Who is god? (Non religious post)

[hitch1978]

Ok so a couple of posts recently have prompted me to ask a few questions.

Thiests, please suspend your disbelief. This being is not YOUR god. Just as I suspend my disbelief and think of this god I do not believe in, so should you for the purposes of this thread.

A being comes before you, and somehow convinces you that he is capable of anything. He can do some sweet miracles, and certainly appears capable of creating a world or two.

BEFORE he inivitably asks you to do something that goes against your morals, as a test of faith or whatever, who do you assume this being is?

What do you assume his values are? Are they any more moral than your own? Do you consider him good? How good? Why?

[onesandzeros]

Unconditional love. The full circle. But it isn't a "who".

[hitch1978]

Please elaborate - I don't understand. The OP is not a leading question - you do not have to worry about traps.

Also, this being has not come before you and said 'I am god.' or anything. He is not your god from the bible. (If you are a Christian, which I believe you are?)

[bunny]

I wouldnt go so far as to say I'd assume he was God. I'd suspect it though (and would ask him).

Power doesnt itself imply morality, so from what you've written so far, I dont have much clue as to his morals.

[onesandzeros]

[ QUOTE ]
Please elaborate - I don't understand. The OP is not a leading question - you do not have to worry about traps.

Also, this being has not come before you and said 'I am god.' or anything. He is you your god from the bible. (If you are a Christian, which I believe you are?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not religious, rather spiritual. The order behind the chaos is perfect. Call it positive and negative, love and hate, good and bad, god and satan, they are all one and the same. Each is describing the same thing, just different words, perception, images to describe this cause and effect order that makes up everything that is.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
A being comes before you, and somehow convinces you that he is capable of anything. He can do some sweet miracles, and certainly appears capable of creating a world or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's clearly John de Lancie.

[Ajahn]

Hitch,

The imagined god is something that people project their fears and desires onto.


For example:

When there is nobody in your life you can trust your feelings to; not your parents, not your family, not your friends, not anybody, then you're going to imagine an invisible friend who you *can* talk to.


So you're approaching this from a wrong angle. Theists can't possibly think about moral natures of invisible beings because their invisible beings are part of their twisted and destroyed nature.

[vhawk01]

Its my understanding that Lemmy is God.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f242/hoyahawk/Airheads204.jpg

[vhawk01]

Also, this might help:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f242/hoyahawk/stupidfaggotclownstj8.gif

[Sephus]

/images/graemlins/heart.gif the chart

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/heart.gif the chart

[/ QUOTE ]

Quick, what is your favorite part? Mine is that humans power is "very limited" while our knowledge is only "limited."

[onesandzeros]

[ QUOTE ]
The imagined god is something that people project their fears and desires onto.

[/ QUOTE ]

But isnt that exactly what you are doing? Projecting your fears and desires into "what God is"?



[ QUOTE ]
When there is nobody in your life you can trust your feelings to; not your parents, not your family, not your friends, not anybody, then you're going to imagine an invisible friend who you *can* talk to.

[/ QUOTE ]

An invisible friend? Some would say this is "insanity" and I would tend to agree. By feeling the need to "talk through" an "invisible friend" to yourself for support, you are surrendering control to someone/thing else which is quit disrespectful to yourself I think.


[ QUOTE ]
So you're approaching this from a wrong angle.

[/ QUOTE ]

There IS no wrong angle.

[Ajahn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The imagined god is something that people project their fears and desires onto.

[/ QUOTE ]

But isnt that exactly what you are doing? Projecting your fears and desires into "what God is"?



[ QUOTE ]
When there is nobody in your life you can trust your feelings to; not your parents, not your family, not your friends, not anybody, then you're going to imagine an invisible friend who you *can* talk to.

[/ QUOTE ]

An invisible friend? Some would say this is "insanity" and I would tend to agree. By feeling the need to "talk through" an "invisible friend" to yourself for support, you are surrendering control to someone/thing else which is quit disrespectful to yourself I think.


[ QUOTE ]
So you're approaching this from a wrong angle.

[/ QUOTE ]

There IS no wrong angle.

[/ QUOTE ]


WAT?

I'm not religious. I don't have an invisible friend because I have people who I can talk to.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/heart.gif the chart

[/ QUOTE ]

Quick, what is your favorite part? Mine is that humans power is "very limited" while our knowledge is only "limited."

[/ QUOTE ]

definitely "larger than universe" coming after "extradimensional."

[Duke]

If one does as god does enough times, one will become as god is.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c299/krizazy/dolarhyde.jpg

[hitch1978]

Shame, I thought more people would take this seriously.

My point was really related to a bigger picture, prompted by the two recent posts - 'If god contacts me I'll do anything he says', and 'If god contacts me I WONT do anything he says'. How can we judge wether such a creature is moral/more moral than us, etc.

People in those threads made assumptions that they haven't made here.

[madnak]

I do think it's an interesting question, but for me there's not much to say about it. This being obviously understands more than I ever can and has enormous power, so by default I'd throw in with him. I will even believe him if he says "I'm God," because he's working at a level much higher than I can imagine and even if he's wrong doubting him is an exercise in futility. I think that for all intents and purposes, a truly omnipotent being is equivalent to God. Some people might talk about things like whether he deserves credit if he didn't create the universe, but I think it's all irrelevant.

Now, if he were clearly immoral or capriciously cruel I'd still oppose him. That too would be an exercise in futility, and perhaps a feature of my limited intellect, but so be it.

[tame_deuces]

Because it so alien a concept. Honestly I think the first I would do was to see a doctor or look for hidden mirrors.

God is a cultural and semantical concept, and I don't think it can reflect well on some universe-creating entity and its capabilities. It would be like describing the bottom of the mariana trench based on what a shallow puddle of water.

But ok, if I assume I met something I honestly believed was a god I think I would get very scared and wet my pants and then I'd swear eternal allegiance hoping to get something neat like eternal life, power or a glimpse of how the universe ticks in return.

At some point I'd probably wonder if he was one of the 'big kahunas' from the major religions, but that strikes me as incredibly illogical conclusion when thinking about it now.

Ofcourse standing before some all-powerful entity I'd might not think as clearly.

[Archon_Wing]

I simply assume he is a being far more advanced than me; perhaps an alien. But I don't necessarily think I could just deduce his/her/its intentions simply through abilities and power. That is, I have no reason to assume that this being is kind or malicious. And almost certainly the morality of this being will probaly be far different from my own

[hitch1978]

Would people accept the chance of this being a good benevolant god (Similar to the one in the bible in his goodness) and an evil devil (Similar to the one in the bible in his badness) as equal?

If so why? If not why not?

[I do not mean to use the bible as an example, but my lack of ability to concisely put my thoughts forward made it inevitable. If you want to reply with "The god from the bible isn't good! He says 'XXX XXXXX XX XXX....'" Then you've missed the point entirely. Please substitute whatever symbols of good and evil omnipitent beings work for you.]

[Archon_Wing]

I don't think either is more likely. But things are complicated. You may have a being that is can be well meaning but may be prone to bouts of lack of self control, much like the main character in the Bible.

Would insects (if they knew how to think) consider me evil, moody, and irrational when they piss me off? Most likely.

[drzen]

[ QUOTE ]
Shame, I thought more people would take this seriously.

My point was really related to a bigger picture, prompted by the two recent posts - 'If god contacts me I'll do anything he says', and 'If god contacts me I WONT do anything he says'. How can we judge wether such a creature is moral/more moral than us, etc.

People in those threads made assumptions that they haven't made here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cannot judge whether God is moral. You have no standard by which to judge him. This is very difficult for the atheists here to grasp because you hate the cartoon you have painted of God.

The thing is, if God came to you, you would know it. It's not that he would prove it, or you would be able to test him or something. You would just know it.

And wouldn't it suck? To know with certainty something exists but have no means to prove it.

[hitch1978]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shame, I thought more people would take this seriously.

My point was really related to a bigger picture, prompted by the two recent posts - 'If god contacts me I'll do anything he says', and 'If god contacts me I WONT do anything he says'. How can we judge wether such a creature is moral/more moral than us, etc.

People in those threads made assumptions that they haven't made here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cannot judge whether God is moral. You have no standard by which to judge him. This is very difficult for the atheists here to grasp because you hate the cartoon you have painted of God.

The thing is, if God came to you, you would know it. It's not that he would prove it, or you would be able to test him or something. You would just know it.

And wouldn't it suck? To know with certainty something exists but have no means to prove it.

[/ QUOTE ]

How would we know it? How would I diferentiate between god and satan if an almighty being was in front of me? Serious question.

[onesandzeros]

+ or - can you understand that?

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Would people accept the chance of this being a good benevolant god (Similar to the one in the bible in his goodness) and an evil devil (Similar to the one in the bible in his badness) as equal?

If so why? If not why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any reasoning I could use to characterize the motivations of such a being would be ridiculously petty and simplistic, so I think the probability would be about "equal." Not in that the probabilities are actually the same in a mathematical sense, but in that my intuition isn't up to the task. Any suggestion of probability would be arbitrary on my part.

This is true in general, but discussing the probability of God is much easier when he isn't in the room.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
I do think it's an interesting question, but for me there's not much to say about it. This being obviously understands more than I ever can and has enormous power, so by default I'd throw in with him. I will even believe him if he says "I'm God," because he's working at a level much higher than I can imagine and even if he's wrong doubting him is an exercise in futility. I think that for all intents and purposes, a truly omnipotent being is equivalent to God. Some people might talk about things like whether he deserves credit if he didn't create the universe, but I think it's all irrelevant.

Now, if he were clearly immoral or capriciously cruel I'd still oppose him. That too would be an exercise in futility, and perhaps a feature of my limited intellect, but so be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or so you say. I highly doubt you'd do much to oppose an omnipotent being. You might not even want to, but even if you DID want to, this "want" should be no match for Him.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shame, I thought more people would take this seriously.

My point was really related to a bigger picture, prompted by the two recent posts - 'If god contacts me I'll do anything he says', and 'If god contacts me I WONT do anything he says'. How can we judge wether such a creature is moral/more moral than us, etc.

People in those threads made assumptions that they haven't made here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cannot judge whether God is moral. You have no standard by which to judge him. This is very difficult for the atheists here to grasp because you hate the cartoon you have painted of God.

The thing is, if God came to you, you would know it. It's not that he would prove it, or you would be able to test him or something. You would just know it.

And wouldn't it suck? To know with certainty something exists but have no means to prove it.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL if you say so boss.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Or so you say. I highly doubt you'd do much to oppose an omnipotent being. You might not even want to, but even if you DID want to, this "want" should be no match for Him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if he pushed I wouldn't hold out long. But I like to think I'd put up a show of resistance. Or at least think about it.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or so you say. I highly doubt you'd do much to oppose an omnipotent being. You might not even want to, but even if you DID want to, this "want" should be no match for Him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if he pushed I wouldn't hold out long. But I like to think I'd put up a show of resistance. Or at least think about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of omnipotent pussy would even let you think you knew whether he was good or not? Surely he'd be able to dupe you like you were an elderly woman buying shingles.

[madnak]

Yes yes yes, he empties out my brain and fills it with apricot preserves so the whole question's moot.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes yes yes, he empties out my brain and fills it with apricot preserves so the whole question's moot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much. Nice try, satanist.

[Max Raker]

What a stupid thing to say. It would be like a doctor coming up and saying too bad Joe's death was so painful, their last moments must have been pure agony. Even if you know/believe it to be true WTF is the point of saying it?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
What a stupid thing to say. It would be like a doctor coming up and saying too bad Joe's death was so painful, their last moments must have been pure agony. Even if you know/believe it to be true WTF is the point of saying it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong thread?

[Alex-db]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shame, I thought more people would take this seriously.

My point was really related to a bigger picture, prompted by the two recent posts - 'If god contacts me I'll do anything he says', and 'If god contacts me I WONT do anything he says'. How can we judge wether such a creature is moral/more moral than us, etc.

People in those threads made assumptions that they haven't made here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cannot judge whether God is moral. You have no standard by which to judge him. This is very difficult for the atheists here to grasp because you hate the cartoon you have painted of God.

The thing is, if God came to you, you would know it. It's not that he would prove it, or you would be able to test him or something. You would just know it.

And wouldn't it suck? To know with certainty something exists but have no means to prove it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see any reason why the powerful being we just met would be exempt from our judgement, in our own terms of our own construction called 'morality'.

How do you have the power to judge or presuppose that he should be exempt?

(We may of course exempt him from judgement if he makes it clear that judging him (negatively) would be strongly against our interest!)