With dead money is this is a +ev call?

[OSUGreg1983]

Disregarding my preflop 3 bet OOP, would this be an ok call against an unknown villain? There's dead money in the pot from my 3 bet, so assuming he doesn't have AA/KK, would it be an acceptable race?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker (http://www.leggopoker.com)Hand History Converter (http://www.leggopoker.com/hh)

CO: $25.05
BTN: $14.65
Hero (SB): $25.55
BB: $4.85
UTG: $26.45
MP: $25

Pre-Flop: A/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $1</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3</font>, BB folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $25 and is All-In</font>, Hero ??

[Lego05]

Well yea assuming he doesn't have AA/KK it's a good call. However without a read to the contrary I think he has AA/KK quite often. And you can't even call against a range of TT+,AK.


By the way I think your flop 3bet should be a little bigger.

[Nick C]

I'm done with the hand once I see this 4-bet push, but if his range was, say, QQ-22, you'd have approximately a break-even call (edit: the reason I'm calling it "approximately break-even" rather than "+EV" is that you're a slight dog to QQ-22 and you're just getting a little better than 1:1).

Edit 2: Er, actually, your suitedness probably helps enough to make the call +EV versus QQ-22, but I think there's easily enough AA-KK in his range to make the question basically irrelevant for practical purposes in this hand.

[whyzze]

yes


in the future...ask http://www.pokerstove.com/

[vixticator]

What do you mean assuming they don't have AA/KK, are you serious?

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]

Edit 2: Er, actually, your suitedness probably helps enough to make the call +EV versus QQ-22, but I think there's easily enough AA-KK in his range to make the question basically irrelevant for practical purposes in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct.

[latvaniemi]

Without read or prior experience i usually folds since we're coinflipping atbest. With read regarding his retardiness i call .. :P

[OSUGreg1983]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way I think your flop 3bet should be a little bigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm on Stars and there's no "Pot" button and I don't know how to quickly calculate what a pot size raise is. I'm assuming that's what you're suggesting my 3-bet should be.

How is it calculated?

Side Note: Is there a way to block people from posting to your thread, specifically Vixticator as I constantly get bogus responses from him.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By the way I think your flop 3bet should be a little bigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm on Stars and there's no "Pot" button and I don't know how to quickly calculate what a pot size raise is. I'm assuming that's what you're suggesting my 3-bet should be.

How is it calculated?

Side Note: Is there a way to block people from posting to your thread, specifically Vixticator as I constantly get bogus responses from him.

[/ QUOTE ]


For a pot size raise look at what the pot is then add what you need to put in to call and that's the new pot....then add this new pot to the amount you need to put in to call and whatever that number is, is what you make it total for a pot sized raise.


I usually make 3bets 3.5 times the original raise though I vary it occassionally depending on the situation. And obviously raise more if there's a caller between you and the original raiser.



Also if you click on somebody's name there is an ignore user option to click....I've never used it but I assume anybody you are ignoring you will just not see their posts although they can still post in your threads.



However, IMO, Vixticator is absolutely correct in that, that assumption is terrible.

[OSUGreg1983]

I worded myself poorly. I didnt mean to say AA/KK wasn't in his range. I meant to say "if" AA/KK is not in his immediate range and I have a read that he's splashing around a lot preflop, would it be a good call. I was referring hypothetically.

I did not take AA/KK out of my read.

[fozzy71]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I'm on Stars and there's no "Pot" button and I don't know how to quickly calculate what a pot size raise is. I'm assuming that's what you're suggesting my 3-bet should be.

How is it calculated?



[/ QUOTE ]

BetPot AHK - FTW

[OSUGreg1983]

[ QUOTE ]
BetPot AHK - FTW

[/ QUOTE ]

I tried running this but i can't get it installed. I'm not a computer wiz and it seemed a bit more complicated than just downloading a simple program.

[vixticator]

Without knowing this is AA/KK a huge amount of the time, I will try to get it all in with AKs because normally going to be either me 3betting and them shoving like here or me raising and getting 3bet then shoving. Especially the latter where you have FE instead of calling. It plays better than QQ preflop IMO. Also, just for balancing purposes since you rarely get AKs, about same as AA or KK.

I'll be more cautious with AKo in a tighter game where I suspect the 3bet/shove ranges are small simply because it comes around a lot more and cannot be used for balance. I'll still shove with it most of the time, just less calling.

Is this standard, fine, w/e?

[bozzer]

if the guy a) 4 bets 2.5x our raise, or b) pots it are we shoving?

[genius55]

wtf i snap call this like at least 60% (fold 40%) and don't even think about it with no reads. i only fold this with reads.

the percentages are irrelivant i'm just saying that with no reads i call somteimes and ifold sometimes but i call more often because aks is a huge hand.

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
wtf i snap call this like at least 60% (fold 40%) and don't even think about it with no reads. i only fold this with reads.

the percentages are irrelivant i'm just saying that with no reads i call somteimes and ifold sometimes but i call more often because aks is a huge hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

unfortunately this makes no sense. you should be calling or folding 100%, whichever is correct.

[genius55]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wtf i snap call this like at least 60% (fold 40%) and don't even think about it with no reads. i only fold this with reads.

the percentages are irrelivant i'm just saying that with no reads i call somteimes and ifold sometimes but i call more often because aks is a huge hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

unfortunately this makes no sense. you should be calling or folding 100%, whichever is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

no because i know that calling is a high variance decision and i may desire a lower variance spot.


also lol at u thinking there is ever a 100% correct way to play. u must be new to this.

[Lego05]

IMO calling without reads sucks horribly. It's -ev against TT+,AK and assuming an unknown is 4bet shoving wider than that is pretty terrible IMO. With reads it could be a call.



And yea, genius55, against an unknown its either right to call or fold (I think fold))...100% of the time (assuming same stack sizes every time.) DUCY

[genius55]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO calling without reads sucks horribly. It's -ev against TT+,AK and assuming an unknown is 4bet shoving wider than that is pretty terrible IMO. With reads it could be a call.



And yea, genius55, against an unknown its either right to call or fold...100% of the time. DUCY

[/ QUOTE ]

no, show me truth

[genius55]

It's also a known fact that unkowns have huge ranges in Micro NL including hands like a4 offsuit and trash like that.

[Lego05]

Becuase with no reads you can never change the range you're assuming villian has. So it's either right against the range or wrong and since the range always stays the same since you have no reads.....

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
It's also a known fact that unkowns have huge ranges in Micro NL including hands like a4 offsuit and trash like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think unknowns 4bet shove those hands a lot though. True I've played less than 150 hands at 25NL, but it certainly doesn't happen at 50NL and above too much and I doubt it happens that much at 25NL either.

[Lego05]

BTW not just this thread but this one and others thanks for keeping me awake even though I should have gone to bed hours ago....saw one of my new top 3 favorite fish sitting at a 200NL table and made another 100 bucks today....$180 at the 200NL but unfortunately lost some money at the other 100NL tables I opened. Whatever....an extra $100 for a bit less than an hour cause I was still awake thanks to 2+2 threads.


2+2....very +ev.

[genius55]

[ QUOTE ]
Becuase with no reads you can never change the range you're assuming villian has. So it's either right against the range or wrong and since the range always stays the same since you have no reads.....

[/ QUOTE ]

lol that is true. but with no reads u can't specify a range at all so your point is null and void

[genius55]

it's like ok i have no reads. therefore i assign villains range to premiums tt-aa and ak. when we all know for a fact people go all in preflop with way less than this at random times

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Becuase with no reads you can never change the range you're assuming villian has. So it's either right against the range or wrong and since the range always stays the same since you have no reads.....

[/ QUOTE ]

lol that is true. but with no reads u can't specify a range at all so your point is null and void

[/ QUOTE ]


I can too specify a range and I say it's mostly big pairs and AK. Obviously without reads it may be way off. But in my experience this is the best guess for his range until I have more information that can prove otherwise or at least provide evidence for it.

[genius55]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Becuase with no reads you can never change the range you're assuming villian has. So it's either right against the range or wrong and since the range always stays the same since you have no reads.....

[/ QUOTE ]

lol that is true. but with no reads u can't specify a range at all so your point is null and void

[/ QUOTE ]


I can too specify a range and I say it's mostly big pairs and AK. Obviously without reads it may be way off. But in my experience this is the best guess for his range until I have more information that can prove otherwise or at least provide evidence for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol so as u say u r basically guessing. and ur saying that there should be a 100% correct rule at the same time. which is an obvious paradox even if u include ur "assumption".

[Lego05]

Well you set the range that you believe unknowns will have. You are either + or - ev against that range so you should be doing that same thing 100% of the time.


And the range I set for unknowns in this situation is a very very very educated guess if you want to call it a guess.

[genius55]

[ QUOTE ]
Well you set the range that you believe unknowns will have. You are either + or - ev against that range so you should be doing that same thing 100% of the time.


And the range I set for unknowns in this situation is a very very very educated guess if you want to call it a guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is true, but ur saying that u fold aks 100% of the time in this spot. i just don't believe that is possible even if it is theoretically correct it just seems way off and doesn't account for occasional oddball shtt

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well you set the range that you believe unknowns will have. You are either + or - ev against that range so you should be doing that same thing 100% of the time.


And the range I set for unknowns in this situation is a very very very educated guess if you want to call it a guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is true, but ur saying that u fold aks 100% of the time in this spot. i just don't believe that is possible even if it is theoretically correct it just seems way off and doesn't account for occasional oddball shtt

[/ QUOTE ]


I do fold AK here 100% of the time against an unknown. I have called with reads.


Make it an extra $140 cause 2+2 kept me awake and I saw a few fishies playing. I won't be able to start playing as early tomorrow, but I think it was worth it...gotta go with less sleep tomorrow I guess.

[Lego05]

LOL. I didn't connect these until now. Check out this thread in SSNL that was started tonight:


http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...page=0&amp;vc=1 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=12876232&amp;an=0&amp;page=0&amp;vc= 1)