Easy shove?

[iheartponeez]

Unknown, 5 hands in.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com (http://weaktight.com/)

Stacks:
Hero (<font color="#0000cc">$26.50</font>)
UTG+1 (<font color="#0000cc">$14.60</font>)
CO (<font color="#0000cc">$26.25</font>)
BTN (<font color="#0000cc">$5.90</font>)
SB (<font color="#0000cc">$10.25</font>)
BB (<font color="#0000cc">$17.10</font>)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is UTG A/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="#777777">4 folds</font>, BB calls $0.75

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif ($2.1, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $1.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises to $3.25</font>,


Easy shove here?

[EMc]

yea

[iheartponeez]

These easy shoves have been treating me especially poorly.

[Profish2285]

Shoving is not only standard here but mandatory. Folding is obviously weak and calling is terrible as there are a ton of bad turn cards.

[PepsPersson]

Shoving here seem to be extremely bad.

[monkeymaps]

[ QUOTE ]
Not shoving here seems to be extremely bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[PepsPersson]

Lol ok, I still think shoving here is terrible.

[spacetime]

y

[Profish2285]

Yea I am curious too, so you do what here and why?

[doppelganger]

Lol, ok thanks for the unqualified and unexplained disagreement with those of us who know that a shove is the standard play here.

I'll let others elaborate.

[SDone]

Shove all day.

[Muguu]

Ehm was just wondering why is a shove mandatory and not just another reraise?

[Muguu]

Considering most people are donks at this level why scare him off with an allin bet?

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
Ehm was just wondering why is a shove mandatory and not just another reraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

there is around $7 in the pot right now. Any decent re-raise will be well over half of BB's stack, and we will be compelled to call any turn or AI, even a card like the 6/images/graemlins/club.gif. Get the money in ahead.

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
Considering most people are donks at this level why scare him off with an allin bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be happy enough scooping the pot at this point.

[PepsPersson]

[ QUOTE ]
Lol, ok thanks for the unqualified and unexplained disagreement with those of us who know that a shove is the standard play here.

I'll let others elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know my replies was vague, and I am sorry about that. Was doing some other studies at the same time about another hand. Anyway, just to let others know, I havent seen a post in this thread that clearly states why shoving is superior? Yet everyone seem to be claiming it with 1-3 word posts. Please elaborate you too.

As for my reasons for not shoving. I dont want to scare away TP hands and the like, that we are ahead off. I don't want to give him the chance to show the white flag and give up the hand without contributing more to the pot. Sure, the fact is there that he can be a donk that will be paying us off with TP if we push.

I look at it this way, his range here is wide. Even if there are alot of scary cards, I dont include his range to just be flush cards if a flush card is hitting the turn. Or straight draws if a straight card is hitting and then giving up. I think calling and getting it in on any turn will have the same result, and even better, than just shoving here, since villain will be contributing more to the pot when he is behind, instead of letting him surrender. We are in position and he will act first on turn. I also think the pot is to small to make an all in bet here. Just noticed however, that villain wasnt a full stack so an all in isnt as terrible as I first thought. However, I still dont like it.

If villain had a full stack. Would you guys still advocate a shove? Just curious.

Also, just to clarify (this is an edit of the post) I would suggest shoving before reraising, since we arent folding to a shove anyway.

[doppelganger]

His range really isn't that wide here, it includes OESD's, FD's, TPGK, and sets. For the most part we are very vulnerable but ahead of that range on the flop. We want to get as much of our money into the pot while we have an equity advantage.

Making a standard sized 3bet on the flop is a bad play because, if we get called, the turn can bring a lot of scare cards which we don't want to see. Scare cards on the turn can indicate we're beat (sometimes), but mostly will just kill our action when we're ahead and cause us to lose value in the hand.

Also, the presence of all the draws will induce some villains to make weaker calls, assuming we are on the draws ourselves. This makes us more money in the long run.

[PepsPersson]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the presence of all the draws will induce some villains to make weaker calls, assuming we are on the draws ourselves. This makes us more money in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. However, I am now thinking that, do villains at these stakes really put us on draws when we open preflop, bet/reraises on the flop? I get what you're saying, just curious as I am adopting to the games atm. Seems like many players only think what the books suggests, and therefor always puts us on a monster (monster here being QQ+ in their eyes, not mine) and therefor not calling any wider than usual? And only really calls us with OESD, FD, sets and other combos we arent as happy to be up against, and throw away the TP and other crap things?

I may be shoving now tho /images/graemlins/smile.gif but vs v aggressive opponents I kind of like my own line /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Shoving is not only standard here but mandatory. Folding is obviously weak and calling is terrible as there are a ton of bad turn cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is wrong dude, shoving is nowhere near mandatory. You can definitely call and see a turn and try to get to SD. Shoving isn't awful but its nowhere near a clearly optimal play. Given the board I think you can safely call and bomb a blank turn.

The reason is that if you shove here you will likely be called by hands which beat you or hands which you have only very slim equity against. Its tough for someone to check minraise you on this board then call a worse hand when you shove. Your equity skyrockets on a blank turn which is a far better place to get your money in.

[wingchunflush]

I think people with under 60 posts and giving very vague and somewhat bad advice should be spending their time posting hands they have questions with rather than giving advice and then arguing about how they are right.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
I think people with under 60 posts and giving very vague and somewhat bad advice should be spending their time posting hands they have questions with rather than giving advice and then arguing about how they are right.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[doppelganger]

[ QUOTE ]
I may be shoving now tho but vs v aggressive opponents I kind of like my own line

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an important discussion point. Villain in the OP was unknown, but actually you really want to be shoving against aggressive opponents MORE often than against passive ones. (Because we can weight draws more heavily in an aggressive player's range than in a passive's.)

[doppelganger]

[ QUOTE ]
Your equity skyrockets on a blank turn which is a far better place to get your money in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, but what is a blank turn? We definitely are unhappy to see a 7, Q, 9 or club, and there are a few others that complete gutshots that I'll ignore for now. That's 22 cards out of 47 unknowns, which means we're going to see a bad turn card at least 47% of the time.

One other point that occurred to me though, on the other side is that we are holding the Ac. This probably discounts an unknown's probability of getting aggressive w/ a FD since it wouldn't be to the nuts. Not too sure how we should incorporate that into our decision.

[wingchunflush]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think people with under 60 posts and giving very vague and somewhat bad advice should be spending their time posting hands they have questions with rather than giving advice and then arguing about how they are right.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I learned from the best LOL

[PepsPersson]

[ QUOTE ]
I think people with under 60 posts and giving very vague and somewhat bad advice should be spending their time posting hands they have questions with rather than giving advice and then arguing about how they are right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting way to look at it. So, if I where to post in hands where I agree with the majority and just say "shove, its easy" and bump my post count to lets say 500, then my post in this thread would have more to it? And to me, it seem thats the only reason this is considered bad is that it seem to be going against the nature of micro/small stakes not to push your aces here. I was trying to start a discussion on if pushing here really is optimal. But I guess I cant cos my post count is to low and that will just raise eyebrows of me being a bad player. Low post count + not standard line is always bad right? /images/graemlins/confused.gif I think all of us should go deeper than that and always look at a situation in more than one way...

Doppeldanger: Thanks for allowing me to learn /images/graemlins/smile.gif Appreciate your posts.