to VB .. or not to VB .. that is my question

[matrix]

Party Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker (http://www.leggopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.leggopoker.com/hh)

UTG: $39.39
MP: $81.90
Hero (CO): $54.53
BTN: $49.25
SB: $114.20
BB: $51.45

Pre-Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG calls $0.50, MP calls $0.50, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3</font>, 3 folds, UTG calls $2.50, MP folds

Flop: ($7.25) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($7.25) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $5</font>, UTG calls $5

River: ($17.25) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero Value bets - or checks behind?

i) v TAG
ii) v lagtard
iii) vs Loose Passive station

comments and beratements on Heros line are appreciated vs this 50/14/1.5 Party donk.

[EMc]

Why doesnt hero CB?

[kroeliewoelie]

If UTG is either TAG or lagtard he will never take this line. Versus a calling station I valuebet.

[matrix]

I didn't think this was a great spot to CB seeing as villain calls ~90% of CB's and I am actively trying to keep my CB% closer to ~65ish - tho thats a whole different thread.

[kaz2107]

i cbet here all day baring some ultra weird read. and then i prolly check behind on the river most times. if we bet we r HIGHLY repping a K here and i dont see us getting called down light enough to make a bet profitable. but i think by not cbetting it makes this thing so much more difficult to play

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't think this was a great spot to CB seeing as villain calls ~90% of CB's and I am actively trying to keep my CB% closer to ~65ish - tho thats a whole different thread.

[/ QUOTE ]if he calls alot of hands preflop and doesnt fold flops then AQ is a [censored] valuebet on the flop

[creamfillin]

V-bet always. If you check you'll find alot of 88,99,Tx,QJ hands that you could of gotten value out of.

[doppelganger]

grunch:

i. Vs. a TAG this should be an easy check through. Villain will fold with nothing and the river completes a few draws. He would call w/ a K and c/r with a straight.

ii. Lagtard - I assume this means someone would would bluff c/r the river, so I will just check through here as well. Getting blown off the best hand would be a tragedy.

iii. Easy VB against a calling station, here's my logic: His call on the turn will mean either air, a pair of 4's, 7's, T's, K's, or some middle PP. All of those things will call our bet (except maybe strong K's which will raise and we can then fold, or air which will fold.) and we are ahead of the majority of that calling range.

I guess I consider this villain a mix between ii and iii, so it really depends on his river tendencies. Most likely I'd value bet though, since his range will include a lot of pairs that are calling and very few cards that beat us.

[matrix]

Party Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker (http://www.leggopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.leggopoker.com/hh)

UTG: $39.39
MP: $81.90
Hero (CO): $54.53
BTN: $49.25
SB: $114.20
BB: $51.45

Pre-Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG calls $0.50, MP calls $0.50, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3</font>, 3 folds, UTG calls $2.50, MP folds

Flop: ($7.25) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $5</font>, UTG calls $5

Turn: ($17.25) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero ??

OK so I have rewritten history - Hero now takes a stnd line and CB's flop - UTG instacalls.

Now what's the plan?

If UTG leads the turn for 1/2-2/3rds if I take this line I tend to fold and kick something...

[creamfillin]

Check. Double barreling this guy is spew, we have alot of equity, lets see a river.

[doppelganger]

[ QUOTE ]
If UTG leads the turn for 1/2-2/3rds if I take this line I tend to fold and kick something...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Seems like a standard fold, you have basically nothing but A high in that situation. If he can donk that turn with AJ then more power to him, but I'd say most times you'd be beat and making a correct fold.

I check through. Spike a Q and scoop the bluffs you just induced from AT. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Last Chapter]

I try to err on the side of value betting more often than may be correct. People love to make bad decisions.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
Check. Double barreling this guy is spew, we have alot of equity, lets see a river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo - so if we do that we get to the river with the same potsize as in the OP hand - this guy is standard weekend table Party donk and I doubt he notices that much of a difference whether we CB the flop and check the turn or check the turn and CB the flop. Or is that bad thinking?

Hence my not CBing the totally whiffed flop but "CBing" the scarey turn when I gots outs to a great hand.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Why doesnt hero CB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Flop check is fine imo, board is pretty non threatening. I think betting is fine on this river but not mandatory, its probably a 0EV play. Make it half pot or less.

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
Bingo - so if we do that we get to the river with the same potsize as in the OP hand - this guy is standard weekend table Party donk and I doubt he notices that much of a difference whether we CB the flop and check the turn or check the turn and CB the flop. Or is that bad thinking?

Hence my not CBing the totally whiffed flop but "CBing" the scarey turn when I gots outs to a great hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree with this and I bet the turn when the king comes off in the second hand history.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check. Double barreling this guy is spew, we have alot of equity, lets see a river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo - so if we do that we get to the river with the same potsize as in the OP hand - this guy is standard weekend table Party donk and I doubt he notices that much of a difference whether we CB the flop and check the turn or check the turn and CB the flop. Or is that bad thinking?

Hence my not CBing the totally whiffed flop but "CBing" the scarey turn when I gots outs to a great hand.

[/ QUOTE ]no... u gave him a free card to hit top pair. he can have a lot of Kx hands that u r ahead of on the flop. now u r behind all of those dramatically. now on the turn instead of u betting with probably the best and and if not u still have at least 2 overs and will normally get to see and turn and river to improve. by checking the flop u allow villian to catch up with worse hands that now obv call the turn after improving.

imo after checking the flop i check the turn too rather then delay cbet it. the king was about as bad a card as coulda hit imo and helps his range a lot.

[Speedlimits]

pretty standard c-bet
as played bet river

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If UTG leads the turn for 1/2-2/3rds if I take this line I tend to fold and kick something...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Seems like a standard fold, you have basically nothing but A high in that situation. If he can donk that turn with AJ then more power to him, but I'd say most times you'd be beat and making a correct fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

implied odds.

Thats why I kick something - If I don't autopilot CB the flop and villain donks the turn I have a bunch of outs that it's probably +EV to chase seeing as the rare times I spike my 3 outter vs this kind of player I can stack him on the river with my nut straight.

If he leads the turn after I CB the flop I have no implied odds worth shouting about - also as well as my 3 big money outs I probably have 7 further outs (J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Aces and Queens) where I make enough of a hand to drag a small/medium pot as well. So when I have to make the "correct" fold cos this villain autocalls flop bets spikes TPNK and decides to bet into me and I have 10 outs enticing me to call, but I can't cos the implieds have evaporated it's annoying.

(which in a very large nutshell is why I didn't CB the flop)