The Engineer is yellow...

[1p0kerboy]

and I don't mean a coward.

[oldbookguy]

Man, that is hard on the eyes of this old man, how about something less bright?

Nice compromise guys, I like the PPA Board Member designation, hope this solve the delimma?!

obg

[LesJ]

Post deleted by LesJ

[1p0kerboy]

Is it wrong that I now aspire to be a PPA board member for the sole purpose of having a yellow nametag on 2+2?

[Uglyowl]

Glad something was worked out, that seems fair enough (although I can barely see the yellow, I'm getting old as well)

[LesJ]

I am not 100% certain that the "yellowing" of TE was a compromise move. I am 100%, however, that he has been banned for 24 hours. If this was some sort of a compromise move, it was a poorly conceived one at best.

Pretty ridiculous, imho.

Les

[1p0kerboy]

[ QUOTE ]
I am 100%, however, that he has been banned for 24 hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would he be banned for?

He'll probably never come back here again anyways. I know I wouldn't.

[crashjr]

No good deed goes unpunished. . . .

[LesJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am 100%, however, that he has been banned for 24 hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would he be banned for?



[/ QUOTE ]

"Refusing to comply with request to identify himself as PPA board member"

[tangled]

at least we all know who the king of this forum is. that's the important thing right? /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Uglyowl]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am 100%, however, that he has been banned for 24 hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would he be banned for?



[/ QUOTE ]



"Refusing to comply with request to identify himself as PPA board member"

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like going outside and setting my 5 twoplustwo books on fire. You have to be joking. Mason if you want to drive traffic to other sites then so be it. Unfortunately the time it takes to reorganize and what not, you have done alot of damage already I'm afraid. I feel like this is dealing with my 3 year old and sending him to timeout.

[Uglyowl]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am 100%, however, that he has been banned for 24 hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would he be banned for?

He'll probably never come back here again anyways. I know I wouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I may not either. Rich has done alot for the poker community (especially before he had anything to do with the PPA) and gets a 24 hour ban due to a [censored] contest.

[JPFisher55]

I don't agree with the ban. But I do understand Mason's position on this matter. I realize that TE's posts are not official statements, thoughts or ideas of the PPA. Frankly, it seems that TE and others are usually ahead of the PPA on ideas on most matters affecting online poker.
However, Mason wants to be certain that all readers and posters of this forum know TE's position, situation and potential point of view so that everyone can decide on such issues for themselves. I don't see the harm in TE comlying with the request and IMO he should have been given more time, the rest of today, to comply.

[VP$IP]

The Kahnawake Gaming Commission (KGC) announced today an audit into the current and historic activities of this entire matter.

[1p0kerboy]

[ QUOTE ]
However, Mason wants to be certain that all readers and posters of this forum know TE's position, situation and potential point of view so that everyone can decide on such issues for themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why doesn't everybody who ever makes a post have to identify which organizations and companies they are affiliated with?

Shouldn't we all be able to make posts without everybody else knowing who we are in real life?

This is absolutely rediculous and I don't understand it one bit.

[1p0kerboy]

What if TE never made it public knowledge that he was on the PPA board? Doesn't he have that right?

Does that mean that every poster on 2+2 must now disclose who they are so that 2+2 can make sure nobody else is on the PPA board and making posts here?

It just makes no sense.

[1p0kerboy]

I hope the Engineer just avoids this place like the plague and I hope the PPA stops posting here.

2+2 is stunting the growth of the fight for online poker.

We have enough to deal with as far as getting legislation passed, etc, etc, that we don't really need to constantly fight the battle against 2+2 at the same time.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not 100% certain that the "yellowing" of TE was a compromise move. I am 100%, however, that he has been banned for 24 hours. If this was some sort of a compromise move, it was a poorly conceived one at best.

Pretty ridiculous, imho.

Les

[/ QUOTE ]

Rat Spit!

Nice job "gentlemen"!


D$D

[NewGuy]

[ QUOTE ]

However, Mason wants to be certain that all readers and posters of this forum know TE's position, situation and potential point of view so that everyone can decide on such issues for themselves. I don't see the harm in TE comlying with the request and IMO he should have been given more time, the rest of today, to comply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think 2+2 readers are on average intelligent enough to read a title that says "PPA Board Member"? How exactly does this fail to accommodate full disclosure?

I'm still hopeful 2+2 will come to its senses and logic will prevail here.

[ShaneP]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with the ban. But I do understand Mason's position on this matter. I realize that TE's posts are not official statements, thoughts or ideas of the PPA. Frankly, it seems that TE and others are usually ahead of the PPA on ideas on most matters affecting online poker.
However, Mason wants to be certain that all readers and posters of this forum know TE's position, situation and potential point of view so that everyone can decide on such issues for themselves. I don't see the harm in TE complying with the request and IMO he should have been given more time, the rest of today, to comply.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand Mason's position on this. In the past, whenever someone has asked 2+2 for questions to give to person X (PPA, congresscritter, other random person), Mason would jump down their throat immediately to make sure that the person at least made it absolutely clear that they weren't representing 2+2 in any official capacity. That position I totally understand, even if I think he was a bit overzealous in a couple of cases. That is, I think he should have said what he did, just in a gentler manner. Being absolutely clear on who is representing what is an extremely good idea.

Now here, it seems like he's making anything TE says be defacto associated with the PPA. It just seems that instead of the idea of making it clearer for whom is being spoken (as Mason has been zealous in doing), he's making things more confused here. Obviously TE now needs to be careful in making sure that what he says is interpreted correctly--either it comes from him as a private person, or as a representative of the PPA. Given his past posting here, I'd say that an undertitle is appropriate, and if there's anything he says that's official PPA stuff, then he should identify it as such (which I'm sure is what he'd have done).

Shane

[Uglyowl]

It's really a shame this has become such a big issue /images/graemlins/confused.gif This is not what is needed right now.

[LesJ]

The Engineer and the work he has done should stand out as a great testament to the great minds and talent that frequent these forums. I would think 2+2 as a whole (and the "leaders" here - up to and including Mason) would be proud of the impact TE has made in these legislative battles. The whole situation is ridiculous and leads me to question Mason's priorities.

Les

[Coy_Roy]

[ QUOTE ]
The Engineer and the work he has done should stand out as a great testament to the great minds and talent that frequent these forums. I would think 2+2 as a whole (and the "leaders" here - up to and including Mason) would be proud of the impact TE has made in these legislative battles. The whole situation is ridiculous and leads me to question Mason's priorities.

Les

[/ QUOTE ]

[1p0kerboy]

[ QUOTE ]
The whole situation is ridiculous and leads me to question Mason's priorities.


[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

[BluffTHIS!]

I've been absent for a while but I'm back, and would like to comment on this situation. Mason's position and the thoughts of various posters were detailed in the other thread, but let's summarize the situation. Mason has a neutral at best position on the PPA and won't change to positive unless issues dealing with the conflicted interests on the board, and with transparency, are first addressed in a satisfactory manner. BUT in the meantime, he is perfectly willing to let the PPA be discussed, and for official reps of same to post here as well, with no censorship of their views even when they differ from Mason's. All he has required is that those official reps like Mr. Pappas and Bryan be so identified, and that board members of the PPA be as well. That's not really a lot to ask for unlimited and uncensored access to these forums, which brings together the largest body of poker players on the net.

And again, all the Engineer has to do to address his own concerns is simply add to the PPA board member note that he is speaking his own views and not acting in that instance as an official spokesman.

"PPA board member speaking his own private viewpoints and not necessarily those of the PPA" - or someting similar.

It might be tedious, but the Engineer could simply cut & paste a standard such ending or even use an AHK script. Super easy.

I hope the Engineer doesn't get hung up on this and even if he disagrees with the demand, views it as worth complying with in order to help continue advance the work of the PPA as he has so ably done in this forum.



Now I have something to say to the rest of you professing outrage. You are the ones who by your refusal to take seriously important problems with the PPA (which admittedly are getting better though after two years of misteps and failure) who are hurting the cause we have. Instead of working to try to get two or so board members to resign (*without* first voting on their replacements), and then the newly constituted board to deal with the transparency issue, you make every excuse and sweep every criticism under the rug.

Sure you might say you understand, but how does that understanding translate into action? Have even one of you emailed Ms. Schulman asking her to resign and take one other affiliate farm interest board member with her? Or have you emailed Greg Fossilman Raymer to ask him to broker such resignations for the good of the PPA? Instead of always criticizing Mason or those other of us who have expressed concerns in the past about the PPA, why can't YOU try to do something to address these concerns instead of just demanding everyone ignore same and kowtow to the PPA *in its current state*?

And here's the main issue in all this. Either this forum and 2p2 in general (and Mason's positive endorsement) is very important to the success of the PPA or it's not. If not, then why waste words arguing against Mason's actions and the viewpoints of some of us who share his concerns? Just move on.

BUT if 2p2 is important, as I believe it is, because it has the ability like no other place on the net or in the B&M world to bring together the largest mass of poker players who can be induced to act in concert for our cause by the great efforts of posters like TheEngineer, then I would submit that you should spend as much effort seeking to remove the concerns some of us have, as you do in criticizing us. That means as I said above contacting relevant board members and asking them to resign for the good of the PPA. And it means taking seriously the board and transparency issues, which you *should* given headsup Berge gave us to the Politico article which shows our foes are trying to capitalize in typical political fashion on *any* perceived negative to deflect attention away from our arguments which they can't rebut.

Even if you think that Mason and others like myself are totally wrong, motivated in part by personal animus or whatever, the bottom line *if 2p2 is important to the PPA's success* is that you need to work on addressing those long term criticisms so that we have an internal unity, and a lack of conflicted or tainted interests that can be used against our cause by our foes.

[NewGuy]

Cliff Notes:

PPA has some problems
Mason wants TE to identify that he is affiliated with PPA
No one offers any logical reasons why a custom title is insufficient (including Mason and BluffThis)

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope the Engineer doesn't get hung up on this and even if he disagrees with the demand, views it as worth complying with in order to help continue advance the work of the PPA as he has so ably done in this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.



[ QUOTE ]
Now I have something to say to the rest of you professing outrage. You are the ones who by your refusal to take seriously important problems with the PPA (which admittedly are getting better though after two years of misteps and failure) who are hurting the cause we have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who really is "we."

You seem to understand that 2+2 has the right of ownership of this forum, but the people who created the PPA do not have the same?

To a very large degree there have been and are problems and an attitude of "keeping the children" in the dark and spoon feding them platitudes.

But at some point we are all going to have to trust at some point! The forces that "control" the PPA are going to have to trust the general poker community to step up when asked. The general poker community is going to have to push the PPA for concrete meaningful actions to be followed. The PPA is also going to have to do a better job explaining and motivating the general community to action.

In the end realistically it is the "forces" that control the PPA if for neferious ends who risk the most, this includes 2+2 concerns and its motives. Because in the end the membership will "control" the PPA.

Fighting for "control" now because the PPA might be useful "controling" in the future is a loosing game. If it is really worth controling it will be uncontrolable.

This fight now is both worthless but potentially ends this game in Safe and Secure's favor.

I'm pretty sure the IGC, the PPA, 2+2 LLC, and the general poker community do not want that but that is where we are going.


D$D

[Berge20]

Welcome back Bluff. You held out longer than I'd have guessed.

As most have already seen, Engineer will receive a fine yellow colored name and he will be identified as a PPA board member in his title.

I hope this ends up being satisfactory to everyone and TE himself.

The drama bomb over the past twelve, twenty-four hours can hopefully put behind us and we can refocus on the matter at hand. Mason is welcome to comment as he wishes regarding the ban and/or the process, so we'll leave this open for the weekend in case there are any unresolved matters.

[ScoobyDooo]

mason puts me on life tilt

[JPFisher55]

I agree that TE's solution is an adequate disclosure of his relationship with the PPA. TE feels that the signature at the end of each post equates all his posts with an official position or statement of the PPA. I can understand how he does not wish to start each post with a disclaimer that the post is not an official statement of the PPA.

[va1halla]

That yellow is hard on the eyes, please change it to blue.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
I can understand how he does not wish to start each post with a disclaimer that the post is not an official statement of the PPA.

[/ QUOTE ]


Although you might understand why he wouldn't want to have such a disclaimer in each post, would you also understand why/if he refused to? That is, why giving up posting here because of dislike of the disclaimer was more important than just considering it the price of working for the cause? All he has to do is tap a preprogrammed function key to add it.

[Legislurker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hope the Engineer doesn't get hung up on this and even if he disagrees with the demand, views it as worth complying with in order to help continue advance the work of the PPA as he has so ably done in this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.



[ QUOTE ]
Now I have something to say to the rest of you professing outrage. You are the ones who by your refusal to take seriously important problems with the PPA (which admittedly are getting better though after two years of misteps and failure) who are hurting the cause we have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who really is "we."

You seem to understand that 2+2 has the right of ownership of this forum, but the people who created the PPA do not have the same?

To a very large degree there have been and are problems and an attitude of "keeping the children" in the dark and spoon feding them platitudes.

But at some point we are all going to have to trust at some point! The forces that "control" the PPA are going to have to trust the general poker community to step up when asked. The general poker community is going to have to push the PPA for concrete meaningful actions to be followed. The PPA is also going to have to do a better job explaining and motivating the general community to action.

In the end realistically it is the "forces" that control the PPA if for neferious ends who risk the most, this includes 2+2 concerns and its motives. Because in the end the membership will "control" the PPA.

Fighting for "control" now because the PPA might be useful "controling" in the future is a loosing game. If it is really worth controling it will be uncontrolable.

This fight now is both worthless but potentially ends this game in Safe and Secure's favor.

I'm pretty sure the IGC, the PPA, 2+2 LLC, and the general poker community do not want that but that is where we are going.


D$D

[/ QUOTE ]

"We" are the people who want to act in concert for poker's best interests. We're not willing to say the PPA acts for poker just because it says it does. Im not marketing it to friends or acquaintances as such either until what Bluff and Mason wants comes to pass, or is agreed to be acted on. I don't care how embarassing or industry heavy the finances are now. Come clean, show it, open it up to democratic processes. Im happy to work with it, and to give some money, but in no way will I vouch for it as representing the interests of players. The enemy of my enemby is my friend.
Neutral. However you want to say it. "We" are still waiting to make an "Us".

[JPFisher55]

I guess TE thinks that such a disclaimer would not be adequate. So I do not know. IMO either side could comply with the other side because it is not that big a deal. But I do not sit in Mason's or TE's shoes.

[mr.giggles]

dude did theenginer just pretty much quit posting on 2+2? I just read the other thread and got that impression, if he did quite IM gonna be pissed man.

[1p0kerboy]

[ QUOTE ]
That yellow is hard on the eyes, please change it to blue.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think blue is reserved for authors.

[mr.giggles]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That yellow is hard on the eyes, please change it to blue.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think blue is reserved for authors.

[/ QUOTE ]

he should get purple that would be so kool

[BluffTHIS!]

Orange is an available color and easier on the eyes than yellow.

[Skallagrim]

First of all welcome back BluffTHIS. I have missed your point of view, even when I disagree with it /images/graemlins/wink.gif .

This looks like an acceptable compromise, given the situation, so I wont make a long comment.

But as Bluff has done a better job of presenting Mason's point of view than Mason, let me take a brief stab at TE's side: TE started, here and on a few other boards, telling the plain 'ole players just what they could do to help, and specifically how they could do it. Both his assistance to, and motivation of, the "masses" were invaluable to the cause of legal poker. Eventually he did most of his work here on 2+2 because, to 2+2's credit, here is where the action (readership) is. Soon he became both a part of the action and a partial cause of it. Eventually his efforts were so noticeable that the PPA asked him to join up by becoming a member of the board. TE took the position only because he thought it would help achieve even more for the cause of legal poker. Part of that help was to take the issues 2+2 management and posters have, and try and get the PPA to address them. He really wanted to bridge the gap, and actively worked to do so.

Is it any surprise that he feels a bit let down that as a reward for all his efforts his 2+2 posts can no longer be his, but now must be the PPA's, to one degree or another?

Of course MM (and Bluff) have legitimate points (I just dont think they are IMPORTANT legitimate points, at least not now). So to them, letting TE continue on as before appears to imply that they have already had their issues addressed. As much as I understand that, making TE the focus of making this point was, IMHO, misdirected and counterproductive. The best voice for getting MM's issues addressed was TE precisely because he was a member of this community first. Now he is just another PPA representative TO this community. The difference will be felt - but hopefully not to a degree that will hurt the overall cause.

Skallagrim

[Jerry D]

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like going outside and setting my 5 twoplustwo books on fire. You have to be joking. Mason if you want to drive traffic to other sites then so be it. Unfortunately the time it takes to reorganize and what not, you have done alot of damage already I'm afraid. I feel like this is dealing with my 3 year old and sending him to timeout.

[/ QUOTE ]

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
Orange is an available color and easier on the eyes than yellow.

[/ QUOTE ]


Don't you all agree now? Thanks Mat.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't care how embarassing or industry heavy the finances are now. Come clean, show it, open it up to democratic processes. Im happy to work with it, and to give some money, but in no way will I vouch for it as representing the interests of players. The enemy of my enemby is my friend.
Neutral. However you want to say it. "We" are still waiting to make an "Us".

[/ QUOTE ]

When I say "we" I refer to all of the various "us"s involved in this little effort.

I read somewhere recently about the futileness of actually striving for the ideal as a goal. If you do not apporach your goals with reality as your means of achievement then you are doomed at the start.

The PPA has in no way "earned" my full endorsement, not that it is even intrested in it, but I do know I've shown up for almost every event and participated in almost every activity. I've also retained my right to critize only when I have a viable solution to discuss.

No I know this is no where the ideal, but pratical IMO.


D$D

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi JP:

We asked TE not to post anymore unless he identified himself as a PPA board member, but he continued to ignore our request. But he'll be able to post again tomorrow if he so chooses.

The compromise that we have implemented is to yellow his posting name and change his identity to "PPA Board Member." This was done so that all posters, especially new ones, will be aware of his position.

By the way, asking him to identify himself as a PPA board member in such a way that everyone sees this is the case, in my opinion, is good publicity for the PPA and helps to promote the organization.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Lostit]

Mason, I personally don't find your solution to be unreasonable, but as someone stated earlier... yellow??

Its a little hard on the eyes. OK, its hideous. This may seem trivial, but is the color up for negotiation at least?

And no, we're never satisfied.

Thanks

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
Mason, I personally don't find your solution to be unreasonable, but as someone stated earlier... yellow??

Its a little hard on the eyes. OK, its hideous. This may seem trivial, but is the color up for negotiation at least?


[/ QUOTE ]

It's been changed to orange.

Best wishes,
Mason

[JPFisher55]

Mason, your solution seems fine to me. I never really took any side in this dispute. I like the orange rather than the yellow. I hope that TE posts here in the future.

[Kodfish]

I'll tell you this much. I NEED TE's continued work to motivate me. Yeah, I guess I'm a child and need that stuff. So, I just seriously hope that TE continues his hard work in this very forum.

ps. As always, coming from a lurker it won't mean much...but Skallagrim is also great!

[Coy_Roy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can understand how he does not wish to start each post with a disclaimer that the post is not an official statement of the PPA.

[/ QUOTE ]


Although you might understand why he wouldn't want to have such a disclaimer in each post, would you also understand why/if he refused to? That is, why giving up posting here because of dislike of the disclaimer was more important than just considering it the price of working for the cause? All he has to do is tap a preprogrammed function key to add it.

[/ QUOTE ]



Bluff, would you also be willing to please sign every post you make with your title?

BluffTHIS
Mason Malmuth
Shill Extraordinaire



It would clarify to everyone immediately exactly where it is you're coming from.

[BluffTHIS!]

Not_So_Coy_Roy,

I'm not a shill for Mason but he and I do agree on most (but not all if you would read the fine points of previous debates) issues of the board makeup and transparency as they relate to the PPA. And I think it should be obvious to anyone that as this is his website, he can do as he pleases with it.

BluffTHIS!
His own man
Not affiliated with Bluff Mag or any other organization/person with "Bluff" in their title/name

[Yikes]

TE has done more than most for the movement to fully legalize poker, and has certainly done more than you Mason, the way you are treating him is horrible. He has clearly stated that he is our voice to the PPA, not the PPA's voice. He shouldn't have to have something telling people he is representing PPA when he is certainly not their voice.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
TE has done more than most for the movement to fully legalize poker, and has certainly done more than you Mason, the way you are treating him is horrible. He has clearly stated that he is our voice to the PPA, not the PPA's voice. He shouldn't have to have something telling people he is representing PPA when he is certainly not their voice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Berge, as the Gentlemen seemed to have reached a compromise for now perhaps a lock is in order?

Sort of a statement by both parties, which is evidenced by the return to "normal" I see no interests in any more picking at this previously open wound.


D$D

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
Berge, as the Gentlemen seemed to have reached a compromise for now perhaps a lock is in order?

Sort of a statement by both parties, which is evidenced by the return to "normal" I see no interests in any more picking at this previously open wound.


D$D

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your point, but I'd vote to keep the thread open to keep any lingering discussion in one central location. Whatever Berge thinks is fine with me.

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Berge, as the Gentlemen seemed to have reached a compromise for now perhaps a lock is in order?

Sort of a statement by both parties, which is evidenced by the return to "normal" I see no interests in any more picking at this previously open wound.


D$D

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your point, but I'd vote to keep the thread open to keep any lingering discussion in one central location. Whatever Berge thinks is fine with me.

[/ QUOTE ]


Much more your call than mine.


D$D