Is this the right way to play, or should I have just called the flop?

[iheartponeez]

Villain seems solid.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
4 players
Converted at weaktight.com (http://weaktight.com/)

Stacks:
CO (<font color="#0000cc">$47.65</font>)
BTN (<font color="#0000cc">$40.50</font>)
SB (<font color="#0000cc">$34.85</font>)
Hero (<font color="#0000cc">$25.80</font>)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 4 players) Hero is BB 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif
<font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $1</font>, <font color="#777777">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $0.75

Flop: 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($2.1, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets $1.25</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $5.25</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO goes all-in $46.65</font>, <font color="#777777">Hero folds</font>

[iheartponeez]

Bumples

[thac]

Solid meaning what? Tight? I wouldn't c/r and fold, if I was c/ring this board it's with the intention of calling. If not you can c/c and see what he does on the turn, but turning your hand into a bluff here is kinda bad.

[creamfillin]

3-bet PF. As played just call the flop. Maybe lead a good turn.

[Cody1982]

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

UTG+2: $17.50
MP1: $7.15
MP2: $27.15
CO: $15
BTN: $4.50
SB: $40
BB: $14.75
UTG: $16.70
Cody1982 (UTG+1): $17.40

CO posts $0.25
Pre-Flop: 5 5 dealt to Cody1982 (UTG+1)
UTG folds, Cody1982 calls $0.25, UTG+2 calls $0.25, MP1 folds, MP2 raises to $1.25, CO folds, BTN calls $1.25, 2 folds, Cody1982 calls $1, UTG+2 folds

Flop: ($4.60) Q 9 5 (3 Players)
Cody1982 checks, MP2 bets $3, BTN folds, Cody1982 raises to $7, MP2 folds

Results: $10.60 Pot ($0.50 Rake)
Cody1982 mucked 5 5 and WON $10.10 (+$5.85 NET)

[Cody1982]

Sorry didnt mean to post that

[eastern motors]

I think I would start by 3-betting PF. Try to avoid playing OOP by just taking it down PF or at least narrowing his range.

As played, I would fold. Big overshoves at this level are usually the nuts.

[traz]

meh this is probably ok, depending on the opponent. Just because you raise doesn't mean you have to stack off. You think your hand is good UNTIL he tells you otherwise, it's not the same as turning your hand into a bluff.

[Waingro]

I don´t think cr/fold is optimal. Not only do you have decent showdown value, you have 25% equity vs AA. All that just went out the window. I would just call unless I am prepared to call a push.

[z28dreams]

I usually 3bet this preflop.

I also usually call the flop, but a raise is probably ok.

[iheartponeez]

[ QUOTE ]
I don´t think cr/fold is optimal. Not only do you have decent showdown value, you have 25% equity vs AA. All that just went out the window. I would just call unless I am prepared to call a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking in raising these hands is that a lot of the deck is a scare card, so I want to end the hand now. If he wants to call and we keep seeing rags, I'm gonna keep firing, but do you think it's good to protect against overs, or is that too iffy to raise on?

[z28dreams]

bah i missed that you c/r - but ya basically you have to always think "if villain shoves, am I willing to call?"

If the answer is no, then don't raise / check-raise.

[traz]

[ QUOTE ]
bah i missed that you c/r - but ya basically you have to always think "if villain shoves, am I willing to call?"

If the answer is no, then don't raise / check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is a rule that should be followed 100%

[z28dreams]

traz- ya I agree. Could you elaborate a bit more on it, maybe with some examples?

I've been running a lot of hands similar to OP's here by people and often feel lost as well.

[iheartponeez]

[ QUOTE ]
bah i missed that you c/r - but ya basically you have to always think "if villain shoves, am I willing to call?"

If the answer is no, then don't raise / check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't think that is true at all. I've check-raised plenty of times, right here it was for info. I've paid out, what, 5? If we just played bet-call the whole way I'd be paying out way more, and if he's ahead, he's likely to stay that way.

Maybe the c-r was a bad plan but I don't buy the reasoning that I have to call a shove.

[z28dreams]

The thing is though - why do you want to turn 99 into a bluff?

You have an overpair + gutshot draw.

On a board like 765, I think you'll pretty much be way ahead/way behind any villain that's willing to call a raise. (tons of 2 pair options, and every other overpair has you crushed)

[Waingro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
bah i missed that you c/r - but ya basically you have to always think "if villain shoves, am I willing to call?"

If the answer is no, then don't raise / check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is a rule that should be followed 100%

[/ QUOTE ]
If you cr a cb on a very wet flop it is probably a good thing to think about.

[iheartponeez]

[ QUOTE ]
The thing is though - why do you want to turn 99 into a bluff?

You have an overpair + gutshot draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't bluffing. I was pretty confident I had the best hand. Now he's told me I don't. My overpair is liable to become an underpair on the next two cards very easily. My check-raise is a statement, "I don't believe your c-bet on this ragged board. I have a hand here." If I check behind, I have to play the whole hand defensively in the likely case that a 10+ falls.

Do you recommend I just call down and ignore overs, and call it a bad beat if he hits?

[z28dreams]

You don't raise just because you have the best hand though - you should be making a raise if:

(1) you can get a worse hand to fold
(2) for value against a hand that will call

Which is it in this case? Are we really trying to extract value out of A7?

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The thing is though - why do you want to turn 99 into a bluff?

You have an overpair + gutshot draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't bluffing. I was pretty confident I had the best hand. Now he's told me I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

What worse hands did you expect him to flat your cr with?

[Profish2285]

I think the c/r is more than just trying to get value, but also to help define hands. What are we doing if we flat call here and an over hits? If we are going to c/c again, then what do we do on the river? I would rather c/r the flop than have to c/c to the river having no idea where Im at.

[thac]

You still risk the same amount and you're not even going to showdown when you cr/fold the flop.

[iheartponeez]

[ QUOTE ]
You still risk the same amount and you're not even going to showdown when you cr/fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's more expensive going to showdown.

1.25 on the flop, then it's a 4.6 pot
2.50 on the turn, then it's a 9.6 pot
4.50 on the river.

And those are bets of about 1/2 pot each time, pretty low. It's still over 3 dollars more that way.

[Profish2285]

How do you figure you risk the same amount? Villain is only going to be betting a total of 4 dollars more from now til showdown?

[thac]

This is assuming that he bets all 3 streets. I really don't think he's gonna try to get value on all three streets with a bunch of his hands. I think c/c flop, c/c turn, c/f river is a great line here.

[creamfillin]

Check/call; lead turn. If he has a piece of that board he's likely to just call the turn lead, and he probably isn't raising us with an overpair after we donk the turn because he'll think we have a monster. This lets us get a look at 6 outs on the river if we don't have the best hand already and if he had a piece of the board then hell likely check behind and let us show down.

This is why I 3-bet because it makes everything so much easier.

[z28dreams]

[ QUOTE ]


(1) you can get a better hand to fold
(2) for value against a hand that will call


[/ QUOTE ]

typo obv /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[z28dreams]

[ QUOTE ]
Check/call; lead turn. If he has a piece of that board he's likely to just call the turn lead, and he probably isn't raising us with an overpair after we donk the turn because he'll think we have a monster. This lets us get a look at 6 outs on the river if we don't have the best hand already and if he had a piece of the board then hell likely check behind and let us show down.

This is why I 3-bet because it makes everything so much easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

This actually sounds like a decent line - I normally take Thac's line (check/call down or fold to large bets).

I think the turn lead is sort of equivalent to a c/r, but it's a little nicer because if they are drawing with an 8 or a 4 it makes it much harder for them to call now.

[bknollenberg]

i agree with 3 betting preflop. on the flop i think it's safe to say his range is overpair, set or possibly 2 pair / made straight. most of the time this is probably JJ+ or a set. if you 3 bet preflop you're probably getting him off of 55-77, and if he has JJ+ he's probably 4 betting you and you can dump it (ok, maybe he'll only 4 bet QQ+, but same difference). as played, i'd probably take thac's line since your hand has good showdown value and you've got 6 outs that'll (more or less) give you the nuts. i don't really like leading the turn because then you're missing out on seeing the river / showdown if he raises and you've put too much money in to miss out on that. the only hand that i can possibly see you beating on this flop is 88, and i do have notes on some villains that will take this line with overpair / open ended in a spot like this, but it'd take a lot of history with a guy for me to be able to make this call, effectively putting him on one hand.

[Unknown Soldier]

[ QUOTE ]

This is why I 3-bet because it makes everything so much easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Unknown Soldier]

flop raise is too thin, just call

[iheartponeez]

In what way does 3-betting make this easier? If I'm called I know I'm beat?

[bsball8806]

Why does everyone hate the flop c/r? I think it's a good way to trap CO into c-betting with something like AK, AQ, AJ, etc. Once he overshoves on top, it's pretty safe to assume he has QQ+, maybe AKc.

p.s I 3bet preflop too, especially when this is CO raising

[MEC2210]

yeah, I agree with him. I just started playing NL full time (have played against you, poneez) and after an initial ass-kicking I'm moving up quickly. I agree with the CR... like you said earlier, it's costing you $5 dollars to learn that you're beat, as opposed to what would probably end up being 2 more pot-sized bets, supposing you CC. It's a scary board and is only going to get worse for you. The CR here is your only solid chance to win the pot.

[iheartponeez]

Can anyone explain to me why 3-betting preflop was the right move? He calls and then...? I donk into him? I check and have to call a much larger bet? I don't really understand.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
Can anyone explain to me why 3-betting preflop was the right move? He calls and then...? I donk into him? I check and have to call a much larger bet? I don't really understand.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think 3betting here is dependent on his stats, which I didn't see anywhere in here.....?


Anyway this is a pretty tricky spot, but I don't really have much to add. I probably would have gone with the already mentioned check/call down line but really only planning to call 2 streets and fold if he ends up betting all 3.


The check/ call flop lead turn idea, however, sounds pretty intriguing.

[Shattered]

Why does everyone hate check/calling so much? I'm beginning to think a lot of the advice on this board is too aggro. You're almost certainly not calling another PSB on the turn and river unimproved, so saying that "a check-raise lets you know where you are cheaper" is simply wrong. Since villain is solid you can fold to a double barrel on the turn for much less. Even if you do call a full PSB on the turn you've paid exactly the same amount as you have with your check-raise, except now you're on the river without having bloated the pot with a marginal hand OoP and can reevaluate the river.

Basically, the check-raise is really bad. A flop check-raise allows villain to play perfectly except when he holds 88, or maybe A8 and A7. Furthermore, you have to fold to the flop 4-bet (his range crushes yours), which he can (and should) do with a lot of hands. The only reason to do so is to define your hand and prevent you from making a larger mistake later in the hand, but against a straightforward player you're not going to make any mistakes that makes it worth doing.

[Shattered]

Also, could someone elaborate on what sort of turn you would lead on after c/c-ing flop? I'm thinking I would donk an A or K for about half pot as a bluff, but what would you do with a blank or, say, an 8?

[traz]

check-raising isn't terrible imo, but it's probably not optimal. Check-calling is good, but then you have to make tough decisions on the turn...if you're a good player and know your opponent, you can donk the turn or cc another bet or cf if you know you're beat...or what have you.

But if you're opponent is good, he's going to be double barreling alot, because there are sooo many scare cards that can come. So it actually is closer than people are making it...yes you might be ahead, and yes cring might let villains play perfect or shove on you, but if you cc against some opponents you might end up just spewing money on the turn.

I see no reason to 3bet preflop and I think it's just a way for poor players to avoid tough but much more profitable situations. CRing the flop is a similar idea, but less of an error (imo).

[MEC2210]

I still think CR'ing is better than check calling. there's no way that flop improves for you, and if he's decent, you're check-calling to the river....in which case, most likely, you'll be beat. I too see no reason to 3bet PF. I think that was said a bunch because there really isn't any good way to play this hand here. It's a crap situation any way you slice it, and 3betting is being thrown out there as a hindight-is-20/20 piece of advice...this is just a crappy hand.

and yeah, re: 3betting, i'd much rather do it with 5's, 6's, 7's...at least that way you know you're getting paid off when your set (and overcards) arrive, and it gives you the opportunity to win some small ones with hands that usually don't win you any. 9's aren't that good of a hand to 3bet most of the time...on a board with a bunch of small cards it leaves you in a situation where you have no idea of where you are...any one of those 5 overcards hit and you're up the river.

[cooker3]

As a general rule check raising and folding to a push is usually pretty bad. The case where it would be fine is if you beat a big part of his range and you know he will call a lot with that range but will only shove hands that crush you or you are out and out bluffing but this hand is not 1 of those situations.

C/R just bloats the flop with a very marginal hand. For the people who scared of draws etc, don't be. If a draw hits then so what, you should be far more worried about protecting your stack rather then protecting against a draw.
I liked the c/c flop and turn line because people rarely fire of 3 barrels here when they are behind 99.