View Full Version : NL50: b/f or c/c or c/f river?
Mr_Pathetic
11-11-2007, 03:02 PM
this hand was against a pretty big fish. i could see him playing AK,AJ,A9,AQ,99 like this. So with that said do you push river as pot is large already or do you c/c or do you c/f? all we have is a $30 left behind and all he can call us with is $25 so less then a half pot bet left on river. i don't think he can put me on a K here as my line suggests a big hand so far but i am not sure what he can call me with that i beat if i do bet out. OTOH he is a big fish. fact that all we got is $25 on river makes this even worse. I guess I am doomed to get it in?
Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker (http://www.leggopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.leggopoker.com/hh)
SB: $42.75
BB: $13.25
UTG: $61.95
Hero (MP): $56.50
CO: $51.45
BTN: $115.40
Pre-Flop: Jhttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif Jhttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif dealt to Hero (MP)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $4</font>, 3 folds, Hero calls $2
Flop: ($8.75) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif Ahttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 9http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $6.25</font>, CO calls $6.25
Turn: ($21.25) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $16</font>, CO calls $16
River: ($53.25) Thttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="green">Hero just vomited green goo.</font>
john_bcfc
11-11-2007, 03:15 PM
Wow thats such a sick hand. I wouldn't be surprised to see KK or AK here, but like you said you're ahead of a few of his hands, AJ AQ A10 99. But are these really going to bet river?? I would check fold on river depending on bet size, unless he's giving like 5-1.
I would check raise flop and shove turn tbh.
Quester
11-11-2007, 03:16 PM
Bet/fold isn't an option because you only have 1/2 pot left behind. If you bet and are raised AI, you can't fold. You also don't have any fold equity, as only better hands will call. We don't have much value either.
Check/fold isn't that great either because you're getting 3:1, and he may hold AJ/AQ/AT, or similar. You lose to any 8, but we should discount these because he 3-bet you preflop. You also lose to any K, which we can't discount. However, you only need to be good here 25% of the time so folding is likely incorrect.
check/call gets us to showdown, and we will extract value from his bluffing hands (all non-K hands at this point), but lose value from his winning hands. Still, odds are good enough here to call I think.
I believe check/call is your best option. My finger is on the reload button while I'm calling, though.
bsball8806
11-11-2007, 03:19 PM
I feel your pain...
This is one of those incredibly difficult situations, because you KNOW if you check to him, he's going to bet at it no matter if he has a K, AJ, 99, or whatever.
Do you have any stats on his flop aggression? Given the fact that he min raised you preflop, and called you down every street, the only king I really can see him having is AK. If you see him as generally agressive on the flop, I would not put him on AK, therefore effectively eliminating the chances he has a K (obviously not factoring in donk plays with KK, KQ, KJ, or K10).
I *think* we're good here, but seeing as he'll probably bet if we check to him, I almost like a c/c to induce a bluff from AQ, AJ, or 99 (99 probably value bets in position)
bsball8806
11-11-2007, 03:21 PM
oh and if he had an 8, reload as fast as you can before he can leave the table
Mr_Pathetic
11-11-2007, 03:29 PM
flop aggression of 3.5. overall aggression of 2.88 so he is aggressive overall. my stats at the table were probably like 25/20/4 or something. he was more like 41/15/2.8
bsball8806
11-11-2007, 03:31 PM
You know what weird thought just occurred to me, is if HE was trying to slowplay like AA on the flop/turn, or had QQ and turned a higher set. I wonder if HE'D have the stones to lay that down.
But given his aggression, yes, I think AK definetely repops this flop, especially given his minraise preflop. So I guess this is a call.
Mr_Pathetic
11-11-2007, 03:39 PM
i agree calling probably best but of course I didn't c/c I put him all in cause I figured money going in anyway and no way he can put me on a K way I played the hand but by doing so I took away his option to make a bad play and forced him into playing more correctly. really got to work on that in spots where stacks are small in relation to pot. i keep going "oh well if i check money going in anyway so i'll just bet it" which is really really really dumb.
he of course called with AK and muttered in chat about how he sucks.
I bet flop thinking he would raise me wiht any ace since i had been pushing them around. so my flop bet was with intent to b3b all in. of course that did not work lol.
oh well lesson learned here is dont push river in spots like this but allow your opponent to make a mistake.
i think im betting like 15ish and calling a shove and being sad if he has AA or QQ or a terribly played AK
yegon
11-11-2007, 03:45 PM
did you donk the flop to bet/3bet ai?
I think he can have hands that you beat as well as hands that beat you so c/c is the way to go imo. You do not fold weaker hands and you can occasionally get them to bluff at you.
Folding is out of the question even if he goes allin on the river. He can value bet 2 pair hands or even worse - he is a fish.
EDIT: oh you were quicker and answered all my questions before i posted them. awesome /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Daniel LeClaire
11-11-2007, 06:37 PM
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I bet flop thinking he would raise me wiht any ace since i had been pushing them around. so my flop bet was with intent to b3b all in. of course that did not work lol.
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I don't think leading, hoping to get raised, works as much at these levels because the players aren't aggressive enough. I also feel that a weaker lead, say 1/2 pot, is more likely to get raised than a 3/4 pot bet. When players are unsure they usually just call down.
Hail Eris
11-11-2007, 06:57 PM
You have 1/2 pot left on the river against a fish who'll call with 2 pair. Shoving is fine and standard.
Unknown Soldier
11-11-2007, 07:40 PM
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You have 1/2 pot left on the river against a fish who'll call with 2 pair. Shoving is fine and standard.
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bozzer
11-11-2007, 08:17 PM
well you haven't given us much of a read, but i'm not folding. shove or c/c are both fine imo depending on how aggressive you think he is.
Mr_Pathetic
11-11-2007, 08:20 PM
yeah i suck at typing out all the contextual clues but i am getting better at it.
edit: i guess the biggest clue i left out is he is not likely to view me as someone who folds due to some prior hands leading into this one. he was one to pay attention as he commented on my play in a hand about 5 before this telling me how i suck for not folding my overpair. and he was right about that one too so i had the stack off ez image going i guess you could say.
cc is really bad, this is either shove or cf, leaning towards shove for sure.
I never donk that flop though
Unknown Soldier
11-11-2007, 10:07 PM
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well you haven't given us much of a read, but i'm not folding. shove or c/c are both fine imo depending on how aggressive you think he is.
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shove > c/c. not close.
Mr_Pathetic
11-11-2007, 10:12 PM
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well you haven't given us much of a read, but i'm not folding. shove or c/c are both fine imo depending on how aggressive you think he is.
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shove > c/c. not close.
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guess i did get the river right at least. flop c/r is going to be better but at the time i thought donking flop would get him to raise me which would make him more inclined to call when i raised back. i had been betting a lot of flops, probably almost all of them.
bozzer
11-12-2007, 04:59 AM
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well you haven't given us much of a read, but i'm not folding. shove or c/c are both fine imo depending on how aggressive you think he is.
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shove > c/c. not close.
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you know it would really help if you gave some reasoning occasionally. i would shove given the info in the OP because he's likely to call but check a lot of hands, but i could certainly imagine some villains against whom a c/c would be optimal (those who think you have a king if you shove and fold their worse hands while betting a wide range if you check).
whyzze
11-12-2007, 05:28 AM
shooooooove
as for c/c...i doubt he shoves a worse hand here ever.
its shove or c/f...
kroeliewoelie
11-12-2007, 05:58 AM
Am I the only one who bets pot on this flop? I think he has toppair or some draw at least on this flop. And if he's a fish he will call anyway. I try to get more money in the pot early on.
ama0330
11-12-2007, 06:47 AM
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well you haven't given us much of a read, but i'm not folding. shove or c/c are both fine imo depending on how aggressive you think he is.
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shove > c/c. not close.
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you know it would really help if you gave some reasoning occasionally. i would shove given the info in the OP because he's likely to call but check a lot of hands, but i could certainly imagine some villains against whom a c/c would be optimal (those who think you have a king if you shove and fold their worse hands while betting a wide range if you check).
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Yes, basically you shove because you dont want him to check behind two pair, and if you checked and he put you all in, you would call. So shoving actually gives him the chance to make the mistake, not checking which allows him to play perfectly.
Unknown Soldier
11-12-2007, 07:37 AM
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well you haven't given us much of a read, but i'm not folding. shove or c/c are both fine imo depending on how aggressive you think he is.
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shove > c/c. not close.
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you know it would really help if you gave some reasoning occasionally. i would shove given the info in the OP because he's likely to call but check a lot of hands, but i could certainly imagine some villains against whom a c/c would be optimal (those who think you have a king if you shove and fold their worse hands while betting a wide range if you check).
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i think his calling range is much bigger then his betting range (ie he'll call 2pr, but not bet it for ex.), and you beat his calling range because he's a bad player. Don't think there's much more i can say really.
bozzer
11-12-2007, 07:45 AM
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well you haven't given us much of a read, but i'm not folding. shove or c/c are both fine imo depending on how aggressive you think he is.
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shove > c/c. not close.
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you know it would really help if you gave some reasoning occasionally. i would shove given the info in the OP because he's likely to call but check a lot of hands, but i could certainly imagine some villains against whom a c/c would be optimal (those who think you have a king if you shove and fold their worse hands while betting a wide range if you check).
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Yes, basically you shove because you dont want him to check behind two pair, and if you checked and he put you all in, you would call. So shoving actually gives him the chance to make the mistake, not checking which allows him to play perfectly.
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yeh checking offers a -ve freeroll vs most players i agree. i shouldn't have made shove sound equivalent to cc in my post. against some players cc is much better than cf though.
CC makes no sense because no player is betting this river unless:
a) he has you beat
b) he is willing to call your bet anyways
Any hand that beats you will bet the river, but just about every hand your ahead of will check behind. This is true almost always, and if not, the guy would have called your bet anyways so it is effectively true. Betting is the only way to get value out of worse hands.
Lego05
11-12-2007, 08:36 AM
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CC makes no sense because no player is betting this river unless:
a) he has you beat
b) he is willing to call your bet anyways
Any hand that beats you will bet the river, but just about every hand your ahead of will check behind. This is true almost always, and if not, the guy would have called your bet anyways so it is effectively true. Betting is the only way to get value out of worse hands.
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Agree exactly. Check calling sucks cause he's pretty much only betting straights or higher sets.
However, if you push yea he's calling with straights and higher sets, but he is also likely calling with some 2 pairs and lower sets (2 pair being a more likely holding).
NL Newbie
11-12-2007, 08:38 AM
Checking is horrible and makes him check behind weak hands, bet Kx.
Thats fine, he has AJ/AQ/AX/Other 2pair here and you need to get value.
Unfortunatly we can't bet fold due to pot size - Unless you can bet $10 and fold to a shove but you'd have to be sure he won't bluff raise your bet or w/e.
$10 would make 2 pair happy to call, KX to shove. I think he wouldn't bluff you very often since you're commited almost - However it looks weak so you'd need to be sure he wouldnt.
AZplaya
11-12-2007, 12:42 PM
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So shoving actually gives him the chance to make the mistake, not checking which allows him to play perfectly.
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this is really all that needs to be said here. As far as the flop, if we pot 3 streets we get his stack, so why mess around with check raising?
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