50NL: Interesting decision with a shortie

[billip62]

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker (http://www.leggopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.leggopoker.com/hh)

BB: $162.85
UTG: $87.40
MP: $36.15
CO: $27
Hero (BTN): $50.75
SB: $53.55

Pre-Flop: K/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif dealt to Hero (BTN)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $3.50</font>, MP folds, CO calls $3, <font color="red">Hero raises to $15.25</font>, 2 folds, UTG calls $11.75, CO calls $11.75

Flop: ($46) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">CO bets $11.50</font>,

I think it's pretty obvious that I want this all in with the short stack, but how does the deep stack effect the action?

[PJo336]

This is tough, its impossible to deem what hes up to, but I will take the check for weakness and put my money in and pray utg folds. You 3bet and hit your money card, i think its gotta go in anyways. Plus, hes deep, you are not, its regular stack for you. How would you play against 100bb in a 3bet pot hitting your Ace? Same way, arrreeeen

[willyc]

Why are we worried about UTG?

[billip62]

This is more a bet sizing question I think. I'm in a pot where I want to isolate and play for stacks, but what bet does that the most effectively when factoring in the possibility of a c/r from utg. is it an easy call if utg ships it?

[PJo336]

the pot is too big to do anything but push, just push

[Genesis]

I don't think there is much to debate here. You have a 1/2 pot bet left in your stack while holding TPTK. UTG is nothing to worry about. If he holds AA or 99 so be it, but otherwise you're way ahead of him. Easy push.

[subs]

im just smooth calling to try and draw UTG into the pot with the intention of getting all in on the turn or river

[gumpzilla]

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im just smooth calling to try and draw UTG into the pot with the intention of getting all in on the turn or river

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Yeah, I think so too. With it being a 3 bet pot and the Ad out, it's very unlikely that he can be drawing to many outs. Calling, and inducing an overcall (or even better a shove) seems like the way to go. Given this board and action, it's very difficult for us to be behind. So I'm getting all in on this hand, but I would love for UTG to think he can move me here. EDIT: If there's an overcall the stack goes in on any turn.

[PJo336]

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im just smooth calling to try and draw UTG into the pot with the intention of getting all in on the turn or river

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Yeah, I think so too. With it being a 3 bet pot and the Ad out, it's very unlikely that he can be drawing to many outs. Calling, and inducing an overcall (or even better a shove) seems like the way to go. Given this board and action, it's very difficult for us to be behind. So I'm getting all in on this hand, but I would love for UTG to think he can move me here. EDIT: If there's an overcall the stack goes in on any turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

hes not gonna think he can move u unless hes a moran. Youve put in 27 dollars outta 50 if u call, and the pot is gonna be like over 100 if he pushes, there is no way in hell you could call and then fold. Put it in urself

[gumpzilla]

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hes not gonna think he can move u unless hes a moran. Youve put in 27 dollars outta 50 if u call, and the pot is gonna be like over 100 if he pushes, there is no way in hell you could call and then fold. Put it in urself

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Do you agree that it is highly unlikely he is drawing to more than 2 outs? Because of this, there's almost no downside to calling here. Try and squeeze a little more out of him.

[PJo336]

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hes not gonna think he can move u unless hes a moran. Youve put in 27 dollars outta 50 if u call, and the pot is gonna be like over 100 if he pushes, there is no way in hell you could call and then fold. Put it in urself

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Do you agree that it is highly unlikely he is drawing to more than 2 outs? Because of this, there's almost no downside to calling here. Try and squeeze a little more out of him.

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as i said hes not gonna think he can push you off anything so hes prob not coming along vs 2 others with JJ-KK. I push to get value from badly played worse Aces, and believe it or not a fd is not outta the question here

[gumpzilla]

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as i said hes not gonna think he can push you off anything so hes prob not coming along vs 2 others with JJ-KK. I push to get value from badly played worse Aces, and believe it or not a fd is not outta the question here

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as getting value from worse As, huh? If you call instead of shove, you think that makes it less likely for them to get money in? If they won't shove as a bluff over your call because they assume you're priced in, they certainly won't fold an actual hand on a later street facing the same odds. So this is a nonissue.

Flush draws are unlikely and not really worth worrying about, but I don't think they change much, because it's not like you can price them out on the flop anyway. I think the slim chance of getting bluffed at (or getting QQ-KK to hang around) is worth more than value that you miss from letting a flush draw peel for one card and then possibly folding the turn, which I think is unlikely.

The more I look at it, the more calling looks superior to shoving here.

[PJo336]

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As far as getting value from worse As, huh? If you call instead of shove, you think that makes it less likely for them to get money in? If they won't shove as a bluff over your call because they assume you're priced in, they certainly won't fold an actual hand on a later street facing the same odds. So this is a nonissue.

[/ QUOTE ]
i agree with this, its just the simple addage of "get it in before they know theyre behind. Like you said if its going in its going in, my personal preference is to get it in now.
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Flush draws are unlikely and not really worth worrying about, but I don't think they change much, because it's not like you can price them out on the flop anyway. I think the slim chance of getting bluffed at (or getting QQ-KK to hang around) is worth more than value that you miss from letting a flush draw peel for one card and then possibly folding the turn, which I think is unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]
this would be easier to deem with reads on the opponent. Readless you have no clue if hes dumb enuff to come along with QQ or not, or if he is in the hand with KdQd. I still think the pot is so large that most villians will know u are committed and not come along drawing to 2 outs just bc u call. Who knows tho.

What range do u think utg puts u on flat calling?

[gumpzilla]

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this would be easier to deem with reads on the opponent. Readless you have no clue if hes dumb enuff to come along with QQ or not, or if he is in the hand with KdQd. I still think the pot is so large that most villians will know u are committed and not come along drawing to 2 outs just bc u call. Who knows tho.

What range do u think utg puts u on flat calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure. Since hero was the 3 bettor, there's a slight chance they can put you on a FD. Possibly JJ-KK, and a couple of As.

I'm not saying that I think there's a huge chance that you're going to get more action here, but you want more action, and I think calling is more likely to get it for you than shoving.

[subs]

if hes dumb enough to have a flush draw... hes not folding ever... there really is no down side to slowing down here and hoping QQ/KK or some hand like that decides to hang around or make a terrible bluff (yes i have seen horrible bluffs like this)

[WhiteWolf]

I like the idea of trying to induce the overcall and getting it in on the turn. Even with implied odds we're only giving him 7-1 pot odds on the call, which is not enough for any 2 or 3-outer to profitably call but will look awfully tempting - much more so than an immediate push. If we do induce the overcall, we've bloated the pot even more and increased our chance of getting it all in on the turn.

Sure, calling here gives flush draws better odds, but we're not folding a flush draw with a flop push anyways. We also have to discount flushes here, because that means he called a pre-flop 3-bet w/KQs at best, not a likely scenario.

[ryang]

i don't really understand, you put 1/3ish ur stack in pf and this flop scares you?

[billip62]

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i don't really understand, you put 1/3ish ur stack in pf and this flop scares you?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol I wasn't scared to get the money in, that's one of the few flops where tptk is a real monster. I'm just interested in other lines.

As for reads there really arn't any, this hand happened a while ago so we'll have to assume two randoms. btw the shortie was a total donk.

[PJo336]

i can see the merits of calling, its an interesting hand, wish we had reads