, I lost it) and dropping 40BI. ... so I needed a break and hit 25NL .. and found that I could replicate an equal hourly on a much smaller roll

SNGs are a good learning place, since you can get by on pushbotting ... and the sheer volume of it can give you a lot of experience (and the creapy crawly nature of wa/wb lines in sngs make you actually also develop reads and skills after a while as well)


That being said, unless you're a poker noob or bigjoe, I can't see a good argument for playing sngs /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[kaz2107]

big joe is such a balla

[genius55]

i'm not gonna take time to read this, but gelford basically sucks at poker soi'm gonna assume it's a waste of time.

[genius55]

also, i have noevidence to base this on having never played wiht him or read any of his posts but imo i am probably right.

[corsakh]

New generation of Gelfoclones is coming /images/graemlins/smile.gif

ps Obviously a strategic move to create a bunch of nits for later pwnage at higher limits /images/graemlins/smile.gif

pss Somehow I am pretty certain you can cut this to JJ+, AK and still show profit at 25nl and below

psss Do you have a watermark?

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]

pss Somehow I am pretty certain you can cut this to JJ+, AK and still show profit at 25nl and below

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure ... KQo and AJo are the type of hands that I'd mostly suggest staying away from, but noone in reality plays this tight, so therefore it is not set in stone off course.

The key concept here is the concept of having value hands and balance hands. How you contruct both segments is your own responsability, but this is the bare minimum /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[corsakh]

Ye ye, awesome.
But what about the watermark?

ps I saw people playing AK, JJ+ on party 10NL fullring a year ago with my own eyes. They were winners apparently.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
Ye ye, awesome.
But what about the watermark?

ps I saw people playing AK, JJ+ on party 10NL fullring a year ago with my own eyes. They were winners apparently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hehe tried to ignore that, since I honestly do not know what a watermark is /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[corsakh]

Mm.. Its a sign of worthiness. Like the one you see on a dollar note when you put it against light. Or like the one you see in a corner of a new promotional poker coach video.

Every aspiring sen sei must have a watermark. If you are serious about acquiring many many followers you have to make yourself one, otherwise how will the donkeys seeking your teaching know this is genuinely your video masterpiece?

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
Mm.. Its a sign of worthiness. Like the one you see on a dollar note when you put it against light. Or like the one you see in a corner of a new promotional poker coach video.

Every aspiring sen sei must have a watermark. If you are serious about acquiring many many followers you have to make yourself one, otherwise how will the donkeys seeking your teaching know this is genuinely your video masterpiece?

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha .... the accent mate .. the accent, there is only one vid with that accent /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[corsakh]

Don't change the subject! Ve demands a watermarks!

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mm.. Its a sign of worthiness. Like the one you see on a dollar note when you put it against light. Or like the one you see in a corner of a new promotional poker coach video.

Every aspiring sen sei must have a watermark. If you are serious about acquiring many many followers you have to make yourself one, otherwise how will the donkeys seeking your teaching know this is genuinely your video masterpiece?

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha .... the accent mate .. the accent, there is only one vid with that accent /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

ehhh i'mmm gonna gamble.. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mm.. Its a sign of worthiness. Like the one you see on a dollar note when you put it against light. Or like the one you see in a corner of a new promotional poker coach video.

Every aspiring sen sei must have a watermark. If you are serious about acquiring many many followers you have to make yourself one, otherwise how will the donkeys seeking your teaching know this is genuinely your video masterpiece?

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha .... the accent mate .. the accent, there is only one vid with that accent /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

ehhh i'mmm gonna gamble.. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Or ... errr ok, let's flip! .... ohhh, he doesn't want to flip?

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mm.. Its a sign of worthiness. Like the one you see on a dollar note when you put it against light. Or like the one you see in a corner of a new promotional poker coach video.

Every aspiring sen sei must have a watermark. If you are serious about acquiring many many followers you have to make yourself one, otherwise how will the donkeys seeking your teaching know this is genuinely your video masterpiece?

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha .... the accent mate .. the accent, there is only one vid with that accent /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

ehhh i'mmm gonna gamble.. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Or ... errr ok, let's flip! .... ohhh, he doesn't want to flip?

[/ QUOTE ]

that's the one! lol /images/graemlins/heart.gif that vid a lot.

[AZplaya]

I tryed this for about 2K hands at NL$50 last night. Quite the learning experience. Made me realize how little even NL $50 players pay attention to anything but there own two cards. At one table I folded every hand for almost 7 orbits, finally picked up KK in the BB, squeezed to $8 and still got 2 callers lolz.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
I tryed this for about 2K hands at NL$50 last night. Quite the learning experience. Made me realize how little even NL $50 players pay attention to anything but there own two cards. At one table I folded every hand for almost 7 orbits, finally picked up KK in the BB, squeezed to $8 and still got 2 callers lolz.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes they realized you where trying to use your tight image to pull a bluff /images/graemlins/smile.gif


.. ... ... but there is no doubt that spending too much time here on these forums might give you an impression that pokerplayers are better than they in fact are.

[corsakh]

Enough talk.
Watermark or ban /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Chomp]

Gelford, if you are going to do another one of these posts, "The TAGfish" would be an excellent topic - I know you spent time recently studying them.

The problem with these guys is that 2 TAGfish with the same numbers can have widely differing ranges, and that can make it tricky to play them on occasion.

Cheers.

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
Gelford, if you are going to do another one of these posts, "The TAGfish" would be an excellent topic - I know you spent time recently studying them.

The problem with these guys is that 2 TAGfish with the same numbers can have widely differing ranges, and that can make it tricky to play them on occasion.

Cheers.

[/ QUOTE ]

aren't like 90% of us TAGfish? that description is pretty meaningless IMO. I think seeing people with tight stats who aren't that clever post flop and lumping them into one category to play against is silly. Find a reg and work out how to exploit them..

[well named]

"Two Plus Two Fish, TAGfish, Spewfish" by Gelford. Available at finer book stores everywhere.

[Gelford]

The Exploitation of The Tagfish.

I do not have much comment as I haven't put much effort into trying to exploit the tagfish. This is imo a 2+2 thing "Yo .. watch as my penis grows for every tagfish I pwn"

The subject does not really belong in this thread, as it really does not focus on exploiting fish (whether you sit to the right of a fish proper and iso-raise practically every hand or you find exploitable tendency in tagfish or lagfish)

A fish is pr. definition just a player you can exploit.


The Übernit is just about getting value on your better hands. With reads you can actually have a larger base of 'value hands' than the pure übernit vs the overly loose players (true fish) and you open your bluffing frequencies, when someone tries to exploit you.


I've been running 14/12 stats at times and yet never had the impression that anyone where trying to pwn my tagfish behind. Basically cos I can protect myself.

And that is the trouble with seeing a player with nitty stats and just going 'ohhh .. he is a tagfish'. There are plenty of things you can do to protect yourself if you are a tagfish, notable 3 barreling for stacks and less frequently checkraising turns all-in (or just flops)

Are you really willing to call a shove from a tagfish ???


Poker really isn't about vpip, but more how you balance. So all is about matching villians range with the board ... is it makes no sense, then it might be time for a stacksized bluff (don't try this at home, but that is the ultimate consequence of playing NAG (nit aggressive) ... you end up doing a fair amount of bluffing for stacks)

LoloItrickedU comes to mind .. he was a good old school powertag running vpip of 16 or so.


But just to sum up, feel free to exploit tagfish, just make sure first that they are of the exploitable kind /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[monkeymaps]

great post gelford...
I think this uber nit strat works great at 10NL and esp if you table select well.

there has some talk in uNL about playing more laggy @ stakes as low as 10NL and while I think this has some merit as you move up game condidtions I think should effect youre stlye more than just PT stats that should be ideal.

For example at 10NL on a friday night where you have 2 or 3 players than are like 40 vpip or higher at your table playing a LAG stlye is like burning money IMO cause that lag stlye depends somewhat on FE and in this game you pretty much never have any FE and you dont have to encourage these guys to call thin cause they do anyway

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
LoloItrickedU comes to mind .. he was a good old school powertag running vpip of 16 or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol you sure about that?

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LoloItrickedU comes to mind .. he was a good old school powertag running vpip of 16 or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol you sure about that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fairly ... unlike Bld and Samo, he would just nit up a lot of tables, but once he got involved in a pot, then ... (If nothing else, I tend to recall Empiremaker commenting on this in his infamous CR vid too)

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]

For example at 10NL on a friday night where you have 2 or 3 players than are like 40 vpip or higher at your table playing a LAG stlye is like burning money IMO cause that lag stlye depends somewhat on FE and in this game you pretty much never have any FE

[/ QUOTE ]


Well that is not quite true imo, Lag actually relies on good hand reading more than FE, you enter a lot of pots and valuebet very thin (and not just only bluff like mad)

Imagine this, you are at a table with four nits and one fish (loose passive fella). Then you will play lag not to bluff the fish, but to isolate him and then play a lot of pots, you don't mind him stacking you, as you know that as long as he doesn't leave, he will make mistakes and you will profit.

At a saturday night 10NL table you are playing only fish, so everytime you raise, you are isolating a fish ... but that does not mean you can't play a wide range and just read postflop. Still the latter is difficult, and if you have that kind of skill, then you perhaps shouldn't be playing 10NL. (Unless you've moved down to experiment)

[Triggerle]

Regarding being a TAGfish, I play a different nit style with some overlapping concepts and when people look over my play the first thing they say is OMG you are <u>so</u> exploitable. I fixed quite a few leaks over the last months by not preemptively countering exploitative strategies with -EV/high variance balancing strategies. This is because almost none of my opponents actually apply exploitative strategies: It doesn't matter if you are exploitable if noone exploits you.

Of course it helps to be able to spot and counter exploitation once it comes up but IMO that happens very rarely at nl50 and below and possibly even at higher limits if you table select well.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
preemptively countering exploitative strategies with -EV/high variance balancing strategies.


[/ QUOTE ]


I'm not sure what you are aiming at, but there is nothing in what I describe that is preemtive or -EV.


What is a float ... well, you call a raise with a wide range, then you pay a flop bet, because you know that the turn will not be bet without a hand.


Now the thing is, that when you have a very tight range, if you are playing against someone loose, then he can't stand to call several bets from you, especially the big bets on the end, simply because his range is behind yours. And it will still be if you add a couple of 3 barrel bluff


Off course if you add too many 3 barrel bluffs, then you'll end up spewing.


But there is nothing preemtive nor -EV here. You maximize profit by adjusting your bluffing ranges to gameconditions.


Easier said than done .. sure, but that is it.


It is also a healthy mental exercise .. a bluff was called, then the reaction is: Cool, He can't call everytime profitably, so valuetown here we come.


Instead of


Hyahcaychaychacya ... How can he call with that ... Hyachaycahdfy (Tiltville here we come)

[Triggerle]

Gelford,

This wasn't directed at you (at all).

It is a general observation I made. People who review my hands often say that I can't just check/fold flop after flop because then the opponents will know that I have it if I don't. Then I show them that after check/folding several flops people still pay me off 3 pot sized bets with TPGK because they only play their hands.

[AZplaya]

one thing I noticed with this style is it seems like it would be higher variance. My normal style is 23/17, and much of my profit comes from winning lots of small pots. Raising atc in LP and taking it down with a cbet, calling in pozz and steal the pot post flop, stealing blinds, etc. So I'm playing smaller hands in smaller pots and getting away when the pot gets bigger than my hand. With this style, I was running at about 14/11, and entering pots with only big hands. So most of the pots I played in I had a big hand and was usually betting 2 or 3 streets with it, and playing for stacks quite a bit. Just seemed a bit higher variance since I was playing mainly in 3 bet pots with big hands I was willing to felt with.

[Guthrie]

I also came to NL cash from SnGs, and just recently. I have 23K hands of NL25 6-max at 22.37/12.86 and 2.35 BB/100, and often feel somewhat lost, especially with the donks.

So I tried your ubernit stragegy for 1K hands at the nickel tables:

VPIP 6.21
VPSB 8.70
Folded SB to steal 100.00
Folded BB to steal 92.00
Att to steal 10.24
W$WSF 28.07
Went to SD 21.64
Won$ at SD 48.65
PF raise 4.75
BB/100 6.79

It felt rather odd, but seemed to work. I don't know how much of that was playing the much smaller limits, and how much was the strategy itself. I flopped a lot of sets, got paid on a lot of big hands, then toward the end of the sample started taking some terrible beats, so I guess it averaged out.

It took a lot of self restraint to not steal, not complete the SB, and not call minraises. I also tried to play the nit postflop, foregoing a lot of what I would have done as a LAG.

I can see where this strategy would work well for an absolute noob. Play it for a few thousand hands, then start stealing and adding some additional hands. Might be a reasonable substitute to the normal LAG strategy at 6-max until you develop good postflop skills.

I think somewhere between this and what I've been trying might be a workable strategy.

[Check_The_Nuts]

[ QUOTE ]
one thing I noticed with this style is it seems like it would be higher variance. My normal style is 23/17, and much of my profit comes from winning lots of small pots. Raising atc in LP and taking it down with a cbet, calling in pozz and steal the pot post flop, stealing blinds, etc. So I'm playing smaller hands in smaller pots and getting away when the pot gets bigger than my hand. With this style, I was running at about 14/11, and entering pots with only big hands. So most of the pots I played in I had a big hand and was usually betting 2 or 3 streets with it, and playing for stacks quite a bit. Just seemed a bit higher variance since I was playing mainly in 3 bet pots with big hands I was willing to felt with.

[/ QUOTE ]

so the cliff notes are, if you play really tight, you end up playing a lot of bigger pots therefore there is higher variance.

but you kinda ignored the fact your edge in these hands is probably much greater (in an equity sense). So this isn't necessarily true.

It's also obvious that you'll have to have bigger average pots when you play less hands.

[MicroDonk666]

[/ QUOTE ].. ... ... but there is no doubt that spending too much time here on these forums might give you an impression that pokerplayers are better than they in fact are.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT after years of reading 2+2 and not having a whole heap of time to play poker i assume the level of play even at microstakes to be much better. Now I'm playing more i realize most ppl are dumb. really dumb (at micros)

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
one thing I noticed with this style is it seems like it would be higher variance. My normal style is 23/17, and much of my profit comes from winning lots of small pots. Raising atc in LP and taking it down with a cbet, calling in pozz and steal the pot post flop, stealing blinds, etc. So I'm playing smaller hands in smaller pots and getting away when the pot gets bigger than my hand. With this style, I was running at about 14/11, and entering pots with only big hands. So most of the pots I played in I had a big hand and was usually betting 2 or 3 streets with it, and playing for stacks quite a bit. Just seemed a bit higher variance since I was playing mainly in 3 bet pots with big hands I was willing to felt with.

[/ QUOTE ]

so the cliff notes are, if you play really tight, you end up playing a lot of bigger pots therefore there is higher variance.

but you kinda ignored the fact your edge in these hands is probably much greater (in an equity sense). So this isn't necessarily true.

It's also obvious that you'll have to have bigger average pots when you play less hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

for a good discussion on this topic see this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=9641381&amp;page=0&amp;fpart=all &amp;vc=1).

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
Gelford,

This wasn't directed at you (at all).

[/ QUOTE ]


I didn't think it was, I just couldn't quite tell what you meant, so I and posted an answer in case, you disagreed /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[finalboarder]

It's so hard to play this style after playing what would be considered a TAG style. No matter how tight I think I am playing I look at my stats after an hour and I've moved down from 20/18 to a 19/16 o.O

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
It's so hard to play this style after playing what would be considered a TAG style. No matter how tight I think I am playing I look at my stats after an hour and I've moved down from 20/18 to a 19/16 o.O

[/ QUOTE ]

Well ... Your normal style might be better than this .... I am in no way claiming that this is good poker, but ...


... If you can't play like this for an hour, then the question is how good a player are you. Seems like you are just playing locked in some sort of 'style' /images/graemlins/smile.gif

There have been some players doing this successfully for a long time at 50NL.

Gran Master



http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2070/pistm5.jpg

[monkii]

tight is right, no? november so far
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/36/novxc3.png (http://imageshack.us)

[munkey]

This is an interesting post - well its pure GFeldonness so what do I expect /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

As I see it you're playing pure top value hands -next one would add TP SC type hands and hands with flopping value/stealing till one gets to extreme of J2s type suited stealing junk.

- I play prety tight anyways and as an experiment some one should try this and add hands and see if I can get to 9/7 12/10 -&gt;&gt; 16/12 then 17/14 +, 19/15 then 27/17.

[corsakh]

I have mistaken this thread for microbrew /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[munkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Stacking of with A/images/graemlins/heart.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif on

J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif

vs a 60/10/1 is all right I guess?

[/ QUOTE ]

? oesd + nfd seems ok to me but why here - did i do/not do that sometime?

[Gelford]

He mistook this thread for the brew (and beat me to this comment with his edit /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

[Gelford]

.. but thx for the kind words Munkey (and yeah, you're spot on with your stealing ranges)

[HighOctane]

I play 10NL and the tables are very loose preflop and aggro post flop. Typically, your bet on flop with TPTK/TPGK or overpair (you were agrgressor preflop) will get raised on flop if villian hits TP (even middle pair) because 1) they overvalue their hands and 2) they don't believe you and so they think they are value betting and 3) they bluff too much. The villian's behavior is +EV against good opponents that can lay down good hands. It makes it hard ot play against players who are playing correctly for the wrong reasons. Even c-betting seems to be -EV against these guys when you miss. But the ubernit strategy is really effective against them because their preflop calling standards are super wide. In essence, at 10NL, villians create huge pots withought much thought and call preflop raises with anything. It makes it harder to hand read. Playing for stacks is much more common than at the higher limits (I think...I don't play the higher limits). So the ubernit strategy works because you need a hand against people who are looking for any opportunity to call, chase, and go to the felt. Here is my question:

1) Is there any place in the ubernit strategy for limping suited connectors, suited aces or small pairs after limpers(instead of raising small pairs).

2) Why not cold-call with small-mid PP if you are th first caller since you can get peoples stack more than in the higher limits (I am assuming 10:1 implied odds or so would be +EV since 7.5:1 isn't because villian won't always go to the felt)?

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]

1) Is there any place in the ubernit strategy for limping suited connectors, suited aces or small pairs after limpers(instead of raising small pairs).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are at a passive table where people tend to limp pf, and you are sure that the implied odds actually exist for you, then sure, limp it all .. but make sure you have implied odds (that is with the Axs' and SCs, small pairs you can always overlimp)

[ QUOTE ]

2) Why not cold-call with small-mid PP if you are th first caller since you can get peoples stack more than in the higher limits (I am assuming 10:1 implied odds or so would be +EV since 7.5:1 isn't because villian won't always go to the felt)?

[/ QUOTE ]


Again, that is judgment on your part ... it has been discussed to death in SSNL and everybody agrees that implied odds do not exist usually, but if you believe that they do at a particular table, then go ahead. ... As a generel rule, it is nothing I'd advice tho

[_dave_]

Ubernit rules... great fun /images/graemlins/smile.gif

TYTY Gelford.