QQ hits a decent board

[iheartponeez]

Button is a pretty solid reg, UTG is a total moron

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com (http://weaktight.com/)

Stacks:
UTG (<font color="#0000cc">$17.65</font>)
UTG+1 (<font color="#0000cc">$25.70</font>)
CO (<font color="#0000cc">$18.55</font>)
BTN (<font color="#0000cc">$25.45</font>)
SB (<font color="#0000cc">$5.85</font>)
Hero (<font color="#0000cc">$25.00</font>)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is BB Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#777777">1 fold</font>, CO calls $0.25, <font color="#cc0000">BTN raises to $1.8</font>, <font color="#777777">1 fold</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $4.25</font>, UTG calls $4, <font color="#777777">CO folds</font>, BTN calls $2.45

Flop: J/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif ($13.1, 3 players)


So what's my plan here, bet/fold? Check-raise (I doubt this is getting one street around without someone betting)? Bet/3-bet?

I'm totally unafraid of UTG, he's the kind of guy who's holding something like A7o here (and probably willing to shove with the 7). The button is a little more trouble. He might be on AA/KK, or he might have JJ, but he's also the kind to call with suited connectors/AK, maybe AQ, and would take a shot at it.

[Nick C]

My default would be to lead for $10 or so, with the plan of getting the rest in on the turn (or getting the rest in when I called someone else's flop raise /images/graemlins/tongue.gif). But if, based on your read, you're confident someone is going to bet, then checkraising is probably the superior play.

I mean, realistically, a flop lead for $10 is frequently simply going to take it down, so if you can get someone to take a stab instead with a far inferior hand, then that's good.

[iheartponeez]

Well, the problem is that I don't know where I stand vs. UTG's range. But I guess with this much in the pot, and SOMEONE (whether it be me or him) betting, there's pretty much no way to fold, right?

[Scaramouche]

i don't think you can bet\fold this. bet/call or check raise.

[iheartponeez]

I think I just hate QQ/JJ. Usually when I get flat called with them I end up stacking myself to a bigger overpair.

[stu-unger]

i open shove. if we lead for 10 we shouldnt be folding to any raise getting the odds we would be. there arent a lot of turn cards we will like, and i think a shove gets us called really light a good amount of the time.

[Phytopath]

How can you bet fold? If you make a decent bet you have committed 60%+ of your stack already and can't fold on this type of board.

Since it was 3-bet PF with 3-callers it becomes more problematic, but still you are essentially committed with this type of flop. I bet and get it AI either here or on the turn, I'd probably bet pot then bet your last 8 or whatever on the turn regardless.

[latvaniemi]

bet fold since button raised it up good then flatcalled. His range is probably AK and jj+ or called pp for setvalue. Then if he figts back your always beat.

[Phytopath]

[ QUOTE ]
bet fold since button raised it up good then flatcalled. His range is probably AK and jj+ or called pp for setvalue. Then if he figts back your always beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize the stack sizes right? What amount do you bet here if you are going to fold?

[Aceium]

I would guess that if villan is a solid reg, then he would not usually cold-call a 3bet with AA or KK. I would lead this flop and probably call a raise.

[Profish2285]

This is a clear bet/call imo. How can you bet/fold with the stack sizes the way they are? That is terrible. If youre betting around 10 here which is a standard bet I would think, you have put in about 60% of your stack already. The odds would be too good to fold if you get shoved on and the board is too wet to go for a c/r. If you miss your chance there are alot of bad turn cards.

[icheckcallu]

bet call all in... varience.. next hand

[wooziephantom]

A multitablng regular wud most likely 4bet with kk/aa after a rr and a call, unless he reckons it's more ev+ to have utg in there as he wud felt with any pair/at least top pair.. I think u have to go broke here

[Xanthro]

I agree, you're going broke here. You should be ahead based on play.

Bet $10 and call any shove.

As for the check raise, how often do you 3 bet and not at least C-Bet the flop? If never, don't do so now. AK could easily check behind, and you don't want a free card given.

[Lego05]

Grunch...


I'd bet $9.5 and get it in via either a flop raise or shoving the turn.

[KEW]

IMO PF raise is to small..$4.25 is not even a Pot sized raise..Based on your read of UTG your small raise is offerring both player far too good implied odds to call(esp button if UTG calls)..In this situation I like to make a slightly larger then pot size raise to about $7-$7.50(PSR=$6.00)..I want to charge both players for me having to play the entire hand OOP..If button is solid reg he will be ISO raising a wide range here..You want to punish his aggression so he does not get carried away and not give him the correct odds to play IP vs you..

As played lead for about $10 and you need to call a shove from either..OOP IMO you can not risk a freecard in order to go for a C/R...Based on your read I can not see a solid button slowplaying AA/KK in this spot..But the PF action does not limit button holding that much..

[iheartponeez]

I know my preflop raise was too small.

A solid reg can commonly just call pre with AA/KK. I do it all the time. I'll reraise an initial raise (unless I'm on the button, the raiser is ahead of me, and I'm reasonably sure the blinds will fold), but if it's just me and someone else in a 3-bet pot, I'm flatting, generally. Flat calling makes it so so so much more likely that the guy ahead of me will fire with overs, and putting in one real bet in a 3-bet pot is putting in a lot of money. Honestly, I think flat calling HU with AA/KK is a much better play than raising. The amount of times you go broke vs. a set is miniscule compared to the amount of times QQ/JJ/AK fires at a ragged board and then has to fold (or more likely shove because the pot is so bloated), or even c-bets into a scary board because they hope it scares you too.

A 4-bet is a very very clear message, and when I have a superstrong over, I don't want anyone that aware of it. I want the other guy thinking I made a donk/reluctant call of his 3-bet.

Cliffs Notes: 4-betting AA/KK HU is a perfect way to fold out QQ/JJ/AK, while getting shoved on by a hand that chops or beats you. Flat calling with AA/KK is almost guaranteed money vs. a 3-bet HU pot and I think that most regs understand this.

Why is anyone 4-betting AA/KK in the usual 25NL game, devoid of light 3-bets and tricksy preflop raising/3-betting?

[iheartponeez]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, you're going broke here. You should be ahead based on play.

Bet $10 and call any shove.

As for the check raise, how often do you 3 bet and not at least C-Bet the flop? If never, don't do so now. AK could easily check behind, and you don't want a free card given.

[/ QUOTE ]

There haven't been any 3-bets at this table yet, but I know the villains to some extent, and I know they are not leaving $13 on the table without taking a shot at it.

[wooziephantom]

[ QUOTE ]

Cliffs Notes: 4-betting AA/KK HU is a perfect way to fold out QQ/JJ/AK, while getting shoved on by a hand that chops or beats you. Flat calling with AA/KK is almost guaranteed money vs. a 3-bet HU pot and I think that most regs understand this.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is all very obvious, in my post I referred to the fact that u 3-bet and one player in front called.. I think the likelyhood of him 4betting is a fair bit greater with two people already in the pot holding aa/kk, but villain probably have the same read on utg as u, so then again...

[iheartponeez]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Cliffs Notes: 4-betting AA/KK HU is a perfect way to fold out QQ/JJ/AK, while getting shoved on by a hand that chops or beats you. Flat calling with AA/KK is almost guaranteed money vs. a 3-bet HU pot and I think that most regs understand this.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is all very obvious, in my post I referred to the fact that u 3-bet and one player in front called.. I think the likelyhood of him 4betting is a fair bit greater with two people already in the pot holding aa/kk, but villain probably have the same read on utg as u, so then again...

[/ QUOTE ]


So then, it seems that every time I 3-bet pre, with QQ/JJ, get called, and bet into a good flop, I'm basically praying I don't get raised because then I have to shove.

And that's why I hate both hands.

[wooziephantom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Cliffs Notes: 4-betting AA/KK HU is a perfect way to fold out QQ/JJ/AK, while getting shoved on by a hand that chops or beats you. Flat calling with AA/KK is almost guaranteed money vs. a 3-bet HU pot and I think that most regs understand this.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is all very obvious, in my post I referred to the fact that u 3-bet and one player in front called.. I think the likelyhood of him 4betting is a fair bit greater with two people already in the pot holding aa/kk, but villain probably have the same read on utg as u, so then again...

[/ QUOTE ]


So then, it seems that every time I 3-bet pre, with QQ/JJ, get called, and bet into a good flop, I'm basically praying I don't get raised because then I have to shove.

And that's why I hate both hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is obviously that u got two callers and the pot is huge so b/f is pretty much out of the question.. In a HU pot u can b/f to a raise on a board like this after villain flat calls pf.. But this is only with a good read, since so many are willing to felt with weaker oop at these stakes... Not a big fan of these situations myself..