Does the thought of Hell ever scare an atheist?

[twonine29]

i know most atheists are confident in their belief that there is no God...especially the Christian God.

Does the thought of Hell ever worry you?

What if God really did create the world/create mankind, and decide that each man would have 1 of 2 destines...eternity in bliss or eternity in torment and our time on Earth would determine that. On top of that God decided there would only be one way to spend eternity in bliss(example: Belief in Jesus Christ as your savior). What if we are creations, and we will never cease to exist for the rest of eternity, and the rest of eternity will be spent in one of two places. Doesn't the slight chance that this is possible worry one just a little?

[borisp]

What if there really was a monster in the closet? I mean, cmon, there is some possibility that there is a soul devouring zombie in there. I'll admit it creates the sensation of fear from time to time.

[twonine29]

[ QUOTE ]
What if there really was a monster in the closet? I mean, cmon, there is some possibility that there is a soul devouring zombie in there. I'll admit it creates the sensation of fear from time to time.

[/ QUOTE ]

i anticipated this type of answer, and if u truly believe the two to have equal chance, then no of course you would never fear Hell.

However, Christianity is very prevalent in the world (as well as Islam). If one of these two were actually the correct religion, it would make sense that they are so prevalent. In either case, the end result for those not aligned with God are just horrible to fathom(...eternity...in torment...). But if God does exist, he makes the rules.

[tame_deuces]

Naw, I worry about how to live my life instead. And the term hell is just a bastardization of older religious terms for 'the place souls go to' after death anyway.

Accepting that hell exists is one thing, accepting that linguistical misinterpretations and faulty translations should happen to stumble across the truth by chance is something else completely.

[Case Closed]

I am confused about this hell. I have a bible with me, direct me to the passage that describes hell. Thanks.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
In either case, the end result for those not aligned with God are just horrible to fathom(...eternity...in torment...). But if God does exist, he makes the rules.


[/ QUOTE ]
Nah if gods a bastard it wont make any difference if you're aligned to him or not.

chez

[twonine29]

[ QUOTE ]
Naw, I worry about how to live my life instead

[/ QUOTE ]

eternity is a long time compared to one's life on Earth.

you may just cease to exist when u die...or u may live on for eternity...really could be either one...

[tame_deuces]

Well, bastard religions who stole their religious terms from existing beliefs and changed to suit their needs and continued to change them over the next 2000 years is really the least of my worries when it comes to an afterlife.

[m_the0ry]

No.

I was 12 when I decided hell was an absurd concept. I say this as genuinely as I possibly can: the threat of hell is so empty and meaningless to me that every time I hear it mentioned seriously in conversation I laugh, inside at the very least.

[madnak]

The concept of hell seriously [censored] me up as a kid. There's still some lingering episodic fear, but it's well under control now. I am a hypochondriac and I experience significant anxiety regarding my health - this may be the legacy of hell.

Thankfully, the power of religion to terrorize me gets weaker and weaker as I get older.

[tame_deuces]

[ QUOTE ]
The concept of hell seriously [censored] me up as a kid. There's still some lingering episodic fear, but it's well under control now. I am a hypochondriac and I experience significant anxiety regarding my health - this may be the legacy of hell.

Thankfully, the power of religion to terrorize me gets weaker and weaker as I get older.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a very good point. I'm glad my family (who were Christians) didn't believe in hell, nor did they 'teach' christianity to us kids before we were 15 (we picked up bits and piecesit ofcourse, but there was no 'indoctrination', rituals or christenings or stuff like that).

[Cumulonimbus]

lol no it doesn't scare me at all. does the thought of going to another religion's hell scare you?

[DougShrapnel]

No, The thought of going to heaven does tho. I'm pretty sure that if the xtain god is real. Once in heaven, I'd be all "I didn't sign up for this."

[tame_deuces]

[ QUOTE ]
No, The thought of going to heaven does tho.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heaven is an appealing idea. As long as it is different than those green meadows and uncanny smiling people all over the place as often depicted in christian pamphlets.

I'd really prefer some temper, sex, occasional beer, lots of disagreement and debate, some porn and maybe even a brawl every 3 years just to keep life a little exciting.

[borisp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Naw, I worry about how to live my life instead

[/ QUOTE ]

eternity is a long time compared to one's life on Earth.

you may just cease to exist when u die...or u may live on for eternity...really could be either one...

[/ QUOTE ]
And if you don't potentially exist for eternity, then this attitude is a colossal waste. Seriously, this debate was played out like a century ago.

But good luck in your evangelism. I hear that convincing others of the righteousness of your actions makes you get more virgins in heaven. Someday everyone will act exactly as you want them to!!

[Drag]

Not in the slightest bit. Even if God existed, he should be more clever than intellegent humans. For intellegent humans bible and christanity is such a non-sense, so it should be the same for him/her.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Heaven is an appealing idea. As long as it is different than those green meadows and uncanny smiling people all over the place as often depicted in christian pamphlets.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it beats clouds and harps.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd really prefer some temper, sex, occasional beer, lots of disagreement and debate, some porn and maybe even a brawl every 3 years just to keep life a little exciting.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could always go Norse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla).

[drzen]

The thought of hell doesn't scare me half as much as the thought that there are people out there who claim their god loves us but wants to torture us for eternity. What a [censored]-up idea of love that is!

[drzen]

[ QUOTE ]
Not in the slightest bit. Even if God existed, he should be more clever than intellegent humans. For intellegent humans bible and christanity is such a non-sense, so it should be the same for him/her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you not think it's possible that God can see meaning where you can't? That he can understand things you can't?

The concept of "being intelligent" is meaningless when it comes to God, by the way. It's incredible how little able some "intelligent" people are to conceive, even dimly, of what a transcendent being with infinite qualities would be like.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
what a transcendent being with infinite qualities would be like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever he would be like he would never be the author of the way the world is!

[Drag]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not in the slightest bit. Even if God existed, he should be more clever than intellegent humans. For intellegent humans bible and christanity is such a non-sense, so it should be the same for him/her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you not think it's possible that God can see meaning where you can't? That he can understand things you can't?

The concept of "being intelligent" is meaningless when it comes to God, by the way. It's incredible how little able some "intelligent" people are to conceive, even dimly, of what a transcendent being with infinite qualities would be like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely he could.
I try to make a point, that if we tried to write a new bible nowadays we could make a much better and convincing book. I highly doubt that a being more intellegent than me would make such a bad job 2000 years ago.

If you are trying to argue that there is a deeper meaning in the bible that I can't see. Well, it could be true but I hoghly doubt it. Not on the basis of just that book, though, one needs to take into account other sources.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Does the thought of Hell ever worry you?


[/ QUOTE ]

ROFL! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[evank15]

It worries me not one iota.

I would wager my life this second the Christian "god" does not exist. -EV you say? I suppose, but not really when you invoke the limit concept. This box of kleenex in front of me could be "god" and it could have its own version of hell. I would bet my life it is not "god" either. This wager is -EV in the same sense.

[Case Closed]

[ QUOTE ]
I am confused about this hell. I have a bible with me, direct me to the passage that describes hell. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Any help here? You all seem to have intimate knowledge of this hell place. There must be some interesting passages in the bible that go into depth about this place.

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
Not in the slightest bit. Even if God existed, he should be more clever than intellegent humans. For intellegent humans bible and christanity is such a non-sense, so it should be the same for him/her.

[/ QUOTE ]

tame_deuces : Heaven is an appealing idea. As long as it is different than those green meadows and uncanny smiling people all over the place as often depicted in christian pamphlets.


I've got to wonder if you guys have totally missed the point. When I compare these 2 statements to the purpose of the bible I really suspect you two missed something. If God's purpose is to transcend time he still has to first frame the language of the bible in terms that are relevant to the people of the day in which it is introduced, but at the same time be able to carry over for thousands of years through a huge diversity of cultures and people.

The lives and concerns of the very first Christians were similar to ours in the general sense but extremely different in the particulars of their work and lifestyles.

So God has to put everything in some form that transmits over generations, but at the same time our intellects being human and fallible have trouble in correcting for every difference between those earlier lifestyles and our current modern one.

Thats why people work to understand religious texts today. It has relevance to our lives but we have to pick out the passage and understand the whole context of the passage. We can't take passages out of context as alot of people do when arguing against Christians.

So much has been obscured by time and our current culture is so less receptive to religion that there are several passages in the New Testament that say that later generations who can get the bible are more blessed than earlier ones. God had already anticipated that we would have more challenges to our understanding and more temptations then earlier people did.

[Drag]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not in the slightest bit. Even if God existed, he should be more clever than intellegent humans. For intellegent humans bible and christanity is such a non-sense, so it should be the same for him/her.

[/ QUOTE ]

tame_deuces : Heaven is an appealing idea. As long as it is different than those green meadows and uncanny smiling people all over the place as often depicted in christian pamphlets.


I've got to wonder if you guys have totally missed the point. When I compare these 2 statements to the purpose of the bible I really suspect you two missed something. If God's purpose is to transcend time he still has to first frame the language of the bible in terms that are relevant to the people of the day in which it is introduced, but at the same time be able to carry over for thousands of years through a huge diversity of cultures and people.

The lives and concerns of the very first Christians were similar to ours in the general sense but extremely different in the particulars of their work and lifestyles.

So God has to put everything in some form that transmits over generations, but at the same time our intellects being human and fallible have trouble in correcting for every difference between those earlier lifestyles and our current modern one.

Thats why people work to understand religious texts today. It has relevance to our lives but we have to pick out the passage and understand the whole context of the passage. We can't take passages out of context as alot of people do when arguing against Christians.

So much has been obscured by time and our current culture is so less receptive to religion that there are several passages in the New Testament that say that later generations who can get the bible are more blessed than earlier ones. God had already anticipated that we would have more challenges to our understanding and more temptations then earlier people did.

[/ QUOTE ]

You basically saying that god couldn't write his message better. I am being infinitely less intlegent than him can think of a dozen ways to do it, and he couldn't. That's strange...

For example, write a version for each time. Like after the year 1500, humans will be able to understand more of my word and should take a new version of the bible. After the year 1854 the dinosaurus bones should be considered differently, etc. And that's just one way of making such a job.

He could send new prophets with the new versions after each majour change in human culture, or even better before it.

Why such a cryptic way?

May be because, people who heard voices in their head just simply heard their own voices and wrote their own thoughts. This way the story becomes much more logical and consistent.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am confused about this hell. I have a bible with me, direct me to the passage that describes hell. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Any help here? You all seem to have intimate knowledge of this hell place. There must be some interesting passages in the bible that go into depth about this place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing in-depth. Just eternal fire.

Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

9:44 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;'

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.

20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

[Lestat]

No offense, but it's a silly question. If someone can't get themselves to believe there's a god, they're certainly not going to believe there's a hell. Why should it be of any concern whatsoever?

[Splendour]

Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,


Why would you interpret this literally? Don't you see the poetic drama with a purpose in this language? It is meant to draw a mental picture. Have you taken these passages out of content? You usually can't examine a biblical message by a line or two.

This is inspired writing you are taking out of context.

An excerpt:

many Christians believe that inspiration should be described as thought-for-thought rather than word-for-word. The human writers provide God’s message in terms of their own personalities and historical circumstances, and yet they transmit the message fully and exactly as God desired. So we can call this view of inspiration “dynamic”, as well as “verbal” (extending to the very words of the writer) and “plenary” (meaning that the Bible is fully and totally inspired.)

There's a third view of inspiration, too. This view asserts that the writers of the Bible were indeed inspired, but so were many great artists, musicians, and authors. Some superhuman, transcendent, divine aura possessed them and they produced works of sheer genius.

Excerpt from: http://www.ibs.org/bibles/about/5.php

[twonine29]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Naw, I worry about how to live my life instead

[/ QUOTE ]

eternity is a long time compared to one's life on Earth.

you may just cease to exist when u die...or u may live on for eternity...really could be either one...

[/ QUOTE ]
And if you don't potentially exist for eternity, then this attitude is a colossal waste. Seriously, this debate was played out like a century ago.

But good luck in your evangelism. I hear that convincing others of the righteousness of your actions makes you get more virgins in heaven. Someday everyone will act exactly as you want them to!!

[/ QUOTE ]

No evangelism...just asking an honest human question: if one's fears an eternal afterlife, even in the slightest. I agree, I'm scared about the simple idea of living for eternity w/no end, never being able to cease to exist. But if that's the way it is...I'd be even more worried of eternity in hell.

[Splendour]

Drag: You basically saying that god couldn't write his message better. I am being infinitely less intlegent than him can think of a dozen ways to do it, and he couldn't. That's strange...

For example, write a version for each time. Like after the year 1500, humans will be able to understand more of my word and should take a new version of the bible. After the year 1854 the dinosaurus bones should be considered differently, etc. And that's just one way of making such a job.

He could send new prophets with the new versions after each majour change in human culture, or even better before it.

Why such a cryptic way?

May be because, people who heard voices in their head just simply heard their own voices and wrote their own thoughts. This way the story becomes much more logical and consistent.


Well you're trying to make God fit or do what you want him to do.

Quote: "I am being infinitely less intlegent than him can think of a dozen ways to do it, and he couldn't. That's strange..."

Who are we to question God's ways? He has a deeper insight and higher purposes than we do. We exist inside his realm of control. He doesn't exist inside our realm of control. God gives free will to make us free beings. Its funny that people turn out to be the control freaks.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you interpret this literally?

[/ QUOTE ]

I interpret it as fiction. But many Christians interpret it literally. And many Christians are gleeful at the notion of people being tortured forever.

[Splendour]

One of the messages of the bible is that temptation is through the flesh. That is why there are these flamboyant ideas of plucking eyes out rather than giving offense. It is a poetic device to exaggerate to get across the idea that some temptations are evil. Maybe this is why scientists find the bible so irrational. Scientists as a group understand the purpose of inspired language less than other groups of people.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Well you're trying to make God fit or do what you want him to do.


[/ QUOTE ]

He's trying to make God fit remotely with the way he's described. Only true believers have no problem with the fact that the infinitely intelligent God they believe in is grossly incompetent. It doesn't take make for anyone with a lick of sense to conceive of a God smarter and more competent then the Biblical one.

[ QUOTE ]
Who are we to question God's ways?

[/ QUOTE ]

If there was a God, and he granted people with brains, he would want people to use them. Its only rational. Its really hard to consider a God so incompetent that he would design humans to be intelligent and questioning but NOT want them to question the fact that he makes no sense.

[ QUOTE ]
He has a deeper insight and higher purposes than we do.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he had deeper insight then he would be more competent. You have too make up ridiculous excuses for him to justify the fact that he's not that deep at all.

[ QUOTE ]
Its funny that people turn out to be the control freaks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder if this even makes sense to you? Or if you just type random things and don't concern yourself with sense.

[twonine29]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you interpret this literally?

[/ QUOTE ]

I interpret it as fiction. But many Christians interpret it literally. And many Christians are gleeful at the notion of people being tortured forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of Christians truly believe in Hell and hate the thought of it...which is why there's some Christians who spend their lives trying to "save" others, because they are sickened by the punishment, but believe it to be true.

I hope Hell doesn't exist. I hope we are supposed to read the parts in the Bible describing Hell allegorically and not literally. And that there will be no literal place of eternal torment. I can't even fathom how Heaven would be so perfect if one had the knowledge of others suffering in Hell.

But again...God makes the rules. If God exists and is in control, than all we can do is pray for His mercy.

[Lestat]

Simple question:

Do you believe that the god you worship sends people to a place where they are to suffer for eternity, or not?

[twonine29]

kurto...read u're reply.

then looked at u're post count, 666(4). loc: in your heart.

coming from someone who did a lot of psychedelics, i see less coincidences and more meanings.

[tame_deuces]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not in the slightest bit. Even if God existed, he should be more clever than intellegent humans. For intellegent humans bible and christanity is such a non-sense, so it should be the same for him/her.

[/ QUOTE ]

tame_deuces : Heaven is an appealing idea. As long as it is different than those green meadows and uncanny smiling people all over the place as often depicted in christian pamphlets.


I've got to wonder if you guys have totally missed the point. When I compare these 2 statements to the purpose of the bible I really suspect you two missed something. If God's purpose is to transcend time he still has to first frame the language of the bible in terms that are relevant to the people of the day in which it is introduced, but at the same time be able to carry over for thousands of years through a huge diversity of cultures and people.

The lives and concerns of the very first Christians were similar to ours in the general sense but extremely different in the particulars of their work and lifestyles.

So God has to put everything in some form that transmits over generations, but at the same time our intellects being human and fallible have trouble in correcting for every difference between those earlier lifestyles and our current modern one.

Thats why people work to understand religious texts today. It has relevance to our lives but we have to pick out the passage and understand the whole context of the passage. We can't take passages out of context as alot of people do when arguing against Christians.

So much has been obscured by time and our current culture is so less receptive to religion that there are several passages in the New Testament that say that later generations who can get the bible are more blessed than earlier ones. God had already anticipated that we would have more challenges to our understanding and more temptations then earlier people did.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know the bible exceptionally well, thank you very much. And I am well versed in its context, passages, meaning and problems of historical/linguistic/cultural context and about its different versions. Much more so than the the majority of theists I have ever met. My mother's family were devout Christians, my father was an author, linguist and culture historian; suffice to say whatever bible studies I did (voluntary) were of pretty damn good quality.

I have also studied a wide variety of subjects in my life (maths, physics, computer science, sociology and a degree in org. psychology) and have personal interest in the fields of linguistics, history and cultural studies.

I can with unbridled arrogance assure you I didn't miss much.

Seriously, if the description of Christian hell is properly translated is even debatable, much points to it not being so and that the accounts of hell in the Christian bible are way off compared to how they should be.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Naw, I worry about how to live my life instead

[/ QUOTE ]

eternity is a long time compared to one's life on Earth.

you may just cease to exist when u die...or u may live on for eternity...really could be either one...

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, flip a coin huh?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not in the slightest bit. Even if God existed, he should be more clever than intellegent humans. For intellegent humans bible and christanity is such a non-sense, so it should be the same for him/her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you not think it's possible that God can see meaning where you can't? That he can understand things you can't?

The concept of "being intelligent" is meaningless when it comes to God, by the way. It's incredible how little able some "intelligent" people are to conceive, even dimly, of what a transcendent being with infinite qualities would be like.

[/ QUOTE ]

As opposed to your second-level complete, 100% incapability to imagine what that would be like.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you interpret this literally?

[/ QUOTE ]

I interpret it as fiction. But many Christians interpret it literally. And many Christians are gleeful at the notion of people being tortured forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of Christians truly believe in Hell and hate the thought of it...which is why there's some Christians who spend their lives trying to "save" others, because they are sickened by the punishment, but believe it to be true.

I hope Hell doesn't exist. I hope we are supposed to read the parts in the Bible describing Hell allegorically and not literally. And that there will be no literal place of eternal torment. I can't even fathom how Heaven would be so perfect if one had the knowledge of others suffering in Hell.

But again...God makes the rules. If God exists and is in control, than all we can do is pray for His mercy.

[/ QUOTE ]

What POSSIBLE allegorical meaning to burning in fire for eternity could there be? I'm genuinely interested. It seems like some Christians just shout "Allegory!" or "METAPHOR!!!" whenever there is some horrible part of the Bible that they really dont like. What is the allegory here? What POSSIBLE reality could be depicted by this metaphor? Eternal seems to pretty much mean eternal...its not exactly a metaphor or euphemism.

[Splendour]

I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough in my post. I went off on a tangent. I wasn't addressing the hell question the OP posted. I was simply expressing my amazement at the lack of respect for the number of diverse elements that the bible has to deal with. Not to mention its time, space and prophetic dimensions as well as the various levels of intellects it addresses, not just IQ levels, not just cultures, but from kids to the elderly.

Btw, if you really did study the bible as thorougly as you contend how come you never arrived at the conclusion that arrogance could get in the way of understanding?

Arrogance often gets in the way of any study whether its a biblical or completely non-biblical one.

The ironic thing is that intelligent people have the better intellects to wrestle with the bible, but it appears many of them don't want to. Maybe God is even more concerned with our emotions than our intellects. He is all about spirit after all.

Its hard to impress God with brains since he already cornered the market on it, but he just might have made us for worship and companionship. That requires a better emotional being not an intellectual being.

[twonine29]

[ QUOTE ]
Simple question:

Do you believe that the god you worship sends people to a place where they are to suffer for eternity, or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe in God, and i pray that He doesn't send anyone to suffer for eternity. but who am i? a nobody.

eh. i just wanted to know if any atheists ever had the slight fear of eternal Hell. I was agnostic/atheist till I was 19. Now I'm 23 and a Christian.

Even so, i still contemplate other possibilities, like what if everyone who didn't give their soul away gets to be "free" for eternity while those who gave their souls away are slaves.

i think the fact that there's even something instead of nothing at all is mind-blowing.

[bluesbassman]

[ QUOTE ]
i know most atheists are confident in their belief that there is no God...especially the Christian God.

Does the thought of Hell ever worry you?



[/ QUOTE ]

Nowhere near the degree to which people who are worried about going to Hell, worry me.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
Btw, if you really did study the bible as thorougly as you contend how come you never arrived at the conclusion that arrogance could get in the way of understanding?

[/ QUOTE ]

arrogance is a much bigger obstacle to those of lower intelligence. while the more intelligent may "come off" with an air of superiority, they tend to have a much better understanding of their own competence.

[ QUOTE ]
The ironic thing is that intelligent people have the better intellects to wrestle with the bible, but it appears many of them don't want to.

[/ QUOTE ]

intelligent people have a better understanding of what sort of things are worth wrestling with.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe God is even more concerned with our emotions than our intellects. He is all about spirit after all. Its hard to impress God with brains since he already cornered the market on it, but he just might have made us for worship and companionship. That requires a better emotional being not an intellectual being.

[/ QUOTE ]

if there weren't a corner for you to run to, we wouldn't be here.

[tame_deuces]

[ QUOTE ]


Btw, if you really did study the bible as thorougly as you contend how come you never arrived at the conclusion that arrogance could get in the way of understanding?

Arrogance often gets in the way of any study whether its a biblical or completely non-biblical one.


[/ QUOTE ]

I did, but that understanding went the other way. I understand and liked that good science is humble to the effect that it accepts alternate explanations and seeks to understand if they hold true.

Science doesn't claim the ultimate answer, so there isn't the calm security that religion offered - as many things will go unanswered. But the (good) bits of science are devoid of the religious arrogance of laying absolute claim to answers.

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am confused about this hell. I have a bible with me, direct me to the passage that describes hell. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Any help here? You all seem to have intimate knowledge of this hell place. There must be some interesting passages in the bible that go into depth about this place.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know how to use Google right??

Also, aside from quoting a bunch of scripture that may or may not help you, try reading Luke 16:19-31.

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you interpret this literally?

[/ QUOTE ]

I interpret it as fiction. But many Christians interpret it literally. And many Christians are gleeful at the notion of people being tortured forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of Christians truly believe in Hell and hate the thought of it...which is why there's some Christians who spend their lives trying to "save" others, because they are sickened by the punishment, but believe it to be true.

I hope Hell doesn't exist. I hope we are supposed to read the parts in the Bible describing Hell allegorically and not literally. And that there will be no literal place of eternal torment. I can't even fathom how Heaven would be so perfect if one had the knowledge of others suffering in Hell.

But again...God makes the rules. If God exists and is in control, than all we can do is pray for His mercy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell is a real place & you need to accept the fact that there will be people spending eternity there. Jesus taught more about hell than he did heaven.

Christians are not 'gleeful' about nonbelievers going there...why do you think we go through the effort of trying convert the rest of the world??

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i know most atheists are confident in their belief that there is no God...especially the Christian God.

Does the thought of Hell ever worry you?



[/ QUOTE ]

Nowhere near the degree to which people who are worried about going to Hell, worry me.

[/ QUOTE ]

The ironic thing is I never heard this worry about hell come up among Christians as much as it does with the atheists on this forum. I'm sure Christians are bound to consider it, but most that I know focus on the love and redemption. I know I noticed hell but in a passing sort of way. It seems like its something that either non-Christians or non-believers obsess over. I always knew God was good so I focus on respecting him.

Are people focusing on hell because they fear something in their own lives? I know there's a hell. I just focus more on pleasing God and trying to understand what pleases him is enough to do without obsessing over hell.

Fearing hell so much that you refuse to believe in it? That prevents you from doing whats pleasing to God. It must be a trick of the devil.

An excerpt:

Satan’s opening volley was not a blistering attack on God; it was a simply a question that he wanted Eve to think about. “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden?’” (Genesis 3:1). Actually, God had said that she could eat of every tree but one. But Satan twisted the facts to suit his purposes and to lead Eve’s mind to the conclusion that God was not the generous God she had known Him to be, but rather a stingy, restrictive, joy killer. Once she had let her heart drift to the wrong conclusion, it was easy for her to believe Satan’s lie that God just wanted to keep her from being as knowledgeable as He is and that the threat of them dying was just God’s way of scaring them into compliance with His stingy ways.

Satan still sets us adrift by planting doubt about God’s Word and spinning the facts to his own evil advantage.

Once we begin to suspect God instead of trusting Him, we inevitably drift away from Him. So, beware! Your life is full of scenarios where Satan can put his deceitful twist on your experiences. He is the spin-doctor of hell, and as Jesus said, “When [Satan] lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies” John 8:44

http://www.rbc.org/bible_study/strength_for_the_journey/daily/57222.aspx

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i know most atheists are confident in their belief that there is no God...especially the Christian God.

Does the thought of Hell ever worry you?



[/ QUOTE ]

Nowhere near the degree to which people who are worried about going to Hell, worry me.

[/ QUOTE ]

The ironic thing is I never heard this worry about hell come up among Christians as much as it does with the atheists on this forum. I'm sure Christians are bound to consider it, but most that I know focus on the love and redemption. I know I noticed hell but in a passing sort of way. It seems like its something that either non-Christians or non-believers obsess over. I always knew God was good so I focus on respecting him.

Are people focusing on hell because they fear something in their own lives? I know there's a hell. I just focus more on pleasing God and trying to understand what pleases him is enough to do without obsessing over hell.

Fearing hell so much that you refuse to believe in it? That prevents you from doing whats pleasing to God. It must be a trick of the devil.

An excerpt:

Satan’s opening volley was not a blistering attack on God; it was a simply a question that he wanted Eve to think about. “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden?’” (Genesis 3:1). Actually, God had said that she could eat of every tree but one. But Satan twisted the facts to suit his purposes and to lead Eve’s mind to the conclusion that God was not the generous God she had known Him to be, but rather a stingy, restrictive, joy killer. Once she had let her heart drift to the wrong conclusion, it was easy for her to believe Satan’s lie that God just wanted to keep her from being as knowledgeable as He is and that the threat of them dying was just God’s way of scaring them into compliance with His stingy ways.

Satan still sets us adrift by planting doubt about God’s Word and spinning the facts to his own evil advantage.

Once we begin to suspect God instead of trusting Him, we inevitably drift away from Him. So, beware! Your life is full of scenarios where Satan can put his deceitful twist on your experiences. He is the spin-doctor of hell, and as Jesus said, “When [Satan] lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies” John 8:44

http://www.rbc.org/bible_study/strength_for_the_journey/daily/57222.aspx

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is weird that a bunch of people who are obscenely sure they arent going to be the ones going to Hell dont worry so much about it, and the people who are constantly told that they WILL be going to Hell and burning there for eternity and that this is the most perfect, just, glorious thing imaginable, are more worried about it.

That is funny. Ha. Ha.

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Btw, if you really did study the bible as thorougly as you contend how come you never arrived at the conclusion that arrogance could get in the way of understanding?

Arrogance often gets in the way of any study whether its a biblical or completely non-biblical one.


[/ QUOTE ]

I did, but that understanding went the other way. I understand and liked that good science is humble to the effect that it accepts alternate explanations and seeks to understand if they hold true.

Science doesn't claim the ultimate answer, so there isn't the calm security that religion offered - as many things will go unanswered. But the (good) bits of science are devoid of the religious arrogance of laying absolute claim to answers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well be like Newton. Have your cake and eat it too. Don't set science up as your God. Keep them separate. God never said you couldn't have science. He lets us be the beneficiaries of science.

The problem a lot of scientists have is they stay too busy. Take Newton. Its said he couldn't rest until he'd solved a problem. He once solved a math problem in an afternoon that the rest of Europe had been wrestling with for months. Eventually he retired from from the math/science side to study prophecy more. He knew it was important. I mean this is the father of calculus putting God first. Its just sometimes we stay too busy. That's how you miss God in all the "to and fro" of the devil. The devil likes to keep us too busy to notice what's going on. I know talking about the devil is crazy, it took me years to get my mind around him.

[hitch1978]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you interpret this literally?

[/ QUOTE ]

I interpret it as fiction. But many Christians interpret it literally. And many Christians are gleeful at the notion of people being tortured forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of Christians truly believe in Hell and hate the thought of it...which is why there's some Christians who spend their lives trying to "save" others, because they are sickened by the punishment, but believe it to be true.

I hope Hell doesn't exist. I hope we are supposed to read the parts in the Bible describing Hell allegorically and not literally. And that there will be no literal place of eternal torment. I can't even fathom how Heaven would be so perfect if one had the knowledge of others suffering in Hell.

But again...God makes the rules. If God exists and is in control, than all we can do is pray for His mercy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell is NOT a real place & you need to accept the fact that there will NOT be people spending eternity there.

Christians are not 'gleeful' about being the only ones to believe such nonsense ...why do you think we go through the effort of trying convert the rest of the world??

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[Mr_Moore]

Just shout "ridiculous" and it disappears.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Its hard to impress God with brains since he already cornered the market on it, but he just might have made us for worship and companionship. That requires a better emotional being not an intellectual being.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is fantastic. Keep up the good work.

[tame_deuces]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you interpret this literally?

[/ QUOTE ]

I interpret it as fiction. But many Christians interpret it literally. And many Christians are gleeful at the notion of people being tortured forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of Christians truly believe in Hell and hate the thought of it...which is why there's some Christians who spend their lives trying to "save" others, because they are sickened by the punishment, but believe it to be true.

I hope Hell doesn't exist. I hope we are supposed to read the parts in the Bible describing Hell allegorically and not literally. And that there will be no literal place of eternal torment. I can't even fathom how Heaven would be so perfect if one had the knowledge of others suffering in Hell.

But again...God makes the rules. If God exists and is in control, than all we can do is pray for His mercy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell is NOT a real place & you need to accept the fact that there will NOT be people spending eternity there.

Christians are not 'gleeful' about being the only ones to believe such nonsense ...why do you think we go through the effort of trying convert the rest of the world??

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

And it is also cool to know that Brad forget to mention there are versions of Christianity that don't accept the existence of hell (as in the eternal torment thing at least).

[Hopey]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem a lot of scientists have is they stay too busy.

[/ QUOTE ]

So scientists tend to be atheists...because they're too busy performing science?

[ QUOTE ]
The devil likes to keep us too busy to notice what's going on.

[/ QUOTE ]

And to think that we've always been told that "idle hands are the devil's playthings". Turns out we've been wrong all along. Splendour of the SMP forum has set us all straight.

[kurto]

Her trolling is tiresome.

[ QUOTE ]
The ironic thing is I never heard this worry about hell come up among Christians as much as it does with the atheists on this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm... it was brought up by a Christian.

Second... the layers of delusion. Christianity use the threat of the stick. I was raised Christian (Lutheran). And we were all taught the implicit threat of hell. I must have had a really unique upbringing to feel that it was constantly reinforced in us that people who didn't follow were going to hell.

[ QUOTE ]
Are people focusing on hell because they fear something in their own lives?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't count but I'd guess that most people in this thread pointed out that they don't focus on hell because they don't believe it. And that the concept is ridiculous.

[ QUOTE ]
Fearing hell so much that you refuse to believe in it? That prevents you from doing whats pleasing to God. It must be a trick of the devil.


[/ QUOTE ]

And then it turns comic.

[kevin017]

the thought of hell never worries me. its not as though i sit around all day thinking about religion. i decided religion didn't do it for me, and now i rarely think about it at all unless asked.

to me, the weirder thing is, you really believe that you're going to exist eternally in some form that is totally unknowable to us? you're going to some eternal heaven where everything will be amazing, forever? i bet mr. francis would sell you a ticket there for a small money order. the idea of life after death in some alternate form is so bizzare and unknowable to me that entertaining the idea before i see it for myself just seems silly.

[tame_deuces]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Btw, if you really did study the bible as thorougly as you contend how come you never arrived at the conclusion that arrogance could get in the way of understanding?

Arrogance often gets in the way of any study whether its a biblical or completely non-biblical one.


[/ QUOTE ]

I did, but that understanding went the other way. I understand and liked that good science is humble to the effect that it accepts alternate explanations and seeks to understand if they hold true.

Science doesn't claim the ultimate answer, so there isn't the calm security that religion offered - as many things will go unanswered. But the (good) bits of science are devoid of the religious arrogance of laying absolute claim to answers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well be like Newton. Have your cake and eat it too. Don't set science up as your God. Keep them separate. God never said you couldn't have science. He lets us be the beneficiaries of science.

The problem a lot of scientists have is they stay too busy. Take Newton. Its said he couldn't rest until he'd solved a problem. He once solved a math problem in an afternoon that the rest of Europe had been wrestling with for months. Eventually he retired from from the math/science side to study prophecy more. He knew it was important. I mean this is the father of calculus putting God first. Its just sometimes we stay too busy. That's how you miss God in all the "to and fro" of the devil. The devil likes to keep us too busy to notice what's going on. I know talking about the devil is crazy, it took me years to get my mind around him.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the original scriptures that ultimately lead to modern day Christianity the devil is simply part of God's court and can't act alone - his task is simply to test the beliefs and practices of believers (the story of Job is the classic example), so I really question to what extent 'the devil' can be a important belief to grasp for a Christian.

As for being religious, I don't mind your comments, but I like being an atheist. Looking for answers and accepting the unknown seems more spiritual to me than having it all in a big black book.

Religion is intriguing to study and debate on ocassion, but I'm not follower material.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its hard to impress God with brains since he already cornered the market on it, but he just might have made us for worship and companionship. That requires a better emotional being not an intellectual being.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is fantastic. Keep up the good work.

[/ QUOTE ]

God is clearly an emotional cripple.

[hitch1978]

[ QUOTE ]
Her trolling is tiresome.



[/ QUOTE ]

Serious question - How do we define Troll?

I ask because I genuinely think that Splendour is being (In her head) rational.

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem a lot of scientists have is they stay too busy.

[/ QUOTE ]

So scientists tend to be atheists...because they're too busy performing science?

[ QUOTE ]
The devil likes to keep us too busy to notice what's going on.

[/ QUOTE ]

And to think that we've always been told that "idle hands are the devil's playthings". Turns out we've been wrong all along. Splendour of the SMP forum has set us all straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow nice thinking Hopester. There's hope for you yet (pun intended). You might just have discovered a parallel. If we're idle the devil plays us and if we don't take a day off for God.i.e. Sunday (to worship and pray) then we can't connect with God. You're a parallel genius!

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you interpret this literally?

[/ QUOTE ]

I interpret it as fiction. But many Christians interpret it literally. And many Christians are gleeful at the notion of people being tortured forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of Christians truly believe in Hell and hate the thought of it...which is why there's some Christians who spend their lives trying to "save" others, because they are sickened by the punishment, but believe it to be true.

I hope Hell doesn't exist. I hope we are supposed to read the parts in the Bible describing Hell allegorically and not literally. And that there will be no literal place of eternal torment. I can't even fathom how Heaven would be so perfect if one had the knowledge of others suffering in Hell.

But again...God makes the rules. If God exists and is in control, than all we can do is pray for His mercy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell is NOT a real place & you need to accept the fact that there will NOT be people spending eternity there.

Christians are not 'gleeful' about being the only ones to believe such nonsense ...why do you think we go through the effort of trying convert the rest of the world??

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

And it is also cool to know that Brad forget to mention there are versions of Christianity that don't accept the existence of hell (as in the eternal torment thing at least).

[/ QUOTE ]

They're in for a surprise.

[Hopey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Her trolling is tiresome.



[/ QUOTE ]

Serious question - How do we define Troll?

I ask because I genuinely think that Splendour is being (In her head) rational.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. I think she just has too much time on her hands and thinks she's doing the "lord's work" by spreading the Good News on 2+2.

[Hopey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem a lot of scientists have is they stay too busy.

[/ QUOTE ]

So scientists tend to be atheists...because they're too busy performing science?

[ QUOTE ]
The devil likes to keep us too busy to notice what's going on.

[/ QUOTE ]

And to think that we've always been told that "idle hands are the devil's playthings". Turns out we've been wrong all along. Splendour of the SMP forum has set us all straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow nice thinking Hopester. There's hope for you yet (pun intended). You might just have discovered a parallel. If we're idle the devil plays us and if we don't take a day off for God.i.e. Sunday (to worship and pray) then we can't connect with God. You're a parallel genius!

[/ QUOTE ]

So we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. That about sums up Christianity, actually.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you interpret this literally?

[/ QUOTE ]

I interpret it as fiction. But many Christians interpret it literally. And many Christians are gleeful at the notion of people being tortured forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of Christians truly believe in Hell and hate the thought of it...which is why there's some Christians who spend their lives trying to "save" others, because they are sickened by the punishment, but believe it to be true.

I hope Hell doesn't exist. I hope we are supposed to read the parts in the Bible describing Hell allegorically and not literally. And that there will be no literal place of eternal torment. I can't even fathom how Heaven would be so perfect if one had the knowledge of others suffering in Hell.

But again...God makes the rules. If God exists and is in control, than all we can do is pray for His mercy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell is NOT a real place & you need to accept the fact that there will NOT be people spending eternity there.

Christians are not 'gleeful' about being the only ones to believe such nonsense ...why do you think we go through the effort of trying convert the rest of the world??

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

And it is also cool to know that Brad forget to mention there are versions of Christianity that don't accept the existence of hell (as in the eternal torment thing at least).

[/ QUOTE ]

They're in for a surprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which you cannot know. Cool.

[Hopey]

[ QUOTE ]
They're in for a surprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, because your little religious sect is right, and the billions of humans that don't believe what you do are wrong. Sounds reasonable.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Her trolling is tiresome.



[/ QUOTE ]

Serious question - How do we define Troll?

I ask because I genuinely think that Splendour is being (In her head) rational.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that what makes someone a troll is somewhat subjective. Some criteria- posting stuff just to annoy or get a reaction. Spamming.

Regarding her- I sometimes legitimately don't believe she can be serious about what she posts. She constantly posts huge text excerpts and links, but often refuses to discuss them. She goes off on weird tangents, (but recently asked others not to do the same thing to her thread.) She goes in ridiculous circles. She seems inconsistantly obtuse (she's obtuse when its convenient, I suppose). Though asked not to, it often seems everything is just an excuse to evangelize. She constantly misrepresents information in the thread she's in...

It certainly is possible that she's just some goofy meandering true believer... but I think she seems a little inconsistant. I really get the impression she's feigning ignorance at times.

Honestly, I think she's one of the worst (meaning senseless, infuriating) Christian apologists this forum has ever had. If someone wanted to make a caricature of a goofy theist it would look like her. She makes txag seem like a rocket scientist.

I HOPE she's a troll because that's actually more comforting a thought.

Sorry for the rant. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They're in for a surprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, because your little religious sect is right, and the billions of humans that don't believe what you do are wrong. Sounds reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]


Matthew 7:13-15

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They're in for a surprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, because your little religious sect is right, and the billions of humans that don't believe what you do are wrong. Sounds reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]


Matthew 7:13-15

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I know, you are so boned.

[tame_deuces]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you interpret this literally?

[/ QUOTE ]

I interpret it as fiction. But many Christians interpret it literally. And many Christians are gleeful at the notion of people being tortured forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of Christians truly believe in Hell and hate the thought of it...which is why there's some Christians who spend their lives trying to "save" others, because they are sickened by the punishment, but believe it to be true.

I hope Hell doesn't exist. I hope we are supposed to read the parts in the Bible describing Hell allegorically and not literally. And that there will be no literal place of eternal torment. I can't even fathom how Heaven would be so perfect if one had the knowledge of others suffering in Hell.

But again...God makes the rules. If God exists and is in control, than all we can do is pray for His mercy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell is NOT a real place & you need to accept the fact that there will NOT be people spending eternity there.

Christians are not 'gleeful' about being the only ones to believe such nonsense ...why do you think we go through the effort of trying convert the rest of the world??

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

And it is also cool to know that Brad forget to mention there are versions of Christianity that don't accept the existence of hell (as in the eternal torment thing at least).

[/ QUOTE ]

They're in for a surprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you suggesting that it is necessary for a devout Christian to believe in hell in order to not go to hell?

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Matthew 7:13-15

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are saying that God created a race where he knew the majority of them wouldn't follow his directions and they would be burned in eternal fire?

How is this a loving God? He sounds absolutely psychotic.

[Hopey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They're in for a surprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, because your little religious sect is right, and the billions of humans that don't believe what you do are wrong. Sounds reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]


Matthew 7:13-15

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

[/ QUOTE ]

But how can you be so sure that your sect has "found it"? You suffer from the same arrogance that most of the theists on this board suffer from -- you think that you are capable of deciphering what is required to curry favour with god -- and that billions of other humans on this planet are less capable than you are in this endeavour.

[bocablkr]

Not even for a 1/google of a second.

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They're in for a surprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, because your little religious sect is right, and the billions of humans that don't believe what you do are wrong. Sounds reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]


Matthew 7:13-15

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

[/ QUOTE ]

But how can you be so sure that your sect has "found it"? You suffer from the same arrogance that most of the theists on this board suffer from -- you think that you are capable of deciphering what is required to curry favour with god -- and that billions of other humans on this planet are less capable than you are in this endeavour.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I guess we're in agreement then, huh?

[bluesbassman]

[ QUOTE ]
Not even for a 1/google of a second.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's probably impossible to think about *anything* for that small a time period, considering that it's much less than one planck time.

[bocablkr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not even for a 1/google of a second.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's probably impossible to think about *anything* for that small a time period, considering that it's much less than one planck time.

[/ QUOTE ]

My way of saying I have never thought about it at all.

[CORed]

It doesn't worry me. I will be greatly surprised if there is any sort of afterlife. Besides, none of the descriptions of the Christian heaven I've read really sounds like a place where I'd want to spend eternity. The traditional Christian view of the afterlife strikes me as a choice between eternal torture and eternal boredom, so, If the Christians are right, I'm pretty much screwed either way.

Now, the Muslim heaven, with lots of virgins to deflower, sounds a little more interesting, but not if I have to fly a plane into a building to get there.

[Case Closed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am confused about this hell. I have a bible with me, direct me to the passage that describes hell. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Any help here? You all seem to have intimate knowledge of this hell place. There must be some interesting passages in the bible that go into depth about this place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing in-depth. Just eternal fire.

Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

9:44 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;'

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.

20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

[/ QUOTE ]
So, all we know about hell is that there are worms and people who have joined satan and a lake of fire. That's not really that bad IMO. I never saw satan sacrifice his own child for a mistake he made. I am more afraid of going to heaven and hanging out with this God character.

Although I am more of an atheist. While these myths are good fun I don't think I am going to die and go to a lake of fire or a place of clouds. For that matter when I die I know I have no shot at coming back as Case Closed the White. I don't worry about stories.

[hitch1978]

I just made myself LOL.

I had a vision of most of us posters in the firey pit of hell, being a'turtured and a-chastised like after class detention, and discussing with each other -

"I can't believe it."
"I know, me too."
"What was he thinking?"
"Guess we'll never know."
"I mean serioulsy, Brad and Splendour were right all along. Who'd have thought it?"
"At least he seperated them out, I mean, Imagine if they were here too, now THEN this place would really start earning it's name...."

[David Sklansky]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What if there really was a monster in the closet? I mean, cmon, there is some possibility that there is a soul devouring zombie in there. I'll admit it creates the sensation of fear from time to time.

[/ QUOTE ]

i anticipated this type of answer, and if u truly believe the two to have equal chance, then no of course you would never fear Hell.

However, Christianity is very prevalent in the world (as well as Islam). If one of these two were actually the correct religion, it would make sense that they are so prevalent. In either case, the end result for those not aligned with God are just horrible to fathom(...eternity...in torment...). But if God does exist, he makes the rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about atheists. But I do know that most flavors of Christians should be very worried about going to hell. Because they have banked on one path when there are obviously at least two other possibilities that as you say, are very prevalent. One is Islam. If Christians are right that God needs you to believe something specific to go to heaven than they are less than even money if the "prevalent" thought has merit.

And what about if they are wrong about God's wishes? What if God's main concerns are how you conduct yourselves? That is also a reasonable idea, unlike monsters in the closet. And if its true, the clean living atheist or Jew will have a lot less to worry about than the Christian who is banking on mere belief.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, the Muslim heaven, with lots of virgins to deflower, sounds a little more interesting

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, virgins suck. Repeat after me, "virgins suck." And no, that's not what I mean. I mean, virgins don't suck. See what I mean?

[mickeyg13]

[ QUOTE ]

i think the fact that there's even something instead of nothing at all is mind-blowing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, and I that question is (or should be?) equally troubling for theists and atheists alike. Science can come up with some great solutions for how things work starting at a fraction of a second after the Big Bang occurred. Asking for what caused the Big Bang is more troublesome. Theists can only slightly get around this question, because essentially the question is answered by stating that God created the universe and started the Big Bang (or whatever other Creation story). This of course leads to asking where God came from, a question usually answered with such statements as "He always has existed." I don't feel very comfortable with any of the choices, but I'm slightly more comfortable accepting that an omnipotent being could have always existed (being omnipotent and all).

Sometimes when pondering this question I feel like surely the universe must not exist...

[mbillie1]

The only thing about hell that worries me is that some people still believe in it.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now, the Muslim heaven, with lots of virgins to deflower, sounds a little more interesting

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, virgins suck. Repeat after me, "virgins suck." And no, that's not what I mean. I mean, virgins don't suck. See what I mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a certain cachet...

[Archon_Wing]

There are many scary things that can and will happen. I would say I would have to be concerned about the ones more likely to happen first.

[twonine29]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i think the fact that there's even something instead of nothing at all is mind-blowing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, and I that question is (or should be?) equally troubling for theists and atheists alike. Science can come up with some great solutions for how things work starting at a fraction of a second after the Big Bang occurred. Asking for what caused the Big Bang is more troublesome. Theists can only slightly get around this question, because essentially the question is answered by stating that God created the universe and started the Big Bang (or whatever other Creation story). This of course leads to asking where God came from, a question usually answered with such statements as "He always has existed." I don't feel very comfortable with any of the choices, but I'm slightly more comfortable accepting that an omnipotent being could have always existed (being omnipotent and all).

Sometimes when pondering this question I feel like surely the universe must not exist...

[/ QUOTE ]

sounds very Buddhist's-like. But i agree, i get a very eerie feeling when i start rationalizing that there probably should be nothing at all...

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
The ironic thing is I never heard this worry about hell come up among Christians as much as it does with the atheists on this forum. I'm sure Christians are bound to consider it, but most that I know focus on the love and redemption. I know I noticed hell but in a passing sort of way... I know there's a hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I may summarize then: You know that it is the case that the majority of people who have ever lived will be tortured for eternity after their deaths. However, this is not something that interests or concerns you, and frankly you find the subject quite boring.

[furyshade]

i think "atheist" and "degenerate low life" some how become synonyms when talking about hell. why would god care what you believe or if you worship him if you do what you can to be a good person, tried to help others, and did what was right when you could. i simply cannot imagine that if there is a god, that he would doom so much of the human race to suffering, be it in this world or in some afterlife just so he could make some others feel good.

just you don't think what god said about being a good person came from god doesn't mean you don't believe that the idea of being morally upright and a good person is good.

[MaxWeiss]

[ QUOTE ]
i know most atheists are confident in their belief that there is no God...especially the Christian God.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a pretty fair bet that atheists disbelieve in all gods equally, or close to equally. I don't know why you feel the need to say "especially the Christian god".

That being said, I am as worried about going to hell for not believing as you are worried about it. After all, what if as you say, god is real and did create everything, but he's the god of another religion, and you are wrong and going to hell?

Doesn't that slight chance you are wrong worry you, just a little??

[dwr]

[ QUOTE ]
kurto...read u're reply.

then looked at u're post count, 666(4). loc: in your heart.

coming from someone who did a lot of psychedelics, i see less coincidences and more meanings.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Please do even a little bit of research on the 'number of the beast'.

[Splendour]

Quote : why would god care what you believe or if you worship him


How do we know this isn't part of some higher purpose that we're not privy to. We can't know the mind of God. Maybe God is testing us as worthy vessels. We can't have any cracks and lack of acknowledgment is a crack. A lack of acknowledgment could mean you worship someone else or hold yourself above God. It essentially means you have not declared your loyalty to God and don't recognize his preeminence. You have to wear God's uniform to be on his team. You don't play for the Yankees or the Cubs and say you're not a part of their organization or refuse to wear their uniform. If you're a Cub you say you're a Cub. If you're a beleiver of Christ you say you're a Christian.


In 1 John 5:18 the children of god are given this protection:

The Reality, Not the Illusion
13-15My purpose in writing is simply this: that you who believe in God's Son will know beyond the shadow of a doubt that you have eternal life, the reality and not the illusion. And how bold and free we then become in his presence, freely asking according to his will, sure that he's listening. And if we're confident that he's listening, we know that what we've asked for is as good as ours.
16-17For instance, if we see a Christian believer sinning (clearly I'm not talking about those who make a practice of sin in a way that is "fatal," leading to eternal death), we ask for God's help and he gladly gives it, gives life to the sinner whose sin is not fatal. There is such a thing as a fatal sin, and I'm not urging you to pray about that. Everything we do wrong is sin, but not all sin is fatal.

18-21We know that none of the God-begotten makes a practice of sin—fatal sin. The God-begotten are also the God-protected. The Evil One can't lay a hand on them. We know that we are held firm by God; it's only the people of the world who continue in the grip of the Evil One. And we know that the Son of God came so we could recognize and understand the truth of God—what a gift!—and we are living in the Truth itself, in God's Son, Jesus Christ. This Jesus is both True God and Real Life. Dear children, be on guard against all clever facsimiles.

[tame_deuces]

I like Voodoo. They essentially say there is an all powerful deity, but his power means he is too distant from what he created. So there is lesser beings human can turn to for their everyday needs. They don't have this good/evil crap either, but hold that beings can go both ways.

I don't get the idea of this almighty being pouring people into eternal hell because they did the almighty sin of never having the opportunity to hear about him.

[Splendour]

quote: I don't get the idea of this almighty being pouring people into eternal hell because they did the almighty sin of never having the opportunity to hear about him

You must have missed my 2 posts showing that in the absence of Jesus you're judged on your deeds.

The God of Christians is a forgiving God if you approach him the right way. I doubt he'll tolerate deceit though since he can read human motives.

Look at how he handled this evil King:

2 Chronicles 33 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson



2 Chronicles 33
King Manasseh
1-6Manasseh was twelve years old when he became king. He ruled for fifty-five years in Jerusalem. In God's opinion he was a bad king—an evil king. He reintroduced all the moral rot and spiritual corruption that had been scoured from the country when God dispossessed the pagan nations in favor of the children of Israel. He rebuilt the sex-and-religion shrines that his father Hezekiah had torn down, he built altars and phallic images for the sex god Baal and the sex goddess Asherah and worshiped the cosmic powers, taking orders from the constellations. He built shrines to the cosmic powers and placed them in both courtyards of The Temple of God, the very Jerusalem Temple dedicated exclusively by God's decree to God's Name ("in Jerusalem I place my Name"). He burned his own sons in a sacrificial rite in the Valley of Ben Hinnom. He practiced witchcraft and fortunetelling. He held séances and consulted spirits from the underworld. Much evil—in God's view a career in evil. And God was angry.
7-8 As a last straw he placed a carved image of the sex goddess Asherah that he had commissioned in The Temple of God, a flagrant and provocative violation of God's well-known command to both David and Solomon, "In this Temple and in this city Jerusalem, my choice out of all the tribes of Israel, I place my Name—exclusively and forever." He had promised, "Never again will I let my people Israel wander off from this land I've given to their ancestors. But on this condition, that they keep everything I've commanded in the instructions my servant Moses passed on to them."

9-10 But Manasseh led Judah and the citizens of Jerusalem off the beaten path into practices of evil exceeding even the evil of the pagan nations that God had earlier destroyed. When God spoke to Manasseh and his people about this, they ignored him.

11-13 Then God directed the leaders of the troops of the king of Assyria to come after Manasseh. They put a hook in his nose, shackles on his feet, and took him off to Babylon. Now that he was in trouble, he went to his knees in prayer asking for help—total repentance before the God of his ancestors. As he prayed, God was touched; God listened and brought him back to Jerusalem as king. That convinced Manasseh that God was in control.

14-17 After that Manasseh rebuilt the outside defensive wall of the City of David to the west of the Gihon spring in the valley. It went from the Fish Gate and around the hill of Ophel. He also increased its height. He tightened up the defense system by posting army captains in all the fortress cities of Judah. He also did a good spring cleaning on The Temple, carting out the pagan idols and the goddess statue. He took all the altars he had set up on The Temple hill and throughout Jerusalem and dumped them outside the city. He put the Altar of God back in working order and restored worship, sacrificing Peace-Offerings and Thank-Offerings. He issued orders to the people: "You shall serve and worship God, the God of Israel." But the people didn't take him seriously—they used the name "God" but kept on going to the old pagan neighborhood shrines and doing the same old things.

18-19 The rest of the history of Manasseh—his prayer to his God, and the sermons the prophets personally delivered by authority of God, the God of Israel—this is all written in The Chronicles of the Kings of Israel. His prayer and how God was touched by his prayer, a list of all his sins and the things he did wrong, the actual places where he built the pagan shrines, the installation of the sex-goddess Asherah sites, and the idolatrous images that he worshiped previous to his conversion—this is all described in the records of the prophets.

20 When Manasseh died, they buried him in the palace garden. His son Amon was the next king.

[twonine29]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL. Please do even a little bit of research on the 'number of the beast'.

[/ QUOTE ]

when i'm entrapped in sin, i see the #666 constantly. could just be a psychological thing where i'm keenly aware of it/looking for it...but it's definitly there.

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't that slight chance you are wrong worry you, just a little??

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

[Hopey]

Oh good, Splendour is quoting scripture again.

[Bakes]

But isn't that from the Old Testament? I thought that was before the New Covenant when everything got switched up....before Jesus the path to salvation was different. Are there any passages about Jesus talking about heaven/hell, people who haven't heard the word, and how they will be judged?

[madnak]

No, those are from the New Testament. Mark, Matthew, and Luke - maybe you've heard of them? Most of them are Jesus talking.

[tame_deuces]

Yep, the old testament is closer to classic Judaist beliefs, and in those hell isn't eternal. Actually in those hell isn't mentioned much at all. So basically Christianity wants us to believe it is when God becomes all-loving he starts sending people to eternal torment.

[Bakes]

I'm talking about the Chronicles verses cited two posts up. I'm also debating calling you a [censored] mongoloid for your condescending tone.

[southerndog]

PASCAL'S WAGER!

[StayHungry]

Hell only scares someone ignorant enough to let christian guilt infect their mind. I've pondered hell, and I quickly realise it's somthing not worth thinking about

[StayHungry]

What I mean is, Hell is worthy of some thought, but only in reference to who thought it up. an inquisitive person will discover this and move on

[Splendour]

I also found this bit of scripture that speaks more specifically about voodoo type practices:

Isaiah 8:11

A Boulder Blocking Your Way
11-15God spoke strongly to me, grabbed me with both hands and warned me not to go along with this people. He said:
"Don't be like this people,
always afraid somebody is plotting against them.
Don't fear what they fear.
Don't take on their worries.
If you're going to worry,
worry about The Holy. Fear God-of-the-Angel-Armies.
The Holy can be either a Hiding Place
or a Boulder blocking your way,
The Rock standing in the willful way
of both houses of Israel,
A barbed-wire Fence preventing trespass
to the citizens of Jerusalem.
Many of them are going to run into that Rock
and get their bones broken,
Get tangled up in that barbed wire
and not get free of it."

16-18Gather up the testimony,
preserve the teaching for my followers,
While I wait for God as long as he remains in hiding,
while I wait and hope for him.
I stand my ground and hope,
I and the children God gave me as signs to Israel,
Warning signs and hope signs from God-of-the-Angel-Armies,
who makes his home in Mount Zion.

19-22When people tell you, "Try out the fortunetellers.
Consult the spiritualists.
Why not tap into the spirit-world,
get in touch with the dead?"
Tell them, "No, we're going to study the Scriptures."
People who try the other ways get nowhere—a dead end!
Frustrated and famished,
they try one thing after another.
When nothing works out they get angry,
cursing first this god and then that one,
Looking this way and that,
up, down, and sideways—and seeing nothing,
A blank wall, an empty hole.
They end up in the dark with nothing.

Note that this sounds curiously like what we are suppose to be doing today.

[MaxWeiss]

[ QUOTE ]
I also found this bit of scripture that speaks more specifically about voodoo type practices:

Isaiah 8:11

A Boulder Blocking Your Way
11-15God spoke strongly to me, grabbed me with both hands and warned me not to go along with this people. He said:
"Don't be like this people,
always afraid somebody is plotting against them.
Don't fear what they fear.
Don't take on their worries.
If you're going to worry,
worry about The Holy. Fear God-of-the-Angel-Armies.
The Holy can be either a Hiding Place
or a Boulder blocking your way,
The Rock standing in the willful way
of both houses of Israel,
A barbed-wire Fence preventing trespass
to the citizens of Jerusalem.
Many of them are going to run into that Rock
and get their bones broken,
Get tangled up in that barbed wire
and not get free of it."

16-18Gather up the testimony,
preserve the teaching for my followers,
While I wait for God as long as he remains in hiding,
while I wait and hope for him.
I stand my ground and hope,
I and the children God gave me as signs to Israel,
Warning signs and hope signs from God-of-the-Angel-Armies,
who makes his home in Mount Zion.

19-22When people tell you, "Try out the fortunetellers.
Consult the spiritualists.
Why not tap into the spirit-world,
get in touch with the dead?"
Tell them, "No, we're going to study the Scriptures."
People who try the other ways get nowhere—a dead end!
Frustrated and famished,
they try one thing after another.
When nothing works out they get angry,
cursing first this god and then that one,
Looking this way and that,
up, down, and sideways—and seeing nothing,
A blank wall, an empty hole.
They end up in the dark with nothing.

Note that this sounds curiously like what we are suppose to be doing today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I've always followed the Path of the Beam.

[dragonystic]

the thought doesnt scare this atheist in the least

[vetiver]

I love religious people who believe in hell and get secret pleasure from envisioning atheists burning in hell for not surrendering to their ultimate, illogical truth. The irony is that their omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god would create humans he loved but send them into a world equipped with logic. Logic that serves them well in every aspect of life except the afterlife where they'll suffer for all eternity. Such a tricky god.

[Zagga]

To OP cause I didn't read the other topics

[ QUOTE ]
i know most atheists are confident in their belief that there is no God...especially the Christian God.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not true. Many athiests are not especially against the christian god but that is just the religion they come across most. Or do you imply here that atheists are satanists or that hindustic people (or whatever other religion) are atheists too?
[ QUOTE ]

Does the thought of Hell ever worry you?

What if God really did create the world/create mankind, and decide that each man would have 1 of 2 destines...eternity in bliss or eternity in torment and our time on Earth would determine that. On top of that God decided there would only be one way to spend eternity in bliss(example: Belief in Jesus Christ as your savior). What if we are creations, and we will never cease to exist for the rest of eternity, and the rest of eternity will be spent in one of two places. Doesn't the slight chance that this is possible worry one just a little?


[/ QUOTE ]

This question can be reversed. Does a Christian ever worry about if he has picked the right faith? What says his particulair faith is the one that is really true? Do christians worry if perhaps after they die the muslims were correct and they go to hell becouse they didnt support mohammed? Do they worry that the catholics were correct if they were protestants? Do they worry if they wil reincarnate into a ferret? Wouldn't the slight change of that worry one just a little?

As for me (an atheist), I don't worry at all about hell. I just can't believe in the concept of heaven and hell and even if it does excist, then with quite some religions I would prefer hell simply becouse of some god being so egoistic that he demands people to worship him and only let those in. I wouldn't want to be in a heaven were terrorists are being worshipped with 7 maidens.

EDIT: beside that all, why are there so much theological debates in this forum section?

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: beside that all, why are there so much theological debates in this forum section?

[/ QUOTE ]

As an atheist my only posts about the god fallacy are in response to those that suggest otherwise. The sooner they get off their soapboxes and stay within the boundaries of their churches and homes the quieter I'll become!

[zasterguava]

Christopher Hitchens (an atheist) stated that he would now trust anyone who would not contemplate the existence of God should they be on top of a mountain top looking over some beautiful tropic (something like that anywy,). Well, on that basis he would not trust me; I tend to only marvel at the wanders of nature and dont have it in me to extend this to a supernatural belief.

However, the only time I do contemplate the existence of God is when I think about hell and the horrors that could be leashed upon someone upon their afterlife- and in this sense I am scared by the thought of hell; which is why I am an antitheist. I think this is a good testament that religion appeals to our grimmest emotions, corrupts children and is generally unhealthy. I think Thomas Paine put it best when he said "anything that scares the minds of children can not be true." (even though he's wrong; he's right in regards to religion which is what he was basing this on)